How Are Catholics Christians?

[Delta4Embassy]

Watching some local Catholic channels' kids program earlier today, it had some cartoony angels reciting the Rosary and some other things I wasn't familar with. I got to thinking, how is directing prayer to Mary not violating the 1st Commandment? Makes sense if you're a cult, but not the largest Christian denomination in the world, didn't anyone notice?

 

[Pogo]

Mary has never been called a "god(dess)".

Not by the Church anyway -- now her likeness and a great deal of her legacy has been used to co-opt a previous pagan Goddess (often with literally a new coat of paint) but that's a whole 'nother story, and not one the Church will ever admit to.

I guess bottom line, you don't need to be a deity to get prayed to.

When I was a kid in Catholic school in fact we had an entire organized outdoor big-deal ritual every May called the "May Procession". Everybody, boys and girls, participated in this grand orgy of Marianity. With idols and flower crowns we had to make up, the whole nine yards. Looking back as an adult, though we didn't realize it at the time it was rather pagan:

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To understand Marianity you have to understand the early Church was bending over backward to win converts from the pagans, and as always that meant co-opting the religious/spiritual symbols already familiar to the commoners -- a strong female deity. So to do that you make up the whole "mother of God" script. To win them over.

By the time Protestantism split off, enough time had passed and enough witch-terrorism had been disseminated, that the feminine strain of deification was far enough removed and buried that Lutheranism et al no longer needed the co-optation of it as a sales pitch.

 

[Delta4Embassy]

Mary has never been called a "god(dess)".

Not by the Church anyway -- now her likeness and a great deal of her legacy has been used to co-opt a previous pagan Goddess (often with literally a new coat of paint) but that's a whole 'nother story, and not one the Church will ever admit to.

I guess bottom line, you don't need to be a deity to get prayed to.

There's actually an extinct Catholic sect that worshipped Mary outright. But this thread is about worshipping Mary as a violation of the 1st Commandment. All worship and prayers are supposed to be to God. Not a relative of his, or a human woman. And listening to Catholic prayers, it seems most all their prayers are directed to anyone but God.

 

[Delta4Embassy]

In fairness, some Jewish sects do this too. Chabad-Lubavitchers do it praying rather a lot to a portrait of the Rebbe (founder) of the sect.

 

[Pogo]

But none of that really has to do with being "Christian", which means a believer in Christ. Mary is not mutually exclusive with that.

 

[Pogo]

Mary has never been called a "god(dess)".

Not by the Church anyway -- now her likeness and a great deal of her legacy has been used to co-opt a previous pagan Goddess (often with literally a new coat of paint) but that's a whole 'nother story, and not one the Church will ever admit to.

I guess bottom line, you don't need to be a deity to get prayed to.

There's actually an extinct Catholic sect that worshipped Mary outright. But this thread is about worshipping Mary as a violation of the 1st Commandment. All worship and prayers are supposed to be to God. Not a relative of his, or a human woman. And listening to Catholic prayers, it seems most all their prayers are directed to anyone but God.

Who says all prayers are supposed to be directed to God?

Anyway, if you're looking for logic in the machinations of organized religion, especially one that old, you're in for a very long night. We put those questions to the priests all the time, and inevitably cornered them, whereupon they fall back on "well, it's a mystery..."

Being raised Catholic makes you very good at sniffing out bullshit. Because you do it all day.

 

[Delta4Embassy]

Who says all prayers are supposed to be directed to God?

Anyway, if you're looking for logic in the machinations of organized religion, especially one that old, you're in for a very long night. We put those questions to the priests all the time, and inevitably cornered them, whereupon they fall back on "well, it's a mystery..."

Being raised Catholic makes you very good at sniffing out bullshit. Because you do it all day.

Excluding Jews and Muslims, Jesus comes to mind.

"When Jesus taught his disciples how they ought to pray in Matthew 6:9-13 he instructed them to pray to “Our Father in heaven.”

9Pray then like this: “Our Father in heaven, hallowed be your name. 10 Your kingdom come, your will be done, on earth as it is in heaven. 11Give us this day our daily bread, 12and forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors. 13And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil.

So it was Jesus Himself, God in flesh (John 1:1-14), who told us that we should raise our prayers directly to God, namely, God the Father. The Bible teaches that God has existed eternally as one being in three persons, Father, Son and Holy Spirit. This doctrine is known as the Trinity. This is why Jesus can both be God and still pray to God (e.g. John 17) because while they share the same being they are different in person."
When we are praying do we pray directly to God or through Jesus Christian Apologetics and Research Ministry

Never said "pray to my earthly mother."

 

[Delta4Embassy]

So back to my OP, if Catholics hardly ever pray to God, but either Mary or Jesus (two people) how is that not something we expect from a small cult and not a billion+ strong religion?

 

[Pogo]

Who says all prayers are supposed to be directed to God?

Anyway, if you're looking for logic in the machinations of organized religion, especially one that old, you're in for a very long night. We put those questions to the priests all the time, and inevitably cornered them, whereupon they fall back on "well, it's a mystery..."

Being raised Catholic makes you very good at sniffing out bullshit. Because you do it all day.

Excluding Jews and Muslims, Jesus comes to mind.

"When Jesus taught his disciples how they ought to pray in Matthew 6:9-13 he instructed them to pray to “Our Father in heaven.”

9Pray then like this: “Our Father in heaven, hallowed be your name. 10 Your kingdom come, your will be done, on earth as it is in heaven. 11Give us this day our daily bread, 12and forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors. 13And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil.

So it was Jesus Himself, God in flesh (John 1:1-14), who told us that we should raise our prayers directly to God, namely, God the Father. The Bible teaches that God has existed eternally as one being in three persons, Father, Son and Holy Spirit. This doctrine is known as the Trinity. This is why Jesus can both be God and still pray to God (e.g. John 17) because while they share the same being they are different in person."
When we are praying do we pray directly to God or through Jesus Christian Apologetics and Research Ministry

Never said "pray to my earthly mother."

Where does it say "only" in there?

 

[Rikurzhen]

Mary has never been called a "god(dess)".

Not by the Church anyway -- now her likeness and a great deal of her legacy has been used to co-opt a previous pagan Goddess (often with literally a new coat of paint) but that's a whole 'nother story, and not one the Church will ever admit to.

I guess bottom line, you don't need to be a deity to get prayed to.

There's actually an extinct Catholic sect that worshipped Mary outright. But this thread is about worshipping Mary as a violation of the 1st Commandment. All worship and prayers are supposed to be to God. Not a relative of his, or a human woman. And listening to Catholic prayers, it seems most all their prayers are directed to anyone but God.

Who says all prayers are supposed to be directed to God?

Anyway, if you're looking for logic in the machinations of organized religion, especially one that old, you're in for a very long night. We put those questions to the priests all the time, and inevitably cornered them, whereupon they fall back on "well, it's a mystery..."

Being raised Catholic makes you very good at sniffing out bullshit. Because you do it all day.

I seriously doubt that. Priests and the skeptics within their flocks are like cops and robbers. Cops have vast institutional knowledge and they keep plugging away at trying to solve crimes and can make many mistakes as individuals, whereas for the robber the first mistake they make gets them arrested.

The Catholic Church has had two thousand years, give or take a few centuries, to keep hammering away at these issues and to find answers for them. The skeptic usually comes up with questions on the spur of the moment. Back in early history some of the brightest thinkers were priests and they applied their brain power to creating explanations.

Any question a skeptic has the Catholic Church has a corresponding answer and it's not "it's a mystery." Even if it's "why did God allow little, sweet baby Jane to die in the house fire" and the answer is that God wanted her by his side in a better place than Earth where she will be happier. There's always a more detailed answer than "the ways of God are mysterious, my child."

Having an answer doesn't mean it's true, but they've got all the answers to all the questions. That's what having a millennium to think about these issues buys them. Some kid in Sunday School is not going to stump a learned priest.

 

[Delta4Embassy]

A related issue, how is penace at confession where you say 12 Hail Marys or whatever not 'vain repetition?' Ever lsiten to people at Mass pray or recite Rosary, it's pretty flat and monotone. Very much 'vainly repeating.'

 

[Pogo]

So back to my OP, if Catholics hardly ever pray to God, but either Mary or Jesus (two people) how is that not something we expect from a small cult and not a billion+ strong religion?

The question doesn't make sense.

What would the nature of a religious practice have to do with how big the religion is? Would there be some number of followers at which point you have to say "everybody hold up, we got a billion now, we're gonna have to make some changes"....?

Does not follow.

 

[Pogo]

A related issue, how is penace at confession where you say 12 Hail Marys or whatever not 'vain repetition?' Ever lsiten to people at Mass pray or recite Rosary, it's pretty flat and monotone. Very much 'vainly repeating.'

"penance"

It very much can be flat and monotone, and if you hear it droning from a bunch of programmed robots followers over the shortwave radio it's damned eerie. Gives you a bone-chilling impression of unthinking groupthink.

But where are you pulling this "vainly repeating" jazz from? I've never heard that phrase before.

If there's one thing that pervades Catholic thought (and teaching methods), it is very much van and endless repetition.

That's got nothing to do with inflection though. "Flat and monotone" is what garbages out from programed robots who have had all the character, feeling and vitality stripped out of what they're doing. There's nothing left but the literal words. All lyrics, no music, so to speak.

 

[Delta4Embassy]

The question doesn't make sense.

What would the nature of a religious practice have to do with how big the religion is? Would there be some number of followers at which point you have to say "everybody hold up, we got a billion now, we're gonna have to make some changes"....?

Does not follow.

Catholics claim they're Christians. But if they worship people instead of God as evidence by who they're praying to much of the time, that isn't any kind of Christianity I'm familar with. Maybe I've been around Protestants too long, but I'd think if Christian you pray to God, not Mary. Or even Jesus. Why direct a pray to Jesus if you think he's God instead of just "God."

My impression of Catholicism is they're more about things they've added on over time than just the Bible. Again, maybe my Protestant surroundings coloring my impressions, but if you worship God and/or Jesus isn't the Bible supposed to be the beginning and end of that? Where's all this other stuff come into play from? The Rosary for example, where's that in the Bible?

 

[Delta4Embassy]

"penance"

It very much can be flat and monotone, and if you hear it droning from a bunch of programmed robots followers over the shortwave radio it's damned eerie. Gives you a bone-chilling impression of unthinking groupthink.

But where are you pulling this "vainly repeating" jazz from? I've never heard that phrase before.

If there's one thing that pervades Catholic thought (and teaching methods), it is very much van and endless repetition.

That's got nothing to do with inflection though. "Flat and monotone" is what garbages out from programed robots who have had all the character, feeling and vitality stripped out of what they're doing. There's nothing left but the literal words. All lyrics, no music, so to speak.

Jesus says in Matthew (yes Virginia, I have read the NT heh) "...And when you pray, do not do as the hypocrites [Jews] do with vain repetitions..."

 

[Delta4Embassy]

"...loudly and in public with vain repetitions..." rather.

 

[Pogo]

The question doesn't make sense.

What would the nature of a religious practice have to do with how big the religion is? Would there be some number of followers at which point you have to say "everybody hold up, we got a billion now, we're gonna have to make some changes"....?

Does not follow.

Catholics claim they're Christians. But if they worship people instead of God as evidence by who they're praying to much of the time, that isn't any kind of Christianity I'm familar with. Maybe I've been around Protestants too long, but I'd think if Christian you pray to God, not Mary. Or even Jesus. Why direct a pray to Jesus if you think he's God instead of just "God."

My impression of Catholicism is they're more about things they've added on over time than just the Bible. Again, maybe my Protestant surroundings coloring my impressions, but if you worship God and/or Jesus isn't the Bible supposed to be the beginning and end of that? Where's all this other stuff come into play from? The Rosary for example, where's that in the Bible?

You seem to be conflating "praying to" and "worshiping". Not the same thing. A prayer is simply a communication. A pretend one, but that's all it is. Who ever said prayers can go only to God?

None of that has anything to do with being Christian. Again, that simply means you follow and believe in Christ. Praying to his mother has zero effect on that. They're simply not related. Not sure where this confusion's coming from.

The rosary? Why does it need to be in the bible? Is the bible supposed to preanticipate everything? Folk masses aren't in there either; it was a manifestation of its time and culture. Same with the rosary. The rosary is simply an instrument -- it's not part of doctrine.

 

[Pogo]

"...loudly and in public with vain repetitions..." rather.

Never heard of it.

So what? What does it even mean?

 

[Rikurzhen]

The question doesn't make sense.

What would the nature of a religious practice have to do with how big the religion is? Would there be some number of followers at which point you have to say "everybody hold up, we got a billion now, we're gonna have to make some changes"....?

Does not follow.

Catholics claim they're Christians. But if they worship people instead of God as evidence by who they're praying to much of the time, that isn't any kind of Christianity I'm familar with. Maybe I've been around Protestants too long, but I'd think if Christian you pray to God, not Mary. Or even Jesus. Why direct a pray to Jesus if you think he's God instead of just "God."

My impression of Catholicism is they're more about things they've added on over time than just the Bible. Again, maybe my Protestant surroundings coloring my impressions, but if you worship God and/or Jesus isn't the Bible supposed to be the beginning and end of that? Where's all this other stuff come into play from? The Rosary for example, where's that in the Bible?

Your premise doesn't even make sense. It's like arguing that a branch you cut off from a tree is the tree and that the rest of the tree is really a shrub.

Protestantism is the child of Catholicism. How can Protestantism be Christian without Catholicism also qualifying. Everything that Protestantism knows about God and Jesus arises from the Catholic Church's store of biblical knowledge. There were no Protestants around back in Roman-era Jerusalem.

 

[Delta4Embassy]

You seem to be conflating "praying to" and "worshiping". Not the same thing. A prayer is simply a communication. A pretend one, but that's all it is. Who ever said prayers can go only to God?

None of that has anything to do with being Christian. Again, that simply means you follow and believe in Christ. Praying to his mother has zero effect on that. They're simply not related. Not sure where this confusion's coming from.

The rosary? Why does it need to be in the bible? Is the bible supposed to preanticipate everything? Folk masses aren't in there either; it was a manifestation of its time and culture. Same with the rosary. The rosary is simply an instrument -- it's not part of doctrine.

Deuteronomy 13:1 says not to add to or take away from the commandments of Torah [God et al.] If reciting the Rosary as pennace is required by a priest, but isn't from the Bible, it's very much adding to Torah.

Prayers are reserved for God if you're any sort of God-worshipper (proper "God.") No one else is suitable for worship and prayers but God, that's the first commandment all Christians would be bound to. If you're praying to someone else, especially a mortal, you're absolutely breaking the most important commandment, even according to Jesus. Can try semantic arguements but the world is on my side on this one.

No Jew, Muslim, or Protestant prays to any but God, and the reason is the 1st Commandment.