Heated disagreement breaks out in Situation Room over hydroxychloroquine, Navarro vs Fauci

[Natural Citizen]

...you'd have to be out of your mind to take the word of a man with over 50 years experience in the health care industry instead of an economist.

I wouldn't trust either as far as I could throw em.

 

[White 6]

Hydroxychloroquine, sold as Plaquenil, is a very safe drug. It has been in use with many malaria, lupus and rheumatoid arthritis patients for decades. The question is whether it is effective against COVID-19. It might help to take a step back and look at terminology:

"Anecdotal evidence," in science, means evidence of an outcome not covered in a repeatable trial. It doesn't mean "out of left field," and the casual use of anecdotal evidence to indicate something with less credibility than a rumor isn't the same thing. Chloroquine is a toxic substance used to treat drug-resistant malaria cases, as a preferred alternative to letting the patient die. It is also used in fish tank cleaners. Not the same thing as hydroxychloroquine.

Medicine is the most primitive of our sciences, and one reason is that it is part science, part art. When science fails, the physician is left with art. When chemoradiation failed with my bladder cancer, my oncologist and I discussed alternatives. He had read the preliminary literature on a drug used for other purposes which he felt might work on my cancer; I read the material and concurred. I was recently discharged as cancer-free. Sometimes, when science cannot give a physician the answers he wants to have, the physician has to turn to art. What has worked under what circumstances with what kinds of patients with what symptoms in the past, and is there evidence of success in situations similar to those involving me and this patient? If the choices are between near-certain death and using a safe pill that will probably work, a physician's choice is pretty clear. That does not mean the physician believes that the drug has been proven effective to the gold standard of success in multiple repeatable trials. Thousands of physicians around the world treating hundreds of thousands of patients are prescribing hydroxychloroquine wearing their "artist" hat, not their "scientist" hat.

In the 1980s, after medical school, I was practicing psychiatry in Europe and became aware that manic-depressive patients, now called bipolar, were getting relief from use of anticonvulsants. I read the limited literature, talked with pharmacists and neurologists, and concluded that anticonvulsants were worth a try, because the alternative was antipsychotics, all of which had serious, bad side-effects. I explained my rationale to my patients, and prescribed the safest, oldest, anticonvulsants I could find for some bipolar patients. Today, anticonvulsants are proven to work in patients with bipolar disorder. The oath I took begins "First, do no harm." It does not begin, "First, do nothing."

Not really disagreeing much except that Plaquenil is not really benign and does have lots of potential and risky side effects. The only advantage with COVID-19 is to treat when the fever has become severe, and it is only for the fever that Planquenil is useful.

{...
Plaquenil Side Effects
...
Check with your doctor immediately if any of the following side effects occur while taking hydroxychloroquine:
Incidence not known

• Blistering, peeling, loosening of the skin
• blurred vision or other vision changes
• chest discomfort, pain, or tightness
• cough or hoarseness
• dark urine
• decreased urination
• defective color vision
• diarrhea
• difficulty breathing
• difficulty seeing at night
• dizziness or fainting
• fast, pounding, uneven heartbeat
• feeling that others are watching you or controlling your behavior
• feeling that others can hear your thoughts
• feeling, seeing, or hearing things that are not there
• fever with or without chills
• general feeling of tiredness or weakness
• headache
• inability to move the eyes
• increased blinking or spasms of the eyelid
• joint or muscle pain
• large, hive-like swelling on the face, eyelids, lips, tongue, throat, hands, legs, feet, and sex organs
• loss of hearing
• lower back or side pain
• noisy breathing
• painful or difficult urination
• red irritated eyes
• red skin lesions, often with a purple center
• severe mood or mental changes
• sore throat sores, ulcers, or white spots on the lips or in the mouth
• sticking out of the tongue
• stomach pain
• swelling of the feet or lower legs
• swollen or painful glands
• trouble with breathing, speaking, or swallowing
• uncontrolled twisting movements of the neck, trunk, arms, or legs
• unusual behavior
• unusual bleeding or bruising
• unusual facial expressions
• unusual tiredness or weakness
• yellow eyes or skin

...}

Those are more extreme than the typical side effects of most drugs.

No they aren't. You should see the side effects listed for the drugs I take.

Always thought you were suffering from the drugs you take.

 

[Ray From Cleveland]

take all the malaria meds you want - you can still get the virus and pass it on to others.

You don't know that yet. It hasn't been tested as a preventative. Right now, they are giving it to people that already have COVID. And if this malaria drug works on half of the people, then I'd say we made great headway against this pandemic.

No, I can guarantee it has absolutely NO effect on the COVID-19 at all!
It is ONLY to bring down a very high fever, if you have a very high fever, regardless of what caused the fever.
There are really no known drugs for any viruses, and drugs are only prescribed to fight the side effects caused by the viral infection.

Wrong. Doctors have seen great improvements in some people. The only way you feel better is if your illness is weakening. Some who survived said they thought they were going to die. Do you know how bad you must be suffering to feel like that? Did you ever see anybody in pain and distress before?

The only two ways to stop this virus is to catch it, develop an immunity, and then get better. The second way of course is a vaccine.

So if this drug can give people more comfort, a better chance at survival until they do develop an immunity, then what's wrong with using it??

Because this drug can kill them, or leave them blind or in kidney failure. That's why.

Again, show me a prescription medication that has no possible side effects. We've been using it for malaria for decades.

First of all, the side effects from hydroxychloroquine are likely far more severe than what is listed as very unlikely side effects from other drugs.
Second is that hydroxychloroquine does NOT at all increase the survival rate of people who get COVID-19 but do not get a dangerously high fever.
It is ONLY for the high fever, and nothing else.
It not only does nothing for the pneumonia, but it can CAUSE pneumonia.

https://www.jacionline.org/article/S0091-6749(05)03402-0/fulltext

{...
CONCLUSIONS: Hydroxychloroquine exerts its effect on the immune system by decreasing lymphocyte proliferation and pro-inflammatory cytokines such as TNF-alpha. These are potential mechanisms that can render a host susceptible to infections such as pneumonia. This patient had evidence of selective IgG2 deficiency that correlated with administration of hydroxychloroquine. This is a previously unrecognized alteration of the humoral immune system by this medication.
...}

If you do not have an extremely high fever, not only will Hydroxychloroquine do absolutely no good at all, but it can actually kill you on its own.

Good point, so I guess opt for the second choice--dying.

 

[okfine]

Why don't you watch things not out of context. Did you see his press briefing yesterday? I did. When this subject came up, all the President said is he's read some pretty convincing things about the combo drugs, and as long as they are not hurting anybody, it's worth a try. He said if it does work, that's better for Americans. If it doesn't work, then we gave it a good shot.

While the side effects have been know for some time...the "combo" effects are not...and that could be a real problem. We know it can damage the heart. We know it suppresses the immune system

Well one thing people who get malaria are going to find it very hard to get.

And lupus and rheumatoid diseases

Another thing suppose it make COVID worse?

It can.

I hope it's a valid treatment but I'll leave that up to the doctors

These Trumpers would be touting leeches and bleeding as a cure if Trump told them to

A scientist was on NPR radio today. He said he contracted malaria 4 times while doing field research. He took chloroquine, and said the side affects were worse than the malaria itself. Also, it is very bad for the heart. Bad for the eyes.
Also, he said that Ron Klain should be in charge.

Obama’s Ebola Czar on How Trump Has Bungled Coronavirus Response

“Everything the president’s said has been wrong, and that has two real-world consequences, aside from our standard, Oh, Trump lies.”

nymag.com

 

[EvMetro]

Common sense should allow you to evaluate the number of success stories and compare them to the years it will take to get official scientific research certified by your favorite government agency when you only have a week to live.

Goddamn that is stupid on literally every level possible. Let's unpack it:

1) first, we have scientific method precisely because common sense cannot be trusted

2) it's not going to take years. The clinical trial results will be available within a couple of weeks. If the medicine is effective, it will produce a strong signal in the results, and will be fast tracked

3) you really, really need to go learn about the difference between anecdotal evidence and scientific evidence

It will take far longer than years for this drug to be scientifically proven to be effective against covid 19. The problem with this research is that the scientific community will NEVER find a drug that Trump recommended before Fauci effective for anything Trump talked about. Hydroxychloroquine could interfere with the current trajectory towards communism, which means that this drug will either be found to be ineffective or research will never end. Can you imagine the shame to the left if Trump called for this drug against the will of the left and then the drug was proven effective? The left will NEVER let this happen. We don't need any scientific evidence to see the this drug will be forever condemned, unless the left can engineer a narrative about lefties beating Trump to it.

 

[Ray From Cleveland]

Side effects from hydroxychloroquine are really very minimal. It’s used as first line in Lupus and rheumatoid arthritis specifically because it’s so benign.

The people listing what is on the packet insert really don’t know what they’re talking about.

Several years ago my throat began to swell up. It got a little difficult to breathe and swallow. About 2:00 am I went to the emergency room, and they took me right away. They started an IV on me. When the doctor came in, he told me the swelling in my throat was serious, and caused by my high blood pressure medication. I told the doctor I have been taking that medication for a couple of years. He told me that is irrelevant.

They cleaned me out, he instructed me never to take the medication again, and consult my doctor for a replacement.

A few weeks later, I looked into the drug. Other people experienced what I did. Some have died from being suffocated to death. They still sell that drug on the market today.

 

[okfine]

Hydroxychloroquine, sold as Plaquenil, is a very safe drug. It has been in use with many malaria, lupus and rheumatoid arthritis patients for decades. The question is whether it is effective against COVID-19. It might help to take a step back and look at terminology:

"Anecdotal evidence," in science, means evidence of an outcome not covered in a repeatable trial. It doesn't mean "out of left field," and the casual use of anecdotal evidence to indicate something with less credibility than a rumor isn't the same thing. Chloroquine is a toxic substance used to treat drug-resistant malaria cases, as a preferred alternative to letting the patient die. It is also used in fish tank cleaners. Not the same thing as hydroxychloroquine.

Medicine is the most primitive of our sciences, and one reason is that it is part science, part art. When science fails, the physician is left with art. When chemoradiation failed with my bladder cancer, my oncologist and I discussed alternatives. He had read the preliminary literature on a drug used for other purposes which he felt might work on my cancer; I read the material and concurred. I was recently discharged as cancer-free. Sometimes, when science cannot give a physician the answers he wants to have, the physician has to turn to art. What has worked under what circumstances with what kinds of patients with what symptoms in the past, and is there evidence of success in situations similar to those involving me and this patient? If the choices are between near-certain death and using a safe pill that will probably work, a physician's choice is pretty clear. That does not mean the physician believes that the drug has been proven effective to the gold standard of success in multiple repeatable trials. Thousands of physicians around the world treating hundreds of thousands of patients are prescribing hydroxychloroquine wearing their "artist" hat, not their "scientist" hat.

In the 1980s, after medical school, I was practicing psychiatry in Europe and became aware that manic-depressive patients, now called bipolar, were getting relief from use of anticonvulsants. I read the limited literature, talked with pharmacists and neurologists, and concluded that anticonvulsants were worth a try, because the alternative was antipsychotics, all of which had serious, bad side-effects. I explained my rationale to my patients, and prescribed the safest, oldest, anticonvulsants I could find for some bipolar patients. Today, anticonvulsants are proven to work in patients with bipolar disorder. The oath I took begins "First, do no harm." It does not begin, "First, do nothing."

Not really disagreeing much except that Plaquenil is not really benign and does have lots of potential and risky side effects. The only advantage with COVID-19 is to treat when the fever has become severe, and it is only for the fever that Planquenil is useful.

{...
Plaquenil Side Effects
...
Check with your doctor immediately if any of the following side effects occur while taking hydroxychloroquine:
Incidence not known

• Blistering, peeling, loosening of the skin
• blurred vision or other vision changes
• chest discomfort, pain, or tightness
• cough or hoarseness
• dark urine
• decreased urination
• defective color vision
• diarrhea
• difficulty breathing
• difficulty seeing at night
• dizziness or fainting
• fast, pounding, uneven heartbeat
• feeling that others are watching you or controlling your behavior
• feeling that others can hear your thoughts
• feeling, seeing, or hearing things that are not there
• fever with or without chills
• general feeling of tiredness or weakness
• headache
• inability to move the eyes
• increased blinking or spasms of the eyelid
• joint or muscle pain
• large, hive-like swelling on the face, eyelids, lips, tongue, throat, hands, legs, feet, and sex organs
• loss of hearing
• lower back or side pain
• noisy breathing
• painful or difficult urination
• red irritated eyes
• red skin lesions, often with a purple center
• severe mood or mental changes
• sore throat sores, ulcers, or white spots on the lips or in the mouth
• sticking out of the tongue
• stomach pain
• swelling of the feet or lower legs
• swollen or painful glands
• trouble with breathing, speaking, or swallowing
• uncontrolled twisting movements of the neck, trunk, arms, or legs
• unusual behavior
• unusual bleeding or bruising
• unusual facial expressions
• unusual tiredness or weakness
• yellow eyes or skin

...}

Those are more extreme than the typical side effects of most drugs.

Here are the side effects of Metformin, a drug I take:

• Abdominal or stomach discomfort
• cough or hoarseness
• decreased appetite
• diarrhea
• fast or shallow breathing
• fever or chills
• general feeling of discomfort
• lower back or side pain
• muscle pain or cramping
• painful or difficult urination
• sleepiness
• Anxiety
• blurred vision
• chest discomfort
• cold sweats
• coma
• confusion
• cool, pale skin
• depression
• difficult or labored breathing
• dizziness
• fast, irregular, pounding, or racing heartbeat or pulse
• feeling of warmth
• headache
• increased hunger
• increased sweating
• nausea
• nervousness
• nightmares
• redness of the face, neck, arms, and occasionally, upper chest
• seizures
• shakiness
• slurred speech
• tightness in the chest
• unusual tiredness or weakness
• Behavior change similar to being drunk
• difficulty with concentrating
• drowsiness
• lack or loss of strength
• restless sleep
• unusual sleepiness

Sounds like many drug side affects. Most tag the heart.

 

[Leo123]

I thought this thread was about the efficacy of hydroxychloroquine. If so, there is no debate. Fauci is correct. No scientifically verified data supports the hypothesis that hydroxychloroquine is an effective treatment for CV-19. Full stop.

Well then, God forbid, if you get Covid-19, please tell your doctor not to treat you with it.

 

[colfax_m]

Side effects from hydroxychloroquine are really very minimal. It’s used as first line in Lupus and rheumatoid arthritis specifically because it’s so benign.

The people listing what is on the packet insert really don’t know what they’re talking about.

Several years ago my throat began to swell up. It got a little difficult to breathe and swallow. About 2:00 am I went to the emergency room, and they took me right away. They started an IV on me. When the doctor came in, he told me the swelling in my throat was serious, and caused by my high blood pressure medication. I told the doctor I have been taking that medication for a couple of years. He told me that is irrelevant.

They cleaned me out, he instructed me never to take the medication again, and consult my doctor for a replacement.

A few weeks later, I looked into the drug. Other people experienced what I did. Some have died from being suffocated to death. They still sell that drug on the market today.

Angioedema is not extremely uncommon with that drug and probably way over reported. Deaths from it are extremely uncommon. The thing Is there is a significant mortality benefit from using that drug so benefits outweigh risks.

In terms of hydroxychloroqine, the benefits are uncertain. Let’s say it prevents every single death from COVID. Since mortality is only 1%, you have to treat 100 patients just to save one life. In terms of medicine, that’s called number needed to treat, and 100 is up there, although not extremely high. The benefit is probably pretty low. The risks are also low.

In the grand scheme of things, big picture stuff, this is really just not very relevant. If it works, or doesn’t work, this is really not that important.

 

[okfine]

University of Pittsburgh is developing a vaccine that sounds really interesting. It is mixed with protein, no Covid19 virus. It is administered on a bandaid like patch that has thousands of needle like sugar proteins that barely pierce the skin. Science is amazing.

Where Vaccines To Prevent COVID-19 Stand

More than two dozen vaccines for COVID-19 are underdevelopment, and at least three have begun human tests. Here's what's being tried, and why it's now possible to develop candidates in record time.

www.npr.org

 

[Dragonlady]

take all the malaria meds you want - you can still get the virus and pass it on to others.

You don't know that yet. It hasn't been tested as a preventative. Right now, they are giving it to people that already have COVID. And if this malaria drug works on half of the people, then I'd say we made great headway against this pandemic.

No, I can guarantee it has absolutely NO effect on the COVID-19 at all!
It is ONLY to bring down a very high fever, if you have a very high fever, regardless of what caused the fever.
There are really no known drugs for any viruses, and drugs are only prescribed to fight the side effects caused by the viral infection.

Wrong. Doctors have seen great improvements in some people. The only way you feel better is if your illness is weakening. Some who survived said they thought they were going to die. Do you know how bad you must be suffering to feel like that? Did you ever see anybody in pain and distress before?

The only two ways to stop this virus is to catch it, develop an immunity, and then get better. The second way of course is a vaccine.

So if this drug can give people more comfort, a better chance at survival until they do develop an immunity, then what's wrong with using it??

Because this drug can kill them, or leave them blind or in kidney failure. That's why.

Again, show me a prescription medication that has no possible side effects. We've been using it for malaria for decades.

First of all, the side effects from hydroxychloroquine are likely far more severe than what is listed as very unlikely side effects from other drugs.
Second is that hydroxychloroquine does NOT at all increase the survival rate of people who get COVID-19 but do not get a dangerously high fever.
It is ONLY for the high fever, and nothing else.
It not only does nothing for the pneumonia, but it can CAUSE pneumonia.

https://www.jacionline.org/article/S0091-6749(05)03402-0/fulltext

{...
CONCLUSIONS: Hydroxychloroquine exerts its effect on the immune system by decreasing lymphocyte proliferation and pro-inflammatory cytokines such as TNF-alpha. These are potential mechanisms that can render a host susceptible to infections such as pneumonia. This patient had evidence of selective IgG2 deficiency that correlated with administration of hydroxychloroquine. This is a previously unrecognized alteration of the humoral immune system by this medication.
...}

If you do not have an extremely high fever, not only will Hydroxychloroquine do absolutely no good at all, but it can actually kill you on its own.

Good point, so I guess opt for the second choice--dying.

We're talking about why you should not take this drug as a "preventative measure". If you have no other hope, give it a shot, but I wouldn't take it except as an absolute last resort.

 

[okfine]

While the side effects have been know for some time...the "combo" effects are not...and that could be a real problem. We know it can damage the heart. We know it suppresses the immune system

Fair enough. I'm going to take a drug today, and here are the possible side effects:

side effects occur: easy bruising/bleeding, difficulty hearing, ringing in the ears, signs of kidney problems (such as change in the amount of urine), persistent or severe nausea/vomiting, unexplained tiredness, dizziness, dark urine, yellowing eyes/skin.

This drug may rarely cause serious bleeding from the stomach/intestine or other areas of the body. If you notice any of the following rare but very serious side effects, seek immediate medical attention: black/tarry stools, persistent or severe stomach/abdominal pain, vomit that looks like coffee grounds, slurred speech, weakness on one side of the body, sudden visionchanges or severe headache.

A very serious allergic reaction to this drug is rare. However, seek immediate medical attention if you notice any symptoms of a serious allergic reaction, including: rash, itching/swelling (especially of the face/tongue/throat), severe dizziness, trouble breathing.

This is not a complete list of possible side effects. If you notice other effects not listed above.

So what is this dangerous medication I take? It's called Bayer extra strength aspirin.

WebMD's A to Z Drug Database

WebMD's comprehensive database of prescription drug and medication information from A to Z

www.webmd.com

Repeated aspirin use will corrode your stomach lining and can be very serious.

 

[Rigby5]

Side effects from hydroxychloroquine are really very minimal. It’s used as first line in Lupus and rheumatoid arthritis specifically because it’s so benign.

The people listing what is on the packet insert really don’t know what they’re talking about.

Wrong.
The way hydroxychloroquine works is by REDUCING the immune response from the body.
That is because sometimes the immune response is worse then the infection, and is what is killing you.
But if you are not in that dire state, then taking an immune response inhibitor is a really, really BAD idea.
If you are not on the verge of death from a high fever, then taking hydroxychloroquine is likely to greatly increase the spread of COVID-19 in your body.

Hydroxychloroquine has been proven to cause pneumonia for example.

https://www.jacionline.org/article/S0091-6749(05)03402-0/fulltext

{...
CONCLUSIONS: Hydroxychloroquine exerts its effect on the immune system by decreasing lymphocyte proliferation and pro-inflammatory cytokines such as TNF-alpha. These are potential mechanisms that can render a host susceptible to infections such as pneumonia. This patient had evidence of selective IgG2 deficiency that correlated with administration of hydroxychloroquine. This is a previously unrecognized alteration of the humoral immune system by this medication.
...}

Hydroxychloroquine is NEVER a first choice treatment, and always has high potential risk.
Sure it is used for Lyme Disease, Lupus, etc., but that is because nothing else works at all for those, and Hydroxychloroquine is a very long shot. No one would ever say Hydroxychloroquine is benign.
It simply is not.
It is a strong immune system inhibitor, which is always very risky to take.

 

[okfine]

Side effects from hydroxychloroquine are really very minimal. It’s used as first line in Lupus and rheumatoid arthritis specifically because it’s so benign.

The people listing what is on the packet insert really don’t know what they’re talking about.

Several years ago my throat began to swell up. It got a little difficult to breathe and swallow. About 2:00 am I went to the emergency room, and they took me right away. They started an IV on me. When the doctor came in, he told me the swelling in my throat was serious, and caused by my high blood pressure medication. I told the doctor I have been taking that medication for a couple of years. He told me that is irrelevant.

They cleaned me out, he instructed me never to take the medication again, and consult my doctor for a replacement.

A few weeks later, I looked into the drug. Other people experienced what I did. Some have died from being suffocated to death. They still sell that drug on the market today.

Lisinpro?

 

[bripat9643]

That's what they're doing,

Yes I know. I am the one who told you that. You're welcome, whiner. So, we wait for the results. It shouldn't take long, the window for the treatment is only a couple of weeks.

Thousands of people could die while we wait, moron.

You just don't care if people die, do you?

 

[bripat9643]

Hydroxychloroquine, sold as Plaquenil, is a very safe drug. It has been in use with many malaria, lupus and rheumatoid arthritis patients for decades. The question is whether it is effective against COVID-19. It might help to take a step back and look at terminology:

"Anecdotal evidence," in science, means evidence of an outcome not covered in a repeatable trial. It doesn't mean "out of left field," and the casual use of anecdotal evidence to indicate something with less credibility than a rumor isn't the same thing. Chloroquine is a toxic substance used to treat drug-resistant malaria cases, as a preferred alternative to letting the patient die. It is also used in fish tank cleaners. Not the same thing as hydroxychloroquine.

Medicine is the most primitive of our sciences, and one reason is that it is part science, part art. When science fails, the physician is left with art. When chemoradiation failed with my bladder cancer, my oncologist and I discussed alternatives. He had read the preliminary literature on a drug used for other purposes which he felt might work on my cancer; I read the material and concurred. I was recently discharged as cancer-free. Sometimes, when science cannot give a physician the answers he wants to have, the physician has to turn to art. What has worked under what circumstances with what kinds of patients with what symptoms in the past, and is there evidence of success in situations similar to those involving me and this patient? If the choices are between near-certain death and using a safe pill that will probably work, a physician's choice is pretty clear. That does not mean the physician believes that the drug has been proven effective to the gold standard of success in multiple repeatable trials. Thousands of physicians around the world treating hundreds of thousands of patients are prescribing hydroxychloroquine wearing their "artist" hat, not their "scientist" hat.

In the 1980s, after medical school, I was practicing psychiatry in Europe and became aware that manic-depressive patients, now called bipolar, were getting relief from use of anticonvulsants. I read the limited literature, talked with pharmacists and neurologists, and concluded that anticonvulsants were worth a try, because the alternative was antipsychotics, all of which had serious, bad side-effects. I explained my rationale to my patients, and prescribed the safest, oldest, anticonvulsants I could find for some bipolar patients. Today, anticonvulsants are proven to work in patients with bipolar disorder. The oath I took begins "First, do no harm." It does not begin, "First, do nothing."

Not really disagreeing much except that Plaquenil is not really benign and does have lots of potential and risky side effects. The only advantage with COVID-19 is to treat when the fever has become severe, and it is only for the fever that Planquenil is useful.

{...
Plaquenil Side Effects
...
Check with your doctor immediately if any of the following side effects occur while taking hydroxychloroquine:
Incidence not known

• Blistering, peeling, loosening of the skin
• blurred vision or other vision changes
• chest discomfort, pain, or tightness
• cough or hoarseness
• dark urine
• decreased urination
• defective color vision
• diarrhea
• difficulty breathing
• difficulty seeing at night
• dizziness or fainting
• fast, pounding, uneven heartbeat
• feeling that others are watching you or controlling your behavior
• feeling that others can hear your thoughts
• feeling, seeing, or hearing things that are not there
• fever with or without chills
• general feeling of tiredness or weakness
• headache
• inability to move the eyes
• increased blinking or spasms of the eyelid
• joint or muscle pain
• large, hive-like swelling on the face, eyelids, lips, tongue, throat, hands, legs, feet, and sex organs
• loss of hearing
• lower back or side pain
• noisy breathing
• painful or difficult urination
• red irritated eyes
• red skin lesions, often with a purple center
• severe mood or mental changes
• sore throat sores, ulcers, or white spots on the lips or in the mouth
• sticking out of the tongue
• stomach pain
• swelling of the feet or lower legs
• swollen or painful glands
• trouble with breathing, speaking, or swallowing
• uncontrolled twisting movements of the neck, trunk, arms, or legs
• unusual behavior
• unusual bleeding or bruising
• unusual facial expressions
• unusual tiredness or weakness
• yellow eyes or skin

...}

Those are more extreme than the typical side effects of most drugs.

No they aren't. You should see the side effects listed for the drugs I take.

Always thought you were suffering from the drugs you take.

I'm not suffering from brain damage like you.

 

[colfax_m]

Side effects from hydroxychloroquine are really very minimal. It’s used as first line in Lupus and rheumatoid arthritis specifically because it’s so benign.

The people listing what is on the packet insert really don’t know what they’re talking about.

Wrong.
The way hydroxychloroquine works is by REDUCING the immune response from the body.
That is because sometimes the immune response is worse then the infection, and is what is killing you.
But if you are not in that dire state, then taking an immune response inhibitor is a really, really BAD idea.
If you are not on the verge of death from a high fever, then taking hydroxychloroquine is likely to greatly increase the spread of COVID-19 in your body.

Hydroxychloroquine has been proven to cause pneumonia for example.

https://www.jacionline.org/article/S0091-6749(05)03402-0/fulltext

{...
CONCLUSIONS: Hydroxychloroquine exerts its effect on the immune system by decreasing lymphocyte proliferation and pro-inflammatory cytokines such as TNF-alpha. These are potential mechanisms that can render a host susceptible to infections such as pneumonia. This patient had evidence of selective IgG2 deficiency that correlated with administration of hydroxychloroquine. This is a previously unrecognized alteration of the humoral immune system by this medication.
...}

Hydroxychloroquine is NEVER a first choice treatment, and always has high potential risk.
Sure it is used for Lyme Disease, Lupus, etc., but that is because nothing else works at all for those, and Hydroxychloroquine is a very long shot. No one would ever say Hydroxychloroquine is benign.
It simply is not.
It is a strong immune system inhibitor, which is always very risky to take.

Well, I’ve prescribed it a lot and that’s because it is pretty benign. Far more benign than the alternatives for lupus for example.

It doesn’t cause pneumonia, it just makes one more susceptible, but the overall risk is low. I agree it shouldn’t be used on ambulatory people, and would never use it as such, but for people sick enough to be hospitalized with known COVID, it is used.

 

[bripat9643]

Hydroxychloroquine, sold as Plaquenil, is a very safe drug. It has been in use with many malaria, lupus and rheumatoid arthritis patients for decades. The question is whether it is effective against COVID-19. It might help to take a step back and look at terminology:

"Anecdotal evidence," in science, means evidence of an outcome not covered in a repeatable trial. It doesn't mean "out of left field," and the casual use of anecdotal evidence to indicate something with less credibility than a rumor isn't the same thing. Chloroquine is a toxic substance used to treat drug-resistant malaria cases, as a preferred alternative to letting the patient die. It is also used in fish tank cleaners. Not the same thing as hydroxychloroquine.

Medicine is the most primitive of our sciences, and one reason is that it is part science, part art. When science fails, the physician is left with art. When chemoradiation failed with my bladder cancer, my oncologist and I discussed alternatives. He had read the preliminary literature on a drug used for other purposes which he felt might work on my cancer; I read the material and concurred. I was recently discharged as cancer-free. Sometimes, when science cannot give a physician the answers he wants to have, the physician has to turn to art. What has worked under what circumstances with what kinds of patients with what symptoms in the past, and is there evidence of success in situations similar to those involving me and this patient? If the choices are between near-certain death and using a safe pill that will probably work, a physician's choice is pretty clear. That does not mean the physician believes that the drug has been proven effective to the gold standard of success in multiple repeatable trials. Thousands of physicians around the world treating hundreds of thousands of patients are prescribing hydroxychloroquine wearing their "artist" hat, not their "scientist" hat.

In the 1980s, after medical school, I was practicing psychiatry in Europe and became aware that manic-depressive patients, now called bipolar, were getting relief from use of anticonvulsants. I read the limited literature, talked with pharmacists and neurologists, and concluded that anticonvulsants were worth a try, because the alternative was antipsychotics, all of which had serious, bad side-effects. I explained my rationale to my patients, and prescribed the safest, oldest, anticonvulsants I could find for some bipolar patients. Today, anticonvulsants are proven to work in patients with bipolar disorder. The oath I took begins "First, do no harm." It does not begin, "First, do nothing."

Not really disagreeing much except that Plaquenil is not really benign and does have lots of potential and risky side effects. The only advantage with COVID-19 is to treat when the fever has become severe, and it is only for the fever that Planquenil is useful.

{...
Plaquenil Side Effects
...
Check with your doctor immediately if any of the following side effects occur while taking hydroxychloroquine:
Incidence not known

• Blistering, peeling, loosening of the skin
• blurred vision or other vision changes
• chest discomfort, pain, or tightness
• cough or hoarseness
• dark urine
• decreased urination
• defective color vision
• diarrhea
• difficulty breathing
• difficulty seeing at night
• dizziness or fainting
• fast, pounding, uneven heartbeat
• feeling that others are watching you or controlling your behavior
• feeling that others can hear your thoughts
• feeling, seeing, or hearing things that are not there
• fever with or without chills
• general feeling of tiredness or weakness
• headache
• inability to move the eyes
• increased blinking or spasms of the eyelid
• joint or muscle pain
• large, hive-like swelling on the face, eyelids, lips, tongue, throat, hands, legs, feet, and sex organs
• loss of hearing
• lower back or side pain
• noisy breathing
• painful or difficult urination
• red irritated eyes
• red skin lesions, often with a purple center
• severe mood or mental changes
• sore throat sores, ulcers, or white spots on the lips or in the mouth
• sticking out of the tongue
• stomach pain
• swelling of the feet or lower legs
• swollen or painful glands
• trouble with breathing, speaking, or swallowing
• uncontrolled twisting movements of the neck, trunk, arms, or legs
• unusual behavior
• unusual bleeding or bruising
• unusual facial expressions
• unusual tiredness or weakness
• yellow eyes or skin

...}

Those are more extreme than the typical side effects of most drugs.

Here are the side effects of Metformin, a drug I take:

• Abdominal or stomach discomfort
• cough or hoarseness
• decreased appetite
• diarrhea
• fast or shallow breathing
• fever or chills
• general feeling of discomfort
• lower back or side pain
• muscle pain or cramping
• painful or difficult urination
• sleepiness
• Anxiety
• blurred vision
• chest discomfort
• cold sweats
• coma
• confusion
• cool, pale skin
• depression
• difficult or labored breathing
• dizziness
• fast, irregular, pounding, or racing heartbeat or pulse
• feeling of warmth
• headache
• increased hunger
• increased sweating
• nausea
• nervousness
• nightmares
• redness of the face, neck, arms, and occasionally, upper chest
• seizures
• shakiness
• slurred speech
• tightness in the chest
• unusual tiredness or weakness
• Behavior change similar to being drunk
• difficulty with concentrating
• drowsiness
• lack or loss of strength
• restless sleep
• unusual sleepiness

Sounds like many drug side affects. Most tag the heart.

I looked at Ibuprofen, and it's worse.

 

[Rigby5]

take all the malaria meds you want - you can still get the virus and pass it on to others.

You don't know that yet. It hasn't been tested as a preventative. Right now, they are giving it to people that already have COVID. And if this malaria drug works on half of the people, then I'd say we made great headway against this pandemic.

No, I can guarantee it has absolutely NO effect on the COVID-19 at all!
It is ONLY to bring down a very high fever, if you have a very high fever, regardless of what caused the fever.
There are really no known drugs for any viruses, and drugs are only prescribed to fight the side effects caused by the viral infection.

Wrong. Doctors have seen great improvements in some people. The only way you feel better is if your illness is weakening. Some who survived said they thought they were going to die. Do you know how bad you must be suffering to feel like that? Did you ever see anybody in pain and distress before?

The only two ways to stop this virus is to catch it, develop an immunity, and then get better. The second way of course is a vaccine.

So if this drug can give people more comfort, a better chance at survival until they do develop an immunity, then what's wrong with using it??

Because this drug can kill them, or leave them blind or in kidney failure. That's why.

Again, show me a prescription medication that has no possible side effects. We've been using it for malaria for decades.

First of all, the side effects from hydroxychloroquine are likely far more severe than what is listed as very unlikely side effects from other drugs.
Second is that hydroxychloroquine does NOT at all increase the survival rate of people who get COVID-19 but do not get a dangerously high fever.
It is ONLY for the high fever, and nothing else.
It not only does nothing for the pneumonia, but it can CAUSE pneumonia.

https://www.jacionline.org/article/S0091-6749(05)03402-0/fulltext

{...
CONCLUSIONS: Hydroxychloroquine exerts its effect on the immune system by decreasing lymphocyte proliferation and pro-inflammatory cytokines such as TNF-alpha. These are potential mechanisms that can render a host susceptible to infections such as pneumonia. This patient had evidence of selective IgG2 deficiency that correlated with administration of hydroxychloroquine. This is a previously unrecognized alteration of the humoral immune system by this medication.
...}

If you do not have an extremely high fever, not only will Hydroxychloroquine do absolutely no good at all, but it can actually kill you on its own.

Good point, so I guess opt for the second choice--dying.

You missed the point, which is that what prevents most people from dying from COVID-19 is their own immune system.
But what Hydroxychloroquine does is inhibit the immune system response.
So that will increase your chances of not just getting COVID-19, but dying from it.
The ONLY time Hydroxychloroquine can be helpful with COVID-19 is if the person is already dying from an overly strong immune response.
You can tell when that is happening by the extremely high fever.
So then and only then, Hydroxychloroquine can prevent a COVID-19 death, by inhibiting the immune system, and bringing down what would otherwise be a fatal fever.

 

[okfine]

Hydroxychloroquine, sold as Plaquenil, is a very safe drug. It has been in use with many malaria, lupus and rheumatoid arthritis patients for decades. The question is whether it is effective against COVID-19. It might help to take a step back and look at terminology:

"Anecdotal evidence," in science, means evidence of an outcome not covered in a repeatable trial. It doesn't mean "out of left field," and the casual use of anecdotal evidence to indicate something with less credibility than a rumor isn't the same thing. Chloroquine is a toxic substance used to treat drug-resistant malaria cases, as a preferred alternative to letting the patient die. It is also used in fish tank cleaners. Not the same thing as hydroxychloroquine.

Medicine is the most primitive of our sciences, and one reason is that it is part science, part art. When science fails, the physician is left with art. When chemoradiation failed with my bladder cancer, my oncologist and I discussed alternatives. He had read the preliminary literature on a drug used for other purposes which he felt might work on my cancer; I read the material and concurred. I was recently discharged as cancer-free. Sometimes, when science cannot give a physician the answers he wants to have, the physician has to turn to art. What has worked under what circumstances with what kinds of patients with what symptoms in the past, and is there evidence of success in situations similar to those involving me and this patient? If the choices are between near-certain death and using a safe pill that will probably work, a physician's choice is pretty clear. That does not mean the physician believes that the drug has been proven effective to the gold standard of success in multiple repeatable trials. Thousands of physicians around the world treating hundreds of thousands of patients are prescribing hydroxychloroquine wearing their "artist" hat, not their "scientist" hat.

In the 1980s, after medical school, I was practicing psychiatry in Europe and became aware that manic-depressive patients, now called bipolar, were getting relief from use of anticonvulsants. I read the limited literature, talked with pharmacists and neurologists, and concluded that anticonvulsants were worth a try, because the alternative was antipsychotics, all of which had serious, bad side-effects. I explained my rationale to my patients, and prescribed the safest, oldest, anticonvulsants I could find for some bipolar patients. Today, anticonvulsants are proven to work in patients with bipolar disorder. The oath I took begins "First, do no harm." It does not begin, "First, do nothing."

Not really disagreeing much except that Plaquenil is not really benign and does have lots of potential and risky side effects. The only advantage with COVID-19 is to treat when the fever has become severe, and it is only for the fever that Planquenil is useful.

{...
Plaquenil Side Effects
...
Check with your doctor immediately if any of the following side effects occur while taking hydroxychloroquine:
Incidence not known

• Blistering, peeling, loosening of the skin
• blurred vision or other vision changes
• chest discomfort, pain, or tightness
• cough or hoarseness
• dark urine
• decreased urination
• defective color vision
• diarrhea
• difficulty breathing
• difficulty seeing at night
• dizziness or fainting
• fast, pounding, uneven heartbeat
• feeling that others are watching you or controlling your behavior
• feeling that others can hear your thoughts
• feeling, seeing, or hearing things that are not there
• fever with or without chills
• general feeling of tiredness or weakness
• headache
• inability to move the eyes
• increased blinking or spasms of the eyelid
• joint or muscle pain
• large, hive-like swelling on the face, eyelids, lips, tongue, throat, hands, legs, feet, and sex organs
• loss of hearing
• lower back or side pain
• noisy breathing
• painful or difficult urination
• red irritated eyes
• red skin lesions, often with a purple center
• severe mood or mental changes
• sore throat sores, ulcers, or white spots on the lips or in the mouth
• sticking out of the tongue
• stomach pain
• swelling of the feet or lower legs
• swollen or painful glands
• trouble with breathing, speaking, or swallowing
• uncontrolled twisting movements of the neck, trunk, arms, or legs
• unusual behavior
• unusual bleeding or bruising
• unusual facial expressions
• unusual tiredness or weakness
• yellow eyes or skin

...}

Those are more extreme than the typical side effects of most drugs.

Here are the side effects of Metformin, a drug I take:

• Abdominal or stomach discomfort
• cough or hoarseness
• decreased appetite
• diarrhea
• fast or shallow breathing
• fever or chills
• general feeling of discomfort
• lower back or side pain
• muscle pain or cramping
• painful or difficult urination
• sleepiness
• Anxiety
• blurred vision
• chest discomfort
• cold sweats
• coma
• confusion
• cool, pale skin
• depression
• difficult or labored breathing
• dizziness
• fast, irregular, pounding, or racing heartbeat or pulse
• feeling of warmth
• headache
• increased hunger
• increased sweating
• nausea
• nervousness
• nightmares
• redness of the face, neck, arms, and occasionally, upper chest
• seizures
• shakiness
• slurred speech
• tightness in the chest
• unusual tiredness or weakness
• Behavior change similar to being drunk
• difficulty with concentrating
• drowsiness
• lack or loss of strength
• restless sleep
• unusual sleepiness

Sounds like many drug side affects. Most tag the heart.

I looked at Ibuprofen, and it's worse.

That is why patients are told to take acetaminophen over both aspirin/ibuprofen.