Heated disagreement breaks out in Situation Room over hydroxychloroquine, Navarro vs Fauci

[Ray From Cleveland]

Chloroquine and Hydroxychloroquine Can Have Serious Side Effects

There is newfound interest in chloroquine and hydroxychloroquine because of their potential to treat coronavirus disease of 2019 (COVID-19),

www.poison.org

This MAY be a treatment and hopefully it will but Trump was being asinine about it.

That kind of talk from someone in his position is insane and dangerous. There are people who already depend on this drug and hoarding means they won't get it.

The President announced yesterday that we received millions and millions of doses of hydroxychlorquine. You can't "hoard" prescription medications like you can toilet paper.

"The President announced"...yea that's reassuring. He also announced that the number of cases would be down to zero weeks ago.

Why don't you watch things not out of context. Did you see his press briefing yesterday? I did. When this subject came up, all the President said is he's read some pretty convincing things about the combo drugs, and as long as they are not hurting anybody, it's worth a try. He said if it does work, that's better for Americans. If it doesn't work, then we gave it a good shot.

 

[CrusaderFrank]

Common sense should allow you to evaluate the number of success stories and compare them to the years it will take to get official scientific research certified by your favorite government agency when you only have a week to live.

Goddamn that is stupid on literally every level possible. Let's unpack it:

1) first, we have scientific method precisely because common sense cannot be trusted

2) it's not going to take years. The clinical trial results will be available within a couple of weeks. If the medicine is effective, it will produce a strong signal in the results, and will be fast tracked

3) you really, really need to go learn about the difference between anecdotal evidence and scientific evidence

It only takes a couple of weeks to bring a new drug to market?

Who knew?!

 

[bripat9643]

Hydroxychloroquine, sold as Plaquenil, is a very safe drug. It has been in use with many malaria, lupus and rheumatoid arthritis patients for decades. The question is whether it is effective against COVID-19. It might help to take a step back and look at terminology:

"Anecdotal evidence," in science, means evidence of an outcome not covered in a repeatable trial. It doesn't mean "out of left field," and the casual use of anecdotal evidence to indicate something with less credibility than a rumor isn't the same thing. Chloroquine is a toxic substance used to treat drug-resistant malaria cases, as a preferred alternative to letting the patient die. It is also used in fish tank cleaners. Not the same thing as hydroxychloroquine.

Medicine is the most primitive of our sciences, and one reason is that it is part science, part art. When science fails, the physician is left with art. When chemoradiation failed with my bladder cancer, my oncologist and I discussed alternatives. He had read the preliminary literature on a drug used for other purposes which he felt might work on my cancer; I read the material and concurred. I was recently discharged as cancer-free. Sometimes, when science cannot give a physician the answers he wants to have, the physician has to turn to art. What has worked under what circumstances with what kinds of patients with what symptoms in the past, and is there evidence of success in situations similar to those involving me and this patient? If the choices are between near-certain death and using a safe pill that will probably work, a physician's choice is pretty clear. That does not mean the physician believes that the drug has been proven effective to the gold standard of success in multiple repeatable trials. Thousands of physicians around the world treating hundreds of thousands of patients are prescribing hydroxychloroquine wearing their "artist" hat, not their "scientist" hat.

In the 1980s, after medical school, I was practicing psychiatry in Europe and became aware that manic-depressive patients, now called bipolar, were getting relief from use of anticonvulsants. I read the limited literature, talked with pharmacists and neurologists, and concluded that anticonvulsants were worth a try, because the alternative was antipsychotics, all of which had serious, bad side-effects. I explained my rationale to my patients, and prescribed the safest, oldest, anticonvulsants I could find for some bipolar patients. Today, anticonvulsants are proven to work in patients with bipolar disorder. The oath I took begins "First, do no harm." It does not begin, "First, do nothing."

Not really disagreeing much except that Plaquenil is not really benign and does have lots of potential and risky side effects. The only advantage with COVID-19 is to treat when the fever has become severe, and it is only for the fever that Planquenil is useful.

{...
Plaquenil Side Effects
...
Check with your doctor immediately if any of the following side effects occur while taking hydroxychloroquine:
Incidence not known

• Blistering, peeling, loosening of the skin
• blurred vision or other vision changes
• chest discomfort, pain, or tightness
• cough or hoarseness
• dark urine
• decreased urination
• defective color vision
• diarrhea
• difficulty breathing
• difficulty seeing at night
• dizziness or fainting
• fast, pounding, uneven heartbeat
• feeling that others are watching you or controlling your behavior
• feeling that others can hear your thoughts
• feeling, seeing, or hearing things that are not there
• fever with or without chills
• general feeling of tiredness or weakness
• headache
• inability to move the eyes
• increased blinking or spasms of the eyelid
• joint or muscle pain
• large, hive-like swelling on the face, eyelids, lips, tongue, throat, hands, legs, feet, and sex organs
• loss of hearing
• lower back or side pain
• noisy breathing
• painful or difficult urination
• red irritated eyes
• red skin lesions, often with a purple center
• severe mood or mental changes
• sore throat sores, ulcers, or white spots on the lips or in the mouth
• sticking out of the tongue
• stomach pain
• swelling of the feet or lower legs
• swollen or painful glands
• trouble with breathing, speaking, or swallowing
• uncontrolled twisting movements of the neck, trunk, arms, or legs
• unusual behavior
• unusual bleeding or bruising
• unusual facial expressions
• unusual tiredness or weakness
• yellow eyes or skin

...}

Those are more extreme than the typical side effects of most drugs.

Here are the side effects of Metformin, a drug I take:

• Abdominal or stomach discomfort
• cough or hoarseness
• decreased appetite
• diarrhea
• fast or shallow breathing
• fever or chills
• general feeling of discomfort
• lower back or side pain
• muscle pain or cramping
• painful or difficult urination
• sleepiness
• Anxiety
• blurred vision
• chest discomfort
• cold sweats
• coma
• confusion
• cool, pale skin
• depression
• difficult or labored breathing
• dizziness
• fast, irregular, pounding, or racing heartbeat or pulse
• feeling of warmth
• headache
• increased hunger
• increased sweating
• nausea
• nervousness
• nightmares
• redness of the face, neck, arms, and occasionally, upper chest
• seizures
• shakiness
• slurred speech
• tightness in the chest
• unusual tiredness or weakness
• Behavior change similar to being drunk
• difficulty with concentrating
• drowsiness
• lack or loss of strength
• restless sleep
• unusual sleepiness

 

[Ray From Cleveland]

take all the malaria meds you want - you can still get the virus and pass it on to others.

You don't know that yet. It hasn't been tested as a preventative. Right now, they are giving it to people that already have COVID. And if this malaria drug works on half of the people, then I'd say we made great headway against this pandemic.

No, I can guarantee it has absolutely NO effect on the COVID-19 at all!
It is ONLY to bring down a very high fever, if you have a very high fever, regardless of what caused the fever.
There are really no known drugs for any viruses, and drugs are only prescribed to fight the side effects caused by the viral infection.

Wrong. Doctors have seen great improvements in some people. The only way you feel better is if your illness is weakening. Some who survived said they thought they were going to die. Do you know how bad you must be suffering to feel like that? Did you ever see anybody in pain and distress before?

The only two ways to stop this virus is to catch it, develop an immunity, and then get better. The second way of course is a vaccine.

So if this drug can give people more comfort, a better chance at survival until they do develop an immunity, then what's wrong with using it??

Because this drug can kill them, or leave them blind or in kidney failure. That's why.

Again, show me a prescription medication that has no possible side effects. We've been using it for malaria for decades.

 

[Fort Fun Indiana]

It only takes a couple of weeks to bring a new drug to market?

Under these circumstances, when the drug is already on the market, and it's dangers are known? Correct, it can be done quickly.

There, you learned something today.

 

[JustAGuy1]

And? There is only anecdotal evidence that it works which quite frankly isn't good enough. My friend who has COVID was prescribed it and had to immediately stop. Other patients it might work but until proven otherwise through clinical trials it's not a wonder drug.

We elected Trump to get things done. Clinical trials would be a waste of time right now.

So you just want to prescribe everyone medication that may or may not send them into cardiac arrest?

My God this is stupid. Z-packs alone in theory can cause cardiac arrest and yet it is prescribed millions of times per year. The benefits FAR outweigh the very minimal chance of this complication.

Tens of millions of people aren't taking the Z-pack. As a person with very bad drug reactions to supposedly "benign" drugs, I would be reluctant to try a drug which could damage my heart, my kidneys, and leave me blind, unless there was absolutely no other hope. No fucking way I'd take it as a "precaution".

Not to mention, that my sister, who is SUPPOSED to by taking hydroxychloroquine for her reumatoid arthritis, and who literally needs the drug to continue living, can't get it because the entire world's supply has been diverted to corona virus testing.

Well then, as a true collectivist believer you agree that your sister must then give her life for the greater good

Obviously I'm not a true collectivst believer, because I don't want my sister to die because idiots took her drug and killed themselves with it.

No one should be forced to give their life "for the greater good", or because someone in the Administration bought shares in a drug company.

So really AREN'T a Progessive when it gets personal. Got it. Nobody "killed" themselves with it twit. Change the channel.

Really? You clearly have not read the side effects and dangers of taking this drug.

Change the Channel, the dude swallowed fish bowl cleaner

You don't know that the drug has some pretty serious side effects? Didn't anyone tell you and you didn't bother to look into it at all?

Do you know of any prescription drugs that don't have possible side effects?

Of course, not all side effects are equal or equally likely. You're like a child, this shouldn't have to be explained to you.

You worthless fucks would be gleeful if no drug was allowed and the death rate hit 2.2 million... You folks are some sick mother fuckers....

You stupid idiots would take the word of two con artists who desperately want a "magic bullet" cure for this plague over the word of the doctors and scientists who have worked in the field for all of their working lives. It was listening to Wilbur Ross and Donald Trump, both of whom denied there was a problem in the first place, that make the USA the worldwide centre for this pandemic.

The rest of the world has closed its borders to YOU. We're pointing to YOU as an example of what NOT to do in this pandemic.

This is is shitshow of epic proportions, and every day your lying President goes on the TV and blows smoke up your ass about things you know NOTHING ABOUT. And you are prepared to believe him. Why? On what evidence? Because Trump has been right any anything to do with this virus?

Why do you continue to believe a man who has caused so much death and destruction, from the day of his inauguration?

What an ugly piece of crap you are.

 

[CowboyTed]

take all the malaria meds you want - you can still get the virus and pass it on to others.

You don't know that yet. It hasn't been tested as a preventative. Right now, they are giving it to people that already have COVID. And if this malaria drug works on half of the people, then I'd say we made great headway against this pandemic.

No, I can guarantee it has absolutely NO effect on the COVID-19 at all!
It is ONLY to bring down a very high fever, if you have a very high fever, regardless of what caused the fever.
There are really no known drugs for any viruses, and drugs are only prescribed to fight the side effects caused by the viral infection.

Wrong. Doctors have seen great improvements in some people. The only way you feel better is if your illness is weakening. Some who survived said they thought they were going to die. Do you know how bad you must be suffering to feel like that? Did you ever see anybody in pain and distress before?

The only two ways to stop this virus is to catch it, develop an immunity, and then get better. The second way of course is a vaccine.

So if this drug can give people more comfort, a better chance at survival until they do develop an immunity, then what's wrong with using it??

Because this drug can kill them, or leave them blind or in kidney failure. That's why.

Again, show me a prescription medication that has no possible side effects. We've been using it for malaria for decades.

Well one thing people who get malaria are going to find it very hard to get.

Another thing suppose it make COVID worse?

but the president told us to take it...

 

[JustAGuy1]

take all the malaria meds you want - you can still get the virus and pass it on to others.

You don't know that yet. It hasn't been tested as a preventative. Right now, they are giving it to people that already have COVID. And if this malaria drug works on half of the people, then I'd say we made great headway against this pandemic.

No, I can guarantee it has absolutely NO effect on the COVID-19 at all!
It is ONLY to bring down a very high fever, if you have a very high fever, regardless of what caused the fever.
There are really no known drugs for any viruses, and drugs are only prescribed to fight the side effects caused by the viral infection.

Wrong. Doctors have seen great improvements in some people. The only way you feel better is if your illness is weakening. Some who survived said they thought they were going to die. Do you know how bad you must be suffering to feel like that? Did you ever see anybody in pain and distress before?

The only two ways to stop this virus is to catch it, develop an immunity, and then get better. The second way of course is a vaccine.

So if this drug can give people more comfort, a better chance at survival until they do develop an immunity, then what's wrong with using it??

Because this drug can kill them, or leave them blind or in kidney failure. That's why.

Now STFU.
FDA Approves Malaria Drugs to Treat COVID-19, Despite Little Proof They Work

https://www.usnews.com/news/health-news/articles/2020-03-31/fda-approves-malaria-drugs-to-treat-covid-19-despite-little-proof-they-work

"

 

[bripat9643]

You're trying to keep people from getting potentially life saving medications

False. I am all for expedited clinical trials to determine the effectiveness. If effective, then prescribe it. This is a complicated scientific idea that is clearly over your head. So, being the lazy moron you are, you defer to Dear Leader for your info.

"Clinical trials?" Meaning the kind required for FDA approval? Gee, that should only take year.

Go fuck yourself, asshole. Doctors can prescribe it now, and if it works then thousand of lives will be saved. Your policy would allow thousands of people to die while we're waiting on the FDA bureaucracy. There isn't a thing "over my head" about it. It's not difficult to administer it to 100 patients and compare it to people who didn't receive it. Only a TDS moron believes that the effectiveness can't be established fairly shortly.

 

[bripat9643]

Take note how this is a purely partisan conversation????

Only here, where "partisan" means "Trump cult vs reality". In what the rest of us call reality, science is not partisan, nor is this discussion.

Yes, partisans believe their biases constitute reality.

 

[Fort Fun Indiana]

Clinical trials?" Meaning the kind required for FDA approval?

No. The kind required to discern a signal in the data that demonstrates efficacy. Thanks for asking! You learned something today.

 

[bripat9643]

Clinical trials?" Meaning the kind required for FDA approval?

No. The kind required to discern a signal in the data that demonstrates efficacy. Thanks for asking! You learned something today.

That's what they're doing, asshat. Part of the process is prescribing it to people who are suffering from coronavirus infection.

 

[Fort Fun Indiana]

That's what they're doing,

Yes I know. I am the one who told you that. You're welcome, whiner. So, we wait for the results. It shouldn't take long, the window for the treatment is only a couple of weeks.

 

[Ray From Cleveland]

take all the malaria meds you want - you can still get the virus and pass it on to others.

You don't know that yet. It hasn't been tested as a preventative. Right now, they are giving it to people that already have COVID. And if this malaria drug works on half of the people, then I'd say we made great headway against this pandemic.

No, I can guarantee it has absolutely NO effect on the COVID-19 at all!
It is ONLY to bring down a very high fever, if you have a very high fever, regardless of what caused the fever.
There are really no known drugs for any viruses, and drugs are only prescribed to fight the side effects caused by the viral infection.

Wrong. Doctors have seen great improvements in some people. The only way you feel better is if your illness is weakening. Some who survived said they thought they were going to die. Do you know how bad you must be suffering to feel like that? Did you ever see anybody in pain and distress before?

The only two ways to stop this virus is to catch it, develop an immunity, and then get better. The second way of course is a vaccine.

So if this drug can give people more comfort, a better chance at survival until they do develop an immunity, then what's wrong with using it??

Because this drug can kill them, or leave them blind or in kidney failure. That's why.

Again, show me a prescription medication that has no possible side effects. We've been using it for malaria for decades.

Well one thing people who get malaria are going to find it very hard to get.

Another thing suppose it make COVID worse?

but the president told us to take it...

The President didn't tell anybody to take anything. What he said is that he'd like to see it tried out based on what Doctors that used it have said about the combo.

You don't find out what the drug can or will do, if it will have any negative ramifications, if it makes things worse for some unless you do start using it. I'm sure any physician that is going to try it will inform their patient or family ahead of time that it's not clinically studied, there are no guarantees, and what the most probably side effect(s) might be.

The President said we received millions and millions of doses of this product. It's cheap and quick to make, you need a prescription no matter what you're using it for, and running out for people already using it for malaria will have little to worry about unless tests show that it prevents a person from contracting the virus while using it.

 

[okfine]

in the places it has been used in controlled tests on infected people it has worked.

This is false. There have been no controlled tests done.

Misinformation pandemic.

 

[Lesh]

Why don't you watch things not out of context. Did you see his press briefing yesterday? I did. When this subject came up, all the President said is he's read some pretty convincing things about the combo drugs, and as long as they are not hurting anybody, it's worth a try. He said if it does work, that's better for Americans. If it doesn't work, then we gave it a good shot.

While the side effects have been know for some time...the "combo" effects are not...and that could be a real problem. We know it can damage the heart. We know it suppresses the immune system

Well one thing people who get malaria are going to find it very hard to get.

And lupus and rheumatoid diseases

Another thing suppose it make COVID worse?

It can.

I hope it's a valid treatment but I'll leave that up to the doctors

These Trumpers would be touting leeches and bleeding as a cure if Trump told them to

 

[okfine]

Chloroquine and Hydroxychloroquine Can Have Serious Side Effects

There is newfound interest in chloroquine and hydroxychloroquine because of their potential to treat coronavirus disease of 2019 (COVID-19),

www.poison.org

This MAY be a treatment and hopefully it will but Trump was being asinine about it.

That kind of talk from someone in his position is insane and dangerous. There are people who already depend on this drug and hoarding means they won't get it.

The President announced yesterday that we received millions and millions of doses of hydroxychlorquine. You can't "hoard" prescription medications like you can toilet paper.

"The President announced"...yea that's reassuring. He also announced that the number of cases would be down to zero weeks ago.

15 to 355K in the US. Then and now.

 

[Ray From Cleveland]

While the side effects have been know for some time...the "combo" effects are not...and that could be a real problem. We know it can damage the heart. We know it suppresses the immune system

Fair enough. I'm going to take a drug today, and here are the possible side effects:

side effects occur: easy bruising/bleeding, difficulty hearing, ringing in the ears, signs of kidney problems (such as change in the amount of urine), persistent or severe nausea/vomiting, unexplained tiredness, dizziness, dark urine, yellowing eyes/skin.

This drug may rarely cause serious bleeding from the stomach/intestine or other areas of the body. If you notice any of the following rare but very serious side effects, seek immediate medical attention: black/tarry stools, persistent or severe stomach/abdominal pain, vomit that looks like coffee grounds, slurred speech, weakness on one side of the body, sudden visionchanges or severe headache.

A very serious allergic reaction to this drug is rare. However, seek immediate medical attention if you notice any symptoms of a serious allergic reaction, including: rash, itching/swelling (especially of the face/tongue/throat), severe dizziness, trouble breathing.

This is not a complete list of possible side effects. If you notice other effects not listed above.

So what is this dangerous medication I take? It's called Bayer extra strength aspirin.

Bayer Plus Extra Strength Oral: Uses, Side Effects, Interactions, Pictures, Warnings & Dosing - WebMD

Find patient medical information for Bayer Plus Extra Strength oral on WebMD including its uses, side effects and safety, interactions, pictures, warnings and user ratings.

www.webmd.com

 

[Rigby5]

take all the malaria meds you want - you can still get the virus and pass it on to others.

You don't know that yet. It hasn't been tested as a preventative. Right now, they are giving it to people that already have COVID. And if this malaria drug works on half of the people, then I'd say we made great headway against this pandemic.

No, I can guarantee it has absolutely NO effect on the COVID-19 at all!
It is ONLY to bring down a very high fever, if you have a very high fever, regardless of what caused the fever.
There are really no known drugs for any viruses, and drugs are only prescribed to fight the side effects caused by the viral infection.

Wrong. Doctors have seen great improvements in some people. The only way you feel better is if your illness is weakening. Some who survived said they thought they were going to die. Do you know how bad you must be suffering to feel like that? Did you ever see anybody in pain and distress before?

The only two ways to stop this virus is to catch it, develop an immunity, and then get better. The second way of course is a vaccine.

So if this drug can give people more comfort, a better chance at survival until they do develop an immunity, then what's wrong with using it??

Because this drug can kill them, or leave them blind or in kidney failure. That's why.

Again, show me a prescription medication that has no possible side effects. We've been using it for malaria for decades.

First of all, the side effects from hydroxychloroquine are likely far more severe than what is listed as very unlikely side effects from other drugs.
Second is that hydroxychloroquine does NOT at all increase the survival rate of people who get COVID-19 but do not get a dangerously high fever.
It is ONLY for the high fever, and nothing else.
It not only does nothing for the pneumonia, but it can CAUSE pneumonia.

https://www.jacionline.org/article/S0091-6749(05)03402-0/fulltext

{...
CONCLUSIONS: Hydroxychloroquine exerts its effect on the immune system by decreasing lymphocyte proliferation and pro-inflammatory cytokines such as TNF-alpha. These are potential mechanisms that can render a host susceptible to infections such as pneumonia. This patient had evidence of selective IgG2 deficiency that correlated with administration of hydroxychloroquine. This is a previously unrecognized alteration of the humoral immune system by this medication.
...}

If you do not have an extremely high fever, not only will Hydroxychloroquine do absolutely no good at all, but it can actually kill you on its own.

 

[colfax_m]

Side effects from hydroxychloroquine are really very minimal. It’s used as first line in Lupus and rheumatoid arthritis specifically because it’s so benign.

The people listing what is on the packet insert really don’t know what they’re talking about.