God Is The Original Mathematician

[Taz]

Because man fell, he subjected himself to labor pains, disease, and death. And he still suffers those maladies, correct?

Yes, obviously he still suffers those maladies.

Man didn't fall, Adam did.

Um, the context is the Bible here, Sparky, which says, "For as in Adam all die."

That was two thousand years ago, of course.

To then blame everything bad that god does on man is a total cop-out, man.

Different time, different place. The context of man's fall is two thousand years plus.

All f humanity didn't fall, just Adam. He doesn't speak for me. Like you say, that was ... well... never.

By man, I mean Adam. I don't mean the people of Nod or anyone else from whom Israel did not proceed.

So Adam falls and god blames everything thereafter on us? That doesn't even make any sense.

When you read a biography of Abraham Lincoln, do you think you're reading a biography that includes you?

Try to keep up, eh. I didn't "us." I said Israel. Now go away; I was having a discussion with JAG.

So Adam falls and god blames everything afterwards on Israel? I'm just trying to figure out the real story.

The best place to start, then, is the beginning. Wouldn't you say?

Who do you think Adam was, and what do you think he fell from?

Adam was most likely the first alien-made human. Before that we were an ape-like species for millions of years.

"Weren't Adam & Eve booted from the Garden for having hetero sex?"__Taz

"So if you use your god-given free will, god won't be happy unless you get his
son to save you. Isn't that kind of like the firemen who lights fires to be a hero?"__Taz

I want you to know that I know that you are merely trying to "jerk my chain" or
"rattle my cage" --- but that's alright because it gives me an opportunity to
call your attention to some Bible verses which is one of the things I do.

"For whoever wants to save their life will lose it, but whoever loses their
life for me will find it. What good will it be for someone to gain the
whole world, yet forfeit their soul? Or what can anyone give in exchange
for their soul?"___the Lord Jesus Matthew 16:25-26

____________


“Lord,” Martha said to Jesus, “if you had been here, my brother
would not have died. But I know that even now God will give
you whatever you ask.”

Jesus said to her, “Your brother will rise again.”

Martha answered, “I know he will rise again in the resurrection
at the last day.”

Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. The one
who believes in me will live, even though they die; and
whoever lives by believing in me will never die. Do you
believe this?”

“Yes, Lord,” she replied, “I believe that you are the Messiah,
the Son of God, who is to come into the world.”
John chapter 11

JAG

``

So Jesus is into re-incarnation. Did they copy that from the older Eastern religions?

And what's the deal about quoting a book to answer every question? God can only be found in a book?

Chain yanking, well ok, a bit maybe... But I'm always curious to exchange with believers who are convinced that an invisible superbeing exists, and then when I dig a little deeper, their beliefs are always resting on a house of cards, if that. Like you, you quote a book to find god. Seems kind of lame, shouldn't we be able to find god in a real way?

"So Jesus is into re-incarnation. Did they copy that from
the older Eastern religions?

And what's the deal about quoting a book to answer
every question? God can only be found in a book?

Chain yanking, well ok, a bit maybe... But I'm always
curious to exchange with believers who are convinced
that an invisible superbeing exists, and then when I
dig a little deeper, their beliefs are always resting
on a house of cards, if that. Like you, you quote a
book to find god. Seems kind of lame, shouldn't
we be able to find god in a real way?"__Taz

No to your reincarnation point.

Regarding your "book" point:

" , , , while evildoers and impostors will go from bad to worse,
deceiving and being deceived. But as for you, continue in
what you have learned and have become convinced of,
because you know those from whom you learned it,
and how from infancy you have known the Holy
Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for
salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. All
Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for
teaching, rebuking, correcting and training
in righteousness, so that the servant of
God may be thoroughly equipped for
every good work. "___2 Timothy 3:13-17

Note the particulars:
{1} Timothy knew the Holy Scriptures from infancy.

{2} The Holy Scriptures are able to make one wise so they
can be saved.

{3} The Holy Scriptures tell us about salvation through the
Lord Jesus.

{4} All Scripture is God-breathed {this means God-inspired}

{5} The Holy Scriptures enable one to be thoroughly equipped
for every good work

So?

So the one and only way you will ever come to know the truth
and come to know the Person of God is through reading His
book the Holy Bible.

The mockery and ridicule of a book as the means of coming to
know and believe in God nothing but a lame excuse for one
using their Free Will to make a choice -- a choice NOT to
believe in God so they can de facto, remain their own god
and live like they want to live and ignore the God that created
them.

By the way, all men know there is a God that created them and
the Universe.

Just because some men say they lack belief in the existence of God
does not mean they actually DO lack belief in the existence of God.

The truth is they DO have knowledge of God.

Romans 1:18 says that some humans "suppress the truth" about
the knowledge of God.

Romans 1:19-20 says , , ,
"since what may be known about God is plain to them, because
God has made it plain to them. For since the creation of the world
God's invisible qualities-his eternal power and divine nature-have
been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made,
so that people are without excuse."

Note the particulars in Romans 1:19-20

{1) There is information that can be known about God.

{2} This information is plain to men.

{3} God Himself has made it plain to them.

{4} It has been plain to them since the creation of the world.

{5} God's eternal power and divine nature have been clearly seen.

{6} All this in understood from what God created.

{7} Therefore men are without excuse {for not believing in God.}

JAG

``

So your answer to my questioning the sanity of quoting a book for every answer is to answer with a quote from a book. Seriously brah, who's pulling whose chain?

So not reincarnation, was it Zombie Jesus?

 

[norwegen]

JAG Writes:
I LOVE science. True science. My view is that God LOVES
true science too, for example Math , , ,

My view is that Math originated in the nature of God who
is the Original Mathematician --- just as all the other
disciplines also originated in the nature of God.

God Is The , , ,
Original Mathematician
Original Physicist
Original Cosmologist
Original Inventor
Original Artist
Original Scientist
Original Oceanographer
Original Philosopher
Original Epistemologist
Original Empiricist
Original Poet
Original Writer
Original Lover {wanting the best for others}
Original Chooser { Volition }
Original Economist
Original Emotion-ist {the full range of All Good Emotions}
Original Planner
Original Creator
Original Designer
Original Technologist
Original Educator
Original Everything Good , , ,

, , and we humans participate in all that up there since we are
made in the image of God , , ,

, , and that above is why human beings, made in the image of God,
have been able to build the modern world and will be able to keep making
progress in Science and Technology for ever and ever, even when the
human race makes the transition from Earthly human history to Eternity.

Humans are made in the image of God and God has , ,
~ An Intellect --- and so do we humans
~ Emotions --- and so do we humans
~ Volition {a Will, the ability to choose -- and so do we humans

God's Human Race Project ends victoriously.

Long live science. True science.

JAG


``

Well JAG,

By definition, the universe cannot exist without physical laws which are consistent wherever you go.

And mathematics is the language of science which describes the physical universe.

God not only invented math, at some level some kind of mathematics must describe who and what he is.

God is the perfect, all-encompassing equation.

So why does god make deformed children who suffer constant pain?

Are you an atheist?

I'm agnostic and see no proof either for or against the existence of a god. But leave the door open if anyone comes up with real proof either way. Can't be any fairer than that.

Sure. I'm 99.99% confident that God is real, but I cannot prove it.

But what I'm asking is that if god exists, why does he make, or have in his realm, children who suffer so terribly? What would be its rationale for that?

I don't know.
If God exists, is it your belief that he is "evil" for permitting suffering?

I'm just curious as to why a god would make children suffer horrible pain and deformities.

"I'm just curious as to why a god would make children suffer horrible pain and deformities."___Taz

The Biblical answer is:
God made the world perfect.
God made humans perfect.
There was no sickness, pain, or death.
Mankind chose to sin and therefore the Sin Principle was introduced into the human race.
The Sin Principle brought suffering, pain, and death.
____________

Yet God did not leave humans alone in our suffering and pain.
He sent His Son the Lord Jesus to "fix the problem" with a gradual long term solution of ultimate restoration.
The problem is now fixed through the gradual process of restoring the human race.

You would be much happier of you "joined in" that process as a Christian and
made your contribution as a Christian to make this world a better place.

Here is a list of the top 10 Christian Organizations that make the world a better
place and they work hard to alleviate the suffering in the world as they
follow the example of the Lord Jesus. And these top 10 are only a tiny part of
the HUGE-ENORMOUS efforts of worldwide Christendom to make the world a
better place by helping ease the world's suffering.

The Top Ten Christian Charities
1. Samaritan’s Purse: Helping in Jesus’ Name
2. Compassion International
3. Lutheran World Relief: Sustainable Development, Lasting Promise
4. Operation Blessing International: Breaking the Cycle of Suffering
5. Advancing Native Missions: Learn, Connect, Engage
6. Children’s Hunger Fund: Gospel-Centered Mercy Ministry
7. The Salvation Army: Doing the Most Good
8. Catholic Relief Services: Faith, Action, Results
9. Lifeline Christian Mission: Restoring Hope Among the Nations
10. Food For The Poor: Saving Lives, Transforming Communities, Renewing Hope
The Top 10 Most Amazing Christian Charities - Theology Degrees

__________

Taz,

Give some thought to joining us.
John 3:16
"For God so loved the world that He gave His one and only Son that whoever
believes on Him shall not perish but have Eternal Life.
{1} believe and get Eternal Life
{2} refuse to believe and perish

JAG

PS
In all systems "all is well that ends well" and on Christianity all ends very well.

"And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “Look! God’s dwelling
place is now among the people, and he will dwell with them. They will be
his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God. He will
wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death’ or mourning
or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away.”
Revelation 21:3-4

Best.


JAG

``

"Perfect" humans erred. They gave in to temptation and sin.

Does the Genesis account of creation say that the world was perfect? (And I'm assuming by world, you mean the planet, an assumption that just adds to the confusion.) Was the Garden of Eden even perfect? A garden where an adversary lived and was able to peddle his fruit?

Personally, I say just let Taz prattle. He's asking an age-old question of traditional teachings, and isn't going to find an answer there, anyway.

""Perfect" humans erred. They gave in to temptation and sin.

Does the Genesis account of creation say that the world was perfect?
(And I'm assuming by world, you mean the planet, an assumption
that just adds to the confusion.) Was the Garden of Eden even
perfect? A garden where an adversary lived and was able to peddle
his fruit?

Personally, I say just let Taz prattle. He's asking an age-old question
of traditional teachings, and isn't going to find an answer there,
anyway."___Norwegen

There is no point in arguing over the definition of a word {perfect}.
If you don't like "perfect" you can pick another word. The point is
that on Biblical Christianity, there was a Fall into sin. God made
man un-fallen --- can we use the word "un-fallen"? So what
happened? Here is what happened: Un-fallen man fell into
sin and introduced the hideous dangerous Sin Principle
which brought pain in childbearing, disease, and death.

None of this would have happened if mankind had
not Fallen into sin. If you eliminate The Fall then
you eliminate Sin and if you eliminate Sin you
eliminate the need for a Savior and then
we have eliminated the New Testament and
eliminated Christendom and reduced it to
nothing more than some decent moral
instructions.

Best.

JAG

``

Because man fell, he subjected himself to labor pains, disease, and death. And he still suffers those maladies, correct?

Yes, obviously he still suffers those maladies.

Yes he still suffers from those maladies -- thus Saint Jude's Hospital that
treats children with cancer --- just one example among many, another is
Samaritan's Purse whose motto is "Helping In Jesus' Name", they are
a huge Christian Charity Organization that helps alleviate the suffering
in the world caused by the Sin Principle. I expect you agree with all
this.

JAG

``

Yes, I believe man experiences these kinds of maladies now, just like he did after he fell. You and I agree.

I also believe labor pains, death, and disease occurred in the Garden.

"Yes, I believe man experiences these kinds of maladies now, just like he did after he fell. You and I agree.

I also believe labor pains, death, and disease occurred in the Garden."__Norwegen

Amen to all that.

JAG

``

If man experienced death and other such natural maladies in the garden, and he experienced those same maladies after expulsion, then how did he fall?

"If man experienced death and other such natural maladies
in the garden, and he experienced those same maladies
after expulsion, then how did he fall?"___Norwegen

Man experienced those maladies in the garden AFTER
the Fall and not BEFORE the Fall.

JAG

Oh. I thought that when you agreed that labor pains, disease, and death occurred in the Garden, you meant before the fall. That was what I meant.

Now I know you're consistent with your earlier posts; man's fall was biological.

Man's anatomy changed. Wildlife anatomy changed. The "world" was recreated. And so the confusion starts. But I'm more curious about the events that occured centuries later.

When the Messiah came to deliver Israel from her waywardness, did he fail? Labor pains, disease, and death still afflict humanity.

As I alluded to earlier, labor pains were not new to Adam after he forsook God's fruit to partake of Satan's. The pain of childbirth was merely multiplied, as Genesis 2:16 tells us. After his fall, Adam labored in sorrow, as the succeeding verses imply.

Why would God have created another earth because a man and his wife ate a pear? If man really did break the creation in such a fashion, how did Jesus fix it?

 

[JAG]

Because man fell, he subjected himself to labor pains, disease, and death. And he still suffers those maladies, correct?

Yes, obviously he still suffers those maladies.

Man didn't fall, Adam did.

Um, the context is the Bible here, Sparky, which says, "For as in Adam all die."

That was two thousand years ago, of course.

To then blame everything bad that god does on man is a total cop-out, man.

Different time, different place. The context of man's fall is two thousand years plus.

All f humanity didn't fall, just Adam. He doesn't speak for me. Like you say, that was ... well... never.

By man, I mean Adam. I don't mean the people of Nod or anyone else from whom Israel did not proceed.

So Adam falls and god blames everything thereafter on us? That doesn't even make any sense.

When you read a biography of Abraham Lincoln, do you think you're reading a biography that includes you?

Try to keep up, eh. I didn't "us." I said Israel. Now go away; I was having a discussion with JAG.

So Adam falls and god blames everything afterwards on Israel? I'm just trying to figure out the real story.

The best place to start, then, is the beginning. Wouldn't you say?

Who do you think Adam was, and what do you think he fell from?

Adam was most likely the first alien-made human. Before that we were an ape-like species for millions of years.

"Weren't Adam & Eve booted from the Garden for having hetero sex?"__Taz

"So if you use your god-given free will, god won't be happy unless you get his
son to save you. Isn't that kind of like the firemen who lights fires to be a hero?"__Taz

I want you to know that I know that you are merely trying to "jerk my chain" or
"rattle my cage" --- but that's alright because it gives me an opportunity to
call your attention to some Bible verses which is one of the things I do.

"For whoever wants to save their life will lose it, but whoever loses their
life for me will find it. What good will it be for someone to gain the
whole world, yet forfeit their soul? Or what can anyone give in exchange
for their soul?"___the Lord Jesus Matthew 16:25-26

____________


“Lord,” Martha said to Jesus, “if you had been here, my brother
would not have died. But I know that even now God will give
you whatever you ask.”

Jesus said to her, “Your brother will rise again.”

Martha answered, “I know he will rise again in the resurrection
at the last day.”

Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. The one
who believes in me will live, even though they die; and
whoever lives by believing in me will never die. Do you
believe this?”

“Yes, Lord,” she replied, “I believe that you are the Messiah,
the Son of God, who is to come into the world.”
John chapter 11

JAG

``

So Jesus is into re-incarnation. Did they copy that from the older Eastern religions?

And what's the deal about quoting a book to answer every question? God can only be found in a book?

Chain yanking, well ok, a bit maybe... But I'm always curious to exchange with believers who are convinced that an invisible superbeing exists, and then when I dig a little deeper, their beliefs are always resting on a house of cards, if that. Like you, you quote a book to find god. Seems kind of lame, shouldn't we be able to find god in a real way?

"So Jesus is into re-incarnation. Did they copy that from
the older Eastern religions?

And what's the deal about quoting a book to answer
every question? God can only be found in a book?

Chain yanking, well ok, a bit maybe... But I'm always
curious to exchange with believers who are convinced
that an invisible superbeing exists, and then when I
dig a little deeper, their beliefs are always resting
on a house of cards, if that. Like you, you quote a
book to find god. Seems kind of lame, shouldn't
we be able to find god in a real way?"__Taz

No to your reincarnation point.

Regarding your "book" point:

" , , , while evildoers and impostors will go from bad to worse,
deceiving and being deceived. But as for you, continue in
what you have learned and have become convinced of,
because you know those from whom you learned it,
and how from infancy you have known the Holy
Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for
salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. All
Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for
teaching, rebuking, correcting and training
in righteousness, so that the servant of
God may be thoroughly equipped for
every good work. "___2 Timothy 3:13-17

Note the particulars:
{1} Timothy knew the Holy Scriptures from infancy.

{2} The Holy Scriptures are able to make one wise so they
can be saved.

{3} The Holy Scriptures tell us about salvation through the
Lord Jesus.

{4} All Scripture is God-breathed {this means God-inspired}

{5} The Holy Scriptures enable one to be thoroughly equipped
for every good work

So?

So the one and only way you will ever come to know the truth
and come to know the Person of God is through reading His
book the Holy Bible.

The mockery and ridicule of a book as the means of coming to
know and believe in God nothing but a lame excuse for one
using their Free Will to make a choice -- a choice NOT to
believe in God so they can de facto, remain their own god
and live like they want to live and ignore the God that created
them.

By the way, all men know there is a God that created them and
the Universe.

Just because some men say they lack belief in the existence of God
does not mean they actually DO lack belief in the existence of God.

The truth is they DO have knowledge of God.

Romans 1:18 says that some humans "suppress the truth" about
the knowledge of God.

Romans 1:19-20 says , , ,
"since what may be known about God is plain to them, because
God has made it plain to them. For since the creation of the world
God's invisible qualities-his eternal power and divine nature-have
been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made,
so that people are without excuse."

Note the particulars in Romans 1:19-20

{1) There is information that can be known about God.

{2} This information is plain to men.

{3} God Himself has made it plain to them.

{4} It has been plain to them since the creation of the world.

{5} God's eternal power and divine nature have been clearly seen.

{6} All this in understood from what God created.

{7} Therefore men are without excuse {for not believing in God.}

JAG

``

So your answer to my questioning the sanity of quoting a book for every answer is to answer with a quote from a book. Seriously brah, who's pulling whose chain?

So not reincarnation, was it Zombie Jesus?

"So your answer to my questioning the sanity of quoting a book
for every answer is to answer with a quote from a book. Seriously
brah, who's pulling whose chain? ___Taz

Christianity is a Religion Of The Book.

Christianity is a Faith and NOT an intellectualized philosophical
academic system that is based on Rationalism and Empiricism.
If you are looking for that -- you do not want Christianity
because there will never come a time when Faith is eliminated
from Christianity.
Mock the Religion Of The Book to your heart's content -- but
that's what Christianity is.

It would be much better for your soul if you stopped mocking and
ridiculing the Faith of the God that created you and gave you
life --- and pray that you are one of them that has been given
to the Lord Jesus by the Father.
"All those the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever
comes to me I will never drive away."___The Lord Jesus
John 6:37

It would be much better for your eternal soul if you spent the
time you spend mocking the Faith of the God that created you,
praying that you are one of them that will be drawn to the
Lord Jesus by His father.
“Stop grumbling among your selves, ”Jesus answered.
“No one can come to me unless the Father who sent
me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last
day. "__The Lord Jesus John 6:43-44

____________

"So not reincarnation, was it Zombie Jesus?"__Taz
That kind of foolishness does not deserve a serious
reply.

JAG

 

[Taz]

Because man fell, he subjected himself to labor pains, disease, and death. And he still suffers those maladies, correct?

Yes, obviously he still suffers those maladies.

Man didn't fall, Adam did.

Um, the context is the Bible here, Sparky, which says, "For as in Adam all die."

That was two thousand years ago, of course.

To then blame everything bad that god does on man is a total cop-out, man.

Different time, different place. The context of man's fall is two thousand years plus.

All f humanity didn't fall, just Adam. He doesn't speak for me. Like you say, that was ... well... never.

By man, I mean Adam. I don't mean the people of Nod or anyone else from whom Israel did not proceed.

So Adam falls and god blames everything thereafter on us? That doesn't even make any sense.

When you read a biography of Abraham Lincoln, do you think you're reading a biography that includes you?

Try to keep up, eh. I didn't "us." I said Israel. Now go away; I was having a discussion with JAG.

So Adam falls and god blames everything afterwards on Israel? I'm just trying to figure out the real story.

The best place to start, then, is the beginning. Wouldn't you say?

Who do you think Adam was, and what do you think he fell from?

Adam was most likely the first alien-made human. Before that we were an ape-like species for millions of years.

"Weren't Adam & Eve booted from the Garden for having hetero sex?"__Taz

"So if you use your god-given free will, god won't be happy unless you get his
son to save you. Isn't that kind of like the firemen who lights fires to be a hero?"__Taz

I want you to know that I know that you are merely trying to "jerk my chain" or
"rattle my cage" --- but that's alright because it gives me an opportunity to
call your attention to some Bible verses which is one of the things I do.

"For whoever wants to save their life will lose it, but whoever loses their
life for me will find it. What good will it be for someone to gain the
whole world, yet forfeit their soul? Or what can anyone give in exchange
for their soul?"___the Lord Jesus Matthew 16:25-26

____________


“Lord,” Martha said to Jesus, “if you had been here, my brother
would not have died. But I know that even now God will give
you whatever you ask.”

Jesus said to her, “Your brother will rise again.”

Martha answered, “I know he will rise again in the resurrection
at the last day.”

Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. The one
who believes in me will live, even though they die; and
whoever lives by believing in me will never die. Do you
believe this?”

“Yes, Lord,” she replied, “I believe that you are the Messiah,
the Son of God, who is to come into the world.”
John chapter 11

JAG

``

So Jesus is into re-incarnation. Did they copy that from the older Eastern religions?

And what's the deal about quoting a book to answer every question? God can only be found in a book?

Chain yanking, well ok, a bit maybe... But I'm always curious to exchange with believers who are convinced that an invisible superbeing exists, and then when I dig a little deeper, their beliefs are always resting on a house of cards, if that. Like you, you quote a book to find god. Seems kind of lame, shouldn't we be able to find god in a real way?

"So Jesus is into re-incarnation. Did they copy that from
the older Eastern religions?

And what's the deal about quoting a book to answer
every question? God can only be found in a book?

Chain yanking, well ok, a bit maybe... But I'm always
curious to exchange with believers who are convinced
that an invisible superbeing exists, and then when I
dig a little deeper, their beliefs are always resting
on a house of cards, if that. Like you, you quote a
book to find god. Seems kind of lame, shouldn't
we be able to find god in a real way?"__Taz

No to your reincarnation point.

Regarding your "book" point:

" , , , while evildoers and impostors will go from bad to worse,
deceiving and being deceived. But as for you, continue in
what you have learned and have become convinced of,
because you know those from whom you learned it,
and how from infancy you have known the Holy
Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for
salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. All
Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for
teaching, rebuking, correcting and training
in righteousness, so that the servant of
God may be thoroughly equipped for
every good work. "___2 Timothy 3:13-17

Note the particulars:
{1} Timothy knew the Holy Scriptures from infancy.

{2} The Holy Scriptures are able to make one wise so they
can be saved.

{3} The Holy Scriptures tell us about salvation through the
Lord Jesus.

{4} All Scripture is God-breathed {this means God-inspired}

{5} The Holy Scriptures enable one to be thoroughly equipped
for every good work

So?

So the one and only way you will ever come to know the truth
and come to know the Person of God is through reading His
book the Holy Bible.

The mockery and ridicule of a book as the means of coming to
know and believe in God nothing but a lame excuse for one
using their Free Will to make a choice -- a choice NOT to
believe in God so they can de facto, remain their own god
and live like they want to live and ignore the God that created
them.

By the way, all men know there is a God that created them and
the Universe.

Just because some men say they lack belief in the existence of God
does not mean they actually DO lack belief in the existence of God.

The truth is they DO have knowledge of God.

Romans 1:18 says that some humans "suppress the truth" about
the knowledge of God.

Romans 1:19-20 says , , ,
"since what may be known about God is plain to them, because
God has made it plain to them. For since the creation of the world
God's invisible qualities-his eternal power and divine nature-have
been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made,
so that people are without excuse."

Note the particulars in Romans 1:19-20

{1) There is information that can be known about God.

{2} This information is plain to men.

{3} God Himself has made it plain to them.

{4} It has been plain to them since the creation of the world.

{5} God's eternal power and divine nature have been clearly seen.

{6} All this in understood from what God created.

{7} Therefore men are without excuse {for not believing in God.}

JAG

``

So your answer to my questioning the sanity of quoting a book for every answer is to answer with a quote from a book. Seriously brah, who's pulling whose chain?

So not reincarnation, was it Zombie Jesus?

"So your answer to my questioning the sanity of quoting a book
for every answer is to answer with a quote from a book. Seriously
brah, who's pulling whose chain? ___Taz

Christianity is a Religion Of The Book.

Christianity is a Faith and NOT an intellectualized philosophical
academic system that is based on Rationalism and Empiricism.
If you are looking for that -- you do not want Christianity
because there will never come a time when Faith is eliminated
from Christianity.
Mock the Religion Of The Book to your heart's content -- but
that's what Christianity is.

It would be much better for your soul if you stopped mocking and
ridiculing the Faith of the God that created you and gave you
life --- and pray that you are one of them that has been given
to the Lord Jesus by the Father.
"All those the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever
comes to me I will never drive away."___The Lord Jesus
John 6:37

It would be much better for your eternal soul if you spent the
time you spend mocking the Faith of the God that created you,
praying that you are one of them that will be drawn to the
Lord Jesus by His father.
“Stop grumbling among your selves, ”Jesus answered.
“No one can come to me unless the Father who sent
me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last
day. "__The Lord Jesus John 6:43-44

____________

"So not reincarnation, was it Zombie Jesus?"__Taz
That kind of foolishness does not deserve a serious
reply.

JAG

So if it’s a book religion, why is it god’s religion? He need a book too?

But how do you know that the bible is true and that we can only find god through a book?

 

[JAG]

"Oh. I thought that when you agreed that labor pains, disease,
and death occurred in the Garden, you meant before the fall.
That was what I meant.
Now I know you're consistent with your earlier posts;"___Norwegen

Noted.

"man's fall was biological."__Norwegen
My view is not biological, but spiritual.
The biology came after the fall and was
the by-product of the spiritual Fall
based on willful disobedience to a
known command of God -- a simple
test to determine who would be God?
{1} God
or
{2} Adam and Eve.

Adam and Eve decided, de facto, that THEY
would be God -- and God would NOT be God.

"Man's anatomy changed. Wildlife anatomy changed.
The "world" was recreated. And so the confusion starts.
But I'm more curious about the events that occured
centuries later."__Norwegen
I would use the word cursed instead of recreated.
{sorry to be "picky" I'm only giving you my view.}


"When the Messiah came to deliver Israel from her
waywardness, did he fail? Labor pains, disease, and
death still afflict humanity."__Norwegen
My view is that Israel was the party that failed.

Israel rejected the Kingdom and God finally and
at last completely rejected Israel and delivered
the carcass of dead apostate Judaism over to
the Roman army that, under the Roman General
Titus, devoured the carcass of apostate Judaism
in 70 A.D. My view is that God is finished with
the nation of Israel in the sense that Israel
now is just like every other nation on earth
and does not any longer hold any special
status.
Titus destroyed The Temple and destroyed the
Jewish nation.
The Jews cried out "We have no king but Caesar"
and "Crucify Him, Crucify Him."
They said we will not have this man to reign
over us.
So?
So God took them at their word and destroyed
them as a nation.

As I alluded to earlier, labor pains were not new to
Adam after he forsook God's fruit to partake of
Satan's. __Norwegen
Agreed.

The pain of childbirth was merely multiplied,
as Genesis 2:16 tells us. "Norwegen
My view is there was zero childbirth labor
pains BEFORE the Fall. The command to be
fruitful and multiply was given BEFORE the
Fall and and there would have been zero
labor pains. Eve and all females would have
birthed children with zero pain -- if they had
not chosen to, de facto, become God.
They "said" de facto, We will NOT obey you.


"After his fall, Adam labored in sorrow, as the
succeeding verses imply."__Norwegen
Agreed.

"Why would God have created another earth
because a man and his wife ate a pear?"__Norwegen
My view is that God did not create another Earth
after the Fall --- but Jesus will do that in the far future.
"I am making everything new"__The Lord Jesus
Revelation 21:5
My view is Jesus will make everything new through
His Christian Church which is at the present time
merely in the Third Grade historically speaking
and we have mega-millenniums to go before we
graduate up to the being a Senior in High School,
so to speak.

"If man really did break the creation in such a fashion,
how did Jesus fix it?"__Norwegen
My view is Jesus fixed it through His Christian Church'
which will be successful in carrying our Jesus' Great
Commission to go into all the world and make
disciples of all nations {see the ending of Matthew
chapter 28}
This means that the Christian Church will actually
Christianize the world and that the human race,
as a race, will be salvaged -- not that every last
person will be Christianized but rather the vast
huge majority will be salvaged. God's Human
Race Project will end in Victory and NOT defeat.

He Shall Have Dominion -- Jesus Shall Have
Dominion -

Christ "shall have dominion from sea to sea" Psalm 22:8

"the whole earth will be filled with His glory" Psalm 22:19

"all nations will call Him blessed" Psalm 22:17

Jesus really meant it when He told His disciples to "go and
make disciples of all nations" Matthew 28:19

Best

JAG

PS
I am an orthodox Bible believing Postmillennialist,
This means I hold to a bright cheerful optimistic
upward mobile positive constructive view of the
future of God's Human race Project and the future
of worldwide Christendom.

Victory.

norwegen


``

 

[JAG]

Because man fell, he subjected himself to labor pains, disease, and death. And he still suffers those maladies, correct?

Yes, obviously he still suffers those maladies.

Man didn't fall, Adam did.

Um, the context is the Bible here, Sparky, which says, "For as in Adam all die."

That was two thousand years ago, of course.

To then blame everything bad that god does on man is a total cop-out, man.

Different time, different place. The context of man's fall is two thousand years plus.

All f humanity didn't fall, just Adam. He doesn't speak for me. Like you say, that was ... well... never.

By man, I mean Adam. I don't mean the people of Nod or anyone else from whom Israel did not proceed.

So Adam falls and god blames everything thereafter on us? That doesn't even make any sense.

When you read a biography of Abraham Lincoln, do you think you're reading a biography that includes you?

Try to keep up, eh. I didn't "us." I said Israel. Now go away; I was having a discussion with JAG.

So Adam falls and god blames everything afterwards on Israel? I'm just trying to figure out the real story.

The best place to start, then, is the beginning. Wouldn't you say?

Who do you think Adam was, and what do you think he fell from?

Adam was most likely the first alien-made human. Before that we were an ape-like species for millions of years.

"Weren't Adam & Eve booted from the Garden for having hetero sex?"__Taz

"So if you use your god-given free will, god won't be happy unless you get his
son to save you. Isn't that kind of like the firemen who lights fires to be a hero?"__Taz

I want you to know that I know that you are merely trying to "jerk my chain" or
"rattle my cage" --- but that's alright because it gives me an opportunity to
call your attention to some Bible verses which is one of the things I do.

"For whoever wants to save their life will lose it, but whoever loses their
life for me will find it. What good will it be for someone to gain the
whole world, yet forfeit their soul? Or what can anyone give in exchange
for their soul?"___the Lord Jesus Matthew 16:25-26

____________


“Lord,” Martha said to Jesus, “if you had been here, my brother
would not have died. But I know that even now God will give
you whatever you ask.”

Jesus said to her, “Your brother will rise again.”

Martha answered, “I know he will rise again in the resurrection
at the last day.”

Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. The one
who believes in me will live, even though they die; and
whoever lives by believing in me will never die. Do you
believe this?”

“Yes, Lord,” she replied, “I believe that you are the Messiah,
the Son of God, who is to come into the world.”
John chapter 11

JAG

``

So Jesus is into re-incarnation. Did they copy that from the older Eastern religions?

And what's the deal about quoting a book to answer every question? God can only be found in a book?

Chain yanking, well ok, a bit maybe... But I'm always curious to exchange with believers who are convinced that an invisible superbeing exists, and then when I dig a little deeper, their beliefs are always resting on a house of cards, if that. Like you, you quote a book to find god. Seems kind of lame, shouldn't we be able to find god in a real way?

"So Jesus is into re-incarnation. Did they copy that from
the older Eastern religions?

And what's the deal about quoting a book to answer
every question? God can only be found in a book?

Chain yanking, well ok, a bit maybe... But I'm always
curious to exchange with believers who are convinced
that an invisible superbeing exists, and then when I
dig a little deeper, their beliefs are always resting
on a house of cards, if that. Like you, you quote a
book to find god. Seems kind of lame, shouldn't
we be able to find god in a real way?"__Taz

No to your reincarnation point.

Regarding your "book" point:

" , , , while evildoers and impostors will go from bad to worse,
deceiving and being deceived. But as for you, continue in
what you have learned and have become convinced of,
because you know those from whom you learned it,
and how from infancy you have known the Holy
Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for
salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. All
Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for
teaching, rebuking, correcting and training
in righteousness, so that the servant of
God may be thoroughly equipped for
every good work. "___2 Timothy 3:13-17

Note the particulars:
{1} Timothy knew the Holy Scriptures from infancy.

{2} The Holy Scriptures are able to make one wise so they
can be saved.

{3} The Holy Scriptures tell us about salvation through the
Lord Jesus.

{4} All Scripture is God-breathed {this means God-inspired}

{5} The Holy Scriptures enable one to be thoroughly equipped
for every good work

So?

So the one and only way you will ever come to know the truth
and come to know the Person of God is through reading His
book the Holy Bible.

The mockery and ridicule of a book as the means of coming to
know and believe in God nothing but a lame excuse for one
using their Free Will to make a choice -- a choice NOT to
believe in God so they can de facto, remain their own god
and live like they want to live and ignore the God that created
them.

By the way, all men know there is a God that created them and
the Universe.

Just because some men say they lack belief in the existence of God
does not mean they actually DO lack belief in the existence of God.

The truth is they DO have knowledge of God.

Romans 1:18 says that some humans "suppress the truth" about
the knowledge of God.

Romans 1:19-20 says , , ,
"since what may be known about God is plain to them, because
God has made it plain to them. For since the creation of the world
God's invisible qualities-his eternal power and divine nature-have
been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made,
so that people are without excuse."

Note the particulars in Romans 1:19-20

{1) There is information that can be known about God.

{2} This information is plain to men.

{3} God Himself has made it plain to them.

{4} It has been plain to them since the creation of the world.

{5} God's eternal power and divine nature have been clearly seen.

{6} All this in understood from what God created.

{7} Therefore men are without excuse {for not believing in God.}

JAG

``

So your answer to my questioning the sanity of quoting a book for every answer is to answer with a quote from a book. Seriously brah, who's pulling whose chain?

So not reincarnation, was it Zombie Jesus?

"So your answer to my questioning the sanity of quoting a book
for every answer is to answer with a quote from a book. Seriously
brah, who's pulling whose chain? ___Taz

Christianity is a Religion Of The Book.

Christianity is a Faith and NOT an intellectualized philosophical
academic system that is based on Rationalism and Empiricism.
If you are looking for that -- you do not want Christianity
because there will never come a time when Faith is eliminated
from Christianity.
Mock the Religion Of The Book to your heart's content -- but
that's what Christianity is.

It would be much better for your soul if you stopped mocking and
ridiculing the Faith of the God that created you and gave you
life --- and pray that you are one of them that has been given
to the Lord Jesus by the Father.
"All those the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever
comes to me I will never drive away."___The Lord Jesus
John 6:37

It would be much better for your eternal soul if you spent the
time you spend mocking the Faith of the God that created you,
praying that you are one of them that will be drawn to the
Lord Jesus by His father.
“Stop grumbling among your selves, ”Jesus answered.
“No one can come to me unless the Father who sent
me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last
day. "__The Lord Jesus John 6:43-44

____________

"So not reincarnation, was it Zombie Jesus?"__Taz
That kind of foolishness does not deserve a serious
reply.

JAG

So if it’s a book religion, why is it god’s religion? He need a book too?

But how do you know that the bible is true and that we can only find god through a book?

"So if it’s a book religion, why is it god’s religion? He need a book too?
But how do you know that the bible is true and that we can only find
god through a book?"__Taz

See Deuteronomy 29:29

Also if you prayed this simple prayer from the heart, then most of your
questions would be answered pretty soon.

"Dear Lord Jesus, I know that I am a sinner, and I ask for Your forgiveness.
I believe You died for my sins and rose from the dead. I turn from my sins
and invite You to come into my heart and life. I want to trust and follow
You as my Lord and Savior. In Your Name."
__from the Billy Graham Crusades

Taz, the truth is you have to become a Christian BEFORE you can understand
Christian spiritual truths.
"The person without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from
the Spirit of God but considers them foolishness, and cannot understand
them because they are discerned only through the Spirit."___1 Corinthians
2:14

JAG

``

 

[norwegen]

"man's fall was biological."__Norwegen
My view is not biological, but spiritual.
The biology came after the fall and was
the by-product of the spiritual Fall
based on willful disobedience to a
known command of God -- a simple
test to determine who would be God?
{1} God
or
{2} Adam and Eve.

Adam and Eve decided, de facto, that THEY
would be God -- and God would NOT be God.

Nonetheless, biology was different before the fall than it was after the fall. Nature was dramatically reconstituted, correct? Lions and tigers were no longer herbivores; now they were carnivores.

"Man's anatomy changed. Wildlife anatomy changed.
The "world" was recreated. And so the confusion starts.
But I'm more curious about the events that occured
centuries later."__Norwegen
I would use the word cursed instead of recreated.
{sorry to be "picky" I'm only giving you my view.}

Your view is that this “curse” resulted in a radical reconfiguring of nature. Man was immortal, I presume, and yet he died.

As I alluded to earlier, labor pains were not new to
Adam after he forsook God's fruit to partake of
Satan's. __Norwegen
Agreed.

The pain of childbirth was merely multiplied,
as Genesis 2:16 tells us. "Norwegen
My view is there was zero childbirth labor
pains BEFORE the Fall. The command to be
fruitful and multiply was given BEFORE the
Fall and and there would have been zero
labor pains. Eve and all females would have
birthed children with zero pain -- if they had
not chosen to, de facto, become God.
They "said" de facto, We will NOT obey you.

You agree that labor pains were not new to Adam, and then say that before he fell, he did not, in fact, experience labor pains. Which is it?

 

[harmonica]

JAG Writes:
I LOVE science. True science. My view is that God LOVES
true science too, for example Math , , ,

My view is that Math originated in the nature of God who
is the Original Mathematician --- just as all the other
disciplines also originated in the nature of God.

God Is The , , ,
Original Mathematician
Original Physicist
Original Cosmologist
Original Inventor
Original Artist
Original Scientist
Original Oceanographer
Original Philosopher
Original Epistemologist
Original Empiricist
Original Poet
Original Writer
Original Lover {wanting the best for others}
Original Chooser { Volition }
Original Economist
Original Emotion-ist {the full range of All Good Emotions}
Original Planner
Original Creator
Original Designer
Original Technologist
Original Educator
Original Everything Good , , ,

, , and we humans participate in all that up there since we are
made in the image of God , , ,

, , and that above is why human beings, made in the image of God,
have been able to build the modern world and will be able to keep making
progress in Science and Technology for ever and ever, even when the
human race makes the transition from Earthly human history to Eternity.

Humans are made in the image of God and God has , ,
~ An Intellect --- and so do we humans
~ Emotions --- and so do we humans
~ Volition {a Will, the ability to choose -- and so do we humans

God's Human Race Project ends victoriously.

Long live science. True science.

JAG


``

Well JAG,

By definition, the universe cannot exist without physical laws which are consistent wherever you go.

And mathematics is the language of science which describes the physical universe.

God not only invented math, at some level some kind of mathematics must describe who and what he is.

God is the perfect, all-encompassing equation.

So why does god make deformed children who suffer constant pain?

Are you an atheist?

you cannot not believe in something that is not there
there is no god--we've been over this many times

 

[harmonica]

JAG Writes:
I LOVE science. True science. My view is that God LOVES
true science too, for example Math , , ,

My view is that Math originated in the nature of God who
is the Original Mathematician --- just as all the other
disciplines also originated in the nature of God.

God Is The , , ,
Original Mathematician
Original Physicist
Original Cosmologist
Original Inventor
Original Artist
Original Scientist
Original Oceanographer
Original Philosopher
Original Epistemologist
Original Empiricist
Original Poet
Original Writer
Original Lover {wanting the best for others}
Original Chooser { Volition }
Original Economist
Original Emotion-ist {the full range of All Good Emotions}
Original Planner
Original Creator
Original Designer
Original Technologist
Original Educator
Original Everything Good , , ,

, , and we humans participate in all that up there since we are
made in the image of God , , ,

, , and that above is why human beings, made in the image of God,
have been able to build the modern world and will be able to keep making
progress in Science and Technology for ever and ever, even when the
human race makes the transition from Earthly human history to Eternity.

Humans are made in the image of God and God has , ,
~ An Intellect --- and so do we humans
~ Emotions --- and so do we humans
~ Volition {a Will, the ability to choose -- and so do we humans

God's Human Race Project ends victoriously.

Long live science. True science.

JAG


``

Well JAG,

By definition, the universe cannot exist without physical laws which are consistent wherever you go.

And mathematics is the language of science which describes the physical universe.

God not only invented math, at some level some kind of mathematics must describe who and what he is.

God is the perfect, all-encompassing equation.

So why does god make deformed children who suffer constant pain?

Are you an atheist?

I'm agnostic and see no proof either for or against the existence of a god. But leave the door open if anyone comes up with real proof either way. Can't be any fairer than that.

..if there is no proof of god = no god

 

[JAG]

"man's fall was biological."__Norwegen
My view is not biological, but spiritual.
The biology came after the fall and was
the by-product of the spiritual Fall
based on willful disobedience to a
known command of God -- a simple
test to determine who would be God?
{1} God
or
{2} Adam and Eve.

Adam and Eve decided, de facto, that THEY
would be God -- and God would NOT be God.

Nonetheless, biology was different before the fall than it was after the fall. Nature was dramatically reconstituted, correct? Lions and tigers were no longer herbivores; now they were carnivores.

"Man's anatomy changed. Wildlife anatomy changed.
The "world" was recreated. And so the confusion starts.
But I'm more curious about the events that occured
centuries later."__Norwegen
I would use the word cursed instead of recreated.
{sorry to be "picky" I'm only giving you my view.}

Your view is that this “curse” resulted in a radical reconfiguring of nature. Man was immortal, I presume, and yet he died.

As I alluded to earlier, labor pains were not new to
Adam after he forsook God's fruit to partake of
Satan's. __Norwegen
Agreed.

The pain of childbirth was merely multiplied,
as Genesis 2:16 tells us. "Norwegen
My view is there was zero childbirth labor
pains BEFORE the Fall. The command to be
fruitful and multiply was given BEFORE the
Fall and and there would have been zero
labor pains. Eve and all females would have
birthed children with zero pain -- if they had
not chosen to, de facto, become God.
They "said" de facto, We will NOT obey you.

You agree that labor pains were not new to Adam, and then say that before he fell, he did not, in fact, experience labor pains. Which is it?

"You agree that labor pains were not new to Adam, and then
say that before he fell, he did not, in fact, experience labor pains.
Which is it?"__Norwegen

I think we're just misunderstanding each other. Text communication is difficult.
All this would go much better over coffee.

My view is that BEFORE The Fall there was zero pain of any kind and that
all the pain came AFTER the Fall.

Put another way, my view is that had not Adam and Eve made the decision to
de facto, be their own god -- they would have have lived in the Garden eternally
and also branched out and had children that would have had children etc etc and
this process would have filled the Earth with untold billions all living free
from sin and free from ALL sin's bad consequences. Genesis is clear on the
fact that they would have NEVER died if they had not sinned.

The Lord Jesus has a Plan, His Plan is to restore the Earth to its original
sin-free condition. he will do this through His Christian Church. The
parable of the yeast. The Kingdom Of Heave is like yeast that a woman
put in a lump of dough and the yeast leavened the entire lump.
The yeast is the gospel.
The lump of dough is the world.
The entire world will be Christianized in the sesne
that the Human race as a race, will be salvaged.
"I make all things new."__The Lord Jesus
:"He shall have dominion" Psalm 72

By the way, the argument that true perfection demands that Adam and
Eve could not have sinned -- and the fact that they did sin, means they
were not created perfect is a BAD argument that undermines the
creation story in Genesis. I seem to recall somebody in this thread'
made that argument -- but I forgot who it was.

Best.

JAG

``

 

[JAG]

JAG Writes:
I LOVE science. True science. My view is that God LOVES
true science too, for example Math , , ,

My view is that Math originated in the nature of God who
is the Original Mathematician --- just as all the other
disciplines also originated in the nature of God.

God Is The , , ,
Original Mathematician
Original Physicist
Original Cosmologist
Original Inventor
Original Artist
Original Scientist
Original Oceanographer
Original Philosopher
Original Epistemologist
Original Empiricist
Original Poet
Original Writer
Original Lover {wanting the best for others}
Original Chooser { Volition }
Original Economist
Original Emotion-ist {the full range of All Good Emotions}
Original Planner
Original Creator
Original Designer
Original Technologist
Original Educator
Original Everything Good , , ,

, , and we humans participate in all that up there since we are
made in the image of God , , ,

, , and that above is why human beings, made in the image of God,
have been able to build the modern world and will be able to keep making
progress in Science and Technology for ever and ever, even when the
human race makes the transition from Earthly human history to Eternity.

Humans are made in the image of God and God has , ,
~ An Intellect --- and so do we humans
~ Emotions --- and so do we humans
~ Volition {a Will, the ability to choose -- and so do we humans

God's Human Race Project ends victoriously.

Long live science. True science.

JAG


``

Well JAG,

By definition, the universe cannot exist without physical laws which are consistent wherever you go.

And mathematics is the language of science which describes the physical universe.

God not only invented math, at some level some kind of mathematics must describe who and what he is.

God is the perfect, all-encompassing equation.

So why does god make deformed children who suffer constant pain?

Are you an atheist?

you cannot not believe in something that is not there
there is no god--we've been over this many times

"you cannot not believe in something that is not there
there is no god--we've been over this many times"__Harmonica

How do you know that God is not in Andromeda?

How do you know that God is not now in Heaven and that
Heaven is not located at the edge of the known Universe?

If you say there is no God, then you would have to have
the ability to personally investigate the entire Universe.

Moreover, even IF you had that ability -- you could never
be certain that God was not moving around to prevent
you from finding Him. You would go to Andromeda and
personally investigate those untold trillion of smiles
and if God was in Andromeda He could move to the
edge of the known Universe to keep you from finding
Him.

In short you would actually have to be God, in order to
come to know that there is no God.

You would have to Omnipresent for starters.

But as it is you are a mere man that will, relatively
soon, if you die from natural causes, will meet one
of the Killer Diseases like Cancer and you will at some
point be on your last battlefield which will be your
Death Bed and at some point your doctor will shake
his head and walk away -- and you will be left alone
to face Death without a Savior. Consider praying this
prayer from the heart.

"Lord Jesus, I know that I am a sinner, and I ask for Your
forgiveness. I believe You died for my sins and rose from
the dead. I turn from my sins and invite You to come into
my heart and life. I want to trust and follow You as my
Lord and Savior."
____from the Billy Graham Crusades

Best.

JAG

``

 

[Taz]

"man's fall was biological."__Norwegen
My view is not biological, but spiritual.
The biology came after the fall and was
the by-product of the spiritual Fall
based on willful disobedience to a
known command of God -- a simple
test to determine who would be God?
{1} God
or
{2} Adam and Eve.

Adam and Eve decided, de facto, that THEY
would be God -- and God would NOT be God.

Nonetheless, biology was different before the fall than it was after the fall. Nature was dramatically reconstituted, correct? Lions and tigers were no longer herbivores; now they were carnivores.

"Man's anatomy changed. Wildlife anatomy changed.
The "world" was recreated. And so the confusion starts.
But I'm more curious about the events that occured
centuries later."__Norwegen
I would use the word cursed instead of recreated.
{sorry to be "picky" I'm only giving you my view.}

Your view is that this “curse” resulted in a radical reconfiguring of nature. Man was immortal, I presume, and yet he died.

As I alluded to earlier, labor pains were not new to
Adam after he forsook God's fruit to partake of
Satan's. __Norwegen
Agreed.

The pain of childbirth was merely multiplied,
as Genesis 2:16 tells us. "Norwegen
My view is there was zero childbirth labor
pains BEFORE the Fall. The command to be
fruitful and multiply was given BEFORE the
Fall and and there would have been zero
labor pains. Eve and all females would have
birthed children with zero pain -- if they had
not chosen to, de facto, become God.
They "said" de facto, We will NOT obey you.

You agree that labor pains were not new to Adam, and then say that before he fell, he did not, in fact, experience labor pains. Which is it?

"You agree that labor pains were not new to Adam, and then
say that before he fell, he did not, in fact, experience labor pains.
Which is it?"__Norwegen

I think we're just misunderstanding each other. Text communication is difficult.
All this would go much better over coffee.

My view is that BEFORE The Fall there was zero pain of any kind and that
all the pain came AFTER the Fall.

Put another way, my view is that had not Adam and Eve made the decision to
de facto, be their own god -- they would have have lived in the Garden eternally
and also branched out and had children that would have had children etc etc and
this process would have filled the Earth with untold billions all living free
from sin and free from ALL sin's bad consequences. Genesis is clear on the
fact that they would have NEVER died if they had not sinned.

The Lord Jesus has a Plan, His Plan is to restore the Earth to its original
sin-free condition. he will do this through His Christian Church. The
parable of the yeast. The Kingdom Of Heave is like yeast that a woman
put in a lump of dough and the yeast leavened the entire lump.
The yeast is the gospel.
The lump of dough is the world.
The entire world will be Christianized in the sesne
that the Human race as a race, will be salvaged.
"I make all things new."__The Lord Jesus
:"He shall have dominion" Psalm 72

By the way, the argument that true perfection demands that Adam and
Eve could not have sinned -- and the fact that they did sin, means they
were not created perfect is a BAD argument that undermines the
creation story in Genesis. I seem to recall somebody in this thread'
made that argument -- but I forgot who it was.

Best.

JAG

``

So god decided to give us pain because Adam fucked up? And for that god makes deformed babies in constant pain?

 

[LuckyDuck]

JAG Writes:
I LOVE science. True science. My view is that God LOVES
true science too, for example Math , , ,

My view is that Math originated in the nature of God who
is the Original Mathematician --- just as all the other
disciplines also originated in the nature of God.

God Is The , , ,
Original Mathematician
Original Physicist
Original Cosmologist
Original Inventor
Original Artist
Original Scientist
Original Oceanographer
Original Philosopher
Original Epistemologist
Original Empiricist
Original Poet
Original Writer
Original Lover {wanting the best for others}
Original Chooser { Volition }
Original Economist
Original Emotion-ist {the full range of All Good Emotions}
Original Planner
Original Creator
Original Designer
Original Technologist
Original Educator
Original Everything Good , , ,

, , and we humans participate in all that up there since we are
made in the image of God , , ,

, , and that above is why human beings, made in the image of God,
have been able to build the modern world and will be able to keep making
progress in Science and Technology for ever and ever, even when the
human race makes the transition from Earthly human history to Eternity.

Humans are made in the image of God and God has , ,
~ An Intellect --- and so do we humans
~ Emotions --- and so do we humans
~ Volition {a Will, the ability to choose -- and so do we humans

God's Human Race Project ends victoriously.

Long live science. True science.

JAG


``

As leftists are now claiming that mathematics is racist, then it would be reasonable to surmise that God is therefore racist.

 

[harmonica]

JAG Writes:
I LOVE science. True science. My view is that God LOVES
true science too, for example Math , , ,

My view is that Math originated in the nature of God who
is the Original Mathematician --- just as all the other
disciplines also originated in the nature of God.

God Is The , , ,
Original Mathematician
Original Physicist
Original Cosmologist
Original Inventor
Original Artist
Original Scientist
Original Oceanographer
Original Philosopher
Original Epistemologist
Original Empiricist
Original Poet
Original Writer
Original Lover {wanting the best for others}
Original Chooser { Volition }
Original Economist
Original Emotion-ist {the full range of All Good Emotions}
Original Planner
Original Creator
Original Designer
Original Technologist
Original Educator
Original Everything Good , , ,

, , and we humans participate in all that up there since we are
made in the image of God , , ,

, , and that above is why human beings, made in the image of God,
have been able to build the modern world and will be able to keep making
progress in Science and Technology for ever and ever, even when the
human race makes the transition from Earthly human history to Eternity.

Humans are made in the image of God and God has , ,
~ An Intellect --- and so do we humans
~ Emotions --- and so do we humans
~ Volition {a Will, the ability to choose -- and so do we humans

God's Human Race Project ends victoriously.

Long live science. True science.

JAG


``

Well JAG,

By definition, the universe cannot exist without physical laws which are consistent wherever you go.

And mathematics is the language of science which describes the physical universe.

God not only invented math, at some level some kind of mathematics must describe who and what he is.

God is the perfect, all-encompassing equation.

So why does god make deformed children who suffer constant pain?

Are you an atheist?

you cannot not believe in something that is not there
there is no god--we've been over this many times

"you cannot not believe in something that is not there
there is no god--we've been over this many times"__Harmonica

How do you know that God is not in Andromeda?

How do you know that God is not now in Heaven and that
Heaven is not located at the edge of the known Universe?

If you say there is no God, then you would have to have
the ability to personally investigate the entire Universe.

Moreover, even IF you had that ability -- you could never
be certain that God was not moving around to prevent
you from finding Him. You would go to Andromeda and
personally investigate those untold trillion of smiles
and if God was in Andromeda He could move to the
edge of the known Universe to keep you from finding
Him.

In short you would actually have to be God, in order to
come to know that there is no God.

You would have to Omnipresent for starters.

But as it is you are a mere man that will, relatively
soon, if you die from natural causes, will meet one
of the Killer Diseases like Cancer and you will at some
point be on your last battlefield which will be your
Death Bed and at some point your doctor will shake
his head and walk away -- and you will be left alone
to face Death without a Savior. Consider praying this
prayer from the heart.

"Lord Jesus, I know that I am a sinner, and I ask for Your
forgiveness. I believe You died for my sins and rose from
the dead. I turn from my sins and invite You to come into
my heart and life. I want to trust and follow You as my
Lord and Savior."
____from the Billy Graham Crusades

Best.

JAG

``

.....plain and simple -no one can prove there is a god..it's up to you people who claim there is a god to prove it, not for us to disprove it
.....maybe there is a fairytale god that only exist in your minds--but no god that created the universe/etc

 

[Taz]

JAG Writes:
I LOVE science. True science. My view is that God LOVES
true science too, for example Math , , ,

My view is that Math originated in the nature of God who
is the Original Mathematician --- just as all the other
disciplines also originated in the nature of God.

God Is The , , ,
Original Mathematician
Original Physicist
Original Cosmologist
Original Inventor
Original Artist
Original Scientist
Original Oceanographer
Original Philosopher
Original Epistemologist
Original Empiricist
Original Poet
Original Writer
Original Lover {wanting the best for others}
Original Chooser { Volition }
Original Economist
Original Emotion-ist {the full range of All Good Emotions}
Original Planner
Original Creator
Original Designer
Original Technologist
Original Educator
Original Everything Good , , ,

, , and we humans participate in all that up there since we are
made in the image of God , , ,

, , and that above is why human beings, made in the image of God,
have been able to build the modern world and will be able to keep making
progress in Science and Technology for ever and ever, even when the
human race makes the transition from Earthly human history to Eternity.

Humans are made in the image of God and God has , ,
~ An Intellect --- and so do we humans
~ Emotions --- and so do we humans
~ Volition {a Will, the ability to choose -- and so do we humans

God's Human Race Project ends victoriously.

Long live science. True science.

JAG


``

Well JAG,

By definition, the universe cannot exist without physical laws which are consistent wherever you go.

And mathematics is the language of science which describes the physical universe.

God not only invented math, at some level some kind of mathematics must describe who and what he is.

God is the perfect, all-encompassing equation.

So why does god make deformed children who suffer constant pain?

Are you an atheist?

I'm agnostic and see no proof either for or against the existence of a god. But leave the door open if anyone comes up with real proof either way. Can't be any fairer than that.

..if there is no proof of god = no god

Actually, I'm agnostic, as no proof of god doesn't equal no god absolutely, because something can exist before we discover it. So I see no proof for or against the possible existence of a god.

 

[harmonica]

JAG Writes:
I LOVE science. True science. My view is that God LOVES
true science too, for example Math , , ,

My view is that Math originated in the nature of God who
is the Original Mathematician --- just as all the other
disciplines also originated in the nature of God.

God Is The , , ,
Original Mathematician
Original Physicist
Original Cosmologist
Original Inventor
Original Artist
Original Scientist
Original Oceanographer
Original Philosopher
Original Epistemologist
Original Empiricist
Original Poet
Original Writer
Original Lover {wanting the best for others}
Original Chooser { Volition }
Original Economist
Original Emotion-ist {the full range of All Good Emotions}
Original Planner
Original Creator
Original Designer
Original Technologist
Original Educator
Original Everything Good , , ,

, , and we humans participate in all that up there since we are
made in the image of God , , ,

, , and that above is why human beings, made in the image of God,
have been able to build the modern world and will be able to keep making
progress in Science and Technology for ever and ever, even when the
human race makes the transition from Earthly human history to Eternity.

Humans are made in the image of God and God has , ,
~ An Intellect --- and so do we humans
~ Emotions --- and so do we humans
~ Volition {a Will, the ability to choose -- and so do we humans

God's Human Race Project ends victoriously.

Long live science. True science.

JAG


``

Well JAG,

By definition, the universe cannot exist without physical laws which are consistent wherever you go.

And mathematics is the language of science which describes the physical universe.

God not only invented math, at some level some kind of mathematics must describe who and what he is.

God is the perfect, all-encompassing equation.

So why does god make deformed children who suffer constant pain?

Are you an atheist?

I'm agnostic and see no proof either for or against the existence of a god. But leave the door open if anyone comes up with real proof either way. Can't be any fairer than that.

..if there is no proof of god = no god

Actually, I'm agnostic, as no proof of god doesn't equal no god absolutely, because something can exist before we discover it. So I see no proof for or against the possible existence of a god.

....but it's not proven......it's like people believing comets are a sign/witches/Santa/fairy tales = archaic ignorant
...it's either there or it isn't ...there is either proof or not

 

[Taz]

JAG Writes:
I LOVE science. True science. My view is that God LOVES
true science too, for example Math , , ,

My view is that Math originated in the nature of God who
is the Original Mathematician --- just as all the other
disciplines also originated in the nature of God.

God Is The , , ,
Original Mathematician
Original Physicist
Original Cosmologist
Original Inventor
Original Artist
Original Scientist
Original Oceanographer
Original Philosopher
Original Epistemologist
Original Empiricist
Original Poet
Original Writer
Original Lover {wanting the best for others}
Original Chooser { Volition }
Original Economist
Original Emotion-ist {the full range of All Good Emotions}
Original Planner
Original Creator
Original Designer
Original Technologist
Original Educator
Original Everything Good , , ,

, , and we humans participate in all that up there since we are
made in the image of God , , ,

, , and that above is why human beings, made in the image of God,
have been able to build the modern world and will be able to keep making
progress in Science and Technology for ever and ever, even when the
human race makes the transition from Earthly human history to Eternity.

Humans are made in the image of God and God has , ,
~ An Intellect --- and so do we humans
~ Emotions --- and so do we humans
~ Volition {a Will, the ability to choose -- and so do we humans

God's Human Race Project ends victoriously.

Long live science. True science.

JAG


``

Well JAG,

By definition, the universe cannot exist without physical laws which are consistent wherever you go.

And mathematics is the language of science which describes the physical universe.

God not only invented math, at some level some kind of mathematics must describe who and what he is.

God is the perfect, all-encompassing equation.

So why does god make deformed children who suffer constant pain?

Are you an atheist?

I'm agnostic and see no proof either for or against the existence of a god. But leave the door open if anyone comes up with real proof either way. Can't be any fairer than that.

..if there is no proof of god = no god

Actually, I'm agnostic, as no proof of god doesn't equal no god absolutely, because something can exist before we discover it. So I see no proof for or against the possible existence of a god.

....but it's not proven......it's like people believing comets are a sign/witches/Santa/fairy tales = archaic ignorant
...it's either there or it isn't ...there is either proof or not

No, science has proven what comets are. Gravity existed before Newton discovered it. I think that whether there's a god or not is the biggest question out there, and I honestly can't say that science is far along enough to say that a god is not possible. The god of the bible? No, there's enough proof that the bible is bs. But some kind of higher form of being or consciousness? Hasn't been ruled out by science.

 

[harmonica]

JAG Writes:
I LOVE science. True science. My view is that God LOVES
true science too, for example Math , , ,

My view is that Math originated in the nature of God who
is the Original Mathematician --- just as all the other
disciplines also originated in the nature of God.

God Is The , , ,
Original Mathematician
Original Physicist
Original Cosmologist
Original Inventor
Original Artist
Original Scientist
Original Oceanographer
Original Philosopher
Original Epistemologist
Original Empiricist
Original Poet
Original Writer
Original Lover {wanting the best for others}
Original Chooser { Volition }
Original Economist
Original Emotion-ist {the full range of All Good Emotions}
Original Planner
Original Creator
Original Designer
Original Technologist
Original Educator
Original Everything Good , , ,

, , and we humans participate in all that up there since we are
made in the image of God , , ,

, , and that above is why human beings, made in the image of God,
have been able to build the modern world and will be able to keep making
progress in Science and Technology for ever and ever, even when the
human race makes the transition from Earthly human history to Eternity.

Humans are made in the image of God and God has , ,
~ An Intellect --- and so do we humans
~ Emotions --- and so do we humans
~ Volition {a Will, the ability to choose -- and so do we humans

God's Human Race Project ends victoriously.

Long live science. True science.

JAG


``

Well JAG,

By definition, the universe cannot exist without physical laws which are consistent wherever you go.

And mathematics is the language of science which describes the physical universe.

God not only invented math, at some level some kind of mathematics must describe who and what he is.

God is the perfect, all-encompassing equation.

So why does god make deformed children who suffer constant pain?

Are you an atheist?

I'm agnostic and see no proof either for or against the existence of a god. But leave the door open if anyone comes up with real proof either way. Can't be any fairer than that.

..if there is no proof of god = no god

Actually, I'm agnostic, as no proof of god doesn't equal no god absolutely, because something can exist before we discover it. So I see no proof for or against the possible existence of a god.

....but it's not proven......it's like people believing comets are a sign/witches/Santa/fairy tales = archaic ignorant
...it's either there or it isn't ...there is either proof or not

No, science has proven what comets are. Gravity existed before Newton discovered it. I think that whether there's a god or not is the biggest question out there, and I honestly can't say that science is far along enough to say that a god is not possible. The god of the bible? No, there's enough proof that the bible is bs. But some kind of higher form of being or consciousness? Hasn't been ruled out by science.

...hahahahahahah
but it's not there NOW, is it?
1. I can claim all kinds of stuff that science can't deny
2. how the heck is science going to prove or disprove a fairy tale!!!!!!!!????????

 

[Taz]

JAG Writes:
I LOVE science. True science. My view is that God LOVES
true science too, for example Math , , ,

My view is that Math originated in the nature of God who
is the Original Mathematician --- just as all the other
disciplines also originated in the nature of God.

God Is The , , ,
Original Mathematician
Original Physicist
Original Cosmologist
Original Inventor
Original Artist
Original Scientist
Original Oceanographer
Original Philosopher
Original Epistemologist
Original Empiricist
Original Poet
Original Writer
Original Lover {wanting the best for others}
Original Chooser { Volition }
Original Economist
Original Emotion-ist {the full range of All Good Emotions}
Original Planner
Original Creator
Original Designer
Original Technologist
Original Educator
Original Everything Good , , ,

, , and we humans participate in all that up there since we are
made in the image of God , , ,

, , and that above is why human beings, made in the image of God,
have been able to build the modern world and will be able to keep making
progress in Science and Technology for ever and ever, even when the
human race makes the transition from Earthly human history to Eternity.

Humans are made in the image of God and God has , ,
~ An Intellect --- and so do we humans
~ Emotions --- and so do we humans
~ Volition {a Will, the ability to choose -- and so do we humans

God's Human Race Project ends victoriously.

Long live science. True science.

JAG


``

Well JAG,

By definition, the universe cannot exist without physical laws which are consistent wherever you go.

And mathematics is the language of science which describes the physical universe.

God not only invented math, at some level some kind of mathematics must describe who and what he is.

God is the perfect, all-encompassing equation.

So why does god make deformed children who suffer constant pain?

Are you an atheist?

I'm agnostic and see no proof either for or against the existence of a god. But leave the door open if anyone comes up with real proof either way. Can't be any fairer than that.

..if there is no proof of god = no god

Actually, I'm agnostic, as no proof of god doesn't equal no god absolutely, because something can exist before we discover it. So I see no proof for or against the possible existence of a god.

....but it's not proven......it's like people believing comets are a sign/witches/Santa/fairy tales = archaic ignorant
...it's either there or it isn't ...there is either proof or not

No, science has proven what comets are. Gravity existed before Newton discovered it. I think that whether there's a god or not is the biggest question out there, and I honestly can't say that science is far along enough to say that a god is not possible. The god of the bible? No, there's enough proof that the bible is bs. But some kind of higher form of being or consciousness? Hasn't been ruled out by science.

...hahahahahahah
but it's not there NOW, is it?
1. I can claim all kinds of stuff that science can't deny
2. how the heck is science going to prove or disprove a fairy tale!!!!!!!!????????

What I'm saying is that until there's proof of how the universe came to be and why, nothing can be discounted. "Extraordinary claims need extraordinary proof", Carl Sagan. Claiming that you're 100% positive that there is no god is an extraordinary claim.

 

[harmonica]

JAG Writes:
I LOVE science. True science. My view is that God LOVES
true science too, for example Math , , ,

My view is that Math originated in the nature of God who
is the Original Mathematician --- just as all the other
disciplines also originated in the nature of God.

God Is The , , ,
Original Mathematician
Original Physicist
Original Cosmologist
Original Inventor
Original Artist
Original Scientist
Original Oceanographer
Original Philosopher
Original Epistemologist
Original Empiricist
Original Poet
Original Writer
Original Lover {wanting the best for others}
Original Chooser { Volition }
Original Economist
Original Emotion-ist {the full range of All Good Emotions}
Original Planner
Original Creator
Original Designer
Original Technologist
Original Educator
Original Everything Good , , ,

, , and we humans participate in all that up there since we are
made in the image of God , , ,

, , and that above is why human beings, made in the image of God,
have been able to build the modern world and will be able to keep making
progress in Science and Technology for ever and ever, even when the
human race makes the transition from Earthly human history to Eternity.

Humans are made in the image of God and God has , ,
~ An Intellect --- and so do we humans
~ Emotions --- and so do we humans
~ Volition {a Will, the ability to choose -- and so do we humans

God's Human Race Project ends victoriously.

Long live science. True science.

JAG


``

Well JAG,

By definition, the universe cannot exist without physical laws which are consistent wherever you go.

And mathematics is the language of science which describes the physical universe.

God not only invented math, at some level some kind of mathematics must describe who and what he is.

God is the perfect, all-encompassing equation.

So why does god make deformed children who suffer constant pain?

Are you an atheist?

I'm agnostic and see no proof either for or against the existence of a god. But leave the door open if anyone comes up with real proof either way. Can't be any fairer than that.

..if there is no proof of god = no god

Actually, I'm agnostic, as no proof of god doesn't equal no god absolutely, because something can exist before we discover it. So I see no proof for or against the possible existence of a god.

....but it's not proven......it's like people believing comets are a sign/witches/Santa/fairy tales = archaic ignorant
...it's either there or it isn't ...there is either proof or not

No, science has proven what comets are. Gravity existed before Newton discovered it. I think that whether there's a god or not is the biggest question out there, and I honestly can't say that science is far along enough to say that a god is not possible. The god of the bible? No, there's enough proof that the bible is bs. But some kind of higher form of being or consciousness? Hasn't been ruled out by science.

...hahahahahahah
but it's not there NOW, is it?
1. I can claim all kinds of stuff that science can't deny
2. how the heck is science going to prove or disprove a fairy tale!!!!!!!!????????

What I'm saying is that until there's proof of how the universe came to be and why, nothing can be discounted. "Extraordinary claims need extraordinary proof", Carl Sagan. Claiming that you're 100% positive that there is no god is an extraordinary claim.

....I'm 100% positive no one can prove there is a god
...it's like the alien kidnappings --no one can disprove them