Holy Crap Tine E, look at the Antarctic Sea Ice Extent!

[ScienceRocks]

Yeah... not a chance

Chart proves AGW is a fraud and the AGWCult is a mindless group of zombies.

Where was the "Warming" before it got to 700M?

Hmm? It wasn't above it

Think of the +- phases of the enso and how they effect global avg temperature. There's kind of your answer as the larger scale pdo is being researched for the pause.

 

[Abraham3]

And why do you think it's doing that?

Not because the place is getting any colder. Perhaps because of a warmer ocean surrounding the place.

So you just failed to show significant warming of the Antarctic Oceans.. Why dont you go for the 2-fer and also fail to show the increased Antarctic precipt??????

With the two graphs I've posted, I've shown that the oceans - in toto - are warming, and that the Antarctic is not getting colder. The HadCRUT graph is air temperature, not sea.

 

[Abraham3]

Yeah... not a chance

Chart proves AGW is a fraud and the AGWCult is a mindless group of zombies.

Where was the "Warming" before it got to 700M?

Hmm? It wasn't above it

Do you remember when I brought up a link to thermohaline circulation to you in answer to this very same question? You said it was bullshit. Well... guess what?

However, let me add that there also exists a process in which wind pushes water against a coastline such as California's or Japan's or Norway's where deep water exists close to shore. The water is simply driven downward in a bit of a pseudo convection cell. There are multiple ways in which ocean water circulates in the vertical. Conduction is not the only mean of heat transfer.

Regarding thermohaline circulation, Frank, are you familiar with the density of water does as it approaches its freezing point? Well, like every other substance, it's density increases with decreasing temperature. Unlike every other one (of which I've ever heard), the shape of water's molecule and the arrangement they take upon freezing, causes its density to start decreasing as it passes 4C. This is why ice floats. If water did not do this, this planet would have been an ice cube for the last 3.5 billion years and there would be no life here.

So, at the poles, when water gets chilled to 4C, it sinks. It will sink all the way to the bottom. The water at the bottom of the oceans is essentially universally at 4C because that is the peak of its density/temperature curve. Water that is warmer or colder than that rises.

 

[flacaltenn]

And why do you think it's doing that?

Not because the place is getting any colder. Perhaps because of a warmer ocean surrounding the place.

So you just failed to show significant warming of the Antarctic Oceans.. Why dont you go for the 2-fer and also fail to show the increased Antarctic precipt??????

With the two graphs I've posted, I've shown that the oceans - in toto - are warming, and that the Antarctic is not getting colder. The HadCRUT graph is air temperature, not sea.

I posted the sea temps a week ago. And there is no significant warming there either. Precipt is so rare, you cant even find good data. The idea that this ice was predicted because of warmer seas and more precipt is total bunk.. Unless you show the warmer seas and the increased precipt. Is that too complicated for you and Mammy and Princess BigFont?

 

[Abraham3]

Study: Antarctic ice shelf melt tied to warmer seas - Technology & science - Science - OurAmazingPlanet | NBC News

Antarctic Glacier Melting Linked to Warm Pacific Waters | Antarctica Ice melting, Antarctica Global Warming Effects | Pine Island Glacier Crack, Antarctica Glaciers | LiveScience

Try these.

 

[flacaltenn]

Study: Antarctic ice shelf melt tied to warmer seas - Technology & science - Science - OurAmazingPlanet | NBC News

Antarctic Glacier Melting Linked to Warm Pacific Waters | Antarctica Ice melting, Antarctica Global Warming Effects | Pine Island Glacier Crack, Antarctica Glaciers | LiveScience

Try these.

NBC news??? SERIOUSLY? Iposted sea temps around PIGlacier.. They are NOT getting warmer ON AVERAGE.. This could be one of those MYRIAD of cases where a yearly AVERAGE --- aint worth nutting... Show us the INCREASED sea temps off Antarctica AND the increased precipt that caused this ice...,. Probably only 2 months where its warm enough to precipt anyway......

 

[SwimExpert]

Study: Antarctic ice shelf melt tied to warmer seas - Technology & science - Science - OurAmazingPlanet | NBC News

Antarctic Glacier Melting Linked to Warm Pacific Waters | Antarctica Ice melting, Antarctica Global Warming Effects | Pine Island Glacier Crack, Antarctica Glaciers | LiveScience

Try these.

Nothing therein supports anything you've said.

 

[Abraham3]

From the latter article: "Warmer-than-usual sea-surface temperatures, especially in the central tropics, lead to changes in atmospheric circulation that influence conditions near the Antarctic coastline. Namely, a higher-than-normal sea-level pressure north of the Amundsen Sea sets up westerly winds that push surface water away from the glaciers and allow warmer deep water to rise to the surface under the edges of the glaciers, Steig said in a statement."

From the former: "Using NASA's ICESat satellite, the researchers closely monitored how the thickness of West and East Antarctica's ice changed over time. In some cases, Pritchard said, shelves thinned by as much as several meters each year. And the pattern of that melting, he added, suggested that at least 20 out of 54 observed platforms of ice across the continent were being melted largely by the oceans below, much like a warm drink consuming ice cubes."

 

[flacaltenn]

From the latter article: "Warmer-than-usual sea-surface temperatures, especially in the central tropics, lead to changes in atmospheric circulation that influence conditions near the Antarctic coastline. Namely, a higher-than-normal sea-level pressure north of the Amundsen Sea sets up westerly winds that push surface water away from the glaciers and allow warmer deep water to rise to the surface under the edges of the glaciers, Steig said in a statement."

From the former: "Using NASA's ICESat satellite, the researchers closely monitored how the thickness of West and East Antarctica's ice changed over time. In some cases, Pritchard said, shelves thinned by as much as several meters each year. And the pattern of that melting, he added, suggested that at least 20 out of 54 observed platforms of ice across the continent were being melted largely by the oceans below, much like a warm drink consuming ice cubes."

Thats a pretty weak excuse for increased precipt causing the ice sea increase dontcha think? Weather needs more than a shoreline efffect to cause precipt. And warmth in the tropics aint likely the excuse. So spare me prediction of increased AArctic sea ice based on conditions that havent occurred....

You seem to be confused here between warmth that causes ice to melt versus the warmth that causes sea ice to build...

 

[SwimExpert]

From the latter article: "Warmer-than-usual sea-surface temperatures, especially in the central tropics, lead to changes in atmospheric circulation that influence conditions near the Antarctic coastline. Namely, a higher-than-normal sea-level pressure north of the Amundsen Sea sets up westerly winds that push surface water away from the glaciers and allow warmer deep water to rise to the surface under the edges of the glaciers, Steig said in a statement."

From the former: "Using NASA's ICESat satellite, the researchers closely monitored how the thickness of West and East Antarctica's ice changed over time. In some cases, Pritchard said, shelves thinned by as much as several meters each year. And the pattern of that melting, he added, suggested that at least 20 out of 54 observed platforms of ice across the continent were being melted largely by the oceans below, much like a warm drink consuming ice cubes."

Thats a pretty weak excuse for increased precipt causing the ice sea increase dontcha think? Weather needs more than a shoreline efffect to cause precipt. And warmth in the tropics aint likely the excuse. So spare me prediction of increased AArctic sea ice based on conditions that havent occurred....

You seem to be confused here between warmth that causes ice to melt versus the warmth that causes sea ice to build...

But I thought if a butterfly flaps its wings in Africa it causes typhoons in Hawaii.

 

[Abraham3]

FCT, while the predictions for many years have said warmer oceans would increase precipitation in Antarctica, it hasn't happened and I've not said it has. I still believe that eventually it will, but that's neither here nor there. Currently, I am disputing your contention that the Southern Ocean has not warmed.

I believe that winter sea ice extents have expanded due in part to thinning allowing physical expansion and to accelerated glacial flows. There most certainly is no evidence that either the land or the seas there have grown significantly colder and that even if there has been some decrease in temperature, it hardly qualifies as a refutation of AGW.

 

[Abraham3]

From the latter article: "Warmer-than-usual sea-surface temperatures, especially in the central tropics, lead to changes in atmospheric circulation that influence conditions near the Antarctic coastline. Namely, a higher-than-normal sea-level pressure north of the Amundsen Sea sets up westerly winds that push surface water away from the glaciers and allow warmer deep water to rise to the surface under the edges of the glaciers, Steig said in a statement."

From the former: "Using NASA's ICESat satellite, the researchers closely monitored how the thickness of West and East Antarctica's ice changed over time. In some cases, Pritchard said, shelves thinned by as much as several meters each year. And the pattern of that melting, he added, suggested that at least 20 out of 54 observed platforms of ice across the continent were being melted largely by the oceans below, much like a warm drink consuming ice cubes."

Thats a pretty weak excuse for increased precipt causing the ice sea increase dontcha think? Weather needs more than a shoreline efffect to cause precipt. And warmth in the tropics aint likely the excuse. So spare me prediction of increased AArctic sea ice based on conditions that havent occurred....

You seem to be confused here between warmth that causes ice to melt versus the warmth that causes sea ice to build...

But I thought if a butterfly flaps its wings in Africa it causes typhoons in Hawaii.

I thought you might like to hear the origin of that line:

Edward Norton Lorenz - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Norton re-ran a climate model run, inputting parameters he'd stored the night before to something like ten decimal places. The model run went in a completely different direction due, as it turned out, to the minute differences in the internal values the model was using and the values he'd stored.

BTW, the applicability of your comment to the discussion seems to be nil. But perhaps I'm confused. Are you rejecting Chaos Theory?

 

[flacaltenn]

FCT, while the predictions for many years have said warmer oceans would increase precipitation in Antarctica, it hasn't happened and I've not said it has. I still believe that eventually it will, but that's neither here nor there. Currently, I am disputing your contention that the Southern Ocean has not warmed.

I believe that winter sea ice extents have expanded due in part to thinning allowing physical expansion and to accelerated glacial flows. There most certainly is no evidence that either the land or the seas there have grown significantly colder and that even if there has been some decrease in temperature, it hardly qualifies as a refutation of AGW.

 

[flacaltenn]

FCT, while the predictions for many years have said warmer oceans would increase precipitation in Antarctica, it hasn't happened and I've not said it has. I still believe that eventually it will, but that's neither here nor there. Currently, I am disputing your contention that the Southern Ocean has not warmed.

I believe that winter sea ice extents have expanded due in part to thinning allowing physical expansion and to accelerated glacial flows. There most certainly is no evidence that either the land or the seas there have grown significantly colder and that even if there has been some decrease in temperature, it hardly qualifies as a refutation of AGW.

Pretty lazy of you to doubt, when you should be proving your assertions.
The only thing that needs refutation today is that the GW braintrust predicted this ice growth and the mechanisms for it.

 

[flacaltenn]

BTW,,, Dont bother with crayon edited graph from skepticalscience.. Already started a new hernia chuckling over that lie........

 

[Abraham3]

BTW,,, Dont bother with crayon edited graph from skepticalscience.. Already started a new hernia chuckling over that lie........

Just out of curiosity, what was the source of your crayon-edited graph?

 

[ScienceRocks]

It shouldn't be skeptical science doing the work of the noaa.

what a sick joke.

 

[westwall]

It shouldn't be skeptical science doing the work of the noaa.

what a sick joke.

Well, as skeptical science does no science, they're not.

 

[flacaltenn]

BTW,,, Dont bother with crayon edited graph from skepticalscience.. Already started a new hernia chuckling over that lie........

Just out of curiosity, what was the source of your crayon-edited graph?

The study it came from is right there on the chart.. Please let me know if its been adulterated in any way.. I will apologize AND be appalled.. Which would be the APPROPRIATE reactions to such evidence. Instead of DENYING it or defending the corrupt source of the crayoning...

 

[Abraham3]

The global data from the same source.

And mind you the theorized process is that offshore winds are pulling warm, deep water up under the ice sheet. The ice sheets are not being thinned by surface waters so the theory does not contend warming of the Southern Oceans surface waters - though the graph above certainly shows it will take place eventually.

http://nomad1.ncep.noaa.gov/cgi-bin/pdisp_sst.sh