Heated disagreement breaks out in Situation Room over hydroxychloroquine, Navarro vs Fauci

[Rigby5]

Side effects from hydroxychloroquine are really very minimal. It’s used as first line in Lupus and rheumatoid arthritis specifically because it’s so benign.

The people listing what is on the packet insert really don’t know what they’re talking about.

Wrong.
The way hydroxychloroquine works is by REDUCING the immune response from the body.
That is because sometimes the immune response is worse then the infection, and is what is killing you.
But if you are not in that dire state, then taking an immune response inhibitor is a really, really BAD idea.
If you are not on the verge of death from a high fever, then taking hydroxychloroquine is likely to greatly increase the spread of COVID-19 in your body.

Hydroxychloroquine has been proven to cause pneumonia for example.

https://www.jacionline.org/article/S0091-6749(05)03402-0/fulltext

{...
CONCLUSIONS: Hydroxychloroquine exerts its effect on the immune system by decreasing lymphocyte proliferation and pro-inflammatory cytokines such as TNF-alpha. These are potential mechanisms that can render a host susceptible to infections such as pneumonia. This patient had evidence of selective IgG2 deficiency that correlated with administration of hydroxychloroquine. This is a previously unrecognized alteration of the humoral immune system by this medication.
...}

Hydroxychloroquine is NEVER a first choice treatment, and always has high potential risk.
Sure it is used for Lyme Disease, Lupus, etc., but that is because nothing else works at all for those, and Hydroxychloroquine is a very long shot. No one would ever say Hydroxychloroquine is benign.
It simply is not.
It is a strong immune system inhibitor, which is always very risky to take.

Well, I’ve prescribed it a lot and that’s because it is pretty benign. Far more benign than the alternatives for lupus for example.

It doesn’t cause pneumonia, it just makes one more susceptible, but the overall risk is low. I agree it shouldn’t be used on ambulatory people, and would never use it as such, but for people sick enough to be hospitalized with known COVID, it is used.

Correct.
Normally there is not much risk from an immune system response inhibiter.
And it if very good if there is an inappropriate or extreme immune system response, like Lupus.
And yes it does not cause pneumonia, but only makes pneumonia more likely, slightly.
Which normally is no problem, but can be a huge problem with those with COVID-19, who already are at greater pneumonia risk.
However, once a person is near dying, there is no reason to not try all sorts of things.
It is just that Hydroxychloroquine is only logical to prescribe if the patient's main problem is an out of control fever.

 

[HappyJoy]

Hydroxychloroquine, sold as Plaquenil, is a very safe drug. It has been in use with many malaria, lupus and rheumatoid arthritis patients for decades. The question is whether it is effective against COVID-19. It might help to take a step back and look at terminology:

"Anecdotal evidence," in science, means evidence of an outcome not covered in a repeatable trial. It doesn't mean "out of left field," and the casual use of anecdotal evidence to indicate something with less credibility than a rumor isn't the same thing. Chloroquine is a toxic substance used to treat drug-resistant malaria cases, as a preferred alternative to letting the patient die. It is also used in fish tank cleaners. Not the same thing as hydroxychloroquine.

Medicine is the most primitive of our sciences, and one reason is that it is part science, part art. When science fails, the physician is left with art. When chemoradiation failed with my bladder cancer, my oncologist and I discussed alternatives. He had read the preliminary literature on a drug used for other purposes which he felt might work on my cancer; I read the material and concurred. I was recently discharged as cancer-free. Sometimes, when science cannot give a physician the answers he wants to have, the physician has to turn to art. What has worked under what circumstances with what kinds of patients with what symptoms in the past, and is there evidence of success in situations similar to those involving me and this patient? If the choices are between near-certain death and using a safe pill that will probably work, a physician's choice is pretty clear. That does not mean the physician believes that the drug has been proven effective to the gold standard of success in multiple repeatable trials. Thousands of physicians around the world treating hundreds of thousands of patients are prescribing hydroxychloroquine wearing their "artist" hat, not their "scientist" hat.

In the 1980s, after medical school, I was practicing psychiatry in Europe and became aware that manic-depressive patients, now called bipolar, were getting relief from use of anticonvulsants. I read the limited literature, talked with pharmacists and neurologists, and concluded that anticonvulsants were worth a try, because the alternative was antipsychotics, all of which had serious, bad side-effects. I explained my rationale to my patients, and prescribed the safest, oldest, anticonvulsants I could find for some bipolar patients. Today, anticonvulsants are proven to work in patients with bipolar disorder. The oath I took begins "First, do no harm." It does not begin, "First, do nothing."

Not really disagreeing much except that Plaquenil is not really benign and does have lots of potential and risky side effects. The only advantage with COVID-19 is to treat when the fever has become severe, and it is only for the fever that Planquenil is useful.

{...
Plaquenil Side Effects
...
Check with your doctor immediately if any of the following side effects occur while taking hydroxychloroquine:
Incidence not known

• Blistering, peeling, loosening of the skin
• blurred vision or other vision changes
• chest discomfort, pain, or tightness
• cough or hoarseness
• dark urine
• decreased urination
• defective color vision
• diarrhea
• difficulty breathing
• difficulty seeing at night
• dizziness or fainting
• fast, pounding, uneven heartbeat
• feeling that others are watching you or controlling your behavior
• feeling that others can hear your thoughts
• feeling, seeing, or hearing things that are not there
• fever with or without chills
• general feeling of tiredness or weakness
• headache
• inability to move the eyes
• increased blinking or spasms of the eyelid
• joint or muscle pain
• large, hive-like swelling on the face, eyelids, lips, tongue, throat, hands, legs, feet, and sex organs
• loss of hearing
• lower back or side pain
• noisy breathing
• painful or difficult urination
• red irritated eyes
• red skin lesions, often with a purple center
• severe mood or mental changes
• sore throat sores, ulcers, or white spots on the lips or in the mouth
• sticking out of the tongue
• stomach pain
• swelling of the feet or lower legs
• swollen or painful glands
• trouble with breathing, speaking, or swallowing
• uncontrolled twisting movements of the neck, trunk, arms, or legs
• unusual behavior
• unusual bleeding or bruising
• unusual facial expressions
• unusual tiredness or weakness
• yellow eyes or skin

...}

Those are more extreme than the typical side effects of most drugs.

Here are the side effects of Metformin, a drug I take:

• Abdominal or stomach discomfort
• cough or hoarseness
• decreased appetite
• diarrhea
• fast or shallow breathing
• fever or chills
• general feeling of discomfort
• lower back or side pain
• muscle pain or cramping
• painful or difficult urination
• sleepiness
• Anxiety
• blurred vision
• chest discomfort
• cold sweats
• coma
• confusion
• cool, pale skin
• depression
• difficult or labored breathing
• dizziness
• fast, irregular, pounding, or racing heartbeat or pulse
• feeling of warmth
• headache
• increased hunger
• increased sweating
• nausea
• nervousness
• nightmares
• redness of the face, neck, arms, and occasionally, upper chest
• seizures
• shakiness
• slurred speech
• tightness in the chest
• unusual tiredness or weakness
• Behavior change similar to being drunk
• difficulty with concentrating
• drowsiness
• lack or loss of strength
• restless sleep
• unusual sleepiness

Explains a lot, knew your fat ass was diabetic.

 

[Fort Fun Indiana]

It will take far longer than years for this drug to be scientifically proven to be effective against covid 19.

Not true. You simply don't know what you are talking about and are pulling things right out of your ass.

Most of the human testing done on drugs is for safety. We already know many of the dangers of this drug, which greatly reduces or eliminates that process. What scientists are looking for is a string signal of efficacy, and you can get that from a study of 1400 people, as is happening right now.

 

[colfax_m]

Side effects from hydroxychloroquine are really very minimal. It’s used as first line in Lupus and rheumatoid arthritis specifically because it’s so benign.

The people listing what is on the packet insert really don’t know what they’re talking about.

Wrong.
The way hydroxychloroquine works is by REDUCING the immune response from the body.
That is because sometimes the immune response is worse then the infection, and is what is killing you.
But if you are not in that dire state, then taking an immune response inhibitor is a really, really BAD idea.
If you are not on the verge of death from a high fever, then taking hydroxychloroquine is likely to greatly increase the spread of COVID-19 in your body.

Hydroxychloroquine has been proven to cause pneumonia for example.

https://www.jacionline.org/article/S0091-6749(05)03402-0/fulltext

{...
CONCLUSIONS: Hydroxychloroquine exerts its effect on the immune system by decreasing lymphocyte proliferation and pro-inflammatory cytokines such as TNF-alpha. These are potential mechanisms that can render a host susceptible to infections such as pneumonia. This patient had evidence of selective IgG2 deficiency that correlated with administration of hydroxychloroquine. This is a previously unrecognized alteration of the humoral immune system by this medication.
...}

Hydroxychloroquine is NEVER a first choice treatment, and always has high potential risk.
Sure it is used for Lyme Disease, Lupus, etc., but that is because nothing else works at all for those, and Hydroxychloroquine is a very long shot. No one would ever say Hydroxychloroquine is benign.
It simply is not.
It is a strong immune system inhibitor, which is always very risky to take.

Well, I’ve prescribed it a lot and that’s because it is pretty benign. Far more benign than the alternatives for lupus for example.

It doesn’t cause pneumonia, it just makes one more susceptible, but the overall risk is low. I agree it shouldn’t be used on ambulatory people, and would never use it as such, but for people sick enough to be hospitalized with known COVID, it is used.

Correct.
Normally there is not much risk from an immune system response inhibiter.
And it if very good if there is an inappropriate or extreme immune system response, like Lupus.
And yes it does not cause pneumonia, but only makes pneumonia more likely, slightly.
Which normally is no problem, but can be a huge problem with those with COVID-19, who already are at greater pneumonia risk.
However, once a person is near dying, there is no reason to not try all sorts of things.
It is just that Hydroxychloroquine is only logical to prescribe if the patient's main problem is an out of control fever.

No, the main problem is ARDS which for COVID is an immune mediated response. If you wait to try it after they wind up on mechanical ventilation, the horse is probably out of the barn. The real use I’ve seen is those with a mild hypoxia to attempt to prevent it from getting that far.

Whether or not it works remains to be seen. My guess based on personal experience is yes, but not by any clinically relevant degree.

 

[okfine]

It will take far longer than years for this drug to be scientifically proven to be effective against covid 19.

Not true. You simply don't know what you are talking about and are pulling things right out of your ass.

Most of the human testing done on drugs is for safety. We already know many of the dangers of this drug, which greatly reduces or eliminates that process. What scientists are looking for is a string signal of efficacy, and you can get that from a study of 1400 people, as is happening right now.

Trump favors a trial of 70 people in hopes that only 20% die. That way he can use those numbers to back peddle politically.

 

[White 6]

Hydroxychloroquine, sold as Plaquenil, is a very safe drug. It has been in use with many malaria, lupus and rheumatoid arthritis patients for decades. The question is whether it is effective against COVID-19. It might help to take a step back and look at terminology:

"Anecdotal evidence," in science, means evidence of an outcome not covered in a repeatable trial. It doesn't mean "out of left field," and the casual use of anecdotal evidence to indicate something with less credibility than a rumor isn't the same thing. Chloroquine is a toxic substance used to treat drug-resistant malaria cases, as a preferred alternative to letting the patient die. It is also used in fish tank cleaners. Not the same thing as hydroxychloroquine.

Medicine is the most primitive of our sciences, and one reason is that it is part science, part art. When science fails, the physician is left with art. When chemoradiation failed with my bladder cancer, my oncologist and I discussed alternatives. He had read the preliminary literature on a drug used for other purposes which he felt might work on my cancer; I read the material and concurred. I was recently discharged as cancer-free. Sometimes, when science cannot give a physician the answers he wants to have, the physician has to turn to art. What has worked under what circumstances with what kinds of patients with what symptoms in the past, and is there evidence of success in situations similar to those involving me and this patient? If the choices are between near-certain death and using a safe pill that will probably work, a physician's choice is pretty clear. That does not mean the physician believes that the drug has been proven effective to the gold standard of success in multiple repeatable trials. Thousands of physicians around the world treating hundreds of thousands of patients are prescribing hydroxychloroquine wearing their "artist" hat, not their "scientist" hat.

In the 1980s, after medical school, I was practicing psychiatry in Europe and became aware that manic-depressive patients, now called bipolar, were getting relief from use of anticonvulsants. I read the limited literature, talked with pharmacists and neurologists, and concluded that anticonvulsants were worth a try, because the alternative was antipsychotics, all of which had serious, bad side-effects. I explained my rationale to my patients, and prescribed the safest, oldest, anticonvulsants I could find for some bipolar patients. Today, anticonvulsants are proven to work in patients with bipolar disorder. The oath I took begins "First, do no harm." It does not begin, "First, do nothing."

Not really disagreeing much except that Plaquenil is not really benign and does have lots of potential and risky side effects. The only advantage with COVID-19 is to treat when the fever has become severe, and it is only for the fever that Planquenil is useful.

{...
Plaquenil Side Effects
...
Check with your doctor immediately if any of the following side effects occur while taking hydroxychloroquine:
Incidence not known

• Blistering, peeling, loosening of the skin
• blurred vision or other vision changes
• chest discomfort, pain, or tightness
• cough or hoarseness
• dark urine
• decreased urination
• defective color vision
• diarrhea
• difficulty breathing
• difficulty seeing at night
• dizziness or fainting
• fast, pounding, uneven heartbeat
• feeling that others are watching you or controlling your behavior
• feeling that others can hear your thoughts
• feeling, seeing, or hearing things that are not there
• fever with or without chills
• general feeling of tiredness or weakness
• headache
• inability to move the eyes
• increased blinking or spasms of the eyelid
• joint or muscle pain
• large, hive-like swelling on the face, eyelids, lips, tongue, throat, hands, legs, feet, and sex organs
• loss of hearing
• lower back or side pain
• noisy breathing
• painful or difficult urination
• red irritated eyes
• red skin lesions, often with a purple center
• severe mood or mental changes
• sore throat sores, ulcers, or white spots on the lips or in the mouth
• sticking out of the tongue
• stomach pain
• swelling of the feet or lower legs
• swollen or painful glands
• trouble with breathing, speaking, or swallowing
• uncontrolled twisting movements of the neck, trunk, arms, or legs
• unusual behavior
• unusual bleeding or bruising
• unusual facial expressions
• unusual tiredness or weakness
• yellow eyes or skin

...}

Those are more extreme than the typical side effects of most drugs.

No they aren't. You should see the side effects listed for the drugs I take.

Always thought you were suffering from the drugs you take.

I'm not suffering from brain damage like you.

Oh, you misunderstand little guy. I was not suggesting you were brain damaged, I was merely suggesting that your excitability might be from an interaction or adverse effect of the "drugs you take". I do hope they are legally prescribed, you didn't have to doctor shop to get on them, and you will be feeling much better soon.

 

[Dragonlady]

Right, let's trust the political guy and not the one with vast experience dealing with infectious diseases during a pandemic.

What did the "vast experience" guy do for SARS and N1H1 and Obama trying to find Ebola its American host?

Well, for starters, slightly more than 12,000 people died in the USA in the first year of H1N1. That number will be exceeded in the first two months by by this virus, and it's predicted that 100,000 people will die.

And in terms of ebola, there were only a handful of cases and they were totally contained. So there's that.

Of course President Obama did what the CDC asked him to do, and didn't screw around with it, deny the problem or lie about it. After it was over, he had an enquiry about what to do differently, and actually implemented the recommendations - all of which Dumb Donald tossed out and ignored.

 

[BULLDOG]

I thought this thread was about the efficacy of hydroxychloroquine. If so, there is no debate. Fauci is correct. No scientifically verified data supports the hypothesis that hydroxychloroquine is an effective treatment for CV-19. Full stop.

There is no scientifically verified data that supports the hypothesis that hydroxychloroquine is never an effective treatment for Covid-19.

There is no scientifically verified data that supports the hypothesis that hydroxychloroquine is any more effective as a treatment for Covid-19 than a Payday candy bar is.

actually there is, and more coming out every day.

Please site the scientifically verified data.

Are you promoting a notion that hydroxychloroquine can only help covid 19 patients if it has scientific research and studies and is blessed by a government agency as an effective treatment?

I'm promoting the notion that there is no reason to believe it can help without scientific research and studies. That drug is not without side effects. It is known to effect the electrical signals in your heart, potentially causing death for some people. Only an idiot would take something that could kill you with no reason to believe it will help you.

There are reasons to believe it will help. Not only anecdotal evidence, but scientific evidence from those that understand how viruses work.

Because hydroxychloroquine allows zinc ions inside the cell it can in theory affect the electrical conduction in myocardium, or heart cells. Heart cells are very susceptible to changes in ion currents because that is how the heart muscle operates there is electrical conduction that tells the muscle cells when to relax and when to squeeze. Hydroxychloroquine can potentially cause arrhythmias because of its affects on ion channels. Other cell types are not as susceptible. This is not a common side affect. If you have COVID-19, you would be ill advised to worry about heart issues as a potential side affect as opposed to the potential benefits.

The MSM is attempting to trick the masses again by downplaying the role hydroxychoroquine can play in fighting this virus.

I hope it works, but there is no reason at this time to believe it does.

Maybe you missed my previous post.

Plaquenil (hydroxychoroquine), acts as an ionophore. It punches holes in the cell membrane where the virus has already penetrated to allow zinc ions inside. Zinc prevents the virus's replication machinery. That's what make Plaquenil effective. So taking plac 1L and a zinc supplement together early on can prevent debilitating Covid 19 infection.

This is not speculative. This is the mechanism by which this medicine can help. It has been very effective for those who are in the early stages of this virus. In short, there is reason to believe it helps and can be an effective treatment, preventing the deadly infections caused by COVID 19.

Sounds interesting, but if all that is true, I should be able to get the same information from an accredited source instead of just some anonymous poster on the internet, You got a link to that source? I hope it does turn out to be an effective treatment. I just don't see where that has happened yet,

 

[BULLDOG]

I'm promoting the notion that there is no reason to believe it can help without scientific research and studies.

Wait a minute here... Have you not seen all the success stories about people getting better because of this drug? You don't need ANY scientific research to read and understand all the testimonies and success stories. Even a 5 year old who doesn't even know what science is can see that if the drug is fixing everybody who takes it, then it is helping. You don't need any science to see if something works. Do you need a scale to see if you are fat?

Yes, and I saw testimonials about virtually every scam in the past too. Jim Bakker (remember Jim and Tammy Faye?) had testimonials claiming some sort of solution that he was selling cured it. He even had a doctor backing him up. Show some accredited study or admit you got nothing but hope that it might work.

 

[bripat9643]

Hydroxychloroquine, sold as Plaquenil, is a very safe drug. It has been in use with many malaria, lupus and rheumatoid arthritis patients for decades. The question is whether it is effective against COVID-19. It might help to take a step back and look at terminology:

"Anecdotal evidence," in science, means evidence of an outcome not covered in a repeatable trial. It doesn't mean "out of left field," and the casual use of anecdotal evidence to indicate something with less credibility than a rumor isn't the same thing. Chloroquine is a toxic substance used to treat drug-resistant malaria cases, as a preferred alternative to letting the patient die. It is also used in fish tank cleaners. Not the same thing as hydroxychloroquine.

Medicine is the most primitive of our sciences, and one reason is that it is part science, part art. When science fails, the physician is left with art. When chemoradiation failed with my bladder cancer, my oncologist and I discussed alternatives. He had read the preliminary literature on a drug used for other purposes which he felt might work on my cancer; I read the material and concurred. I was recently discharged as cancer-free. Sometimes, when science cannot give a physician the answers he wants to have, the physician has to turn to art. What has worked under what circumstances with what kinds of patients with what symptoms in the past, and is there evidence of success in situations similar to those involving me and this patient? If the choices are between near-certain death and using a safe pill that will probably work, a physician's choice is pretty clear. That does not mean the physician believes that the drug has been proven effective to the gold standard of success in multiple repeatable trials. Thousands of physicians around the world treating hundreds of thousands of patients are prescribing hydroxychloroquine wearing their "artist" hat, not their "scientist" hat.

In the 1980s, after medical school, I was practicing psychiatry in Europe and became aware that manic-depressive patients, now called bipolar, were getting relief from use of anticonvulsants. I read the limited literature, talked with pharmacists and neurologists, and concluded that anticonvulsants were worth a try, because the alternative was antipsychotics, all of which had serious, bad side-effects. I explained my rationale to my patients, and prescribed the safest, oldest, anticonvulsants I could find for some bipolar patients. Today, anticonvulsants are proven to work in patients with bipolar disorder. The oath I took begins "First, do no harm." It does not begin, "First, do nothing."

Not really disagreeing much except that Plaquenil is not really benign and does have lots of potential and risky side effects. The only advantage with COVID-19 is to treat when the fever has become severe, and it is only for the fever that Planquenil is useful.

{...
Plaquenil Side Effects
...
Check with your doctor immediately if any of the following side effects occur while taking hydroxychloroquine:
Incidence not known

• Blistering, peeling, loosening of the skin
• blurred vision or other vision changes
• chest discomfort, pain, or tightness
• cough or hoarseness
• dark urine
• decreased urination
• defective color vision
• diarrhea
• difficulty breathing
• difficulty seeing at night
• dizziness or fainting
• fast, pounding, uneven heartbeat
• feeling that others are watching you or controlling your behavior
• feeling that others can hear your thoughts
• feeling, seeing, or hearing things that are not there
• fever with or without chills
• general feeling of tiredness or weakness
• headache
• inability to move the eyes
• increased blinking or spasms of the eyelid
• joint or muscle pain
• large, hive-like swelling on the face, eyelids, lips, tongue, throat, hands, legs, feet, and sex organs
• loss of hearing
• lower back or side pain
• noisy breathing
• painful or difficult urination
• red irritated eyes
• red skin lesions, often with a purple center
• severe mood or mental changes
• sore throat sores, ulcers, or white spots on the lips or in the mouth
• sticking out of the tongue
• stomach pain
• swelling of the feet or lower legs
• swollen or painful glands
• trouble with breathing, speaking, or swallowing
• uncontrolled twisting movements of the neck, trunk, arms, or legs
• unusual behavior
• unusual bleeding or bruising
• unusual facial expressions
• unusual tiredness or weakness
• yellow eyes or skin

...}

Those are more extreme than the typical side effects of most drugs.

Here are the side effects of Metformin, a drug I take:

• Abdominal or stomach discomfort
• cough or hoarseness
• decreased appetite
• diarrhea
• fast or shallow breathing
• fever or chills
• general feeling of discomfort
• lower back or side pain
• muscle pain or cramping
• painful or difficult urination
• sleepiness
• Anxiety
• blurred vision
• chest discomfort
• cold sweats
• coma
• confusion
• cool, pale skin
• depression
• difficult or labored breathing
• dizziness
• fast, irregular, pounding, or racing heartbeat or pulse
• feeling of warmth
• headache
• increased hunger
• increased sweating
• nausea
• nervousness
• nightmares
• redness of the face, neck, arms, and occasionally, upper chest
• seizures
• shakiness
• slurred speech
• tightness in the chest
• unusual tiredness or weakness
• Behavior change similar to being drunk
• difficulty with concentrating
• drowsiness
• lack or loss of strength
• restless sleep
• unusual sleepiness

Explains a lot, knew your fat ass was diabetic.

There is no bar so low that you won't slither under it.

 

[HappyJoy]

Hydroxychloroquine, sold as Plaquenil, is a very safe drug. It has been in use with many malaria, lupus and rheumatoid arthritis patients for decades. The question is whether it is effective against COVID-19. It might help to take a step back and look at terminology:

"Anecdotal evidence," in science, means evidence of an outcome not covered in a repeatable trial. It doesn't mean "out of left field," and the casual use of anecdotal evidence to indicate something with less credibility than a rumor isn't the same thing. Chloroquine is a toxic substance used to treat drug-resistant malaria cases, as a preferred alternative to letting the patient die. It is also used in fish tank cleaners. Not the same thing as hydroxychloroquine.

Medicine is the most primitive of our sciences, and one reason is that it is part science, part art. When science fails, the physician is left with art. When chemoradiation failed with my bladder cancer, my oncologist and I discussed alternatives. He had read the preliminary literature on a drug used for other purposes which he felt might work on my cancer; I read the material and concurred. I was recently discharged as cancer-free. Sometimes, when science cannot give a physician the answers he wants to have, the physician has to turn to art. What has worked under what circumstances with what kinds of patients with what symptoms in the past, and is there evidence of success in situations similar to those involving me and this patient? If the choices are between near-certain death and using a safe pill that will probably work, a physician's choice is pretty clear. That does not mean the physician believes that the drug has been proven effective to the gold standard of success in multiple repeatable trials. Thousands of physicians around the world treating hundreds of thousands of patients are prescribing hydroxychloroquine wearing their "artist" hat, not their "scientist" hat.

In the 1980s, after medical school, I was practicing psychiatry in Europe and became aware that manic-depressive patients, now called bipolar, were getting relief from use of anticonvulsants. I read the limited literature, talked with pharmacists and neurologists, and concluded that anticonvulsants were worth a try, because the alternative was antipsychotics, all of which had serious, bad side-effects. I explained my rationale to my patients, and prescribed the safest, oldest, anticonvulsants I could find for some bipolar patients. Today, anticonvulsants are proven to work in patients with bipolar disorder. The oath I took begins "First, do no harm." It does not begin, "First, do nothing."

Not really disagreeing much except that Plaquenil is not really benign and does have lots of potential and risky side effects. The only advantage with COVID-19 is to treat when the fever has become severe, and it is only for the fever that Planquenil is useful.

{...
Plaquenil Side Effects
...
Check with your doctor immediately if any of the following side effects occur while taking hydroxychloroquine:
Incidence not known

• Blistering, peeling, loosening of the skin
• blurred vision or other vision changes
• chest discomfort, pain, or tightness
• cough or hoarseness
• dark urine
• decreased urination
• defective color vision
• diarrhea
• difficulty breathing
• difficulty seeing at night
• dizziness or fainting
• fast, pounding, uneven heartbeat
• feeling that others are watching you or controlling your behavior
• feeling that others can hear your thoughts
• feeling, seeing, or hearing things that are not there
• fever with or without chills
• general feeling of tiredness or weakness
• headache
• inability to move the eyes
• increased blinking or spasms of the eyelid
• joint or muscle pain
• large, hive-like swelling on the face, eyelids, lips, tongue, throat, hands, legs, feet, and sex organs
• loss of hearing
• lower back or side pain
• noisy breathing
• painful or difficult urination
• red irritated eyes
• red skin lesions, often with a purple center
• severe mood or mental changes
• sore throat sores, ulcers, or white spots on the lips or in the mouth
• sticking out of the tongue
• stomach pain
• swelling of the feet or lower legs
• swollen or painful glands
• trouble with breathing, speaking, or swallowing
• uncontrolled twisting movements of the neck, trunk, arms, or legs
• unusual behavior
• unusual bleeding or bruising
• unusual facial expressions
• unusual tiredness or weakness
• yellow eyes or skin

...}

Those are more extreme than the typical side effects of most drugs.

Here are the side effects of Metformin, a drug I take:

• Abdominal or stomach discomfort
• cough or hoarseness
• decreased appetite
• diarrhea
• fast or shallow breathing
• fever or chills
• general feeling of discomfort
• lower back or side pain
• muscle pain or cramping
• painful or difficult urination
• sleepiness
• Anxiety
• blurred vision
• chest discomfort
• cold sweats
• coma
• confusion
• cool, pale skin
• depression
• difficult or labored breathing
• dizziness
• fast, irregular, pounding, or racing heartbeat or pulse
• feeling of warmth
• headache
• increased hunger
• increased sweating
• nausea
• nervousness
• nightmares
• redness of the face, neck, arms, and occasionally, upper chest
• seizures
• shakiness
• slurred speech
• tightness in the chest
• unusual tiredness or weakness
• Behavior change similar to being drunk
• difficulty with concentrating
• drowsiness
• lack or loss of strength
• restless sleep
• unusual sleepiness

Explains a lot, knew your fat ass was diabetic.

There is no bar so low that you won't slither under it.

Many on the right were saying the weak should just volunteer themselves for the sake of the economy. So, anytime fatboy.

 

[eagle1462010]

Hydroxychloroquine, sold as Plaquenil, is a very safe drug. It has been in use with many malaria, lupus and rheumatoid arthritis patients for decades. The question is whether it is effective against COVID-19. It might help to take a step back and look at terminology:

"Anecdotal evidence," in science, means evidence of an outcome not covered in a repeatable trial. It doesn't mean "out of left field," and the casual use of anecdotal evidence to indicate something with less credibility than a rumor isn't the same thing. Chloroquine is a toxic substance used to treat drug-resistant malaria cases, as a preferred alternative to letting the patient die. It is also used in fish tank cleaners. Not the same thing as hydroxychloroquine.

Medicine is the most primitive of our sciences, and one reason is that it is part science, part art. When science fails, the physician is left with art. When chemoradiation failed with my bladder cancer, my oncologist and I discussed alternatives. He had read the preliminary literature on a drug used for other purposes which he felt might work on my cancer; I read the material and concurred. I was recently discharged as cancer-free. Sometimes, when science cannot give a physician the answers he wants to have, the physician has to turn to art. What has worked under what circumstances with what kinds of patients with what symptoms in the past, and is there evidence of success in situations similar to those involving me and this patient? If the choices are between near-certain death and using a safe pill that will probably work, a physician's choice is pretty clear. That does not mean the physician believes that the drug has been proven effective to the gold standard of success in multiple repeatable trials. Thousands of physicians around the world treating hundreds of thousands of patients are prescribing hydroxychloroquine wearing their "artist" hat, not their "scientist" hat.

In the 1980s, after medical school, I was practicing psychiatry in Europe and became aware that manic-depressive patients, now called bipolar, were getting relief from use of anticonvulsants. I read the limited literature, talked with pharmacists and neurologists, and concluded that anticonvulsants were worth a try, because the alternative was antipsychotics, all of which had serious, bad side-effects. I explained my rationale to my patients, and prescribed the safest, oldest, anticonvulsants I could find for some bipolar patients. Today, anticonvulsants are proven to work in patients with bipolar disorder. The oath I took begins "First, do no harm." It does not begin, "First, do nothing."

Not really disagreeing much except that Plaquenil is not really benign and does have lots of potential and risky side effects. The only advantage with COVID-19 is to treat when the fever has become severe, and it is only for the fever that Planquenil is useful.

{...
Plaquenil Side Effects
...
Check with your doctor immediately if any of the following side effects occur while taking hydroxychloroquine:
Incidence not known

• Blistering, peeling, loosening of the skin
• blurred vision or other vision changes
• chest discomfort, pain, or tightness
• cough or hoarseness
• dark urine
• decreased urination
• defective color vision
• diarrhea
• difficulty breathing
• difficulty seeing at night
• dizziness or fainting
• fast, pounding, uneven heartbeat
• feeling that others are watching you or controlling your behavior
• feeling that others can hear your thoughts
• feeling, seeing, or hearing things that are not there
• fever with or without chills
• general feeling of tiredness or weakness
• headache
• inability to move the eyes
• increased blinking or spasms of the eyelid
• joint or muscle pain
• large, hive-like swelling on the face, eyelids, lips, tongue, throat, hands, legs, feet, and sex organs
• loss of hearing
• lower back or side pain
• noisy breathing
• painful or difficult urination
• red irritated eyes
• red skin lesions, often with a purple center
• severe mood or mental changes
• sore throat sores, ulcers, or white spots on the lips or in the mouth
• sticking out of the tongue
• stomach pain
• swelling of the feet or lower legs
• swollen or painful glands
• trouble with breathing, speaking, or swallowing
• uncontrolled twisting movements of the neck, trunk, arms, or legs
• unusual behavior
• unusual bleeding or bruising
• unusual facial expressions
• unusual tiredness or weakness
• yellow eyes or skin

...}

Those are more extreme than the typical side effects of most drugs.

Here are the side effects of Metformin, a drug I take:

• Abdominal or stomach discomfort
• cough or hoarseness
• decreased appetite
• diarrhea
• fast or shallow breathing
• fever or chills
• general feeling of discomfort
• lower back or side pain
• muscle pain or cramping
• painful or difficult urination
• sleepiness
• Anxiety
• blurred vision
• chest discomfort
• cold sweats
• coma
• confusion
• cool, pale skin
• depression
• difficult or labored breathing
• dizziness
• fast, irregular, pounding, or racing heartbeat or pulse
• feeling of warmth
• headache
• increased hunger
• increased sweating
• nausea
• nervousness
• nightmares
• redness of the face, neck, arms, and occasionally, upper chest
• seizures
• shakiness
• slurred speech
• tightness in the chest
• unusual tiredness or weakness
• Behavior change similar to being drunk
• difficulty with concentrating
• drowsiness
• lack or loss of strength
• restless sleep
• unusual sleepiness

Explains a lot, knew your fat ass was diabetic.

There is no bar so low that you won't slither under it.

Many on the right were saying the weak should just volunteer themselves for the sake of the economy. So, anytime fatboy.

Another day and more garbage posting from the party of the mentally insane.

That is you Happy Joy..............

 

[bripat9643]

Hydroxychloroquine, sold as Plaquenil, is a very safe drug. It has been in use with many malaria, lupus and rheumatoid arthritis patients for decades. The question is whether it is effective against COVID-19. It might help to take a step back and look at terminology:

"Anecdotal evidence," in science, means evidence of an outcome not covered in a repeatable trial. It doesn't mean "out of left field," and the casual use of anecdotal evidence to indicate something with less credibility than a rumor isn't the same thing. Chloroquine is a toxic substance used to treat drug-resistant malaria cases, as a preferred alternative to letting the patient die. It is also used in fish tank cleaners. Not the same thing as hydroxychloroquine.

Medicine is the most primitive of our sciences, and one reason is that it is part science, part art. When science fails, the physician is left with art. When chemoradiation failed with my bladder cancer, my oncologist and I discussed alternatives. He had read the preliminary literature on a drug used for other purposes which he felt might work on my cancer; I read the material and concurred. I was recently discharged as cancer-free. Sometimes, when science cannot give a physician the answers he wants to have, the physician has to turn to art. What has worked under what circumstances with what kinds of patients with what symptoms in the past, and is there evidence of success in situations similar to those involving me and this patient? If the choices are between near-certain death and using a safe pill that will probably work, a physician's choice is pretty clear. That does not mean the physician believes that the drug has been proven effective to the gold standard of success in multiple repeatable trials. Thousands of physicians around the world treating hundreds of thousands of patients are prescribing hydroxychloroquine wearing their "artist" hat, not their "scientist" hat.

In the 1980s, after medical school, I was practicing psychiatry in Europe and became aware that manic-depressive patients, now called bipolar, were getting relief from use of anticonvulsants. I read the limited literature, talked with pharmacists and neurologists, and concluded that anticonvulsants were worth a try, because the alternative was antipsychotics, all of which had serious, bad side-effects. I explained my rationale to my patients, and prescribed the safest, oldest, anticonvulsants I could find for some bipolar patients. Today, anticonvulsants are proven to work in patients with bipolar disorder. The oath I took begins "First, do no harm." It does not begin, "First, do nothing."

Not really disagreeing much except that Plaquenil is not really benign and does have lots of potential and risky side effects. The only advantage with COVID-19 is to treat when the fever has become severe, and it is only for the fever that Planquenil is useful.

{...
Plaquenil Side Effects
...
Check with your doctor immediately if any of the following side effects occur while taking hydroxychloroquine:
Incidence not known

• Blistering, peeling, loosening of the skin
• blurred vision or other vision changes
• chest discomfort, pain, or tightness
• cough or hoarseness
• dark urine
• decreased urination
• defective color vision
• diarrhea
• difficulty breathing
• difficulty seeing at night
• dizziness or fainting
• fast, pounding, uneven heartbeat
• feeling that others are watching you or controlling your behavior
• feeling that others can hear your thoughts
• feeling, seeing, or hearing things that are not there
• fever with or without chills
• general feeling of tiredness or weakness
• headache
• inability to move the eyes
• increased blinking or spasms of the eyelid
• joint or muscle pain
• large, hive-like swelling on the face, eyelids, lips, tongue, throat, hands, legs, feet, and sex organs
• loss of hearing
• lower back or side pain
• noisy breathing
• painful or difficult urination
• red irritated eyes
• red skin lesions, often with a purple center
• severe mood or mental changes
• sore throat sores, ulcers, or white spots on the lips or in the mouth
• sticking out of the tongue
• stomach pain
• swelling of the feet or lower legs
• swollen or painful glands
• trouble with breathing, speaking, or swallowing
• uncontrolled twisting movements of the neck, trunk, arms, or legs
• unusual behavior
• unusual bleeding or bruising
• unusual facial expressions
• unusual tiredness or weakness
• yellow eyes or skin

...}

Those are more extreme than the typical side effects of most drugs.

Here are the side effects of Metformin, a drug I take:

• Abdominal or stomach discomfort
• cough or hoarseness
• decreased appetite
• diarrhea
• fast or shallow breathing
• fever or chills
• general feeling of discomfort
• lower back or side pain
• muscle pain or cramping
• painful or difficult urination
• sleepiness
• Anxiety
• blurred vision
• chest discomfort
• cold sweats
• coma
• confusion
• cool, pale skin
• depression
• difficult or labored breathing
• dizziness
• fast, irregular, pounding, or racing heartbeat or pulse
• feeling of warmth
• headache
• increased hunger
• increased sweating
• nausea
• nervousness
• nightmares
• redness of the face, neck, arms, and occasionally, upper chest
• seizures
• shakiness
• slurred speech
• tightness in the chest
• unusual tiredness or weakness
• Behavior change similar to being drunk
• difficulty with concentrating
• drowsiness
• lack or loss of strength
• restless sleep
• unusual sleepiness

Explains a lot, knew your fat ass was diabetic.

There is no bar so low that you won't slither under it.

Many on the right were saying the weak should just volunteer themselves for the sake of the economy. So, anytime fatboy.

You and your ilk want everyone with a job to volunteer.

 

[HappyJoy]

Hydroxychloroquine, sold as Plaquenil, is a very safe drug. It has been in use with many malaria, lupus and rheumatoid arthritis patients for decades. The question is whether it is effective against COVID-19. It might help to take a step back and look at terminology:

"Anecdotal evidence," in science, means evidence of an outcome not covered in a repeatable trial. It doesn't mean "out of left field," and the casual use of anecdotal evidence to indicate something with less credibility than a rumor isn't the same thing. Chloroquine is a toxic substance used to treat drug-resistant malaria cases, as a preferred alternative to letting the patient die. It is also used in fish tank cleaners. Not the same thing as hydroxychloroquine.

Medicine is the most primitive of our sciences, and one reason is that it is part science, part art. When science fails, the physician is left with art. When chemoradiation failed with my bladder cancer, my oncologist and I discussed alternatives. He had read the preliminary literature on a drug used for other purposes which he felt might work on my cancer; I read the material and concurred. I was recently discharged as cancer-free. Sometimes, when science cannot give a physician the answers he wants to have, the physician has to turn to art. What has worked under what circumstances with what kinds of patients with what symptoms in the past, and is there evidence of success in situations similar to those involving me and this patient? If the choices are between near-certain death and using a safe pill that will probably work, a physician's choice is pretty clear. That does not mean the physician believes that the drug has been proven effective to the gold standard of success in multiple repeatable trials. Thousands of physicians around the world treating hundreds of thousands of patients are prescribing hydroxychloroquine wearing their "artist" hat, not their "scientist" hat.

In the 1980s, after medical school, I was practicing psychiatry in Europe and became aware that manic-depressive patients, now called bipolar, were getting relief from use of anticonvulsants. I read the limited literature, talked with pharmacists and neurologists, and concluded that anticonvulsants were worth a try, because the alternative was antipsychotics, all of which had serious, bad side-effects. I explained my rationale to my patients, and prescribed the safest, oldest, anticonvulsants I could find for some bipolar patients. Today, anticonvulsants are proven to work in patients with bipolar disorder. The oath I took begins "First, do no harm." It does not begin, "First, do nothing."

Not really disagreeing much except that Plaquenil is not really benign and does have lots of potential and risky side effects. The only advantage with COVID-19 is to treat when the fever has become severe, and it is only for the fever that Planquenil is useful.

{...
Plaquenil Side Effects
...
Check with your doctor immediately if any of the following side effects occur while taking hydroxychloroquine:
Incidence not known

• Blistering, peeling, loosening of the skin
• blurred vision or other vision changes
• chest discomfort, pain, or tightness
• cough or hoarseness
• dark urine
• decreased urination
• defective color vision
• diarrhea
• difficulty breathing
• difficulty seeing at night
• dizziness or fainting
• fast, pounding, uneven heartbeat
• feeling that others are watching you or controlling your behavior
• feeling that others can hear your thoughts
• feeling, seeing, or hearing things that are not there
• fever with or without chills
• general feeling of tiredness or weakness
• headache
• inability to move the eyes
• increased blinking or spasms of the eyelid
• joint or muscle pain
• large, hive-like swelling on the face, eyelids, lips, tongue, throat, hands, legs, feet, and sex organs
• loss of hearing
• lower back or side pain
• noisy breathing
• painful or difficult urination
• red irritated eyes
• red skin lesions, often with a purple center
• severe mood or mental changes
• sore throat sores, ulcers, or white spots on the lips or in the mouth
• sticking out of the tongue
• stomach pain
• swelling of the feet or lower legs
• swollen or painful glands
• trouble with breathing, speaking, or swallowing
• uncontrolled twisting movements of the neck, trunk, arms, or legs
• unusual behavior
• unusual bleeding or bruising
• unusual facial expressions
• unusual tiredness or weakness
• yellow eyes or skin

...}

Those are more extreme than the typical side effects of most drugs.

Here are the side effects of Metformin, a drug I take:

• Abdominal or stomach discomfort
• cough or hoarseness
• decreased appetite
• diarrhea
• fast or shallow breathing
• fever or chills
• general feeling of discomfort
• lower back or side pain
• muscle pain or cramping
• painful or difficult urination
• sleepiness
• Anxiety
• blurred vision
• chest discomfort
• cold sweats
• coma
• confusion
• cool, pale skin
• depression
• difficult or labored breathing
• dizziness
• fast, irregular, pounding, or racing heartbeat or pulse
• feeling of warmth
• headache
• increased hunger
• increased sweating
• nausea
• nervousness
• nightmares
• redness of the face, neck, arms, and occasionally, upper chest
• seizures
• shakiness
• slurred speech
• tightness in the chest
• unusual tiredness or weakness
• Behavior change similar to being drunk
• difficulty with concentrating
• drowsiness
• lack or loss of strength
• restless sleep
• unusual sleepiness

Explains a lot, knew your fat ass was diabetic.

There is no bar so low that you won't slither under it.

Many on the right were saying the weak should just volunteer themselves for the sake of the economy. So, anytime fatboy.

You and your ilk want everyone with a job to volunteer.

No, just you you. It's the crowd you hang with after all.

 

[Ray From Cleveland]

Right, let's trust the political guy and not the one with vast experience dealing with infectious diseases during a pandemic.

What did the "vast experience" guy do for SARS and N1H1 and Obama trying to find Ebola its American host?

Well, for starters, slightly more than 12,000 people died in the USA in the first year of H1N1. That number will be exceeded in the first two months by by this virus, and it's predicted that 100,000 people will die.

And in terms of ebola, there were only a handful of cases and they were totally contained. So there's that.

Of course President Obama did what the CDC asked him to do, and didn't screw around with it, deny the problem or lie about it. After it was over, he had an enquiry about what to do differently, and actually implemented the recommendations - all of which Dumb Donald tossed out and ignored.

Actually, the reason we are in the trouble we are is because the President did allow the CDC to call almost every shot. Need a timeline link, just let me know. I have it right here in my folder.

 

[Ray From Cleveland]

Side effects from hydroxychloroquine are really very minimal. It’s used as first line in Lupus and rheumatoid arthritis specifically because it’s so benign.

The people listing what is on the packet insert really don’t know what they’re talking about.

Several years ago my throat began to swell up. It got a little difficult to breathe and swallow. About 2:00 am I went to the emergency room, and they took me right away. They started an IV on me. When the doctor came in, he told me the swelling in my throat was serious, and caused by my high blood pressure medication. I told the doctor I have been taking that medication for a couple of years. He told me that is irrelevant.

They cleaned me out, he instructed me never to take the medication again, and consult my doctor for a replacement.

A few weeks later, I looked into the drug. Other people experienced what I did. Some have died from being suffocated to death. They still sell that drug on the market today.

Lisinpro?

I wasn't going to give out the name of the medication, but since you did, yes.

 

[Ray From Cleveland]

While the side effects have been know for some time...the "combo" effects are not...and that could be a real problem. We know it can damage the heart. We know it suppresses the immune system

Fair enough. I'm going to take a drug today, and here are the possible side effects:

side effects occur: easy bruising/bleeding, difficulty hearing, ringing in the ears, signs of kidney problems (such as change in the amount of urine), persistent or severe nausea/vomiting, unexplained tiredness, dizziness, dark urine, yellowing eyes/skin.

This drug may rarely cause serious bleeding from the stomach/intestine or other areas of the body. If you notice any of the following rare but very serious side effects, seek immediate medical attention: black/tarry stools, persistent or severe stomach/abdominal pain, vomit that looks like coffee grounds, slurred speech, weakness on one side of the body, sudden visionchanges or severe headache.

A very serious allergic reaction to this drug is rare. However, seek immediate medical attention if you notice any symptoms of a serious allergic reaction, including: rash, itching/swelling (especially of the face/tongue/throat), severe dizziness, trouble breathing.

This is not a complete list of possible side effects. If you notice other effects not listed above.

So what is this dangerous medication I take? It's called Bayer extra strength aspirin.

Bayer Plus Extra Strength Oral: Uses, Side Effects, Interactions, Pictures, Warnings & Dosing - WebMD

Find patient medical information for Bayer Plus Extra Strength oral on WebMD including its uses, side effects and safety, interactions, pictures, warnings and user ratings.

www.webmd.com

Repeated aspirin use will corrode your stomach lining and can be very serious.

The point I'm making is that all medications have a risk of side effects, even aspirin. However it's not a reason not to use them. I knew somebody that got kidney damage from taking too much tylenol.

We can't restrain ourselves from using something in this crisis situation because some may have side effects. The physician of course needs to make that call because everybody's circumstance is different. With my other medical conditions, hydroxychloroquine may be putting me at severe risk of death. I don't know if it would or not, but I expect my doctor to make that decision instead of me. Hell, she doesn't even want me taking any anti-inflammatories, so I don't know what I would do if infected with this virus.

 

[Ray From Cleveland]

take all the malaria meds you want - you can still get the virus and pass it on to others.

You don't know that yet. It hasn't been tested as a preventative. Right now, they are giving it to people that already have COVID. And if this malaria drug works on half of the people, then I'd say we made great headway against this pandemic.

No, I can guarantee it has absolutely NO effect on the COVID-19 at all!
It is ONLY to bring down a very high fever, if you have a very high fever, regardless of what caused the fever.
There are really no known drugs for any viruses, and drugs are only prescribed to fight the side effects caused by the viral infection.

Wrong. Doctors have seen great improvements in some people. The only way you feel better is if your illness is weakening. Some who survived said they thought they were going to die. Do you know how bad you must be suffering to feel like that? Did you ever see anybody in pain and distress before?

The only two ways to stop this virus is to catch it, develop an immunity, and then get better. The second way of course is a vaccine.

So if this drug can give people more comfort, a better chance at survival until they do develop an immunity, then what's wrong with using it??

Because this drug can kill them, or leave them blind or in kidney failure. That's why.

Again, show me a prescription medication that has no possible side effects. We've been using it for malaria for decades.

First of all, the side effects from hydroxychloroquine are likely far more severe than what is listed as very unlikely side effects from other drugs.
Second is that hydroxychloroquine does NOT at all increase the survival rate of people who get COVID-19 but do not get a dangerously high fever.
It is ONLY for the high fever, and nothing else.
It not only does nothing for the pneumonia, but it can CAUSE pneumonia.

https://www.jacionline.org/article/S0091-6749(05)03402-0/fulltext

{...
CONCLUSIONS: Hydroxychloroquine exerts its effect on the immune system by decreasing lymphocyte proliferation and pro-inflammatory cytokines such as TNF-alpha. These are potential mechanisms that can render a host susceptible to infections such as pneumonia. This patient had evidence of selective IgG2 deficiency that correlated with administration of hydroxychloroquine. This is a previously unrecognized alteration of the humoral immune system by this medication.
...}

If you do not have an extremely high fever, not only will Hydroxychloroquine do absolutely no good at all, but it can actually kill you on its own.

Good point, so I guess opt for the second choice--dying.

We're talking about why you should not take this drug as a "preventative measure". If you have no other hope, give it a shot, but I wouldn't take it except as an absolute last resort.

I discussed that with my nurse practitioner. My doctor is currently out on paternity leave. In any case, she told me taking it would not prevent me from getting the virus. Then again, it's never really been tested for that application. They are using it for people that already have the virus.

 

[CrusaderFrank]

Right, let's trust the political guy and not the one with vast experience dealing with infectious diseases during a pandemic.

What did the "vast experience" guy do for SARS and N1H1 and Obama trying to find Ebola its American host?

Well, for starters, slightly more than 12,000 people died in the USA in the first year of H1N1. That number will be exceeded in the first two months by by this virus, and it's predicted that 100,000 people will die.

And in terms of ebola, there were only a handful of cases and they were totally contained. So there's that.

Of course President Obama did what the CDC asked him to do, and didn't screw around with it, deny the problem or lie about it. After it was over, he had an enquiry about what to do differently, and actually implemented the recommendations - all of which Dumb Donald tossed out and ignored.

Obama had Ebola infected people bleed out at an apartment complex in Dallas, fucking insane!

 

[Ray From Cleveland]

University of Pittsburgh is developing a vaccine that sounds really interesting. It is mixed with protein, no Covid19 virus. It is administered on a bandaid like patch that has thousands of needle like sugar proteins that barely pierce the skin. Science is amazing.

Where Vaccines To Prevent COVID-19 Stand

More than two dozen vaccines for COVID-19 are underdevelopment, and at least three have begun human tests. Here's what's being tried, and why it's now possible to develop candidates in record time.

www.npr.org

Actually there are list of vaccines that are currently under testing, but those tests take a while, and none will likely be ready until early next year, which is a long way down the road.

What they do know is that people who had the virus and survived developed antibodies against it. They could use the blood from those people and infuse it in others who will develop the same antibodies. It's only a temporary possibility to help those like myself who are at high risk of death if we get this thing.

Also, there are people who had those antibodies all along. They are trying to develop a testing method to determine who they might be, and encourage them to give blood.