God does exist. Itelligent design in the Universe is prof of God.

Hawking contends that because the law of gravity exists that the universe can create itself from nothing. The professor points out that the law of gravity is not nothing. So some thing (which is in reality no thing) existed before space and time were created.

So... if we assume that everything that occurred since the creation of space and time (including the creation of space and time) is just an accidental coincidence of the properties of matter, the logical conclusion is that matter and energy are just doing what matter and energy do which makes sense. The problem is that for matter and energy to do what matter and energy do, there has to be rules in place for matter and energy to obey. The formation of space and time followed rules. Specifically the law of conservation and quantum mechanics. These laws existed before space and time and defined the potential of everything which was possible. These laws are no thing. So we literally have an example of no thing existing before the material world. The creation of space and time from nothing is literally correct. Space and time were created from nothing by no thing. God is no thing. No thing created space and time.

Your explanation on the theory of everything is amusing.
But do be aware that it can only serve to convince yourself.

Same question to you, is the Christian bible supposed to be understood as the literal word of the god?

I think it possibly could have been 100 years ago for most Americans but no later than that.

Literal doesn't include interpretation such as 'the god makes everything possible'.
The word 'literal' has meaning that I'm not going to allow Christians to misinterpret. That much at least will not be a question in any debate in which I take part.

I'm going to be very liberal on all else.
I couldn't be happier to amuse you. You sound very secure in your beliefs. :rolleyes:

The Bible is a collection of books written by many different men over a very long period of time. The men who wrote it came from all different walks of life and had different backgrounds. It was written with several different literary styles. So withing each book and sometimes within each chapter of each book, to gain the proper discernment one would need to identify which literary style was being employed. And as always a proper context of the times is needed for proper discernment.

So, was it meant to be read literal? Not the passages that were written allegorically or poetically or prophetically. But the passages that were historical accounts without allegorical narratives or the legal passages, sure. Do I think it is infallible? No, it was written by fallible men. But if one is reading for intent and not for bias there's a lot of truth and wisdom contained in the books. To me the problem is not the fallible men who wrote the Bible or what they wrote. To me the problem is the fallible men who read the Bible and how they read it. If you are one of those guys who reads it to confirm your bias, we probably won't get along very well as I don't like correcting the errors of people - who don't practice my faith - who think they know my faith better than I know my faith. But if you aren't one of those guys, we'll get along great.

Fine, it's not the literal word of the god and so it's fallible.
And in fact, that makes it meaningless.

The concept of a 'god' outside of christian beliefs in nonsense that isn't to be interpreted as literal is a question I can entertain with an open mind. Try me on anything that comes to mind for you.

From my POV and interest, do you subscribe to the 6000 to 10,000 year old earth or do you subscribe to Darwinian evolution?

Or I suppose, there are other possibilities you can imagine up for the conversation?
Actually it isn't meaningless. How exactly do you think ancient man passed down history, knowledge, information and wisdom 6,000 years ago? They told stories. The first 11 chapters of the Torah records the history that all nations have in common. These allegorical accounts of the history of the world had been passed down from generation to generation orally for thousands of years.

The universe began ~14 billion years ago being created from nothing. The evolution of space and time is not just limited to biology. Scientific evidence tells us that the universe started out as subatomic particles and very quickly formed hydrogen and helium. This is called cosmic evolution. The hydrogen and helium formed stellar structures such as galaxies. This is called stellar evolution. The supernovas of stars created all of the elements and compounds that we see through fusion. This is called chemical evolution. All of these stages or phases had to occur before inanimate matter could make the leap to life. An event we still do not fully understand although the best understanding is that it can only occur in hot, wet conditions with an atmosphere rich in certain chemical compounds. Even with these condition being present we do not know how these chemical compounds could fold themselves in just the correct sequence to create life capable of replicating itself. The amount of information required for life to replicate is staggering. But however life made this leap we know it had to begin from a single celled organism and evolved into evermore increasing complex life forms up to the point that beings that know and create eventually arose which began the evolution of consciousness.
 
Intelligent design became an embarrassment to those who proposed the idea. They made the fatal mistake of trying to use completely wrong pseudo-science against real science.

Their best argument on the bacterial flagellum was completely destroyed when science proved conclusively that it was reducable.

Then instead of abandoning their relgious nonsense they went on to make the same stupid claim on the human eye!

Christianity didn't run from the ID nonsense fast enough. Some are so ignorant that they persiste on having their legs chopped off at the knees!
Good thing I'm not arguing that then. :)

Would you agree that the heart of this debate is whether or not the material world was created by spirit?

AND that if the material world were not created by spirit, then everything which has occurred since the beginning of space and time are products of the material world? That everything which is incorporeal proceeded from the corporeal?

AND that there is no middle ground? That there is no other option? That either the material world was created by spirit or it wasn't? That all other options will simplify to one of these two lowest common denominators which are mutually exclusive?

Would you agree with all of that?
The question of the material world being created by 'spirit' is a question even Hawking wouldn't attempt to answer definitively.

Stop trying to impress others with your commenting on topics you don't understand and on which you don't have the slightest clue!

If you're interested in a debate on the Christian faith then try to come back down to earth. This is boring and useless drivel at the best of times!
I am just trying to find some agreement here. This seems like a pretty simple proposition. Why are you afraid to answer if you agree or not?

All I am asking you is if there are only two options here. Either God created the material world or God didn't, right?
 
The question of the material world being created by 'spirit' is a question even Hawking wouldn't attempt to answer definitively.
He actually did. He said God didn't do it. He said the universe created itself.
 
Stop trying to impress others with your commenting on topics you don't understand and on which you don't have the slightest clue!
Why would I need to impress anyone? Do you need to impress anyone? So if you wouldn't, why would you assume someone else would?
 
Intelligent design became an embarrassment to those who proposed the idea. They made the fatal mistake of trying to use completely wrong pseudo-science against real science.

Their best argument on the bacterial flagellum was completely destroyed when science proved conclusively that it was reducable.

Then instead of abandoning their relgious nonsense they went on to make the same stupid claim on the human eye!

Christianity didn't run from the ID nonsense fast enough. Some are so ignorant that they persiste on having their legs chopped off at the knees!
Good thing I'm not arguing that then. :)

Would you agree that the heart of this debate is whether or not the material world was created by spirit?

AND that if the material world were not created by spirit, then everything which has occurred since the beginning of space and time are products of the material world? That everything which is incorporeal proceeded from the corporeal?

AND that there is no middle ground? That there is no other option? That either the material world was created by spirit or it wasn't? That all other options will simplify to one of these two lowest common denominators which are mutually exclusive?

Would you agree with all of that?
The question of the material world being created by 'spirit' is a question even Hawking wouldn't attempt to answer definitively.

Stop trying to impress others with your commenting on topics you don't understand and on which you don't have the slightest clue!

If you're interested in a debate on the Christian faith then try to come back down to earth. This is boring and useless drivel at the best of times!
I am just trying to find some agreement here. This seems like a pretty simple proposition. Why are you afraid to answer if you agree or not?

All I am asking you is if there are only two options here. Either God created the material world or God didn't, right?
I have no idea whether the material world was created by a 'spirit', and neither do you. If you're not prepared to debate 'something' then I'll make a proposal for one:

The Christian bible, in all it's assorted manifestations is ridiculous bullshit that can't even be interpreted as literal.

It's nothing but a pile of interpretations on it's meaning that vary so widely that it runs up against various interpretations on which no two demoninations can find agreement.

If you're attempting to take a debate to a higher level, save the bullshit nonsense that even you can't begin to understand.

Where were we? The 6000 year old earth, or Darwinian evolution?

Or would any of you posers like to get into the ID thing with me?
 
Intelligent design became an embarrassment to those who proposed the idea. They made the fatal mistake of trying to use completely wrong pseudo-science against real science.

Their best argument on the bacterial flagellum was completely destroyed when science proved conclusively that it was reducable.

Then instead of abandoning their relgious nonsense they went on to make the same stupid claim on the human eye!

Christianity didn't run from the ID nonsense fast enough. Some are so ignorant that they persiste on having their legs chopped off at the knees!
Good thing I'm not arguing that then. :)

Would you agree that the heart of this debate is whether or not the material world was created by spirit?

AND that if the material world were not created by spirit, then everything which has occurred since the beginning of space and time are products of the material world? That everything which is incorporeal proceeded from the corporeal?

AND that there is no middle ground? That there is no other option? That either the material world was created by spirit or it wasn't? That all other options will simplify to one of these two lowest common denominators which are mutually exclusive?

Would you agree with all of that?
The question of the material world being created by 'spirit' is a question even Hawking wouldn't attempt to answer definitively.

Stop trying to impress others with your commenting on topics you don't understand and on which you don't have the slightest clue!

If you're interested in a debate on the Christian faith then try to come back down to earth. This is boring and useless drivel at the best of times!
I am just trying to find some agreement here. This seems like a pretty simple proposition. Why are you afraid to answer if you agree or not?

All I am asking you is if there are only two options here. Either God created the material world or God didn't, right?
I have no idea whether the material world was created by a 'spirit', and neither do you. If you're not prepared to debate 'something' then I'll make a proposal for one:

The Christian bible, in all it's assorted manifestations is ridiculous bullshit that can't even be interpreted as literal.

It's nothing but a pile of interpretations on it's meaning that vary so widely that it runs up against various interpretations on which no two demoninations can find agreement.

If you're attempting to take a debate to a higher level, save the bullshit nonsense that even you can't begin to understand.

Where were we? The 6000 year old earth, or Darwinian evolution?

Or would any of you posers like to get into the ID thing with me?
I'm not asking you if you to answer the question. I am asking you if there are only two possible answers.

So are there more than two answers that God created the material world or the material world created itself? I can't think of any others, can you?
 
If you're interested in a debate on the Christian faith then try to come back down to earth. This is boring and useless drivel at the best of times!
I thought that was what I was doing. :)
You don't want a debate, you want to try to sell your superstitious nonsense to an atheist. Do you get points for gaining a convert?
Do you get deducted points for hardening the resolve of normal people?

Your last warning to stop wasting my time beezlebub.
 
Intelligent design became an embarrassment to those who proposed the idea. They made the fatal mistake of trying to use completely wrong pseudo-science against real science.

Their best argument on the bacterial flagellum was completely destroyed when science proved conclusively that it was reducable.

Then instead of abandoning their relgious nonsense they went on to make the same stupid claim on the human eye!

Christianity didn't run from the ID nonsense fast enough. Some are so ignorant that they persiste on having their legs chopped off at the knees!
Good thing I'm not arguing that then. :)

Would you agree that the heart of this debate is whether or not the material world was created by spirit?

AND that if the material world were not created by spirit, then everything which has occurred since the beginning of space and time are products of the material world? That everything which is incorporeal proceeded from the corporeal?

AND that there is no middle ground? That there is no other option? That either the material world was created by spirit or it wasn't? That all other options will simplify to one of these two lowest common denominators which are mutually exclusive?

Would you agree with all of that?
The question of the material world being created by 'spirit' is a question even Hawking wouldn't attempt to answer definitively.

Stop trying to impress others with your commenting on topics you don't understand and on which you don't have the slightest clue!

If you're interested in a debate on the Christian faith then try to come back down to earth. This is boring and useless drivel at the best of times!
I am just trying to find some agreement here. This seems like a pretty simple proposition. Why are you afraid to answer if you agree or not?

All I am asking you is if there are only two options here. Either God created the material world or God didn't, right?
I have no idea whether the material world was created by a 'spirit', and neither do you. If you're not prepared to debate 'something' then I'll make a proposal for one:

The Christian bible, in all it's assorted manifestations is ridiculous bullshit that can't even be interpreted as literal.

It's nothing but a pile of interpretations on it's meaning that vary so widely that it runs up against various interpretations on which no two demoninations can find agreement.

If you're attempting to take a debate to a higher level, save the bullshit nonsense that even you can't begin to understand.

Where were we? The 6000 year old earth, or Darwinian evolution?

Or would any of you posers like to get into the ID thing with me?

Bronze Age answers for Bronze Age people.. Every culture has a creation myth and they are all very different.
 
Bronze Age answers for Bronze Age people.. Every culture has a creation myth and they are all very different.
Their biggest problem in my opinion is that their superstitious beliefs become so outdated and they're faced with even more mockery if they try to run some new ones.

Case in point is the Mormons who tryied something in tune with the times and ended up making it all much worse!
 
Hawking contends that because the law of gravity exists that the universe can create itself from nothing. The professor points out that the law of gravity is not nothing. So some thing (which is in reality no thing) existed before space and time were created.

So... if we assume that everything that occurred since the creation of space and time (including the creation of space and time) is just an accidental coincidence of the properties of matter, the logical conclusion is that matter and energy are just doing what matter and energy do which makes sense. The problem is that for matter and energy to do what matter and energy do, there has to be rules in place for matter and energy to obey. The formation of space and time followed rules. Specifically the law of conservation and quantum mechanics. These laws existed before space and time and defined the potential of everything which was possible. These laws are no thing. So we literally have an example of no thing existing before the material world. The creation of space and time from nothing is literally correct. Space and time were created from nothing by no thing. God is no thing. No thing created space and time.

Your explanation on the theory of everything is amusing.
But do be aware that it can only serve to convince yourself.

Same question to you, is the Christian bible supposed to be understood as the literal word of the god?

I think it possibly could have been 100 years ago for most Americans but no later than that.

Literal doesn't include interpretation such as 'the god makes everything possible'.
The word 'literal' has meaning that I'm not going to allow Christians to misinterpret. That much at least will not be a question in any debate in which I take part.

I'm going to be very liberal on all else.
I couldn't be happier to amuse you. You sound very secure in your beliefs. :rolleyes:

The Bible is a collection of books written by many different men over a very long period of time. The men who wrote it came from all different walks of life and had different backgrounds. It was written with several different literary styles. So withing each book and sometimes within each chapter of each book, to gain the proper discernment one would need to identify which literary style was being employed. And as always a proper context of the times is needed for proper discernment.

So, was it meant to be read literal? Not the passages that were written allegorically or poetically or prophetically. But the passages that were historical accounts without allegorical narratives or the legal passages, sure. Do I think it is infallible? No, it was written by fallible men. But if one is reading for intent and not for bias there's a lot of truth and wisdom contained in the books. To me the problem is not the fallible men who wrote the Bible or what they wrote. To me the problem is the fallible men who read the Bible and how they read it. If you are one of those guys who reads it to confirm your bias, we probably won't get along very well as I don't like correcting the errors of people - who don't practice my faith - who think they know my faith better than I know my faith. But if you aren't one of those guys, we'll get along great.

Fine, it's not the literal word of the god and so it's fallible.
And in fact, that makes it meaningless.

The concept of a 'god' outside of christian beliefs in nonsense that isn't to be interpreted as literal is a question I can entertain with an open mind. Try me on anything that comes to mind for you.

From my POV and interest, do you subscribe to the 6000 to 10,000 year old earth or do you subscribe to Darwinian evolution?

Or I suppose, there are other possibilities you can imagine up for the conversation?
Actually it isn't meaningless. How exactly do you think ancient man passed down history, knowledge, information and wisdom 6,000 years ago? They told stories. The first 11 chapters of the Torah records the history that all nations have in common. These allegorical accounts of the history of the world had been passed down from generation to generation orally for thousands of years.

The universe began ~14 billion years ago being created from nothing. The evolution of space and time is not just limited to biology. Scientific evidence tells us that the universe started out as subatomic particles and very quickly formed hydrogen and helium. This is called cosmic evolution. The hydrogen and helium formed stellar structures such as galaxies. This is called stellar evolution. The supernovas of stars created all of the elements and compounds that we see through fusion. This is called chemical evolution. All of these stages or phases had to occur before inanimate matter could make the leap to life. An event we still do not fully understand although the best understanding is that it can only occur in hot, wet conditions with an atmosphere rich in certain chemical compounds. Even with these condition being present we do not know how these chemical compounds could fold themselves in just the correct sequence to create life capable of replicating itself. The amount of information required for life to replicate is staggering. But however life made this leap we know it had to begin from a single celled organism and evolved into evermore increasing complex life forms up to the point that beings that know and create eventually arose which began the evolution of consciousness.

Every culture has a creation myth.
 
Every culture has a creation myth.
Absolutely. Just as every culture had a myth to explain diseases, and storms, and death, and coincidences, etc. The creation myths will always persist because they are generally shallow and useless and, as such, don't really interfere with our knowledge. They will just be modified. Anyone can look at the universe and say, "Gods did that!" This adds no useful information whatsoever and explains nothing, but it also can never be ruled out.
 
I can summarize my opinion on religion pretty quickly for you. The Christian bible(s) are full of impossibilities and nonsense if interpreted literally. We can continue to expand on that fact if 'literal' is your opinion.

You atheists simply cannot discuss the scientific backing of Nature's God, implicit everywhere without bringing up the Bible.

Leave the Bible out of the discussion and explain everything from nothing.

"Believers have to explain evil. Atheists have to explain everything else." - Some Famous Rabbi (paraphrased)

"In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth." - Genesis 1:1

It took mankind 2,000 years to scientifically validate this incredible fact. Two thousand years.
Just the first sentence in the first book.
 
I can summarize my opinion on religion pretty quickly for you. The Christian bible(s) are full of impossibilities and nonsense if interpreted literally. We can continue to expand on that fact if 'literal' is your opinion.

You atheists simply cannot discuss the scientific backing of Nature's God, implicit everywhere without bringing up the Bible.

Leave the Bible out of the discussion and explain everything from nothing.

"Believers have to explain evil. Atheists have to explain everything else." - Some Famous Rabbi (paraphrased)

"In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth." - Genesis 1:1

It took mankind 2,000 years to scientifically validate this incredible fact. Two thousand years.
Just the first sentence in the first book.

Every culture has a creation myth.
 
If you're interested in a debate on the Christian faith then try to come back down to earth. This is boring and useless drivel at the best of times!
I thought that was what I was doing. :)
You don't want a debate, you want to try to sell your superstitious nonsense to an atheist. Do you get points for gaining a convert?
Do you get deducted points for hardening the resolve of normal people?

Your last warning to stop wasting my time beezlebub.
Dude, you can't even answer an innocent, simple question which has a self evident answer. I don't think you should be questioning anyone's motives here.
 
I can summarize my opinion on religion pretty quickly for you. The Christian bible(s) are full of impossibilities and nonsense if interpreted literally. We can continue to expand on that fact if 'literal' is your opinion.

You atheists simply cannot discuss the scientific backing of Nature's God, implicit everywhere without bringing up the Bible.

Leave the Bible out of the discussion and explain everything from nothing.

"Believers have to explain evil. Atheists have to explain everything else." - Some Famous Rabbi (paraphrased)

"In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth." - Genesis 1:1

It took mankind 2,000 years to scientifically validate this incredible fact. Two thousand years.
Just the first sentence in the first book.
They are surprisingly ignorant of science.
 

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