God Is The Original Mathematician

[Taz]

JAG Writes:
I LOVE science. True science. My view is that God LOVES
true science too, for example Math , , ,

My view is that Math originated in the nature of God who
is the Original Mathematician --- just as all the other
disciplines also originated in the nature of God.

God Is The , , ,
Original Mathematician
Original Physicist
Original Cosmologist
Original Inventor
Original Artist
Original Scientist
Original Oceanographer
Original Philosopher
Original Epistemologist
Original Empiricist
Original Poet
Original Writer
Original Lover {wanting the best for others}
Original Chooser { Volition }
Original Economist
Original Emotion-ist {the full range of All Good Emotions}
Original Planner
Original Creator
Original Designer
Original Technologist
Original Educator
Original Everything Good , , ,

, , and we humans participate in all that up there since we are
made in the image of God , , ,

, , and that above is why human beings, made in the image of God,
have been able to build the modern world and will be able to keep making
progress in Science and Technology for ever and ever, even when the
human race makes the transition from Earthly human history to Eternity.

Humans are made in the image of God and God has , ,
~ An Intellect --- and so do we humans
~ Emotions --- and so do we humans
~ Volition {a Will, the ability to choose -- and so do we humans

God's Human Race Project ends victoriously.

Long live science. True science.

JAG


``

Well JAG,

By definition, the universe cannot exist without physical laws which are consistent wherever you go.

And mathematics is the language of science which describes the physical universe.

God not only invented math, at some level some kind of mathematics must describe who and what he is.

God is the perfect, all-encompassing equation.

So why does god make deformed children who suffer constant pain?

Are you an atheist?

I'm agnostic and see no proof either for or against the existence of a god. But leave the door open if anyone comes up with real proof either way. Can't be any fairer than that.

..if there is no proof of god = no god

Actually, I'm agnostic, as no proof of god doesn't equal no god absolutely, because something can exist before we discover it. So I see no proof for or against the possible existence of a god.

....but it's not proven......it's like people believing comets are a sign/witches/Santa/fairy tales = archaic ignorant
...it's either there or it isn't ...there is either proof or not

No, science has proven what comets are. Gravity existed before Newton discovered it. I think that whether there's a god or not is the biggest question out there, and I honestly can't say that science is far along enough to say that a god is not possible. The god of the bible? No, there's enough proof that the bible is bs. But some kind of higher form of being or consciousness? Hasn't been ruled out by science.

...hahahahahahah
but it's not there NOW, is it?
1. I can claim all kinds of stuff that science can't deny
2. how the heck is science going to prove or disprove a fairy tale!!!!!!!!????????

What I'm saying is that until there's proof of how the universe came to be and why, nothing can be discounted. "Extraordinary claims need extraordinary proof", Carl Sagan. Claiming that you're 100% positive that there is no god is an extraordinary claim.

....I'm 100% positive no one can prove there is a god
...it's like the alien kidnappings --no one can disprove them

Whether anyone could prove gravity before Newton discovered it, doesn't mean that gravity doesn't exist. Same thing with a god, nobody can prove it now, but who knows down the road what happens. It is correct to say that as of now, god hasn't been proven. But to say that nobody ever will crack that nut is predicting the future, which you can't.

 

[harmonica]

JAG Writes:
I LOVE science. True science. My view is that God LOVES
true science too, for example Math , , ,

My view is that Math originated in the nature of God who
is the Original Mathematician --- just as all the other
disciplines also originated in the nature of God.

God Is The , , ,
Original Mathematician
Original Physicist
Original Cosmologist
Original Inventor
Original Artist
Original Scientist
Original Oceanographer
Original Philosopher
Original Epistemologist
Original Empiricist
Original Poet
Original Writer
Original Lover {wanting the best for others}
Original Chooser { Volition }
Original Economist
Original Emotion-ist {the full range of All Good Emotions}
Original Planner
Original Creator
Original Designer
Original Technologist
Original Educator
Original Everything Good , , ,

, , and we humans participate in all that up there since we are
made in the image of God , , ,

, , and that above is why human beings, made in the image of God,
have been able to build the modern world and will be able to keep making
progress in Science and Technology for ever and ever, even when the
human race makes the transition from Earthly human history to Eternity.

Humans are made in the image of God and God has , ,
~ An Intellect --- and so do we humans
~ Emotions --- and so do we humans
~ Volition {a Will, the ability to choose -- and so do we humans

God's Human Race Project ends victoriously.

Long live science. True science.

JAG


``

Well JAG,

By definition, the universe cannot exist without physical laws which are consistent wherever you go.

And mathematics is the language of science which describes the physical universe.

God not only invented math, at some level some kind of mathematics must describe who and what he is.

God is the perfect, all-encompassing equation.

So why does god make deformed children who suffer constant pain?

Are you an atheist?

I'm agnostic and see no proof either for or against the existence of a god. But leave the door open if anyone comes up with real proof either way. Can't be any fairer than that.

..if there is no proof of god = no god

Actually, I'm agnostic, as no proof of god doesn't equal no god absolutely, because something can exist before we discover it. So I see no proof for or against the possible existence of a god.

....but it's not proven......it's like people believing comets are a sign/witches/Santa/fairy tales = archaic ignorant
...it's either there or it isn't ...there is either proof or not

No, science has proven what comets are. Gravity existed before Newton discovered it. I think that whether there's a god or not is the biggest question out there, and I honestly can't say that science is far along enough to say that a god is not possible. The god of the bible? No, there's enough proof that the bible is bs. But some kind of higher form of being or consciousness? Hasn't been ruled out by science.

...hahahahahahah
but it's not there NOW, is it?
1. I can claim all kinds of stuff that science can't deny
2. how the heck is science going to prove or disprove a fairy tale!!!!!!!!????????

What I'm saying is that until there's proof of how the universe came to be and why, nothing can be discounted. "Extraordinary claims need extraordinary proof", Carl Sagan. Claiming that you're 100% positive that there is no god is an extraordinary claim.

....I'm 100% positive no one can prove there is a god
...it's like the alien kidnappings --no one can disprove them

Whether anyone could prove gravity before Newton discovered it, doesn't mean that gravity doesn't exist. Same thing with a god, nobody can prove it now, but who knows down the road what happens. It is correct to say that as of now, god hasn't been proven. But to say that nobody ever will crack that nut is predicting the future, which you can't.

...how will you prove god with science?

 

[Taz]

JAG Writes:
I LOVE science. True science. My view is that God LOVES
true science too, for example Math , , ,

My view is that Math originated in the nature of God who
is the Original Mathematician --- just as all the other
disciplines also originated in the nature of God.

God Is The , , ,
Original Mathematician
Original Physicist
Original Cosmologist
Original Inventor
Original Artist
Original Scientist
Original Oceanographer
Original Philosopher
Original Epistemologist
Original Empiricist
Original Poet
Original Writer
Original Lover {wanting the best for others}
Original Chooser { Volition }
Original Economist
Original Emotion-ist {the full range of All Good Emotions}
Original Planner
Original Creator
Original Designer
Original Technologist
Original Educator
Original Everything Good , , ,

, , and we humans participate in all that up there since we are
made in the image of God , , ,

, , and that above is why human beings, made in the image of God,
have been able to build the modern world and will be able to keep making
progress in Science and Technology for ever and ever, even when the
human race makes the transition from Earthly human history to Eternity.

Humans are made in the image of God and God has , ,
~ An Intellect --- and so do we humans
~ Emotions --- and so do we humans
~ Volition {a Will, the ability to choose -- and so do we humans

God's Human Race Project ends victoriously.

Long live science. True science.

JAG


``

Well JAG,

By definition, the universe cannot exist without physical laws which are consistent wherever you go.

And mathematics is the language of science which describes the physical universe.

God not only invented math, at some level some kind of mathematics must describe who and what he is.

God is the perfect, all-encompassing equation.

So why does god make deformed children who suffer constant pain?

Are you an atheist?

I'm agnostic and see no proof either for or against the existence of a god. But leave the door open if anyone comes up with real proof either way. Can't be any fairer than that.

..if there is no proof of god = no god

Actually, I'm agnostic, as no proof of god doesn't equal no god absolutely, because something can exist before we discover it. So I see no proof for or against the possible existence of a god.

....but it's not proven......it's like people believing comets are a sign/witches/Santa/fairy tales = archaic ignorant
...it's either there or it isn't ...there is either proof or not

No, science has proven what comets are. Gravity existed before Newton discovered it. I think that whether there's a god or not is the biggest question out there, and I honestly can't say that science is far along enough to say that a god is not possible. The god of the bible? No, there's enough proof that the bible is bs. But some kind of higher form of being or consciousness? Hasn't been ruled out by science.

...hahahahahahah
but it's not there NOW, is it?
1. I can claim all kinds of stuff that science can't deny
2. how the heck is science going to prove or disprove a fairy tale!!!!!!!!????????

What I'm saying is that until there's proof of how the universe came to be and why, nothing can be discounted. "Extraordinary claims need extraordinary proof", Carl Sagan. Claiming that you're 100% positive that there is no god is an extraordinary claim.

....I'm 100% positive no one can prove there is a god
...it's like the alien kidnappings --no one can disprove them

Whether anyone could prove gravity before Newton discovered it, doesn't mean that gravity doesn't exist. Same thing with a god, nobody can prove it now, but who knows down the road what happens. It is correct to say that as of now, god hasn't been proven. But to say that nobody ever will crack that nut is predicting the future, which you can't.

...how will you prove god with science?

As of now, science can't prove god, but I don't presume to know what science might be able to figure out down the road, be it 100 years, or a million... Right now science is trying to figure out dark matter and dark energy, as they call it. Maybe that leads somewhere...

 

[norwegen]

"man's fall was biological."__Norwegen
My view is not biological, but spiritual.
The biology came after the fall and was
the by-product of the spiritual Fall
based on willful disobedience to a
known command of God -- a simple
test to determine who would be God?
{1} God
or
{2} Adam and Eve.

Adam and Eve decided, de facto, that THEY
would be God -- and God would NOT be God.

Nonetheless, biology was different before the fall than it was after the fall. Nature was dramatically reconstituted, correct? Lions and tigers were no longer herbivores; now they were carnivores.

"Man's anatomy changed. Wildlife anatomy changed.
The "world" was recreated. And so the confusion starts.
But I'm more curious about the events that occured
centuries later."__Norwegen
I would use the word cursed instead of recreated.
{sorry to be "picky" I'm only giving you my view.}

Your view is that this “curse” resulted in a radical reconfiguring of nature. Man was immortal, I presume, and yet he died.

As I alluded to earlier, labor pains were not new to
Adam after he forsook God's fruit to partake of
Satan's. __Norwegen
Agreed.

The pain of childbirth was merely multiplied,
as Genesis 2:16 tells us. "Norwegen
My view is there was zero childbirth labor
pains BEFORE the Fall. The command to be
fruitful and multiply was given BEFORE the
Fall and and there would have been zero
labor pains. Eve and all females would have
birthed children with zero pain -- if they had
not chosen to, de facto, become God.
They "said" de facto, We will NOT obey you.

You agree that labor pains were not new to Adam, and then say that before he fell, he did not, in fact, experience labor pains. Which is it?

"You agree that labor pains were not new to Adam, and then
say that before he fell, he did not, in fact, experience labor pains.
Which is it?"__Norwegen

I think we're just misunderstanding each other. Text communication is difficult.
All this would go much better over coffee.

My view is that BEFORE The Fall there was zero pain of any kind and that
all the pain came AFTER the Fall.

Put another way, my view is that had not Adam and Eve made the decision to
de facto, be their own god -- they would have have lived in the Garden eternally
and also branched out and had children that would have had children etc etc and
this process would have filled the Earth with untold billions all living free
from sin and free from ALL sin's bad consequences. Genesis is clear on the
fact that they would have NEVER died if they had not sinned.

The Lord Jesus has a Plan, His Plan is to restore the Earth to its original
sin-free condition. he will do this through His Christian Church. The
parable of the yeast. The Kingdom Of Heave is like yeast that a woman
put in a lump of dough and the yeast leavened the entire lump.
The yeast is the gospel.
The lump of dough is the world.
The entire world will be Christianized in the sesne
that the Human race as a race, will be salvaged.
"I make all things new."__The Lord Jesus
:"He shall have dominion" Psalm 72

By the way, the argument that true perfection demands that Adam and
Eve could not have sinned -- and the fact that they did sin, means they
were not created perfect is a BAD argument that undermines the
creation story in Genesis. I seem to recall somebody in this thread'
made that argument -- but I forgot who it was.

Best.

JAG

``

You say “unfallen” man sinned and invited physical suffering on himself (pain in childbearing, disease, and death).

As a result of sin in the Garden, flesh now dies, correct? Before sinning, flesh did not die, but now it does. Right?

 

[JAG]

JAG Writes:
I LOVE science. True science. My view is that God LOVES
true science too, for example Math , , ,

My view is that Math originated in the nature of God who
is the Original Mathematician --- just as all the other
disciplines also originated in the nature of God.

God Is The , , ,
Original Mathematician
Original Physicist
Original Cosmologist
Original Inventor
Original Artist
Original Scientist
Original Oceanographer
Original Philosopher
Original Epistemologist
Original Empiricist
Original Poet
Original Writer
Original Lover {wanting the best for others}
Original Chooser { Volition }
Original Economist
Original Emotion-ist {the full range of All Good Emotions}
Original Planner
Original Creator
Original Designer
Original Technologist
Original Educator
Original Everything Good , , ,

, , and we humans participate in all that up there since we are
made in the image of God , , ,

, , and that above is why human beings, made in the image of God,
have been able to build the modern world and will be able to keep making
progress in Science and Technology for ever and ever, even when the
human race makes the transition from Earthly human history to Eternity.

Humans are made in the image of God and God has , ,
~ An Intellect --- and so do we humans
~ Emotions --- and so do we humans
~ Volition {a Will, the ability to choose -- and so do we humans

God's Human Race Project ends victoriously.

Long live science. True science.

JAG


``

Well JAG,

By definition, the universe cannot exist without physical laws which are consistent wherever you go.

And mathematics is the language of science which describes the physical universe.

God not only invented math, at some level some kind of mathematics must describe who and what he is.

God is the perfect, all-encompassing equation.

So why does god make deformed children who suffer constant pain?

Are you an atheist?

you cannot not believe in something that is not there
there is no god--we've been over this many times

"you cannot not believe in something that is not there
there is no god--we've been over this many times"__Harmonica

How do you know that God is not in Andromeda?

How do you know that God is not now in Heaven and that
Heaven is not located at the edge of the known Universe?

If you say there is no God, then you would have to have
the ability to personally investigate the entire Universe.

Moreover, even IF you had that ability -- you could never
be certain that God was not moving around to prevent
you from finding Him. You would go to Andromeda and
personally investigate those untold trillion of smiles
and if God was in Andromeda He could move to the
edge of the known Universe to keep you from finding
Him.

In short you would actually have to be God, in order to
come to know that there is no God.

You would have to Omnipresent for starters.

But as it is you are a mere man that will, relatively
soon, if you die from natural causes, will meet one
of the Killer Diseases like Cancer and you will at some
point be on your last battlefield which will be your
Death Bed and at some point your doctor will shake
his head and walk away -- and you will be left alone
to face Death without a Savior. Consider praying this
prayer from the heart.

"Lord Jesus, I know that I am a sinner, and I ask for Your
forgiveness. I believe You died for my sins and rose from
the dead. I turn from my sins and invite You to come into
my heart and life. I want to trust and follow You as my
Lord and Savior."
____from the Billy Graham Crusades

Best.

JAG

``

.....plain and simple -no one can prove there is a god..it's up to you people who claim there is a god to prove it, not for us to disprove it
.....maybe there is a fairytale god that only exist in your minds--but no god that created the universe/etc

"plain and simple -no one can prove there is a god."___Harmonica
That is exactly correct.

"it's up to you people who claim there is a god to prove it,"___Harmonica
Incorrect
It is NOT up to we Christians to prove to you there is a God
It is up to YOU whether you want to believe it or not.
John 3:16
{1} believe and get Eternal Life
{2} refuse to believe and perish

"not for us to disprove it"__Harmonica
Correct.
You are free to remain in unbelief and perish as per John 3:16

It would be better for your eternal soul if you prayed that God
would not hide from you these salvation verses. Consider this
Bible verse below:

"At that time Jesus, full of joy through the Holy Spirit, said, "I
praise you, Father, LORD of heaven and earth, because you
have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and
revealed them to little children. Yes, Father, for this is what
you were pleased to do."__The Lord Jesus Luke 10:21

JAG

``

 

[JAG]

"man's fall was biological."__Norwegen
My view is not biological, but spiritual.
The biology came after the fall and was
the by-product of the spiritual Fall
based on willful disobedience to a
known command of God -- a simple
test to determine who would be God?
{1} God
or
{2} Adam and Eve.

Adam and Eve decided, de facto, that THEY
would be God -- and God would NOT be God.

Nonetheless, biology was different before the fall than it was after the fall. Nature was dramatically reconstituted, correct? Lions and tigers were no longer herbivores; now they were carnivores.

"Man's anatomy changed. Wildlife anatomy changed.
The "world" was recreated. And so the confusion starts.
But I'm more curious about the events that occured
centuries later."__Norwegen
I would use the word cursed instead of recreated.
{sorry to be "picky" I'm only giving you my view.}

Your view is that this “curse” resulted in a radical reconfiguring of nature. Man was immortal, I presume, and yet he died.

As I alluded to earlier, labor pains were not new to
Adam after he forsook God's fruit to partake of
Satan's. __Norwegen
Agreed.

The pain of childbirth was merely multiplied,
as Genesis 2:16 tells us. "Norwegen
My view is there was zero childbirth labor
pains BEFORE the Fall. The command to be
fruitful and multiply was given BEFORE the
Fall and and there would have been zero
labor pains. Eve and all females would have
birthed children with zero pain -- if they had
not chosen to, de facto, become God.
They "said" de facto, We will NOT obey you.

You agree that labor pains were not new to Adam, and then say that before he fell, he did not, in fact, experience labor pains. Which is it?

"You agree that labor pains were not new to Adam, and then
say that before he fell, he did not, in fact, experience labor pains.
Which is it?"__Norwegen

I think we're just misunderstanding each other. Text communication is difficult.
All this would go much better over coffee.

My view is that BEFORE The Fall there was zero pain of any kind and that
all the pain came AFTER the Fall.

Put another way, my view is that had not Adam and Eve made the decision to
de facto, be their own god -- they would have have lived in the Garden eternally
and also branched out and had children that would have had children etc etc and
this process would have filled the Earth with untold billions all living free
from sin and free from ALL sin's bad consequences. Genesis is clear on the
fact that they would have NEVER died if they had not sinned.

The Lord Jesus has a Plan, His Plan is to restore the Earth to its original
sin-free condition. he will do this through His Christian Church. The
parable of the yeast. The Kingdom Of Heave is like yeast that a woman
put in a lump of dough and the yeast leavened the entire lump.
The yeast is the gospel.
The lump of dough is the world.
The entire world will be Christianized in the sesne
that the Human race as a race, will be salvaged.
"I make all things new."__The Lord Jesus
:"He shall have dominion" Psalm 72

By the way, the argument that true perfection demands that Adam and
Eve could not have sinned -- and the fact that they did sin, means they
were not created perfect is a BAD argument that undermines the
creation story in Genesis. I seem to recall somebody in this thread'
made that argument -- but I forgot who it was.

Best.

JAG

``

You say “unfallen” man sinned and invited physical suffering on himself (pain in childbearing, disease, and death).

As a result of sin in the Garden, flesh now dies, correct? Before sinning, flesh did not die, but now it does. Right?

"You say “unfallen” man sinned and invited physical suffering on himself (pain in childbearing, disease, and death).
As a result of sin in the Garden, flesh now dies, correct? Before sinning, flesh did not die, but now it does. Right?"___Norwegen
Yes correct. That is my position.

JAG

``

 

[Taz]

JAG Writes:
I LOVE science. True science. My view is that God LOVES
true science too, for example Math , , ,

My view is that Math originated in the nature of God who
is the Original Mathematician --- just as all the other
disciplines also originated in the nature of God.

God Is The , , ,
Original Mathematician
Original Physicist
Original Cosmologist
Original Inventor
Original Artist
Original Scientist
Original Oceanographer
Original Philosopher
Original Epistemologist
Original Empiricist
Original Poet
Original Writer
Original Lover {wanting the best for others}
Original Chooser { Volition }
Original Economist
Original Emotion-ist {the full range of All Good Emotions}
Original Planner
Original Creator
Original Designer
Original Technologist
Original Educator
Original Everything Good , , ,

, , and we humans participate in all that up there since we are
made in the image of God , , ,

, , and that above is why human beings, made in the image of God,
have been able to build the modern world and will be able to keep making
progress in Science and Technology for ever and ever, even when the
human race makes the transition from Earthly human history to Eternity.

Humans are made in the image of God and God has , ,
~ An Intellect --- and so do we humans
~ Emotions --- and so do we humans
~ Volition {a Will, the ability to choose -- and so do we humans

God's Human Race Project ends victoriously.

Long live science. True science.

JAG


``

Well JAG,

By definition, the universe cannot exist without physical laws which are consistent wherever you go.

And mathematics is the language of science which describes the physical universe.

God not only invented math, at some level some kind of mathematics must describe who and what he is.

God is the perfect, all-encompassing equation.

So why does god make deformed children who suffer constant pain?

Are you an atheist?

you cannot not believe in something that is not there
there is no god--we've been over this many times

"you cannot not believe in something that is not there
there is no god--we've been over this many times"__Harmonica

How do you know that God is not in Andromeda?

How do you know that God is not now in Heaven and that
Heaven is not located at the edge of the known Universe?

If you say there is no God, then you would have to have
the ability to personally investigate the entire Universe.

Moreover, even IF you had that ability -- you could never
be certain that God was not moving around to prevent
you from finding Him. You would go to Andromeda and
personally investigate those untold trillion of smiles
and if God was in Andromeda He could move to the
edge of the known Universe to keep you from finding
Him.

In short you would actually have to be God, in order to
come to know that there is no God.

You would have to Omnipresent for starters.

But as it is you are a mere man that will, relatively
soon, if you die from natural causes, will meet one
of the Killer Diseases like Cancer and you will at some
point be on your last battlefield which will be your
Death Bed and at some point your doctor will shake
his head and walk away -- and you will be left alone
to face Death without a Savior. Consider praying this
prayer from the heart.

"Lord Jesus, I know that I am a sinner, and I ask for Your
forgiveness. I believe You died for my sins and rose from
the dead. I turn from my sins and invite You to come into
my heart and life. I want to trust and follow You as my
Lord and Savior."
____from the Billy Graham Crusades

Best.

JAG

``

.....plain and simple -no one can prove there is a god..it's up to you people who claim there is a god to prove it, not for us to disprove it
.....maybe there is a fairytale god that only exist in your minds--but no god that created the universe/etc

"plain and simple -no one can prove there is a god."___Harmonica
That is exactly correct.

"it's up to you people who claim there is a god to prove it,"___Harmonica
Incorrect
It is NOT up to we Christians to prove to you there is a God
It is up to YOU whether you want to believe it or not.
John 3:16
{1} believe and get Eternal Life
{2} refuse to believe and perish

"not for us to disprove it"__Harmonica
Correct.
You are free to remain in unbelief and perish as per John 3:16

It would be better for your eternal soul if you prayed that God
would not hide from you these salvation verses. Consider this
Bible verse below:

"At that time Jesus, full of joy through the Holy Spirit, said, "I
praise you, Father, LORD of heaven and earth, because you
have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and
revealed them to little children. Yes, Father, for this is what
you were pleased to do."__The Lord Jesus Luke 10:21

JAG

``

So you believe something is real that you know you can’t prove. Interesting.

 

[JAG]

"man's fall was biological."__Norwegen
My view is not biological, but spiritual.
The biology came after the fall and was
the by-product of the spiritual Fall
based on willful disobedience to a
known command of God -- a simple
test to determine who would be God?
{1} God
or
{2} Adam and Eve.

Adam and Eve decided, de facto, that THEY
would be God -- and God would NOT be God.

Nonetheless, biology was different before the fall than it was after the fall. Nature was dramatically reconstituted, correct? Lions and tigers were no longer herbivores; now they were carnivores.

"Man's anatomy changed. Wildlife anatomy changed.
The "world" was recreated. And so the confusion starts.
But I'm more curious about the events that occured
centuries later."__Norwegen
I would use the word cursed instead of recreated.
{sorry to be "picky" I'm only giving you my view.}

Your view is that this “curse” resulted in a radical reconfiguring of nature. Man was immortal, I presume, and yet he died.

As I alluded to earlier, labor pains were not new to
Adam after he forsook God's fruit to partake of
Satan's. __Norwegen
Agreed.

The pain of childbirth was merely multiplied,
as Genesis 2:16 tells us. "Norwegen
My view is there was zero childbirth labor
pains BEFORE the Fall. The command to be
fruitful and multiply was given BEFORE the
Fall and and there would have been zero
labor pains. Eve and all females would have
birthed children with zero pain -- if they had
not chosen to, de facto, become God.
They "said" de facto, We will NOT obey you.

You agree that labor pains were not new to Adam, and then say that before he fell, he did not, in fact, experience labor pains. Which is it?

"You agree that labor pains were not new to Adam, and then
say that before he fell, he did not, in fact, experience labor pains.
Which is it?"__Norwegen

I think we're just misunderstanding each other. Text communication is difficult.
All this would go much better over coffee.

My view is that BEFORE The Fall there was zero pain of any kind and that
all the pain came AFTER the Fall.

Put another way, my view is that had not Adam and Eve made the decision to
de facto, be their own god -- they would have have lived in the Garden eternally
and also branched out and had children that would have had children etc etc and
this process would have filled the Earth with untold billions all living free
from sin and free from ALL sin's bad consequences. Genesis is clear on the
fact that they would have NEVER died if they had not sinned.

The Lord Jesus has a Plan, His Plan is to restore the Earth to its original
sin-free condition. he will do this through His Christian Church. The
parable of the yeast. The Kingdom Of Heave is like yeast that a woman
put in a lump of dough and the yeast leavened the entire lump.
The yeast is the gospel.
The lump of dough is the world.
The entire world will be Christianized in the sesne
that the Human race as a race, will be salvaged.
"I make all things new."__The Lord Jesus
:"He shall have dominion" Psalm 72

By the way, the argument that true perfection demands that Adam and
Eve could not have sinned -- and the fact that they did sin, means they
were not created perfect is a BAD argument that undermines the
creation story in Genesis. I seem to recall somebody in this thread'
made that argument -- but I forgot who it was.

Best.

JAG

``

And for that god makes deformed babies in constant pain?

"And for that god makes deformed babies in constant pain?"TAZ

No God did not do that. You did that. You were part of the party
that did that and you will be held responsible for your part in
it and you will be severely punished for your part in it and your
logic will not save you. God originally made the world free from
the ravages of the Sin Principle but mankind demanded, de facto,
the right to become God and YOU were one of them that also
demanded it and you still demand it. You can continue to blame
God and you will be held responsible for that sin as well. There
is only one way out of your situation and that is to repent of
your sins and ask God for forgiveness -- otherwise you will
experience the perish of John 3:16.

Pray this prayer from the heart , , ,
"Lord Jesus, I need You. Thank You for dying on the cross for my
sins. I open the door of my life and receive You as my Savior and
Lord. Thank You for forgiving my sins and giving me eternal life.
Take control of the throne of my life. Make me the kind of person
You want me to be."
__from Campus Crusade For Christ

JAG

 

[JAG]

JAG Writes:
I LOVE science. True science. My view is that God LOVES
true science too, for example Math , , ,

My view is that Math originated in the nature of God who
is the Original Mathematician --- just as all the other
disciplines also originated in the nature of God.

God Is The , , ,
Original Mathematician
Original Physicist
Original Cosmologist
Original Inventor
Original Artist
Original Scientist
Original Oceanographer
Original Philosopher
Original Epistemologist
Original Empiricist
Original Poet
Original Writer
Original Lover {wanting the best for others}
Original Chooser { Volition }
Original Economist
Original Emotion-ist {the full range of All Good Emotions}
Original Planner
Original Creator
Original Designer
Original Technologist
Original Educator
Original Everything Good , , ,

, , and we humans participate in all that up there since we are
made in the image of God , , ,

, , and that above is why human beings, made in the image of God,
have been able to build the modern world and will be able to keep making
progress in Science and Technology for ever and ever, even when the
human race makes the transition from Earthly human history to Eternity.

Humans are made in the image of God and God has , ,
~ An Intellect --- and so do we humans
~ Emotions --- and so do we humans
~ Volition {a Will, the ability to choose -- and so do we humans

God's Human Race Project ends victoriously.

Long live science. True science.

JAG


``

Well JAG,

By definition, the universe cannot exist without physical laws which are consistent wherever you go.

And mathematics is the language of science which describes the physical universe.

God not only invented math, at some level some kind of mathematics must describe who and what he is.

God is the perfect, all-encompassing equation.

So why does god make deformed children who suffer constant pain?

Are you an atheist?

you cannot not believe in something that is not there
there is no god--we've been over this many times

"you cannot not believe in something that is not there
there is no god--we've been over this many times"__Harmonica

How do you know that God is not in Andromeda?

How do you know that God is not now in Heaven and that
Heaven is not located at the edge of the known Universe?

If you say there is no God, then you would have to have
the ability to personally investigate the entire Universe.

Moreover, even IF you had that ability -- you could never
be certain that God was not moving around to prevent
you from finding Him. You would go to Andromeda and
personally investigate those untold trillion of smiles
and if God was in Andromeda He could move to the
edge of the known Universe to keep you from finding
Him.

In short you would actually have to be God, in order to
come to know that there is no God.

You would have to Omnipresent for starters.

But as it is you are a mere man that will, relatively
soon, if you die from natural causes, will meet one
of the Killer Diseases like Cancer and you will at some
point be on your last battlefield which will be your
Death Bed and at some point your doctor will shake
his head and walk away -- and you will be left alone
to face Death without a Savior. Consider praying this
prayer from the heart.

"Lord Jesus, I know that I am a sinner, and I ask for Your
forgiveness. I believe You died for my sins and rose from
the dead. I turn from my sins and invite You to come into
my heart and life. I want to trust and follow You as my
Lord and Savior."
____from the Billy Graham Crusades

Best.

JAG

``

.....plain and simple -no one can prove there is a god..it's up to you people who claim there is a god to prove it, not for us to disprove it
.....maybe there is a fairytale god that only exist in your minds--but no god that created the universe/etc

"plain and simple -no one can prove there is a god."___Harmonica
That is exactly correct.

"it's up to you people who claim there is a god to prove it,"___Harmonica
Incorrect
It is NOT up to we Christians to prove to you there is a God
It is up to YOU whether you want to believe it or not.
John 3:16
{1} believe and get Eternal Life
{2} refuse to believe and perish

"not for us to disprove it"__Harmonica
Correct.
You are free to remain in unbelief and perish as per John 3:16

It would be better for your eternal soul if you prayed that God
would not hide from you these salvation verses. Consider this
Bible verse below:

"At that time Jesus, full of joy through the Holy Spirit, said, "I
praise you, Father, LORD of heaven and earth, because you
have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and
revealed them to little children. Yes, Father, for this is what
you were pleased to do."__The Lord Jesus Luke 10:21

JAG

``

So you believe something is real that you know you can’t prove. Interesting.

"So you believe something is real that you know you can’t prove. Interesting."__Taz

"Without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes
to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly
seek him."___Hebrews 11:6

Christianity is a Faith -- it is not a secularized intellectualized philosophical system.

JAG

``

 

[Taz]

"man's fall was biological."__Norwegen
My view is not biological, but spiritual.
The biology came after the fall and was
the by-product of the spiritual Fall
based on willful disobedience to a
known command of God -- a simple
test to determine who would be God?
{1} God
or
{2} Adam and Eve.

Adam and Eve decided, de facto, that THEY
would be God -- and God would NOT be God.

Nonetheless, biology was different before the fall than it was after the fall. Nature was dramatically reconstituted, correct? Lions and tigers were no longer herbivores; now they were carnivores.

"Man's anatomy changed. Wildlife anatomy changed.
The "world" was recreated. And so the confusion starts.
But I'm more curious about the events that occured
centuries later."__Norwegen
I would use the word cursed instead of recreated.
{sorry to be "picky" I'm only giving you my view.}

Your view is that this “curse” resulted in a radical reconfiguring of nature. Man was immortal, I presume, and yet he died.

As I alluded to earlier, labor pains were not new to
Adam after he forsook God's fruit to partake of
Satan's. __Norwegen
Agreed.

The pain of childbirth was merely multiplied,
as Genesis 2:16 tells us. "Norwegen
My view is there was zero childbirth labor
pains BEFORE the Fall. The command to be
fruitful and multiply was given BEFORE the
Fall and and there would have been zero
labor pains. Eve and all females would have
birthed children with zero pain -- if they had
not chosen to, de facto, become God.
They "said" de facto, We will NOT obey you.

You agree that labor pains were not new to Adam, and then say that before he fell, he did not, in fact, experience labor pains. Which is it?

"You agree that labor pains were not new to Adam, and then
say that before he fell, he did not, in fact, experience labor pains.
Which is it?"__Norwegen

I think we're just misunderstanding each other. Text communication is difficult.
All this would go much better over coffee.

My view is that BEFORE The Fall there was zero pain of any kind and that
all the pain came AFTER the Fall.

Put another way, my view is that had not Adam and Eve made the decision to
de facto, be their own god -- they would have have lived in the Garden eternally
and also branched out and had children that would have had children etc etc and
this process would have filled the Earth with untold billions all living free
from sin and free from ALL sin's bad consequences. Genesis is clear on the
fact that they would have NEVER died if they had not sinned.

The Lord Jesus has a Plan, His Plan is to restore the Earth to its original
sin-free condition. he will do this through His Christian Church. The
parable of the yeast. The Kingdom Of Heave is like yeast that a woman
put in a lump of dough and the yeast leavened the entire lump.
The yeast is the gospel.
The lump of dough is the world.
The entire world will be Christianized in the sesne
that the Human race as a race, will be salvaged.
"I make all things new."__The Lord Jesus
:"He shall have dominion" Psalm 72

By the way, the argument that true perfection demands that Adam and
Eve could not have sinned -- and the fact that they did sin, means they
were not created perfect is a BAD argument that undermines the
creation story in Genesis. I seem to recall somebody in this thread'
made that argument -- but I forgot who it was.

Best.

JAG

``

And for that god makes deformed babies in constant pain?

"And for that god makes deformed babies in constant pain?"TAZ

No God did not do that. You did that. You were part of the party
that did that and you will be held responsible for your part in
it and you will be severely punished for your part in it and your
logic will not save you. God originally made the world free from
the ravages of the Sin Principle but mankind demanded, de facto,
the right to become God and YOU were one of them that also
demanded it and you still demand it. You can continue to blame
God and you will be held responsible for that sin as well. There
is only one way out of your situation and that is to repent of
your sins and ask God for forgiveness -- otherwise you will
experience the perish of John 3:16.

Pray this prayer from the heart , , ,
"Lord Jesus, I need You. Thank You for dying on the cross for my
sins. I open the door of my life and receive You as my Savior and
Lord. Thank You for forgiving my sins and giving me eternal life.
Take control of the throne of my life. Make me the kind of person
You want me to be."
__from Campus Crusade For Christ

JAG

What part did I play to make deformed babies? I had nothing to do with that, get a grip.

 

[Taz]

JAG Writes:
I LOVE science. True science. My view is that God LOVES
true science too, for example Math , , ,

My view is that Math originated in the nature of God who
is the Original Mathematician --- just as all the other
disciplines also originated in the nature of God.

God Is The , , ,
Original Mathematician
Original Physicist
Original Cosmologist
Original Inventor
Original Artist
Original Scientist
Original Oceanographer
Original Philosopher
Original Epistemologist
Original Empiricist
Original Poet
Original Writer
Original Lover {wanting the best for others}
Original Chooser { Volition }
Original Economist
Original Emotion-ist {the full range of All Good Emotions}
Original Planner
Original Creator
Original Designer
Original Technologist
Original Educator
Original Everything Good , , ,

, , and we humans participate in all that up there since we are
made in the image of God , , ,

, , and that above is why human beings, made in the image of God,
have been able to build the modern world and will be able to keep making
progress in Science and Technology for ever and ever, even when the
human race makes the transition from Earthly human history to Eternity.

Humans are made in the image of God and God has , ,
~ An Intellect --- and so do we humans
~ Emotions --- and so do we humans
~ Volition {a Will, the ability to choose -- and so do we humans

God's Human Race Project ends victoriously.

Long live science. True science.

JAG


``

Well JAG,

By definition, the universe cannot exist without physical laws which are consistent wherever you go.

And mathematics is the language of science which describes the physical universe.

God not only invented math, at some level some kind of mathematics must describe who and what he is.

God is the perfect, all-encompassing equation.

So why does god make deformed children who suffer constant pain?

Are you an atheist?

you cannot not believe in something that is not there
there is no god--we've been over this many times

"you cannot not believe in something that is not there
there is no god--we've been over this many times"__Harmonica

How do you know that God is not in Andromeda?

How do you know that God is not now in Heaven and that
Heaven is not located at the edge of the known Universe?

If you say there is no God, then you would have to have
the ability to personally investigate the entire Universe.

Moreover, even IF you had that ability -- you could never
be certain that God was not moving around to prevent
you from finding Him. You would go to Andromeda and
personally investigate those untold trillion of smiles
and if God was in Andromeda He could move to the
edge of the known Universe to keep you from finding
Him.

In short you would actually have to be God, in order to
come to know that there is no God.

You would have to Omnipresent for starters.

But as it is you are a mere man that will, relatively
soon, if you die from natural causes, will meet one
of the Killer Diseases like Cancer and you will at some
point be on your last battlefield which will be your
Death Bed and at some point your doctor will shake
his head and walk away -- and you will be left alone
to face Death without a Savior. Consider praying this
prayer from the heart.

"Lord Jesus, I know that I am a sinner, and I ask for Your
forgiveness. I believe You died for my sins and rose from
the dead. I turn from my sins and invite You to come into
my heart and life. I want to trust and follow You as my
Lord and Savior."
____from the Billy Graham Crusades

Best.

JAG

``

.....plain and simple -no one can prove there is a god..it's up to you people who claim there is a god to prove it, not for us to disprove it
.....maybe there is a fairytale god that only exist in your minds--but no god that created the universe/etc

"plain and simple -no one can prove there is a god."___Harmonica
That is exactly correct.

"it's up to you people who claim there is a god to prove it,"___Harmonica
Incorrect
It is NOT up to we Christians to prove to you there is a God
It is up to YOU whether you want to believe it or not.
John 3:16
{1} believe and get Eternal Life
{2} refuse to believe and perish

"not for us to disprove it"__Harmonica
Correct.
You are free to remain in unbelief and perish as per John 3:16

It would be better for your eternal soul if you prayed that God
would not hide from you these salvation verses. Consider this
Bible verse below:

"At that time Jesus, full of joy through the Holy Spirit, said, "I
praise you, Father, LORD of heaven and earth, because you
have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and
revealed them to little children. Yes, Father, for this is what
you were pleased to do."__The Lord Jesus Luke 10:21

JAG

``

So you believe something is real that you know you can’t prove. Interesting.

"So you believe something is real that you know you can’t prove. Interesting."__Taz

"Without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes
to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly
seek him."___Hebrews 11:6

Christianity is a Faith -- it is not a secularized intellectualized philosophical system.

JAG

``

That’s lame, if god rewards the believers then why do some of them get cancer? Is that their reward?

 

[harmonica]

JAG Writes:
I LOVE science. True science. My view is that God LOVES
true science too, for example Math , , ,

My view is that Math originated in the nature of God who
is the Original Mathematician --- just as all the other
disciplines also originated in the nature of God.

God Is The , , ,
Original Mathematician
Original Physicist
Original Cosmologist
Original Inventor
Original Artist
Original Scientist
Original Oceanographer
Original Philosopher
Original Epistemologist
Original Empiricist
Original Poet
Original Writer
Original Lover {wanting the best for others}
Original Chooser { Volition }
Original Economist
Original Emotion-ist {the full range of All Good Emotions}
Original Planner
Original Creator
Original Designer
Original Technologist
Original Educator
Original Everything Good , , ,

, , and we humans participate in all that up there since we are
made in the image of God , , ,

, , and that above is why human beings, made in the image of God,
have been able to build the modern world and will be able to keep making
progress in Science and Technology for ever and ever, even when the
human race makes the transition from Earthly human history to Eternity.

Humans are made in the image of God and God has , ,
~ An Intellect --- and so do we humans
~ Emotions --- and so do we humans
~ Volition {a Will, the ability to choose -- and so do we humans

God's Human Race Project ends victoriously.

Long live science. True science.

JAG


``

Well JAG,

By definition, the universe cannot exist without physical laws which are consistent wherever you go.

And mathematics is the language of science which describes the physical universe.

God not only invented math, at some level some kind of mathematics must describe who and what he is.

God is the perfect, all-encompassing equation.

So why does god make deformed children who suffer constant pain?

Are you an atheist?

you cannot not believe in something that is not there
there is no god--we've been over this many times

"you cannot not believe in something that is not there
there is no god--we've been over this many times"__Harmonica

How do you know that God is not in Andromeda?

How do you know that God is not now in Heaven and that
Heaven is not located at the edge of the known Universe?

If you say there is no God, then you would have to have
the ability to personally investigate the entire Universe.

Moreover, even IF you had that ability -- you could never
be certain that God was not moving around to prevent
you from finding Him. You would go to Andromeda and
personally investigate those untold trillion of smiles
and if God was in Andromeda He could move to the
edge of the known Universe to keep you from finding
Him.

In short you would actually have to be God, in order to
come to know that there is no God.

You would have to Omnipresent for starters.

But as it is you are a mere man that will, relatively
soon, if you die from natural causes, will meet one
of the Killer Diseases like Cancer and you will at some
point be on your last battlefield which will be your
Death Bed and at some point your doctor will shake
his head and walk away -- and you will be left alone
to face Death without a Savior. Consider praying this
prayer from the heart.

"Lord Jesus, I know that I am a sinner, and I ask for Your
forgiveness. I believe You died for my sins and rose from
the dead. I turn from my sins and invite You to come into
my heart and life. I want to trust and follow You as my
Lord and Savior."
____from the Billy Graham Crusades

Best.

JAG

``

.....plain and simple -no one can prove there is a god..it's up to you people who claim there is a god to prove it, not for us to disprove it
.....maybe there is a fairytale god that only exist in your minds--but no god that created the universe/etc

"plain and simple -no one can prove there is a god."___Harmonica
That is exactly correct.

"it's up to you people who claim there is a god to prove it,"___Harmonica
Incorrect
It is NOT up to we Christians to prove to you there is a God
It is up to YOU whether you want to believe it or not.
John 3:16
{1} believe and get Eternal Life
{2} refuse to believe and perish

"not for us to disprove it"__Harmonica
Correct.
You are free to remain in unbelief and perish as per John 3:16

It would be better for your eternal soul if you prayed that God
would not hide from you these salvation verses. Consider this
Bible verse below:

"At that time Jesus, full of joy through the Holy Spirit, said, "I
praise you, Father, LORD of heaven and earth, because you
have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and
revealed them to little children. Yes, Father, for this is what
you were pleased to do."__The Lord Jesus Luke 10:21

JAG

``

So you believe something is real that you know you can’t prove. Interesting.

"So you believe something is real that you know you can’t prove. Interesting."__Taz

"Without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes
to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly
seek him."___Hebrews 11:6

Christianity is a Faith -- it is not a secularized intellectualized philosophical system.

JAG

``

exactly --faith
strong belief in God or in the doctrines of a religion, based on spiritual apprehension rather than proof.

 

[JAG]

Taz
harmonica
The Bible teaches that all men share in the guilt
of Original Sin and that they had their part in it,
and personally participated in it. How did they
participate in it? Answer: By choosing to sin.
So that all men are, in that sense responsible for
deformed babies and cancer in children and
human diseases and all the other bad consequences
of the Sin Principle. We ALL have participated in
the Sin Principle and we ALL share in the guilt of
that participation.

You have 2 choices:
{1} You can accept by faith what the Bible says
about the human condition and you can live
accordingly , , ,
, , , OR , , ,
{2} you can refuse to do that and perish.

The Sovereign God has made a way out of this mess
for all of us, but you have to say NO to your own wisdom
and what you all "Logic" and you have to turn to the
Lord by Faith and ask for His forgiveness and
His restoration.

Here is Step one:
Pray this simple prayer from your heart , , ,

God our Father, I believe that out of Your infinite love You have
created me. In a thousand ways I have shunned Your love.
I repent of each and every one of my sins. Please forgive me.
Thank You for sending Your Son to die for me, to save me from
eternal death. I choose this day to enter into (renew my)
covenant with You and to place Jesus at the center of my heart.
I surrender to Him as Lord over my whole life. I ask You now to
flood my soul with the gift of the Holy Spirit so that my life may
be transformed. Give me the grace and courage to live as a
disciple in Your Church for the rest of my days. In Jesus name
I pray Amen."
___from Saint Paul Street Evangelization

Best.

JAG

``

 

[Taz]

Taz
harmonica
The Bible teaches that all men share in the guilt
of Original Sin and that they had their part in it,
and personally participated in it. How did they
participate in it? Answer: By choosing to sin.
So that all men are, in that sense responsible for
deformed babies and cancer in children and
human diseases and all the other bad consequences
of the Sin Principle. We ALL have participated in
the Sin Principle and we ALL share in the guilt of
that participation.

You have 2 choices:
{1} You can accept by faith what the Bible says
about the human condition and you can live
accordingly , , ,
, , , OR , , ,
{2} you can refuse to do that and perish.

The Sovereign God has made a way out of this mess
for all of us, but you have to say NO to your own wisdom
and what you all "Logic" and you have to turn to the
Lord by Faith and ask for His forgiveness and
His restoration.

Here is Step one:
Pray this simple prayer from your heart , , ,

God our Father, I believe that out of Your infinite love You have
created me. In a thousand ways I have shunned Your love.
I repent of each and every one of my sins. Please forgive me.
Thank You for sending Your Son to die for me, to save me from
eternal death. I choose this day to enter into (renew my)
covenant with You and to place Jesus at the center of my heart.
I surrender to Him as Lord over my whole life. I ask You now to
flood my soul with the gift of the Holy Spirit so that my life may
be transformed. Give me the grace and courage to live as a
disciple in Your Church for the rest of my days. In Jesus name
I pray Amen."
___from Saint Paul Street Evangelization

Best.

JAG

``

I personally had nothing to do with Adam's fall, or whatever fall happened in the bible. I wasn't born yet.

 

[norwegen]

"man's fall was biological."__Norwegen
My view is not biological, but spiritual.
The biology came after the fall and was
the by-product of the spiritual Fall
based on willful disobedience to a
known command of God -- a simple
test to determine who would be God?
{1} God
or
{2} Adam and Eve.

Adam and Eve decided, de facto, that THEY
would be God -- and God would NOT be God.

Nonetheless, biology was different before the fall than it was after the fall. Nature was dramatically reconstituted, correct? Lions and tigers were no longer herbivores; now they were carnivores.

"Man's anatomy changed. Wildlife anatomy changed.
The "world" was recreated. And so the confusion starts.
But I'm more curious about the events that occured
centuries later."__Norwegen
I would use the word cursed instead of recreated.
{sorry to be "picky" I'm only giving you my view.}

Your view is that this “curse” resulted in a radical reconfiguring of nature. Man was immortal, I presume, and yet he died.

As I alluded to earlier, labor pains were not new to
Adam after he forsook God's fruit to partake of
Satan's. __Norwegen
Agreed.

The pain of childbirth was merely multiplied,
as Genesis 2:16 tells us. "Norwegen
My view is there was zero childbirth labor
pains BEFORE the Fall. The command to be
fruitful and multiply was given BEFORE the
Fall and and there would have been zero
labor pains. Eve and all females would have
birthed children with zero pain -- if they had
not chosen to, de facto, become God.
They "said" de facto, We will NOT obey you.

You agree that labor pains were not new to Adam, and then say that before he fell, he did not, in fact, experience labor pains. Which is it?

"You agree that labor pains were not new to Adam, and then
say that before he fell, he did not, in fact, experience labor pains.
Which is it?"__Norwegen

I think we're just misunderstanding each other. Text communication is difficult.
All this would go much better over coffee.

My view is that BEFORE The Fall there was zero pain of any kind and that
all the pain came AFTER the Fall.

Put another way, my view is that had not Adam and Eve made the decision to
de facto, be their own god -- they would have have lived in the Garden eternally
and also branched out and had children that would have had children etc etc and
this process would have filled the Earth with untold billions all living free
from sin and free from ALL sin's bad consequences. Genesis is clear on the
fact that they would have NEVER died if they had not sinned.

The Lord Jesus has a Plan, His Plan is to restore the Earth to its original
sin-free condition. he will do this through His Christian Church. The
parable of the yeast. The Kingdom Of Heave is like yeast that a woman
put in a lump of dough and the yeast leavened the entire lump.
The yeast is the gospel.
The lump of dough is the world.
The entire world will be Christianized in the sesne
that the Human race as a race, will be salvaged.
"I make all things new."__The Lord Jesus
:"He shall have dominion" Psalm 72

By the way, the argument that true perfection demands that Adam and
Eve could not have sinned -- and the fact that they did sin, means they
were not created perfect is a BAD argument that undermines the
creation story in Genesis. I seem to recall somebody in this thread'
made that argument -- but I forgot who it was.

Best.

JAG

``

You say “unfallen” man sinned and invited physical suffering on himself (pain in childbearing, disease, and death).

As a result of sin in the Garden, flesh now dies, correct? Before sinning, flesh did not die, but now it does. Right?

"You say “unfallen” man sinned and invited physical suffering on himself (pain in childbearing, disease, and death).
As a result of sin in the Garden, flesh now dies, correct? Before sinning, flesh did not die, but now it does. Right?"___Norwegen
Yes correct. That is my position.

JAG

``

The world changed, then. Literally. A world in which fanged creatures eat grass and all creatures roam the earth forever is in no way a world in which fanged creatures eat other creatures and flesh decays. Deny it all you want, but a belief that man and his environment were recreated is a belief that the Bible does not teach and that really does nothing more than caricature it.

Biological death is not a death that concerned the ancient Israelites. The arrest of all biological functions is not an idea upon which they built their faith or their narrative.

If it is - if that is what Jesus came to restore, or redeem - then he failed.

 

[harmonica]

Taz
harmonica
The Bible teaches that all men share in the guilt
of Original Sin and that they had their part in it,
and personally participated in it. How did they
participate in it? Answer: By choosing to sin.
So that all men are, in that sense responsible for
deformed babies and cancer in children and
human diseases and all the other bad consequences
of the Sin Principle. We ALL have participated in
the Sin Principle and we ALL share in the guilt of
that participation.

You have 2 choices:
{1} You can accept by faith what the Bible says
about the human condition and you can live
accordingly , , ,
, , , OR , , ,
{2} you can refuse to do that and perish.

The Sovereign God has made a way out of this mess
for all of us, but you have to say NO to your own wisdom
and what you all "Logic" and you have to turn to the
Lord by Faith and ask for His forgiveness and
His restoration.

Here is Step one:
Pray this simple prayer from your heart , , ,

God our Father, I believe that out of Your infinite love You have
created me. In a thousand ways I have shunned Your love.
I repent of each and every one of my sins. Please forgive me.
Thank You for sending Your Son to die for me, to save me from
eternal death. I choose this day to enter into (renew my)
covenant with You and to place Jesus at the center of my heart.
I surrender to Him as Lord over my whole life. I ask You now to
flood my soul with the gift of the Holy Spirit so that my life may
be transformed. Give me the grace and courage to live as a
disciple in Your Church for the rest of my days. In Jesus name
I pray Amen."
___from Saint Paul Street Evangelization

Best.

JAG

``

....just what I'm talking about--I'm not going to perish or to hell/etc

 

[JAG]

"man's fall was biological."__Norwegen
My view is not biological, but spiritual.
The biology came after the fall and was
the by-product of the spiritual Fall
based on willful disobedience to a
known command of God -- a simple
test to determine who would be God?
{1} God
or
{2} Adam and Eve.

Adam and Eve decided, de facto, that THEY
would be God -- and God would NOT be God.

Nonetheless, biology was different before the fall than it was after the fall. Nature was dramatically reconstituted, correct? Lions and tigers were no longer herbivores; now they were carnivores.

"Man's anatomy changed. Wildlife anatomy changed.
The "world" was recreated. And so the confusion starts.
But I'm more curious about the events that occured
centuries later."__Norwegen
I would use the word cursed instead of recreated.
{sorry to be "picky" I'm only giving you my view.}

Your view is that this “curse” resulted in a radical reconfiguring of nature. Man was immortal, I presume, and yet he died.

As I alluded to earlier, labor pains were not new to
Adam after he forsook God's fruit to partake of
Satan's. __Norwegen
Agreed.

The pain of childbirth was merely multiplied,
as Genesis 2:16 tells us. "Norwegen
My view is there was zero childbirth labor
pains BEFORE the Fall. The command to be
fruitful and multiply was given BEFORE the
Fall and and there would have been zero
labor pains. Eve and all females would have
birthed children with zero pain -- if they had
not chosen to, de facto, become God.
They "said" de facto, We will NOT obey you.

You agree that labor pains were not new to Adam, and then say that before he fell, he did not, in fact, experience labor pains. Which is it?

"You agree that labor pains were not new to Adam, and then
say that before he fell, he did not, in fact, experience labor pains.
Which is it?"__Norwegen

I think we're just misunderstanding each other. Text communication is difficult.
All this would go much better over coffee.

My view is that BEFORE The Fall there was zero pain of any kind and that
all the pain came AFTER the Fall.

Put another way, my view is that had not Adam and Eve made the decision to
de facto, be their own god -- they would have have lived in the Garden eternally
and also branched out and had children that would have had children etc etc and
this process would have filled the Earth with untold billions all living free
from sin and free from ALL sin's bad consequences. Genesis is clear on the
fact that they would have NEVER died if they had not sinned.

The Lord Jesus has a Plan, His Plan is to restore the Earth to its original
sin-free condition. he will do this through His Christian Church. The
parable of the yeast. The Kingdom Of Heave is like yeast that a woman
put in a lump of dough and the yeast leavened the entire lump.
The yeast is the gospel.
The lump of dough is the world.
The entire world will be Christianized in the sesne
that the Human race as a race, will be salvaged.
"I make all things new."__The Lord Jesus
:"He shall have dominion" Psalm 72

By the way, the argument that true perfection demands that Adam and
Eve could not have sinned -- and the fact that they did sin, means they
were not created perfect is a BAD argument that undermines the
creation story in Genesis. I seem to recall somebody in this thread'
made that argument -- but I forgot who it was.

Best.

JAG

``

You say “unfallen” man sinned and invited physical suffering on himself (pain in childbearing, disease, and death).

As a result of sin in the Garden, flesh now dies, correct? Before sinning, flesh did not die, but now it does. Right?

"You say “unfallen” man sinned and invited physical suffering on himself (pain in childbearing, disease, and death).
As a result of sin in the Garden, flesh now dies, correct? Before sinning, flesh did not die, but now it does. Right?"
___Norwegen
Yes correct. That is my position.

JAG

``

The world changed, then. Literally. A world in which fanged creatures eat grass and all creatures roam the earth forever is in no way a world in which fanged creatures eat other creatures and flesh decays. Deny it all you want, but a belief that man and his environment were recreated is a belief that the Bible does not teach and that really does nothing more than caricature it.

Biological death is not a death that concerned the ancient Israelites. The arrest of all biological functions is not an idea upon which they built their faith or their narrative.

If it is - if that is what Jesus came to restore, or redeem - then he failed.

"The world changed, then. Literally. A world in which fanged creatures eat
grass and all creatures roam the earth forever is in no way a world in which
fanged creatures eat other creatures and flesh decays. Deny it all you want,
but a belief that man and his environment were recreated is a belief that
the Bible does not teach and that really does nothing more than caricature it.

Biological death is not a death that concerned the ancient Israelites. The
arrest of all biological functions is not an idea upon which they built their
faith or their narrative.

If it is - if that is what Jesus came to restore, or redeem - then he failed."
____Norwegen

I have no idea what you're are trying to establish as true.
You seem to strongly overwork the word "recreated"
and from all I can tell you are building your view on
and around the word "recreated" -- the Bible does
not say the world was "recreated" and I have no idea
what you are trying to establish as true.

The Bible is crystal clear that , , ,
{1} God made man and the earth sin free.
{2} There was no sin before The Fall
{3} Adam and Eve chose to sin.
{4} The results of their sin was pain, disease, and death
{4} God and His Christ, will at some future point, "restore Eden"
and man and the Earth will again be sin free and all pain,
suffering, disease, and death will be eliminated.

JAG

``

 

[JAG]

Taz
harmonica
The Bible teaches that all men share in the guilt
of Original Sin and that they had their part in it,
and personally participated in it. How did they
participate in it? Answer: By choosing to sin.
So that all men are, in that sense responsible for
deformed babies and cancer in children and
human diseases and all the other bad consequences
of the Sin Principle. We ALL have participated in
the Sin Principle and we ALL share in the guilt of
that participation.

You have 2 choices:
{1} You can accept by faith what the Bible says
about the human condition and you can live
accordingly , , ,
, , , OR , , ,
{2} you can refuse to do that and perish.

The Sovereign God has made a way out of this mess
for all of us, but you have to say NO to your own wisdom
and what you all "Logic" and you have to turn to the
Lord by Faith and ask for His forgiveness and
His restoration.

Here is Step one:
Pray this simple prayer from your heart , , ,

God our Father, I believe that out of Your infinite love You have
created me. In a thousand ways I have shunned Your love.
I repent of each and every one of my sins. Please forgive me.
Thank You for sending Your Son to die for me, to save me from
eternal death. I choose this day to enter into (renew my)
covenant with You and to place Jesus at the center of my heart.
I surrender to Him as Lord over my whole life. I ask You now to
flood my soul with the gift of the Holy Spirit so that my life may
be transformed. Give me the grace and courage to live as a
disciple in Your Church for the rest of my days. In Jesus name
I pray Amen."
___from Saint Paul Street Evangelization

Best.

JAG

``

I personally had nothing to do with Adam's fall, or whatever fall happened in the bible. I wasn't born yet.

"I personally had nothing to do with Adam's fall, or
whatever fall happened in the bible. I wasn't born yet."
__Taz

Incorrect.

It does not matter that your were not "born yet."

The Bible teaches that all men share in the guilt
of Original Sin and that they had their part in it,
and personally participated in it. How did they
participate in it? Answer: By choosing to sin.

So that all men are, in that sense, responsible for
deformed babies and cancer in children and
human diseases and all the other bad consequences
of the Sin Principle.

We ALL have participated in The Sin Principle and
we ALL share in the guilt of that participation
because we all have used our Free Will to
deliberately sin and thereby we participate
in the Sin Principle and share In Adam's Original
Sin.

You will be held accountable for your personable
participation in it -- regardless of what you say to
God at The Judgment. You will NOT be able to tell
God at The Judgment that you did not sin -- and
you KNOW it. You will be held accountable for your
personal sins at the Judgment.

But God loved you and He made a way out for you
and for all of us.

John 3:16
"For God so loved the world that He gave His one
and only Son that whoever believes on Him shall
not perish but have Eternal Life."

Revelation 3:20
"Here I am! I stand at the door and knock. If anyone
hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in
and eat with that person, and they with me. "
___The Lord Jesus

All you have to do is ask for forgiveness and pray,
from the heart, a simple prayer such as , , , ,

"Lord Jesus, I know that I am a sinner, and I ask for
Your forgiveness. I believe You died for my sins and
rose from the dead. I turn from my sins and invite
You to come into my heart and life. I want to trust
and follow You as my Lord and Savior."

"everyone who calls on the name of the LORD
will be saved"___Acts 2:21

Best.

JAG

``

 

[Taz]

Taz
harmonica
The Bible teaches that all men share in the guilt
of Original Sin and that they had their part in it,
and personally participated in it. How did they
participate in it? Answer: By choosing to sin.
So that all men are, in that sense responsible for
deformed babies and cancer in children and
human diseases and all the other bad consequences
of the Sin Principle. We ALL have participated in
the Sin Principle and we ALL share in the guilt of
that participation.

You have 2 choices:
{1} You can accept by faith what the Bible says
about the human condition and you can live
accordingly , , ,
, , , OR , , ,
{2} you can refuse to do that and perish.

The Sovereign God has made a way out of this mess
for all of us, but you have to say NO to your own wisdom
and what you all "Logic" and you have to turn to the
Lord by Faith and ask for His forgiveness and
His restoration.

Here is Step one:
Pray this simple prayer from your heart , , ,

God our Father, I believe that out of Your infinite love You have
created me. In a thousand ways I have shunned Your love.
I repent of each and every one of my sins. Please forgive me.
Thank You for sending Your Son to die for me, to save me from
eternal death. I choose this day to enter into (renew my)
covenant with You and to place Jesus at the center of my heart.
I surrender to Him as Lord over my whole life. I ask You now to
flood my soul with the gift of the Holy Spirit so that my life may
be transformed. Give me the grace and courage to live as a
disciple in Your Church for the rest of my days. In Jesus name
I pray Amen."
___from Saint Paul Street Evangelization

Best.

JAG

``

I personally had nothing to do with Adam's fall, or whatever fall happened in the bible. I wasn't born yet.

"I personally had nothing to do with Adam's fall, or
whatever fall happened in the bible. I wasn't born yet."
__Taz

Incorrect.

It does not matter that your were not "born yet."

The Bible teaches that all men share in the guilt
of Original Sin and that they had their part in it,
and personally participated in it. How did they
participate in it? Answer: By choosing to sin.

So that all men are, in that sense, responsible for
deformed babies and cancer in children and
human diseases and all the other bad consequences
of the Sin Principle.

We ALL have participated in The Sin Principle and
we ALL share in the guilt of that participation
because we all have used our Free Will to
deliberately sin and thereby we participate
in the Sin Principle and share In Adam's Original
Sin.

You will be held accountable for your personable
participation in it -- regardless of what you say to
God at The Judgment. You will NOT be able to tell
God at The Judgment that you did not sin -- and
you KNOW it. You will be held accountable for your
personal sins at the Judgment.

But God loved you and He made a way out for you
and for all of us.

John 3:16
"For God so loved the world that He gave His one
and only Son that whoever believes on Him shall
not perish but have Eternal Life."

Revelation 3:20
"Here I am! I stand at the door and knock. If anyone
hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in
and eat with that person, and they with me. "
___The Lord Jesus

All you have to do is ask for forgiveness and pray,
from the heart, a simple prayer such as , , , ,

"Lord Jesus, I know that I am a sinner, and I ask for
Your forgiveness. I believe You died for my sins and
rose from the dead. I turn from my sins and invite
You to come into my heart and life. I want to trust
and follow You as my Lord and Savior."

"everyone who calls on the name of the LORD
will be saved"___Acts 2:21

Best.

JAG

``

Nope, that's wrong, man had fallen thousands of years before I was born. So it's impossible that I had anything to do with it.

 

[JAG]

Taz
harmonica
The Bible teaches that all men share in the guilt
of Original Sin and that they had their part in it,
and personally participated in it. How did they
participate in it? Answer: By choosing to sin.
So that all men are, in that sense responsible for
deformed babies and cancer in children and
human diseases and all the other bad consequences
of the Sin Principle. We ALL have participated in
the Sin Principle and we ALL share in the guilt of
that participation.

You have 2 choices:
{1} You can accept by faith what the Bible says
about the human condition and you can live
accordingly , , ,
, , , OR , , ,
{2} you can refuse to do that and perish.

The Sovereign God has made a way out of this mess
for all of us, but you have to say NO to your own wisdom
and what you all "Logic" and you have to turn to the
Lord by Faith and ask for His forgiveness and
His restoration.

Here is Step one:
Pray this simple prayer from your heart , , ,

God our Father, I believe that out of Your infinite love You have
created me. In a thousand ways I have shunned Your love.
I repent of each and every one of my sins. Please forgive me.
Thank You for sending Your Son to die for me, to save me from
eternal death. I choose this day to enter into (renew my)
covenant with You and to place Jesus at the center of my heart.
I surrender to Him as Lord over my whole life. I ask You now to
flood my soul with the gift of the Holy Spirit so that my life may
be transformed. Give me the grace and courage to live as a
disciple in Your Church for the rest of my days. In Jesus name
I pray Amen."
___from Saint Paul Street Evangelization

Best.

JAG

``

....just what I'm talking about--I'm not going to perish or to hell/etc

"....just what I'm talking about--I'm not going to perish
or to hell/etc"___Harmonica

Just curious.
How do you KNOW for a FACT that John 3:16 is not true?

How do you KNOW for a FACT that God is not somewhere in
Andromeda?

You would have to have the attributes of God Himself, in order
to KNOW that God does not exist.

Your statements are Faith-based statements. You are a Man Of Faith
because you state as being true that which you cannot possibly
demonstrate as being true with evidence. Your statement "I am
not going to perish" is a Faith based statement.

So?

So since you are already exercising faith-- you can make the
transition over to exercising Faith in the Lord Jesus as your
Savior. Give this serious thought.

JAG

``