How Are Catholics Christians?

[Pogo]

Now on those "vain repetitions".... this isn't part of Catholicism (at all, ever) but I have a wacko neighbor up the road who's got the top of the hill and she'll come out periodically and start pacing back and forth on her porch preaching. She's got no audience but she's got a "natural amphitheater" where her voice projects over the whole neighborhood. It's like she has a radio station with no off button. And she'll go into what I've come to learn is called "speaking in tongues", which is nonsense syllables of non-words in between real words.

I'm convinced it's a psychological tactic to keep any rational beings within earshot from getting a word in edgewise.

 

[Pogo]

You seem to be conflating "praying to" and "worshiping". Not the same thing. A prayer is simply a communication. A pretend one, but that's all it is. Who ever said prayers can go only to God?

None of that has anything to do with being Christian. Again, that simply means you follow and believe in Christ. Praying to his mother has zero effect on that. They're simply not related. Not sure where this confusion's coming from.

The rosary? Why does it need to be in the bible? Is the bible supposed to preanticipate everything? Folk masses aren't in there either; it was a manifestation of its time and culture. Same with the rosary. The rosary is simply an instrument -- it's not part of doctrine.

Deuteronomy 13:1 says not to add to or take away from the commandments of Torah [God et al.] If reciting the Rosary as pennace is required by a priest, but isn't from the Bible, it's very much adding to Torah.

That's absurd. For one thing we don't have "torah". For another I don't believe the rosary is given as penance; for a third, once again, it's an instrument. It's not even a prayer; it's a counting device that facilitates prayer. Does it exist in the bible? Who cares?? That's like saying "cars aren't mentioned in the Constitution, therefore driving laws are unconstitutional".

Prayers are reserved for God if you're any sort of God-worshipper (proper "God.") No one else is suitable for worship and prayers but God, that's the first commandment all Christians would be bound to. If you're praying to someone else, especially a mortal, you're absolutely breaking the most important commandment, even according to Jesus. Can try semantic arguements but the world is on my side on this one.

No Jew, Muslim, or Protestant prays to any but God, and the reason is the 1st Commandment.

Sorry, you're full of shit here. You're proclaiming some kind of exclusion that simply does not exist. It says "thou shalt have no other gods". Doesn't say anything about who you can or can't pray to.

And none of this still has anything to do with Christianism. Christianism means believing in Christ. None of that is affected by Mary or the rosary in any way shape or form.

This thread grows incoherent, whirled without end, amen.

 

[The Professor]

It's been over half a century since I received Catholic instructions (I never fully converted) but I know that Mary was never considered to be a deity. This is the most famous of all Catholic appeals to the Virgin:

“Hail Mary full of Grace, the Lord is with thee. Blessed are thou among women and blessed is the fruit of thy womb Jesus. Holy Mary Mother of God, pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death Amen.”

Clearly Mary is not prayed to but is asked to pray for the petitioner. Mary is simply asked to intervene between the sinner and the deity and therefore she cannot have the status of a deity.

 

[Pogo]

It's been over half a century since I received Catholic instructions (I never fully converted) but I know that Mary was never considered to be a deity. This is the most famous of all Catholic appeals to the Virgin:

“Hail Mary full of Grace, the Lord is with thee. Blessed are thou among women and blessed is the fruit of thy womb Jesus. Holy Mary Mother of God, pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death Amen.”

Clearly Mary is not prayed to but is asked to pray for the petitioner. Mary is simply asked to intervene between the sinner and the deity and therefore she cannot have the status of a deity.

Indeed the phrase "the Lord is with thee" makes clear they are two separate entities.

 

[September]

From my perspective- and contrary to popular belief- praying/ communing with a god, or a goddess, or a dead mortal... does not mean that you are "worshipping" them.

For I regularly pray/ commune with multiple gods, and evoke and invoke them with honor and respect... yet I only worship YHWH, in fact, it is part of my devotion to YHWH.

I have prayed to the Dead, and even evoked their spirits to grant me insight and wisdom... but it was not worship.

Praying can equate to worship if you choose to feel as though you are worshipping, but without making the conscious decision to worship whomever it is that you are praying to... it is not worship.

Many humans do in fact pray to Mary as part of their worship and devotion to God.
​

 

[ninja007]

no other petitioner or mediator is needed other than Jesus Christ. Believers go directly to the Father only through Jesus.

 

[ninja007]

1 Timothy 2:5

For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus,

 

[Pogo]

Speaking of "vain repeating", "speaking in tongues" and "programmed robots"....

/thread

 

[Gadawg73]

Catholics follow the teachings of Jesus, love thy neighbor and so on. They are as Christian as any other of the numerous denominations out there.

 

[martybegan]

The question doesn't make sense.

What would the nature of a religious practice have to do with how big the religion is? Would there be some number of followers at which point you have to say "everybody hold up, we got a billion now, we're gonna have to make some changes"....?

Does not follow.

Catholics claim they're Christians. But if they worship people instead of God as evidence by who they're praying to much of the time, that isn't any kind of Christianity I'm familar with. Maybe I've been around Protestants too long, but I'd think if Christian you pray to God, not Mary. Or even Jesus. Why direct a pray to Jesus if you think he's God instead of just "God."

My impression of Catholicism is they're more about things they've added on over time than just the Bible. Again, maybe my Protestant surroundings coloring my impressions, but if you worship God and/or Jesus isn't the Bible supposed to be the beginning and end of that? Where's all this other stuff come into play from? The Rosary for example, where's that in the Bible?

The trinity is worshiped (Father, Son, Holy Spirit), Saints are prayed to and asked for intercession with God, its basically like getting an expediter.

Prayer is not always worship.

 

[Avatar4321]

How are they not? They preach Jesus Christ as the Son of God.

If they aren't Christian, the protestants aren't either. After all, how can you reform a non-Christian Church into a Christian one?

 

[the_human_being]

So back to my OP, if Catholics hardly ever pray to God, but either Mary or Jesus (two people) how is that not something we expect from a small cult and not a billion+ strong religion?

Your OP has already been answered. Christianity denotes a belief in Christ. The very name "Christianity" contains the word "Christ". The folks at Antioch were the first ones recorded in the Bible to be called Christians.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

Watching some local Catholic channels' kids program earlier today, it had some cartoony angels reciting the Rosary and some other things I wasn't familar with. I got to thinking, how is directing prayer to Mary not violating the 1st Commandment? Makes sense if you're a cult, but not the largest Christian denomination in the world, didn't anyone notice?

How is asking a friend to pray for you not violating the fist commandment?

 

[Quantum Windbag]

A related issue, how is penace at confession where you say 12 Hail Marys or whatever not 'vain repetition?' Ever lsiten to people at Mass pray or recite Rosary, it's pretty flat and monotone. Very much 'vainly repeating.'

It is only vain repetition of it doesn't produce a result, can you prove there were no benefits gained by repeating the prayer?

 

[SmedlyButler]

1 Timothy 2:5

For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus,

Yeah but. Doesn't the Catholic Church claim to be able to mediate between man and God as Christ's representative on earth or something? They used to anyway when they sold and granted indulgences for sins didn't they? I've heard indulgences have made a comeback after being out of favor for a while. I read you could be forgiven for the rape of a virgin for $1.75 back when the Popes really worshiped wealth.

"The sale of indulgences was a byproduct of the Crusades in the 12th and 13th centuries. Because they risked dying without the benefit of a priest to perform the appropriate ceremonies, Crusaders were promised immediate salvation if they died while fighting to "liberate" the Christian holy city at Jerusalem. Church leaders justified this by arguing that good works earned salvation, and making Jerusalem accessible to Christians was an example of a good work. Over time, Church leaders decided that paying money to support good works was just as good as performing good works, and it evened things up for people who were physically incapable of fighting a Crusade. Over several centuries, the practice expanded, and Church leaders justified it by arguing that they had inherited an unlimited amount of good works from Jesus, and the credit for these good works could be sold to believers in the form of indulgences. In other words, indulgences functioned like "confession insurance" against eternal damnation because, if you purchased an indulgence, then you wouldn't go to hell if you died suddenly or forgot to confess something.
In later years, the sale of indulgences spread to include forgiveness for the sins of people who were already dead. That is evident in this passage from a sermon by John Tetzel, the monk who sold indulgences in Germany and inspired Martin Luther's protest in 1517.
"Don't you hear the voices of your dead parents and other relatives crying out, "Have mercy on us, for we suffer great punishment and pain. From this, you could release us with a few alms . . . We have created you, fed you, cared for you and left you our temporal goods. Why do you treat us so cruelly and leave us to suffer in the flames, when it takes only a little to save us?"

 

[amrchaos]

How are they not? They preach Jesus Christ as the Son of God.

If they aren't Christian, the protestants aren't either. After all, how can you reform a non-Christian Church into a Christian one?

I agree with your first 2 sentences.

However, the part about "reforming a non-Christian church into a Christian one" Is not what happened. In many ways, Most of the Protestants broke away from the Catholics based on what they percieved as "Non-Christian" teachings. Some of which the OP and others has touched upon.

And yes, considering that the Church is administered by men, It can and at times even need reforming. In fact, I think the Catholic Church has reformed itself numerous of times and in more ways than just doctrinal.

What they teach today is not the exact thing they taught at their beginning. Nor are many of the Early Catholic Church's rituals and interpretations the same or even used. One practice, in which I find most interesting, is their growing use of symbolism.

Looks like the Pope is able to see the future..........

 

[The Irish Ram]

Catholics are Christians because they believe that Christ is our Redeemer. They are some of the most devout people I know, and while you are concerned with dogma, they are concerned with living their lives with Christ in the lead. While you sit here bitching about their doctrine, they are running the food bank this week.
The Catholics I was raised with are wonderful adults. And I love them like family.

There isn't a church out there that has not skewed doctrine. Catholic doctrine is one of the worst. Catholics are some of the best. Heaven is overflowing with them.

If God himself wasn't happy with man being under commands instead of grace, why do we cling to them so? From the 1st, to the 631st. law, (put yourself under one and you are obligated to keep them all) God would rather we hold fast to Him, not rules laid out for a specific group of unruly Jews.

 

[ninja007]

IT doesn't matter how many "good" works you do if you don't recieve Jesus as your Savior.

 

[ninja007]

Most Catholics are not Christians. Most believe in the church to save them, not Jesus alone.

 

[The Irish Ram]

I don't know one of those ninja, though I am sure some do believe that. Most of the ones I know, just go around doing good for others, whoever, where ever without one reference to their denomination or the Pope. And they know Christ personally.

And you are absolutely right about works.
Good works should accompany a new person in Christ. But they have no bearing whatsoever on our salvation. That was accomplished 2,000 years ago for all that wish to partake of Christ's gift.
We are His church. His flawed but forgiven children are His church. Flawed because we are human, forgiven because Christ was faithful to the end, not because we were.