God help us , we didn't learn from VietNam

whitehall

Diamond Member
Joined
Dec 28, 2010
Messages
46,862
Reaction score
10,671
Points
2,040
Location
Western Va.
LBJ's fake "Tonkin Gulf Incident" set the stage for American involvement in Vietnam. The only way to win a war is to take and hold real estate. Democrats thought the new concept would be to win a piece of ground in a desperate battle and give it away the next day while hoping the enemy would give up. It didn't happen and LBJ told the world he had enough when Walter Cronkite called the Tet victory a "stalemate".
Today we have a virtually forgotton war going on in Afghanistan where democrats set the rules so that the greatest Military in the world has to fight by rules set by a rag-tag bunch of tribes. It's deja-vu all over again. We watch cable TV as NATO jets kicked the snot out of Libyan loyalists and supported the rebels as they swept to victory. How are we doing in Afghanistan? No jets? No friendly rebels? No victory? If we don't want to kill people and break things lets get the hell out of there.
 
OP
whitehall

whitehall

Diamond Member
Joined
Dec 28, 2010
Messages
46,862
Reaction score
10,671
Points
2,040
Location
Western Va.
are you this stupid in real life?
You gotta laugh when you see a bird with a pea sized brain who can't seem to put an argument together and just squalks stupid.
 

Sallow

The Big Bad Wolf.
Joined
Oct 4, 2010
Messages
56,532
Reaction score
6,241
Points
1,840
Location
New York City
are you this stupid in real life?
You gotta laugh when you see a bird with a pea sized brain who can't seem to put an argument together and just squalks stupid.
How's this?

Vietnam was a war crime.
Iraq was a war crime.

Fighting Afghanistan like WWII was the biggest fucking mistake ever.

Go in. Kill the guys you want dead from the air. Shower the kiddies with chocolate. Stick a fork in it. Light of a cigar..and get the fuck out.
 
OP
whitehall

whitehall

Diamond Member
Joined
Dec 28, 2010
Messages
46,862
Reaction score
10,671
Points
2,040
Location
Western Va.
are you this stupid in real life?
You gotta laugh when you see a bird with a pea sized brain who can't seem to put an argument together and just squalks stupid.
How's this?

Vietnam was a war crime.
Iraq was a war crime.

Fighting Afghanistan like WWII was the biggest fucking mistake ever.

Go in. Kill the guys you want dead from the air. Shower the kiddies with chocolate. Stick a fork in it. Light of a cigar..and get the fuck out.
Geez, can't I get a rational argument about VN? Iraq worked. American Military went farther, faster and took less casualties than any other conflict of it's type. Democrats hated it because they hate victory when a republican is in office. They had to swallow their pride after several attempts to demonize members of the Military though. Democrat senator John Kerry called Soldiers "terrorists" and former democrat congressman John Murtha called Marines "murderers". Democrat majority leader Harry Reid told Troops "the war is lost" just before the Troop Surge and democrats paid for a 10,000 full page ad in the NY Times calling the commander of US Troops "betray-us". Iraq was liberated but democrats tightened the screws on Afghanistan. They made it clear that members of the Military would be tried for murder if a single civilian was killed in a bombing mission or by artillery fire or caught in a small arms crossfire.
 

Sallow

The Big Bad Wolf.
Joined
Oct 4, 2010
Messages
56,532
Reaction score
6,241
Points
1,840
Location
New York City
You gotta laugh when you see a bird with a pea sized brain who can't seem to put an argument together and just squalks stupid.
How's this?

Vietnam was a war crime.
Iraq was a war crime.

Fighting Afghanistan like WWII was the biggest fucking mistake ever.

Go in. Kill the guys you want dead from the air. Shower the kiddies with chocolate. Stick a fork in it. Light of a cigar..and get the fuck out.
Geez, can't I get a rational argument about VN? Iraq worked. American Military went farther, faster and took less casualties than any other conflict of it's type. Democrats hated it because they hate victory when a republican is in office. They had to swallow their pride after several attempts to demonize members of the Military though. Democrat senator John Kerry called Soldiers "terrorists" and former democrat congressman John Murtha called Marines "murderers". Democrat majority leader Harry Reid told Troops "the war is lost" just before the Troop Surge and democrats paid for a 10,000 full page ad in the NY Times calling the commander of US Troops "betray-us". Iraq was liberated but democrats tightened the screws on Afghanistan. They made it clear that members of the Military would be tried for murder if a single civilian was killed in a bombing mission or by artillery fire or caught in a small arms crossfire.
That's nuts.

What happened in Iraq was exactly what was predicted to happen in Iraq. It's withered military would collapse fast..because it HAD NO WMDs or the will to fight..and an insurgency would rise up and kill ALOT of people.

THATS WHAT HAPPENED.

And Poppa Bush had to send in his best men, Baker and Gates, to clean up the mess. It wasn't easy and it wasn't cheap.

AND WE ARE STILL THERE.

Afghanistan was ANOTHER clusterfuck. The whole thing could have been over there.

But it wasn't. So now we have 2 of the longest and most expensive wars in US history. At the same freakin time.
 
OP
whitehall

whitehall

Diamond Member
Joined
Dec 28, 2010
Messages
46,862
Reaction score
10,671
Points
2,040
Location
Western Va.
How's this?

Vietnam was a war crime.
Iraq was a war crime.

Fighting Afghanistan like WWII was the biggest fucking mistake ever.

Go in. Kill the guys you want dead from the air. Shower the kiddies with chocolate. Stick a fork in it. Light of a cigar..and get the fuck out.
Geez, can't I get a rational argument about VN? Iraq worked. American Military went farther, faster and took less casualties than any other conflict of it's type. Democrats hated it because they hate victory when a republican is in office. They had to swallow their pride after several attempts to demonize members of the Military though. Democrat senator John Kerry called Soldiers "terrorists" and former democrat congressman John Murtha called Marines "murderers". Democrat majority leader Harry Reid told Troops "the war is lost" just before the Troop Surge and democrats paid for a 10,000 full page ad in the NY Times calling the commander of US Troops "betray-us". Iraq was liberated but democrats tightened the screws on Afghanistan. They made it clear that members of the Military would be tried for murder if a single civilian was killed in a bombing mission or by artillery fire or caught in a small arms crossfire.
That's nuts.

What happened in Iraq was exactly what was predicted to happen in Iraq. It's withered military would collapse fast..because it HAD NO WMDs or the will to fight..and an insurgency would rise up and kill ALOT of people.

THATS WHAT HAPPENED.

And Poppa Bush had to send in his best men, Baker and Gates, to clean up the mess. It wasn't easy and it wasn't cheap.

AND WE ARE STILL THERE.

Afghanistan was ANOTHER clusterfuck. The whole thing could have been over there.

But it wasn't. So now we have 2 of the longest and most expensive wars in US history. At the same freakin time.
The greatest Military in the world can't seem to get a break from sissies on the left. Media sources warned Bush not to tangle with the Iraq military or "risk coming back in body bags". Americans beat the sh+t out of them and the liberal media never apologized. The left still can't bring themselves to congratulate the US Military for the job they did in Iraq ...and I might add the job they were forced to do in VN. The democrat party did all it could do short of treason and even long on treason to undermine the effort in Iraq even after they gave the president authorization to use the Military. Reid should have been indicted and Kerry should have been his cell mate. Murtha is dead.
 
OP
whitehall

whitehall

Diamond Member
Joined
Dec 28, 2010
Messages
46,862
Reaction score
10,671
Points
2,040
Location
Western Va.
Here's the deal lefties and fuzz face. Don't give me the B.S. about WMD's and all the political rhetoric. I heard it all forty years ago. The point is that the Afghanistan mission is VietNam all over again because politicians set it up that way. Live with it and support it if you are stupid enough but be aware of it.
 

namvet

Gold Member
Joined
May 20, 2008
Messages
9,549
Reaction score
1,650
Points
245
Location
across the pond
best speech a libtard prez ever made

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xRl1wfbi4L8]Lyndon B. Johnson - Declares Not to Seek Re-election - YouTube[/ame]
 

Mad Scientist

Feels Good!
Joined
Sep 15, 2008
Messages
24,196
Reaction score
5,422
Points
270
I don't think winning was the idea in Nam, just making Billions for the Military Industrial Complex.

Anyone ever see the Robert McNamara documentary "Fog of War"? In it, he visits Vietnam, meets with the North Vietnamese Leader at the time and they both agree that nothing happened in the Gulf of Tonkin. So yes, it was a staged event.
 

High_Gravity

Belligerent Drunk
Joined
Nov 19, 2010
Messages
40,159
Reaction score
7,084
Points
260
Location
Richmond VA
I think the mistakes started when we started trying to rebuild Iraq and Afghanistan, you cannot rebuild a country when you are still fighting a war in it, that would be like trying to rebuild Germany and Japan during WW2 when we were still actively fighting the Nazis and Japanese. Reconstruction needs to happen only after the fighting is done.
 

Firehorse

Free Thinker
Joined
Sep 4, 2011
Messages
548
Reaction score
77
Points
28
VietNam was not a war that was designed to be won. It was crime to get our military involved in a war such as that. Im not against our military or our generals, but when people higher then general are calling the shots problems start.

It seems that Repulicans seem more at easy turning the dogs loose to do what they do, while Democrats want to slowly release the chain, or shorten it, or lengthen in at their whim. Its almost like its a power trip for them to have the dogs on the chain at all

I have heard various reasons for 'Nam and not a single one of them leads me tobelieve that it was a win-able war. The same can be said about the war on terrorism. There is not an objective that the military can acheive to win the war. It is a war on what basically amounts to a religion and the only way to win that war is either political or genocide ... There is no capture the flag in dealing with terrorism.

I believe that when we liberated Iraq and begain building schools and giving the population a taste of freedom, it became their job (not our military) to continue to carry the fight. If the people dont want freedom then it cannot be forced upon them because they will vote in a tyrant abd give him the power to make decisions for them.

Afganastan is the same way. The terrorists dont want us there (obviously), the trible lords dont want us there (other then to keep their little slice of worthless terrian safe) and the afganie government doesnt want us there (other then to keep the terrorists at bay ... in the worlds eyes) ... I get the feeling that we are being used by all parties involved in Afganistan, and that makes me want to get the people we want then to GTFU. Leave them to live in their 5th century world and let them sleep with their dogs.

That wouldnt stop terrorism, nothing the military can do will do that (other then the unthinkable) ... Its not a good situation. We as americans know what a nation could be if the people are allowed to better themselves in a safe representative government, but you cant tell people that grew up learning that if the law didnt come from Allah that its not a law you should follow ... It just isnt going to happen.

Its not that we didnt learn from 'Nam, we learned (or at least most people did) its that this is not a war that is designed to be faught with military might
 
Last edited:

9thIDdoc

Gold Member
Joined
Aug 8, 2011
Messages
5,895
Reaction score
1,256
Points
255
Things we should have learned in Vietnam:

Don't fight wars unless you intend to win.
War is not an election. Government's place is to decide if one is required and what is to be accomplished. Then it should shut up and sit down. Wars are fought by soldiers; not politicians.
 

High_Gravity

Belligerent Drunk
Joined
Nov 19, 2010
Messages
40,159
Reaction score
7,084
Points
260
Location
Richmond VA
Things we should have learned in Vietnam:

Don't fight wars unless you intend to win.
War is not an election. Government's place is to decide if one is required and what is to be accomplished. Then it should shut up and sit down. Wars are fought by soldiers; not politicians.
Fuckin A.:clap2:
 

Dragon

Senior Member
Joined
Sep 16, 2011
Messages
5,481
Reaction score
578
Points
48
Things we should have learned in Vietnam:

Don't fight wars unless you intend to win.
War is not an election. Government's place is to decide if one is required and what is to be accomplished. Then it should shut up and sit down. Wars are fought by soldiers; not politicians.
I'd amend the first point slightly: Don't fight wars unless the cost of winning is worth what you would gain by victory, or less than what you would lose by losing.

The reason we lost in Vietnam is because we had nothing of importance to gain there that was worth even one casualty. We were fighting for nothing, while the enemy fought for everything: their national identity, their independence.

The tragedy is that it took us so many years, deaths, and dollars before we figured out that the game wasn't worth the candle.
 

namvet

Gold Member
Joined
May 20, 2008
Messages
9,549
Reaction score
1,650
Points
245
Location
across the pond
add to it in 68 we winning. they were done for. we were just sitting around playing cards and getting our sun tans waiting for the papers to be signed so we could go home. business came to a stand still. then LBJ sent over his infamous bombing halt order. so we backed off. they rearmed and re supplied. he was under pressure from the media and protesters to end it. instead he just prolonged it.
 

The Gadfly

Senior Member
Joined
Feb 7, 2011
Messages
2,190
Reaction score
613
Points
48
Things we should have learned in Vietnam:

Don't fight wars unless you intend to win.
War is not an election. Government's place is to decide if one is required and what is to be accomplished. Then it should shut up and sit down. Wars are fought by soldiers; not politicians.
I'd amend the first point slightly: Don't fight wars unless the cost of winning is worth what you would gain by victory, or less than what you would lose by losing.

The reason we lost in Vietnam is because we had nothing of importance to gain there that was worth even one casualty. We were fighting for nothing, while the enemy fought for everything: their national identity, their independence.

The tragedy is that it took us so many years, deaths, and dollars before we figured out that the game wasn't worth the candle.
Bullshit. We won the war on the battlefield, in spite of the incompetence of our civilian commanders in Washington. That victory was stolen from us by "journalists" more interested in getting a Pulitzer, or getting the ratings, then telling the truth, feckless politicians who abandoned us, and sold out our allies, and a civilian population at home that largely bout into their lies. The real irony is that us Vietnam vets, who the Left still calls "war criminals", did and still do have more real compassion and caring for the Vietnamese civilians who trusted us to protest them, than the American Left does. I have not seen a liberal here yet, who gives a rat's rear end how many of those Vietnamese were tortured and executed in communist "re-education camps"; since America trades with the DRV now, no one cares about their sorry human rights record-well, certainly not the liberals, who still have a love affair with Ho Chi Minh and his commies, just like they did forty years ago. We did not dishonor our country; the Left did, by insisting America break her commitments to people who trusted us. And still, you call US "criminals"?
 
OP
whitehall

whitehall

Diamond Member
Joined
Dec 28, 2010
Messages
46,862
Reaction score
10,671
Points
2,040
Location
Western Va.
In the greatest Country in the world the Military is run by civilians and that's the way it should be. Whatever LBJ was thinking the point is that his administration set the rules for VietNam and the rules were guaranteed to fail. George Bush might have been forced to set the rules so that the greatest Military on the face of the earth is forced to fight according to the enemy or he might have caved in to democrats who demanded that the Military doesn't succeed. At any rate it seems that the US Military in Afghanistan might as well be in trenches like we were under the Wilson administration in WW1. Imagine NATO planes strafing and bombing Libya to support the rebels (now called "fighters" by the A.P.) sweeping to victory while American Troops are crawling along in Afghanistan. It's like living in an alternate universe.
 

9thIDdoc

Gold Member
Joined
Aug 8, 2011
Messages
5,895
Reaction score
1,256
Points
255
I'd amend the first point slightly: Don't fight wars unless the cost of winning is worth what you would gain by victory, or less than what you would lose by losing.

Right. And, of course, I'm sure you'll find total agreement on what "cost","gain","loss", and "victory" mean. Once everybody is on the same page all that is necessary is an infalliable way to predict the future. Accountants are best in banks; not battlefields. Give them too much importance and you can end up (literally) with M-16's that go "click!" instead "bang!". Soldiers would prefer not to bring a club to a gun fight. Just picky I guess.

The reason we lost in Vietnam is because we had nothing of importance to gain there that was worth even one casualty. We were fighting for nothing, while the enemy fought for everything:

You have an absolute right to that opinion. And I have a right to the opinion that that is a base lie and a very nasty insult. I suspect that voicing that opnion in some circumstances could result in serious bodily harm.

...their national identity, their independence.

...and their "right" to invade and occupy their sourthern neighbor. Has it ever occured to you that S. Vietnam had as much right to want those things as N.Vietnam? Or that their fighting for them is what the war was about?

The tragedy is that it took us so many years, deaths, and dollars before we figured out that the game wasn't worth the candle.

Really? Or is the tragedy that you hold that opinion?
 
OP
whitehall

whitehall

Diamond Member
Joined
Dec 28, 2010
Messages
46,862
Reaction score
10,671
Points
2,040
Location
Western Va.
Frankly I'm surprised at alleged Vets opinion of warfare as if the VietNam era invented war. All this bull shit about what you gain from victory vs yada yada is a bunch of psychobabble crap. Nobody measures cost and gain and loss if you are doing the right thing. The problem in Vietnam was that the left wing media turned on the administration after about five years and left wing sissies who faced the draft were supported by the media as they rioted in the streets. By the time Nixon was elected the democrat party saw a way out of the mess by blaming it all on Tricky Dick.
 

Most reactions - Past 7 days

Forum List

Top