God does exist. Itelligent design in the Universe is prof of God.

[Blues Man]

what happens when the laws of nature break down as they do in black holes?

That's not technically correct. The mathematics break down.

A distinction without a difference

I disagree. The laws of nature don't break down. Our understanding of the laws of nature is limited and breaks down. The math does not exist to properly model what happens at the singularity because our understanding of the physics is incomplete when the size of the universe is infinitesimally small.

So you said thing like math are discovered so that mathematics must exist outside the human brain now you say that math to describe what happens in black holes doesn't exist.

So which is it?

OR

Maybe the minds of human beings are incapable of the intellectual processes needed to understand what happens in the instances where math fails.

It is neither. Our understanding of the physics is limited. Because our understanding of the physics is incomplete, the equations - or math - is limited. Therefore, the equations - or math - do not presently exist to describe what happens when the field equations yield infinite densities.

The math is not failing. The math is showing the limitation or boundary of our understanding of the physics.

So now you say we have to create the math that is needed to understand these things. But earlier you said mathematics wasn't created by humans but was "discovered" because it already existed before humans did.

So which is it?

Neither because you keep misstating what I write. Try using my exact quote to make your points and you will discover your error.

You said math was discovered not created by humans.

That means mathematics exist apart from humans and the human brain.

Then you say that no math exists to describe what happens in black holes but you imply that it must exist because humans did not create mathematics but rather discovered it.

So how can you say that the math to describe black holes doesn't exist?

It does not imply that at all. The physics have not been discovered that describe what happens when Friedmann's solution to Einstein's field equations yield infinite densities. Once the physics are discovered it can be modeled using mathematical equations.

Of course it does

Either man invented the concepts of mathematics or man didn't.

You said man discovered them that means that mathematics exist whether or not humans exist.

You are all over the map. Man discovered the concepts of math. Math is not unique to man. Any intelligent being can discover the concepts of math. Mathematical truths exist independent of any creature. Mathematical truths exist in and of themselves.

Just as man did not invent that water consists of two hydrogen atoms and one oxygen atom. Man discovered that water consists of two hydrogen atoms and one oxygen atom.

So then how can you say the math to describe black holes doesn't exist?

Again... not that they don't exist but that the present equations yield infinite densities at it's boundary. You keep misstating that. But to answer your question the math hasn't been discovered yet because the physics of the boundary condition has not been discovered yet.

So now you are saying that the math does exist?

Make up your mind.

If the math does exist then we must be incapable of understanding it.

The math that describes what happens at the boundary of black holes or the beginning of the universe has not been discovered yet because the physics for those events has not been discovered yet.

So now you are saying that those things exist out there in the ether somewhere and we will eventually stumble upon them.

That is not the same thing as saying they do not exist.

See the 2 min 35 sec mark.

So he's saying that the math exists you are saying it doesn't exist.

And that is just one man's opinion anyway.

We are both saying that mathematical and scientific truths are discovered. Just like logic is discovered. No one invented that if A=B and B=C then A must equal C. Just like no one invented A^2 + B^2 = C^2 for right triangles. These truths were discovered.

But please do keep arguing against it. I can do this all day.

So you're changing your tune again.

Did you not say the math does not exist?

If it does not exist it cannot be discovered can it?

Exact right triangles are a man made construct. So the math describing them is a man made construct

There is no reason to think the mathematics of an alien intelligence will be the same as ours.

Never changed my tune. You take things out of context cause you have nothing else.

I love how hard you are trying to prove this.

Einstein did not invent E=mc^2. He discovered it.

I quoted you verbatim.

And you still deny you said it

Math is a human invention as a way to represent what we see.

You are confusing math and what math was invented to describe.

There is nothing to prove that the mathematics of an alien intelligence will be the same as ours

Man discovered math. Man did not invent math. Math is universal. Same for logic, science, music, etc.

you are confusing math with the things it was invented to describe.

 

[Taz]

what happens when the laws of nature break down as they do in black holes?

That's not technically correct. The mathematics break down.

A distinction without a difference

I disagree. The laws of nature don't break down. Our understanding of the laws of nature is limited and breaks down. The math does not exist to properly model what happens at the singularity because our understanding of the physics is incomplete when the size of the universe is infinitesimally small.

So you said thing like math are discovered so that mathematics must exist outside the human brain now you say that math to describe what happens in black holes doesn't exist.

So which is it?

OR

Maybe the minds of human beings are incapable of the intellectual processes needed to understand what happens in the instances where math fails.

It is neither. Our understanding of the physics is limited. Because our understanding of the physics is incomplete, the equations - or math - is limited. Therefore, the equations - or math - do not presently exist to describe what happens when the field equations yield infinite densities.

The math is not failing. The math is showing the limitation or boundary of our understanding of the physics.

So now you say we have to create the math that is needed to understand these things. But earlier you said mathematics wasn't created by humans but was "discovered" because it already existed before humans did.

So which is it?

Neither because you keep misstating what I write. Try using my exact quote to make your points and you will discover your error.

You said math was discovered not created by humans.

That means mathematics exist apart from humans and the human brain.

Then you say that no math exists to describe what happens in black holes but you imply that it must exist because humans did not create mathematics but rather discovered it.

So how can you say that the math to describe black holes doesn't exist?

It does not imply that at all. The physics have not been discovered that describe what happens when Friedmann's solution to Einstein's field equations yield infinite densities. Once the physics are discovered it can be modeled using mathematical equations.

Of course it does

Either man invented the concepts of mathematics or man didn't.

You said man discovered them that means that mathematics exist whether or not humans exist.

You are all over the map. Man discovered the concepts of math. Math is not unique to man. Any intelligent being can discover the concepts of math. Mathematical truths exist independent of any creature. Mathematical truths exist in and of themselves.

Just as man did not invent that water consists of two hydrogen atoms and one oxygen atom. Man discovered that water consists of two hydrogen atoms and one oxygen atom.

So then how can you say the math to describe black holes doesn't exist?

Again... not that they don't exist but that the present equations yield infinite densities at it's boundary. You keep misstating that. But to answer your question the math hasn't been discovered yet because the physics of the boundary condition has not been discovered yet.

So now you are saying that the math does exist?

Make up your mind.

If the math does exist then we must be incapable of understanding it.

The math that describes what happens at the boundary of black holes or the beginning of the universe has not been discovered yet because the physics for those events has not been discovered yet.

So now you are saying that those things exist out there in the ether somewhere and we will eventually stumble upon them.

That is not the same thing as saying they do not exist.

See the 2 min 35 sec mark.

So he's saying that the math exists you are saying it doesn't exist.

And that is just one man's opinion anyway.

We are both saying that mathematical and scientific truths are discovered. Just like logic is discovered. No one invented that if A=B and B=C then A must equal C. Just like no one invented A^2 + B^2 = C^2 for right triangles. These truths were discovered.

But please do keep arguing against it. I can do this all day.

Logic can be subjective, like the guys who thought it was logical to crash 747s into buildings, or put explosives in their underwear.

Only you would believe that logic is subjective, taz, only you.

Muslims thought that 9/11 was logical. You lose.

That's some impressive display of logic on your part, taz.

You are just as logical as they were.

That's why logic can be subjective. You're for sure not the final arbiter of logic, that would be totally against logic.

Taz, Taz, Taz.... people are subjective. Logic is objective. You are confusing people's subjectivity for logic.

Logic can be both, as in 2+2=4, that's objective logic. Subjective logic is like someone who thinks that it's logical that they know everything. Like you.

 

[ding]

what happens when the laws of nature break down as they do in black holes?

That's not technically correct. The mathematics break down.

A distinction without a difference

I disagree. The laws of nature don't break down. Our understanding of the laws of nature is limited and breaks down. The math does not exist to properly model what happens at the singularity because our understanding of the physics is incomplete when the size of the universe is infinitesimally small.

So you said thing like math are discovered so that mathematics must exist outside the human brain now you say that math to describe what happens in black holes doesn't exist.

So which is it?

OR

Maybe the minds of human beings are incapable of the intellectual processes needed to understand what happens in the instances where math fails.

It is neither. Our understanding of the physics is limited. Because our understanding of the physics is incomplete, the equations - or math - is limited. Therefore, the equations - or math - do not presently exist to describe what happens when the field equations yield infinite densities.

The math is not failing. The math is showing the limitation or boundary of our understanding of the physics.

So now you say we have to create the math that is needed to understand these things. But earlier you said mathematics wasn't created by humans but was "discovered" because it already existed before humans did.

So which is it?

Neither because you keep misstating what I write. Try using my exact quote to make your points and you will discover your error.

You said math was discovered not created by humans.

That means mathematics exist apart from humans and the human brain.

Then you say that no math exists to describe what happens in black holes but you imply that it must exist because humans did not create mathematics but rather discovered it.

So how can you say that the math to describe black holes doesn't exist?

It does not imply that at all. The physics have not been discovered that describe what happens when Friedmann's solution to Einstein's field equations yield infinite densities. Once the physics are discovered it can be modeled using mathematical equations.

Of course it does

Either man invented the concepts of mathematics or man didn't.

You said man discovered them that means that mathematics exist whether or not humans exist.

You are all over the map. Man discovered the concepts of math. Math is not unique to man. Any intelligent being can discover the concepts of math. Mathematical truths exist independent of any creature. Mathematical truths exist in and of themselves.

Just as man did not invent that water consists of two hydrogen atoms and one oxygen atom. Man discovered that water consists of two hydrogen atoms and one oxygen atom.

So then how can you say the math to describe black holes doesn't exist?

Again... not that they don't exist but that the present equations yield infinite densities at it's boundary. You keep misstating that. But to answer your question the math hasn't been discovered yet because the physics of the boundary condition has not been discovered yet.

So now you are saying that the math does exist?

Make up your mind.

If the math does exist then we must be incapable of understanding it.

The math that describes what happens at the boundary of black holes or the beginning of the universe has not been discovered yet because the physics for those events has not been discovered yet.

So now you are saying that those things exist out there in the ether somewhere and we will eventually stumble upon them.

That is not the same thing as saying they do not exist.

See the 2 min 35 sec mark.

So he's saying that the math exists you are saying it doesn't exist.

And that is just one man's opinion anyway.

We are both saying that mathematical and scientific truths are discovered. Just like logic is discovered. No one invented that if A=B and B=C then A must equal C. Just like no one invented A^2 + B^2 = C^2 for right triangles. These truths were discovered.

But please do keep arguing against it. I can do this all day.

Logic can be subjective, like the guys who thought it was logical to crash 747s into buildings, or put explosives in their underwear.

Only you would believe that logic is subjective, taz, only you.

Muslims thought that 9/11 was logical. You lose.

That's some impressive display of logic on your part, taz.

You are just as logical as they were.

That's why logic can be subjective. You're for sure not the final arbiter of logic, that would be totally against logic.

Taz, Taz, Taz.... people are subjective. Logic is objective. You are confusing people's subjectivity for logic.

Logic can be both, as in 2+2=4, that's objective logic. Subjective logic is like someone who thinks that it's logical that they know everything. Like you.

That's a silly use of logic on your part and shows your subjectivity. I have never claimed to know everything; far from it as I will gladly admit to my ignorance on many things. What I do claim is that logic cannot be anything people want it to be. That logic is objective. And the only way logic can be subjective is from the misapplication of logic by subjective humans. Which is what you have used for every one of your examples.

 

[Taz]

what happens when the laws of nature break down as they do in black holes?

That's not technically correct. The mathematics break down.

A distinction without a difference

I disagree. The laws of nature don't break down. Our understanding of the laws of nature is limited and breaks down. The math does not exist to properly model what happens at the singularity because our understanding of the physics is incomplete when the size of the universe is infinitesimally small.

So you said thing like math are discovered so that mathematics must exist outside the human brain now you say that math to describe what happens in black holes doesn't exist.

So which is it?

OR

Maybe the minds of human beings are incapable of the intellectual processes needed to understand what happens in the instances where math fails.

It is neither. Our understanding of the physics is limited. Because our understanding of the physics is incomplete, the equations - or math - is limited. Therefore, the equations - or math - do not presently exist to describe what happens when the field equations yield infinite densities.

The math is not failing. The math is showing the limitation or boundary of our understanding of the physics.

So now you say we have to create the math that is needed to understand these things. But earlier you said mathematics wasn't created by humans but was "discovered" because it already existed before humans did.

So which is it?

Neither because you keep misstating what I write. Try using my exact quote to make your points and you will discover your error.

You said math was discovered not created by humans.

That means mathematics exist apart from humans and the human brain.

Then you say that no math exists to describe what happens in black holes but you imply that it must exist because humans did not create mathematics but rather discovered it.

So how can you say that the math to describe black holes doesn't exist?

It does not imply that at all. The physics have not been discovered that describe what happens when Friedmann's solution to Einstein's field equations yield infinite densities. Once the physics are discovered it can be modeled using mathematical equations.

Of course it does

Either man invented the concepts of mathematics or man didn't.

You said man discovered them that means that mathematics exist whether or not humans exist.

You are all over the map. Man discovered the concepts of math. Math is not unique to man. Any intelligent being can discover the concepts of math. Mathematical truths exist independent of any creature. Mathematical truths exist in and of themselves.

Just as man did not invent that water consists of two hydrogen atoms and one oxygen atom. Man discovered that water consists of two hydrogen atoms and one oxygen atom.

So then how can you say the math to describe black holes doesn't exist?

Again... not that they don't exist but that the present equations yield infinite densities at it's boundary. You keep misstating that. But to answer your question the math hasn't been discovered yet because the physics of the boundary condition has not been discovered yet.

So now you are saying that the math does exist?

Make up your mind.

If the math does exist then we must be incapable of understanding it.

The math that describes what happens at the boundary of black holes or the beginning of the universe has not been discovered yet because the physics for those events has not been discovered yet.

So now you are saying that those things exist out there in the ether somewhere and we will eventually stumble upon them.

That is not the same thing as saying they do not exist.

See the 2 min 35 sec mark.

So he's saying that the math exists you are saying it doesn't exist.

And that is just one man's opinion anyway.

We are both saying that mathematical and scientific truths are discovered. Just like logic is discovered. No one invented that if A=B and B=C then A must equal C. Just like no one invented A^2 + B^2 = C^2 for right triangles. These truths were discovered.

But please do keep arguing against it. I can do this all day.

Logic can be subjective, like the guys who thought it was logical to crash 747s into buildings, or put explosives in their underwear.

Only you would believe that logic is subjective, taz, only you.

Muslims thought that 9/11 was logical. You lose.

That's some impressive display of logic on your part, taz.

You are just as logical as they were.

That's why logic can be subjective. You're for sure not the final arbiter of logic, that would be totally against logic.

Taz, Taz, Taz.... people are subjective. Logic is objective. You are confusing people's subjectivity for logic.

Logic can be both, as in 2+2=4, that's objective logic. Subjective logic is like someone who thinks that it's logical that they know everything. Like you.

That's a silly use of logic on your part and shows your subjectivity. I have never claimed to know everything; far from it as I will gladly admit to my ignorance on many things. What I do claim is that logic cannot be anything people want it to be. That logic is objective. And the only way logic can be subjective is from the misapplication of logic by subjective humans. Which is what you have used for every one of your examples.

Misapplication according to you. Not to them. So who gets to choose?

 

[ding]

what happens when the laws of nature break down as they do in black holes?

That's not technically correct. The mathematics break down.

A distinction without a difference

I disagree. The laws of nature don't break down. Our understanding of the laws of nature is limited and breaks down. The math does not exist to properly model what happens at the singularity because our understanding of the physics is incomplete when the size of the universe is infinitesimally small.

So you said thing like math are discovered so that mathematics must exist outside the human brain now you say that math to describe what happens in black holes doesn't exist.

So which is it?

OR

Maybe the minds of human beings are incapable of the intellectual processes needed to understand what happens in the instances where math fails.

It is neither. Our understanding of the physics is limited. Because our understanding of the physics is incomplete, the equations - or math - is limited. Therefore, the equations - or math - do not presently exist to describe what happens when the field equations yield infinite densities.

The math is not failing. The math is showing the limitation or boundary of our understanding of the physics.

So now you say we have to create the math that is needed to understand these things. But earlier you said mathematics wasn't created by humans but was "discovered" because it already existed before humans did.

So which is it?

Neither because you keep misstating what I write. Try using my exact quote to make your points and you will discover your error.

You said math was discovered not created by humans.

That means mathematics exist apart from humans and the human brain.

Then you say that no math exists to describe what happens in black holes but you imply that it must exist because humans did not create mathematics but rather discovered it.

So how can you say that the math to describe black holes doesn't exist?

It does not imply that at all. The physics have not been discovered that describe what happens when Friedmann's solution to Einstein's field equations yield infinite densities. Once the physics are discovered it can be modeled using mathematical equations.

Of course it does

Either man invented the concepts of mathematics or man didn't.

You said man discovered them that means that mathematics exist whether or not humans exist.

You are all over the map. Man discovered the concepts of math. Math is not unique to man. Any intelligent being can discover the concepts of math. Mathematical truths exist independent of any creature. Mathematical truths exist in and of themselves.

Just as man did not invent that water consists of two hydrogen atoms and one oxygen atom. Man discovered that water consists of two hydrogen atoms and one oxygen atom.

So then how can you say the math to describe black holes doesn't exist?

Again... not that they don't exist but that the present equations yield infinite densities at it's boundary. You keep misstating that. But to answer your question the math hasn't been discovered yet because the physics of the boundary condition has not been discovered yet.

So now you are saying that the math does exist?

Make up your mind.

If the math does exist then we must be incapable of understanding it.

The math that describes what happens at the boundary of black holes or the beginning of the universe has not been discovered yet because the physics for those events has not been discovered yet.

So now you are saying that those things exist out there in the ether somewhere and we will eventually stumble upon them.

That is not the same thing as saying they do not exist.

See the 2 min 35 sec mark.

So he's saying that the math exists you are saying it doesn't exist.

And that is just one man's opinion anyway.

We are both saying that mathematical and scientific truths are discovered. Just like logic is discovered. No one invented that if A=B and B=C then A must equal C. Just like no one invented A^2 + B^2 = C^2 for right triangles. These truths were discovered.

But please do keep arguing against it. I can do this all day.

So you're changing your tune again.

Did you not say the math does not exist?

If it does not exist it cannot be discovered can it?

Exact right triangles are a man made construct. So the math describing them is a man made construct

There is no reason to think the mathematics of an alien intelligence will be the same as ours.

Never changed my tune. You take things out of context cause you have nothing else.

I love how hard you are trying to prove this.

Einstein did not invent E=mc^2. He discovered it.

I quoted you verbatim.

And you still deny you said it

Math is a human invention as a way to represent what we see.

You are confusing math and what math was invented to describe.

There is nothing to prove that the mathematics of an alien intelligence will be the same as ours

Man discovered math. Man did not invent math. Math is universal. Same for logic, science, music, etc.

you are confusing math with the things it was invented to describe.

No. I'm not. E=mc^2 wasn't invented. It was discovered. Einstein could not make it be anything he wanted it to be like Apple could with its iPod. So E=mc^2 isn't an invention, it is a mathematical reality that describes a physical phenomenon. The physical phenomenon and the math that describes it were discovered.

 

[ding]

what happens when the laws of nature break down as they do in black holes?

That's not technically correct. The mathematics break down.

A distinction without a difference

I disagree. The laws of nature don't break down. Our understanding of the laws of nature is limited and breaks down. The math does not exist to properly model what happens at the singularity because our understanding of the physics is incomplete when the size of the universe is infinitesimally small.

So you said thing like math are discovered so that mathematics must exist outside the human brain now you say that math to describe what happens in black holes doesn't exist.

So which is it?

OR

Maybe the minds of human beings are incapable of the intellectual processes needed to understand what happens in the instances where math fails.

It is neither. Our understanding of the physics is limited. Because our understanding of the physics is incomplete, the equations - or math - is limited. Therefore, the equations - or math - do not presently exist to describe what happens when the field equations yield infinite densities.

The math is not failing. The math is showing the limitation or boundary of our understanding of the physics.

So now you say we have to create the math that is needed to understand these things. But earlier you said mathematics wasn't created by humans but was "discovered" because it already existed before humans did.

So which is it?

Neither because you keep misstating what I write. Try using my exact quote to make your points and you will discover your error.

You said math was discovered not created by humans.

That means mathematics exist apart from humans and the human brain.

Then you say that no math exists to describe what happens in black holes but you imply that it must exist because humans did not create mathematics but rather discovered it.

So how can you say that the math to describe black holes doesn't exist?

It does not imply that at all. The physics have not been discovered that describe what happens when Friedmann's solution to Einstein's field equations yield infinite densities. Once the physics are discovered it can be modeled using mathematical equations.

Of course it does

Either man invented the concepts of mathematics or man didn't.

You said man discovered them that means that mathematics exist whether or not humans exist.

You are all over the map. Man discovered the concepts of math. Math is not unique to man. Any intelligent being can discover the concepts of math. Mathematical truths exist independent of any creature. Mathematical truths exist in and of themselves.

Just as man did not invent that water consists of two hydrogen atoms and one oxygen atom. Man discovered that water consists of two hydrogen atoms and one oxygen atom.

So then how can you say the math to describe black holes doesn't exist?

Again... not that they don't exist but that the present equations yield infinite densities at it's boundary. You keep misstating that. But to answer your question the math hasn't been discovered yet because the physics of the boundary condition has not been discovered yet.

So now you are saying that the math does exist?

Make up your mind.

If the math does exist then we must be incapable of understanding it.

The math that describes what happens at the boundary of black holes or the beginning of the universe has not been discovered yet because the physics for those events has not been discovered yet.

So now you are saying that those things exist out there in the ether somewhere and we will eventually stumble upon them.

That is not the same thing as saying they do not exist.

See the 2 min 35 sec mark.

So he's saying that the math exists you are saying it doesn't exist.

And that is just one man's opinion anyway.

We are both saying that mathematical and scientific truths are discovered. Just like logic is discovered. No one invented that if A=B and B=C then A must equal C. Just like no one invented A^2 + B^2 = C^2 for right triangles. These truths were discovered.

But please do keep arguing against it. I can do this all day.

Logic can be subjective, like the guys who thought it was logical to crash 747s into buildings, or put explosives in their underwear.

Only you would believe that logic is subjective, taz, only you.

Muslims thought that 9/11 was logical. You lose.

That's some impressive display of logic on your part, taz.

You are just as logical as they were.

That's why logic can be subjective. You're for sure not the final arbiter of logic, that would be totally against logic.

Taz, Taz, Taz.... people are subjective. Logic is objective. You are confusing people's subjectivity for logic.

Logic can be both, as in 2+2=4, that's objective logic. Subjective logic is like someone who thinks that it's logical that they know everything. Like you.

That's a silly use of logic on your part and shows your subjectivity. I have never claimed to know everything; far from it as I will gladly admit to my ignorance on many things. What I do claim is that logic cannot be anything people want it to be. That logic is objective. And the only way logic can be subjective is from the misapplication of logic by subjective humans. Which is what you have used for every one of your examples.

Misapplication according to you. Not to them. So who gets to choose?

Reality

 

[Taz]

what happens when the laws of nature break down as they do in black holes?

That's not technically correct. The mathematics break down.

A distinction without a difference

I disagree. The laws of nature don't break down. Our understanding of the laws of nature is limited and breaks down. The math does not exist to properly model what happens at the singularity because our understanding of the physics is incomplete when the size of the universe is infinitesimally small.

So you said thing like math are discovered so that mathematics must exist outside the human brain now you say that math to describe what happens in black holes doesn't exist.

So which is it?

OR

Maybe the minds of human beings are incapable of the intellectual processes needed to understand what happens in the instances where math fails.

It is neither. Our understanding of the physics is limited. Because our understanding of the physics is incomplete, the equations - or math - is limited. Therefore, the equations - or math - do not presently exist to describe what happens when the field equations yield infinite densities.

The math is not failing. The math is showing the limitation or boundary of our understanding of the physics.

So now you say we have to create the math that is needed to understand these things. But earlier you said mathematics wasn't created by humans but was "discovered" because it already existed before humans did.

So which is it?

Neither because you keep misstating what I write. Try using my exact quote to make your points and you will discover your error.

You said math was discovered not created by humans.

That means mathematics exist apart from humans and the human brain.

Then you say that no math exists to describe what happens in black holes but you imply that it must exist because humans did not create mathematics but rather discovered it.

So how can you say that the math to describe black holes doesn't exist?

It does not imply that at all. The physics have not been discovered that describe what happens when Friedmann's solution to Einstein's field equations yield infinite densities. Once the physics are discovered it can be modeled using mathematical equations.

Of course it does

Either man invented the concepts of mathematics or man didn't.

You said man discovered them that means that mathematics exist whether or not humans exist.

You are all over the map. Man discovered the concepts of math. Math is not unique to man. Any intelligent being can discover the concepts of math. Mathematical truths exist independent of any creature. Mathematical truths exist in and of themselves.

Just as man did not invent that water consists of two hydrogen atoms and one oxygen atom. Man discovered that water consists of two hydrogen atoms and one oxygen atom.

So then how can you say the math to describe black holes doesn't exist?

Again... not that they don't exist but that the present equations yield infinite densities at it's boundary. You keep misstating that. But to answer your question the math hasn't been discovered yet because the physics of the boundary condition has not been discovered yet.

So now you are saying that the math does exist?

Make up your mind.

If the math does exist then we must be incapable of understanding it.

The math that describes what happens at the boundary of black holes or the beginning of the universe has not been discovered yet because the physics for those events has not been discovered yet.

So now you are saying that those things exist out there in the ether somewhere and we will eventually stumble upon them.

That is not the same thing as saying they do not exist.

See the 2 min 35 sec mark.

So he's saying that the math exists you are saying it doesn't exist.

And that is just one man's opinion anyway.

We are both saying that mathematical and scientific truths are discovered. Just like logic is discovered. No one invented that if A=B and B=C then A must equal C. Just like no one invented A^2 + B^2 = C^2 for right triangles. These truths were discovered.

But please do keep arguing against it. I can do this all day.

Logic can be subjective, like the guys who thought it was logical to crash 747s into buildings, or put explosives in their underwear.

Only you would believe that logic is subjective, taz, only you.

Muslims thought that 9/11 was logical. You lose.

That's some impressive display of logic on your part, taz.

You are just as logical as they were.

That's why logic can be subjective. You're for sure not the final arbiter of logic, that would be totally against logic.

Taz, Taz, Taz.... people are subjective. Logic is objective. You are confusing people's subjectivity for logic.

Logic can be both, as in 2+2=4, that's objective logic. Subjective logic is like someone who thinks that it's logical that they know everything. Like you.

That's a silly use of logic on your part and shows your subjectivity. I have never claimed to know everything; far from it as I will gladly admit to my ignorance on many things. What I do claim is that logic cannot be anything people want it to be. That logic is objective. And the only way logic can be subjective is from the misapplication of logic by subjective humans. Which is what you have used for every one of your examples.

Misapplication according to you. Not to them. So who gets to choose?

Reality

Then it was logical for them to do 9/11, which they said was retaliation for the US bombing Muslim countries and backing Israel. Seems logical to me too.

 

[ding]

what happens when the laws of nature break down as they do in black holes?

That's not technically correct. The mathematics break down.

A distinction without a difference

I disagree. The laws of nature don't break down. Our understanding of the laws of nature is limited and breaks down. The math does not exist to properly model what happens at the singularity because our understanding of the physics is incomplete when the size of the universe is infinitesimally small.

So you said thing like math are discovered so that mathematics must exist outside the human brain now you say that math to describe what happens in black holes doesn't exist.

So which is it?

OR

Maybe the minds of human beings are incapable of the intellectual processes needed to understand what happens in the instances where math fails.

It is neither. Our understanding of the physics is limited. Because our understanding of the physics is incomplete, the equations - or math - is limited. Therefore, the equations - or math - do not presently exist to describe what happens when the field equations yield infinite densities.

The math is not failing. The math is showing the limitation or boundary of our understanding of the physics.

So now you say we have to create the math that is needed to understand these things. But earlier you said mathematics wasn't created by humans but was "discovered" because it already existed before humans did.

So which is it?

Neither because you keep misstating what I write. Try using my exact quote to make your points and you will discover your error.

You said math was discovered not created by humans.

That means mathematics exist apart from humans and the human brain.

Then you say that no math exists to describe what happens in black holes but you imply that it must exist because humans did not create mathematics but rather discovered it.

So how can you say that the math to describe black holes doesn't exist?

It does not imply that at all. The physics have not been discovered that describe what happens when Friedmann's solution to Einstein's field equations yield infinite densities. Once the physics are discovered it can be modeled using mathematical equations.

Of course it does

Either man invented the concepts of mathematics or man didn't.

You said man discovered them that means that mathematics exist whether or not humans exist.

You are all over the map. Man discovered the concepts of math. Math is not unique to man. Any intelligent being can discover the concepts of math. Mathematical truths exist independent of any creature. Mathematical truths exist in and of themselves.

Just as man did not invent that water consists of two hydrogen atoms and one oxygen atom. Man discovered that water consists of two hydrogen atoms and one oxygen atom.

So then how can you say the math to describe black holes doesn't exist?

Again... not that they don't exist but that the present equations yield infinite densities at it's boundary. You keep misstating that. But to answer your question the math hasn't been discovered yet because the physics of the boundary condition has not been discovered yet.

So now you are saying that the math does exist?

Make up your mind.

If the math does exist then we must be incapable of understanding it.

The math that describes what happens at the boundary of black holes or the beginning of the universe has not been discovered yet because the physics for those events has not been discovered yet.

So now you are saying that those things exist out there in the ether somewhere and we will eventually stumble upon them.

That is not the same thing as saying they do not exist.

See the 2 min 35 sec mark.

So he's saying that the math exists you are saying it doesn't exist.

And that is just one man's opinion anyway.

We are both saying that mathematical and scientific truths are discovered. Just like logic is discovered. No one invented that if A=B and B=C then A must equal C. Just like no one invented A^2 + B^2 = C^2 for right triangles. These truths were discovered.

But please do keep arguing against it. I can do this all day.

Logic can be subjective, like the guys who thought it was logical to crash 747s into buildings, or put explosives in their underwear.

Only you would believe that logic is subjective, taz, only you.

Muslims thought that 9/11 was logical. You lose.

That's some impressive display of logic on your part, taz.

You are just as logical as they were.

That's why logic can be subjective. You're for sure not the final arbiter of logic, that would be totally against logic.

Taz, Taz, Taz.... people are subjective. Logic is objective. You are confusing people's subjectivity for logic.

Logic can be both, as in 2+2=4, that's objective logic. Subjective logic is like someone who thinks that it's logical that they know everything. Like you.

That's a silly use of logic on your part and shows your subjectivity. I have never claimed to know everything; far from it as I will gladly admit to my ignorance on many things. What I do claim is that logic cannot be anything people want it to be. That logic is objective. And the only way logic can be subjective is from the misapplication of logic by subjective humans. Which is what you have used for every one of your examples.

Misapplication according to you. Not to them. So who gets to choose?

Reality

Then it was logical for them to do 9/11, which they said was retaliation for the US bombing Muslim countries and backing Israel. Seems logical to me too.

Any rationalization of violence as good is illogical, taz.

 

[Fort Fun Indiana]

Of course the establishment just confirms it.

Uh, no, the evidence all seems to confirm it. It's just a model. Don't take it so personally. You aren't going to envision warped space in 4 dimensions and be forced to accept that perception. It's a mathematical model that yields useful results.

Yes, as a "mathematical model" or oversimplification it's certainly taken the world by storm in terms of being useful for calculations. And of course it works. It all worked before Einstein rearranged things a bit and called it new. He borrowed E = mc^2 straight from Maxwell, ignored the messy bits, then naturally futzed around trying to combine it with E=hv from his buddy, Max Planck. Someone was bound to do it sooner or later. He happened to be well positioned at just the right moment.

What it doesn't mean is that trying to jamb all of physics into fitting his stupid warped vision of space notion has made a lot of sense. To the contrary. Physics now remains FUBAR. We could easily be much further along. But that chunk of potential bomb meat was too mesmerizing. The establishment quickly circled its wagons. The rest is history. And.. they liked it. They loved it! Still can't seem to get enough of it.

The reality is much more elegant. Far simpler in many ways, more complex in some others.. Sad that most will likely never even catch a glimpse.

Ha, okay...but, when you want to know what effect massive objects will have on spacetime and light, you will be using einstein's equations.

 

[Blues Man]

what happens when the laws of nature break down as they do in black holes?

That's not technically correct. The mathematics break down.

A distinction without a difference

I disagree. The laws of nature don't break down. Our understanding of the laws of nature is limited and breaks down. The math does not exist to properly model what happens at the singularity because our understanding of the physics is incomplete when the size of the universe is infinitesimally small.

So you said thing like math are discovered so that mathematics must exist outside the human brain now you say that math to describe what happens in black holes doesn't exist.

So which is it?

OR

Maybe the minds of human beings are incapable of the intellectual processes needed to understand what happens in the instances where math fails.

It is neither. Our understanding of the physics is limited. Because our understanding of the physics is incomplete, the equations - or math - is limited. Therefore, the equations - or math - do not presently exist to describe what happens when the field equations yield infinite densities.

The math is not failing. The math is showing the limitation or boundary of our understanding of the physics.

So now you say we have to create the math that is needed to understand these things. But earlier you said mathematics wasn't created by humans but was "discovered" because it already existed before humans did.

So which is it?

Neither because you keep misstating what I write. Try using my exact quote to make your points and you will discover your error.

You said math was discovered not created by humans.

That means mathematics exist apart from humans and the human brain.

Then you say that no math exists to describe what happens in black holes but you imply that it must exist because humans did not create mathematics but rather discovered it.

So how can you say that the math to describe black holes doesn't exist?

It does not imply that at all. The physics have not been discovered that describe what happens when Friedmann's solution to Einstein's field equations yield infinite densities. Once the physics are discovered it can be modeled using mathematical equations.

Of course it does

Either man invented the concepts of mathematics or man didn't.

You said man discovered them that means that mathematics exist whether or not humans exist.

You are all over the map. Man discovered the concepts of math. Math is not unique to man. Any intelligent being can discover the concepts of math. Mathematical truths exist independent of any creature. Mathematical truths exist in and of themselves.

Just as man did not invent that water consists of two hydrogen atoms and one oxygen atom. Man discovered that water consists of two hydrogen atoms and one oxygen atom.

So then how can you say the math to describe black holes doesn't exist?

Again... not that they don't exist but that the present equations yield infinite densities at it's boundary. You keep misstating that. But to answer your question the math hasn't been discovered yet because the physics of the boundary condition has not been discovered yet.

So now you are saying that the math does exist?

Make up your mind.

If the math does exist then we must be incapable of understanding it.

The math that describes what happens at the boundary of black holes or the beginning of the universe has not been discovered yet because the physics for those events has not been discovered yet.

So now you are saying that those things exist out there in the ether somewhere and we will eventually stumble upon them.

That is not the same thing as saying they do not exist.

See the 2 min 35 sec mark.

So he's saying that the math exists you are saying it doesn't exist.

And that is just one man's opinion anyway.

We are both saying that mathematical and scientific truths are discovered. Just like logic is discovered. No one invented that if A=B and B=C then A must equal C. Just like no one invented A^2 + B^2 = C^2 for right triangles. These truths were discovered.

But please do keep arguing against it. I can do this all day.

So you're changing your tune again.

Did you not say the math does not exist?

If it does not exist it cannot be discovered can it?

Exact right triangles are a man made construct. So the math describing them is a man made construct

There is no reason to think the mathematics of an alien intelligence will be the same as ours.

Never changed my tune. You take things out of context cause you have nothing else.

I love how hard you are trying to prove this.

Einstein did not invent E=mc^2. He discovered it.

I quoted you verbatim.

And you still deny you said it

Math is a human invention as a way to represent what we see.

You are confusing math and what math was invented to describe.

There is nothing to prove that the mathematics of an alien intelligence will be the same as ours

Man discovered math. Man did not invent math. Math is universal. Same for logic, science, music, etc.

you are confusing math with the things it was invented to describe.

No. I'm not. E=mc^2 wasn't invented. It was discovered. Einstein could not make it be anything he wanted it to be like Apple could with its iPod. So E=mc^2 isn't an invention, it is a mathematical reality that describes a physical phenomenon. The physical phenomenon and the math that describes it were discovered.

The math that describes the relationship between mass and energy is a human invention.

You are confusing the math with the things it is being used to describe.

 

[Blues Man]

what happens when the laws of nature break down as they do in black holes?

That's not technically correct. The mathematics break down.

A distinction without a difference

I disagree. The laws of nature don't break down. Our understanding of the laws of nature is limited and breaks down. The math does not exist to properly model what happens at the singularity because our understanding of the physics is incomplete when the size of the universe is infinitesimally small.

So you said thing like math are discovered so that mathematics must exist outside the human brain now you say that math to describe what happens in black holes doesn't exist.

So which is it?

OR

Maybe the minds of human beings are incapable of the intellectual processes needed to understand what happens in the instances where math fails.

It is neither. Our understanding of the physics is limited. Because our understanding of the physics is incomplete, the equations - or math - is limited. Therefore, the equations - or math - do not presently exist to describe what happens when the field equations yield infinite densities.

The math is not failing. The math is showing the limitation or boundary of our understanding of the physics.

So now you say we have to create the math that is needed to understand these things. But earlier you said mathematics wasn't created by humans but was "discovered" because it already existed before humans did.

So which is it?

Neither because you keep misstating what I write. Try using my exact quote to make your points and you will discover your error.

You said math was discovered not created by humans.

That means mathematics exist apart from humans and the human brain.

Then you say that no math exists to describe what happens in black holes but you imply that it must exist because humans did not create mathematics but rather discovered it.

So how can you say that the math to describe black holes doesn't exist?

It does not imply that at all. The physics have not been discovered that describe what happens when Friedmann's solution to Einstein's field equations yield infinite densities. Once the physics are discovered it can be modeled using mathematical equations.

Of course it does

Either man invented the concepts of mathematics or man didn't.

You said man discovered them that means that mathematics exist whether or not humans exist.

You are all over the map. Man discovered the concepts of math. Math is not unique to man. Any intelligent being can discover the concepts of math. Mathematical truths exist independent of any creature. Mathematical truths exist in and of themselves.

Just as man did not invent that water consists of two hydrogen atoms and one oxygen atom. Man discovered that water consists of two hydrogen atoms and one oxygen atom.

So then how can you say the math to describe black holes doesn't exist?

Again... not that they don't exist but that the present equations yield infinite densities at it's boundary. You keep misstating that. But to answer your question the math hasn't been discovered yet because the physics of the boundary condition has not been discovered yet.

So now you are saying that the math does exist?

Make up your mind.

If the math does exist then we must be incapable of understanding it.

The math that describes what happens at the boundary of black holes or the beginning of the universe has not been discovered yet because the physics for those events has not been discovered yet.

So now you are saying that those things exist out there in the ether somewhere and we will eventually stumble upon them.

That is not the same thing as saying they do not exist.

See the 2 min 35 sec mark.

So he's saying that the math exists you are saying it doesn't exist.

And that is just one man's opinion anyway.

We are both saying that mathematical and scientific truths are discovered. Just like logic is discovered. No one invented that if A=B and B=C then A must equal C. Just like no one invented A^2 + B^2 = C^2 for right triangles. These truths were discovered.

But please do keep arguing against it. I can do this all day.

Logic can be subjective, like the guys who thought it was logical to crash 747s into buildings, or put explosives in their underwear.

Only you would believe that logic is subjective, taz, only you.

Muslims thought that 9/11 was logical. You lose.

That's some impressive display of logic on your part, taz.

You are just as logical as they were.

That's why logic can be subjective. You're for sure not the final arbiter of logic, that would be totally against logic.

Taz, Taz, Taz.... people are subjective. Logic is objective. You are confusing people's subjectivity for logic.

Logic can be both, as in 2+2=4, that's objective logic. Subjective logic is like someone who thinks that it's logical that they know everything. Like you.

That's a silly use of logic on your part and shows your subjectivity. I have never claimed to know everything; far from it as I will gladly admit to my ignorance on many things. What I do claim is that logic cannot be anything people want it to be. That logic is objective. And the only way logic can be subjective is from the misapplication of logic by subjective humans. Which is what you have used for every one of your examples.

Misapplication according to you. Not to them. So who gets to choose?

Reality

Then it was logical for them to do 9/11, which they said was retaliation for the US bombing Muslim countries and backing Israel. Seems logical to me too.

Any rationalization of violence as good is illogical, taz.

But not all acts of violence are considered bad or immoral because we have subjectively rationalized that not all violence is "bad".

 

[ding]

what happens when the laws of nature break down as they do in black holes?

That's not technically correct. The mathematics break down.

A distinction without a difference

I disagree. The laws of nature don't break down. Our understanding of the laws of nature is limited and breaks down. The math does not exist to properly model what happens at the singularity because our understanding of the physics is incomplete when the size of the universe is infinitesimally small.

So you said thing like math are discovered so that mathematics must exist outside the human brain now you say that math to describe what happens in black holes doesn't exist.

So which is it?

OR

Maybe the minds of human beings are incapable of the intellectual processes needed to understand what happens in the instances where math fails.

It is neither. Our understanding of the physics is limited. Because our understanding of the physics is incomplete, the equations - or math - is limited. Therefore, the equations - or math - do not presently exist to describe what happens when the field equations yield infinite densities.

The math is not failing. The math is showing the limitation or boundary of our understanding of the physics.

So now you say we have to create the math that is needed to understand these things. But earlier you said mathematics wasn't created by humans but was "discovered" because it already existed before humans did.

So which is it?

Neither because you keep misstating what I write. Try using my exact quote to make your points and you will discover your error.

You said math was discovered not created by humans.

That means mathematics exist apart from humans and the human brain.

Then you say that no math exists to describe what happens in black holes but you imply that it must exist because humans did not create mathematics but rather discovered it.

So how can you say that the math to describe black holes doesn't exist?

It does not imply that at all. The physics have not been discovered that describe what happens when Friedmann's solution to Einstein's field equations yield infinite densities. Once the physics are discovered it can be modeled using mathematical equations.

Of course it does

Either man invented the concepts of mathematics or man didn't.

You said man discovered them that means that mathematics exist whether or not humans exist.

You are all over the map. Man discovered the concepts of math. Math is not unique to man. Any intelligent being can discover the concepts of math. Mathematical truths exist independent of any creature. Mathematical truths exist in and of themselves.

Just as man did not invent that water consists of two hydrogen atoms and one oxygen atom. Man discovered that water consists of two hydrogen atoms and one oxygen atom.

So then how can you say the math to describe black holes doesn't exist?

Again... not that they don't exist but that the present equations yield infinite densities at it's boundary. You keep misstating that. But to answer your question the math hasn't been discovered yet because the physics of the boundary condition has not been discovered yet.

So now you are saying that the math does exist?

Make up your mind.

If the math does exist then we must be incapable of understanding it.

The math that describes what happens at the boundary of black holes or the beginning of the universe has not been discovered yet because the physics for those events has not been discovered yet.

So now you are saying that those things exist out there in the ether somewhere and we will eventually stumble upon them.

That is not the same thing as saying they do not exist.

See the 2 min 35 sec mark.

So he's saying that the math exists you are saying it doesn't exist.

And that is just one man's opinion anyway.

We are both saying that mathematical and scientific truths are discovered. Just like logic is discovered. No one invented that if A=B and B=C then A must equal C. Just like no one invented A^2 + B^2 = C^2 for right triangles. These truths were discovered.

But please do keep arguing against it. I can do this all day.

So you're changing your tune again.

Did you not say the math does not exist?

If it does not exist it cannot be discovered can it?

Exact right triangles are a man made construct. So the math describing them is a man made construct

There is no reason to think the mathematics of an alien intelligence will be the same as ours.

Never changed my tune. You take things out of context cause you have nothing else.

I love how hard you are trying to prove this.

Einstein did not invent E=mc^2. He discovered it.

I quoted you verbatim.

And you still deny you said it

Math is a human invention as a way to represent what we see.

You are confusing math and what math was invented to describe.

There is nothing to prove that the mathematics of an alien intelligence will be the same as ours

Man discovered math. Man did not invent math. Math is universal. Same for logic, science, music, etc.

you are confusing math with the things it was invented to describe.

No. I'm not. E=mc^2 wasn't invented. It was discovered. Einstein could not make it be anything he wanted it to be like Apple could with its iPod. So E=mc^2 isn't an invention, it is a mathematical reality that describes a physical phenomenon. The physical phenomenon and the math that describes it were discovered.

The math that describes the relationship between matter and energy is a human invention.

You are confusing the math with the things it is being used to describe.

So I invented that if A=B and B=C then A=C?

 

[ding]

what happens when the laws of nature break down as they do in black holes?

That's not technically correct. The mathematics break down.

A distinction without a difference

I disagree. The laws of nature don't break down. Our understanding of the laws of nature is limited and breaks down. The math does not exist to properly model what happens at the singularity because our understanding of the physics is incomplete when the size of the universe is infinitesimally small.

So you said thing like math are discovered so that mathematics must exist outside the human brain now you say that math to describe what happens in black holes doesn't exist.

So which is it?

OR

Maybe the minds of human beings are incapable of the intellectual processes needed to understand what happens in the instances where math fails.

It is neither. Our understanding of the physics is limited. Because our understanding of the physics is incomplete, the equations - or math - is limited. Therefore, the equations - or math - do not presently exist to describe what happens when the field equations yield infinite densities.

The math is not failing. The math is showing the limitation or boundary of our understanding of the physics.

So now you say we have to create the math that is needed to understand these things. But earlier you said mathematics wasn't created by humans but was "discovered" because it already existed before humans did.

So which is it?

Neither because you keep misstating what I write. Try using my exact quote to make your points and you will discover your error.

You said math was discovered not created by humans.

That means mathematics exist apart from humans and the human brain.

Then you say that no math exists to describe what happens in black holes but you imply that it must exist because humans did not create mathematics but rather discovered it.

So how can you say that the math to describe black holes doesn't exist?

It does not imply that at all. The physics have not been discovered that describe what happens when Friedmann's solution to Einstein's field equations yield infinite densities. Once the physics are discovered it can be modeled using mathematical equations.

Of course it does

Either man invented the concepts of mathematics or man didn't.

You said man discovered them that means that mathematics exist whether or not humans exist.

You are all over the map. Man discovered the concepts of math. Math is not unique to man. Any intelligent being can discover the concepts of math. Mathematical truths exist independent of any creature. Mathematical truths exist in and of themselves.

Just as man did not invent that water consists of two hydrogen atoms and one oxygen atom. Man discovered that water consists of two hydrogen atoms and one oxygen atom.

So then how can you say the math to describe black holes doesn't exist?

Again... not that they don't exist but that the present equations yield infinite densities at it's boundary. You keep misstating that. But to answer your question the math hasn't been discovered yet because the physics of the boundary condition has not been discovered yet.

So now you are saying that the math does exist?

Make up your mind.

If the math does exist then we must be incapable of understanding it.

The math that describes what happens at the boundary of black holes or the beginning of the universe has not been discovered yet because the physics for those events has not been discovered yet.

So now you are saying that those things exist out there in the ether somewhere and we will eventually stumble upon them.

That is not the same thing as saying they do not exist.

See the 2 min 35 sec mark.

So he's saying that the math exists you are saying it doesn't exist.

And that is just one man's opinion anyway.

We are both saying that mathematical and scientific truths are discovered. Just like logic is discovered. No one invented that if A=B and B=C then A must equal C. Just like no one invented A^2 + B^2 = C^2 for right triangles. These truths were discovered.

But please do keep arguing against it. I can do this all day.

Logic can be subjective, like the guys who thought it was logical to crash 747s into buildings, or put explosives in their underwear.

Only you would believe that logic is subjective, taz, only you.

Muslims thought that 9/11 was logical. You lose.

That's some impressive display of logic on your part, taz.

You are just as logical as they were.

That's why logic can be subjective. You're for sure not the final arbiter of logic, that would be totally against logic.

Taz, Taz, Taz.... people are subjective. Logic is objective. You are confusing people's subjectivity for logic.

Logic can be both, as in 2+2=4, that's objective logic. Subjective logic is like someone who thinks that it's logical that they know everything. Like you.

That's a silly use of logic on your part and shows your subjectivity. I have never claimed to know everything; far from it as I will gladly admit to my ignorance on many things. What I do claim is that logic cannot be anything people want it to be. That logic is objective. And the only way logic can be subjective is from the misapplication of logic by subjective humans. Which is what you have used for every one of your examples.

Misapplication according to you. Not to them. So who gets to choose?

Reality

Then it was logical for them to do 9/11, which they said was retaliation for the US bombing Muslim countries and backing Israel. Seems logical to me too.

Any rationalization of violence as good is illogical, taz.

But not all acts of violence are considered bad or immoral because we have subjectively rationalized that not all violence is "bad".

The lesser of two evils does not moralize the lesser of the two evils.

 

[Blues Man]

what happens when the laws of nature break down as they do in black holes?

That's not technically correct. The mathematics break down.

A distinction without a difference

I disagree. The laws of nature don't break down. Our understanding of the laws of nature is limited and breaks down. The math does not exist to properly model what happens at the singularity because our understanding of the physics is incomplete when the size of the universe is infinitesimally small.

So you said thing like math are discovered so that mathematics must exist outside the human brain now you say that math to describe what happens in black holes doesn't exist.

So which is it?

OR

Maybe the minds of human beings are incapable of the intellectual processes needed to understand what happens in the instances where math fails.

It is neither. Our understanding of the physics is limited. Because our understanding of the physics is incomplete, the equations - or math - is limited. Therefore, the equations - or math - do not presently exist to describe what happens when the field equations yield infinite densities.

The math is not failing. The math is showing the limitation or boundary of our understanding of the physics.

So now you say we have to create the math that is needed to understand these things. But earlier you said mathematics wasn't created by humans but was "discovered" because it already existed before humans did.

So which is it?

Neither because you keep misstating what I write. Try using my exact quote to make your points and you will discover your error.

You said math was discovered not created by humans.

That means mathematics exist apart from humans and the human brain.

Then you say that no math exists to describe what happens in black holes but you imply that it must exist because humans did not create mathematics but rather discovered it.

So how can you say that the math to describe black holes doesn't exist?

It does not imply that at all. The physics have not been discovered that describe what happens when Friedmann's solution to Einstein's field equations yield infinite densities. Once the physics are discovered it can be modeled using mathematical equations.

Of course it does

Either man invented the concepts of mathematics or man didn't.

You said man discovered them that means that mathematics exist whether or not humans exist.

You are all over the map. Man discovered the concepts of math. Math is not unique to man. Any intelligent being can discover the concepts of math. Mathematical truths exist independent of any creature. Mathematical truths exist in and of themselves.

Just as man did not invent that water consists of two hydrogen atoms and one oxygen atom. Man discovered that water consists of two hydrogen atoms and one oxygen atom.

So then how can you say the math to describe black holes doesn't exist?

Again... not that they don't exist but that the present equations yield infinite densities at it's boundary. You keep misstating that. But to answer your question the math hasn't been discovered yet because the physics of the boundary condition has not been discovered yet.

So now you are saying that the math does exist?

Make up your mind.

If the math does exist then we must be incapable of understanding it.

The math that describes what happens at the boundary of black holes or the beginning of the universe has not been discovered yet because the physics for those events has not been discovered yet.

So now you are saying that those things exist out there in the ether somewhere and we will eventually stumble upon them.

That is not the same thing as saying they do not exist.

See the 2 min 35 sec mark.

So he's saying that the math exists you are saying it doesn't exist.

And that is just one man's opinion anyway.

We are both saying that mathematical and scientific truths are discovered. Just like logic is discovered. No one invented that if A=B and B=C then A must equal C. Just like no one invented A^2 + B^2 = C^2 for right triangles. These truths were discovered.

But please do keep arguing against it. I can do this all day.

So you're changing your tune again.

Did you not say the math does not exist?

If it does not exist it cannot be discovered can it?

Exact right triangles are a man made construct. So the math describing them is a man made construct

There is no reason to think the mathematics of an alien intelligence will be the same as ours.

Never changed my tune. You take things out of context cause you have nothing else.

I love how hard you are trying to prove this.

Einstein did not invent E=mc^2. He discovered it.

I quoted you verbatim.

And you still deny you said it

Math is a human invention as a way to represent what we see.

You are confusing math and what math was invented to describe.

There is nothing to prove that the mathematics of an alien intelligence will be the same as ours

Man discovered math. Man did not invent math. Math is universal. Same for logic, science, music, etc.

you are confusing math with the things it was invented to describe.

No. I'm not. E=mc^2 wasn't invented. It was discovered. Einstein could not make it be anything he wanted it to be like Apple could with its iPod. So E=mc^2 isn't an invention, it is a mathematical reality that describes a physical phenomenon. The physical phenomenon and the math that describes it were discovered.

The math that describes the relationship between matter and energy is a human invention.

You are confusing the math with the things it is being used to describe.

So I invented that if A=B and B=C then A=C?

Mathematics was invented to describe observed phenomenon in the natural world.

Like the path of a thrown object or the acceleration of a body due to gravity.

It is a representation of the phenomenon not the phenomenon itself.

 

[Blues Man]

what happens when the laws of nature break down as they do in black holes?

That's not technically correct. The mathematics break down.

A distinction without a difference

I disagree. The laws of nature don't break down. Our understanding of the laws of nature is limited and breaks down. The math does not exist to properly model what happens at the singularity because our understanding of the physics is incomplete when the size of the universe is infinitesimally small.

So you said thing like math are discovered so that mathematics must exist outside the human brain now you say that math to describe what happens in black holes doesn't exist.

So which is it?

OR

Maybe the minds of human beings are incapable of the intellectual processes needed to understand what happens in the instances where math fails.

It is neither. Our understanding of the physics is limited. Because our understanding of the physics is incomplete, the equations - or math - is limited. Therefore, the equations - or math - do not presently exist to describe what happens when the field equations yield infinite densities.

The math is not failing. The math is showing the limitation or boundary of our understanding of the physics.

So now you say we have to create the math that is needed to understand these things. But earlier you said mathematics wasn't created by humans but was "discovered" because it already existed before humans did.

So which is it?

Neither because you keep misstating what I write. Try using my exact quote to make your points and you will discover your error.

You said math was discovered not created by humans.

That means mathematics exist apart from humans and the human brain.

Then you say that no math exists to describe what happens in black holes but you imply that it must exist because humans did not create mathematics but rather discovered it.

So how can you say that the math to describe black holes doesn't exist?

It does not imply that at all. The physics have not been discovered that describe what happens when Friedmann's solution to Einstein's field equations yield infinite densities. Once the physics are discovered it can be modeled using mathematical equations.

Of course it does

Either man invented the concepts of mathematics or man didn't.

You said man discovered them that means that mathematics exist whether or not humans exist.

You are all over the map. Man discovered the concepts of math. Math is not unique to man. Any intelligent being can discover the concepts of math. Mathematical truths exist independent of any creature. Mathematical truths exist in and of themselves.

Just as man did not invent that water consists of two hydrogen atoms and one oxygen atom. Man discovered that water consists of two hydrogen atoms and one oxygen atom.

So then how can you say the math to describe black holes doesn't exist?

Again... not that they don't exist but that the present equations yield infinite densities at it's boundary. You keep misstating that. But to answer your question the math hasn't been discovered yet because the physics of the boundary condition has not been discovered yet.

So now you are saying that the math does exist?

Make up your mind.

If the math does exist then we must be incapable of understanding it.

The math that describes what happens at the boundary of black holes or the beginning of the universe has not been discovered yet because the physics for those events has not been discovered yet.

So now you are saying that those things exist out there in the ether somewhere and we will eventually stumble upon them.

That is not the same thing as saying they do not exist.

See the 2 min 35 sec mark.

So he's saying that the math exists you are saying it doesn't exist.

And that is just one man's opinion anyway.

We are both saying that mathematical and scientific truths are discovered. Just like logic is discovered. No one invented that if A=B and B=C then A must equal C. Just like no one invented A^2 + B^2 = C^2 for right triangles. These truths were discovered.

But please do keep arguing against it. I can do this all day.

Logic can be subjective, like the guys who thought it was logical to crash 747s into buildings, or put explosives in their underwear.

Only you would believe that logic is subjective, taz, only you.

Muslims thought that 9/11 was logical. You lose.

That's some impressive display of logic on your part, taz.

You are just as logical as they were.

That's why logic can be subjective. You're for sure not the final arbiter of logic, that would be totally against logic.

Taz, Taz, Taz.... people are subjective. Logic is objective. You are confusing people's subjectivity for logic.

Logic can be both, as in 2+2=4, that's objective logic. Subjective logic is like someone who thinks that it's logical that they know everything. Like you.

That's a silly use of logic on your part and shows your subjectivity. I have never claimed to know everything; far from it as I will gladly admit to my ignorance on many things. What I do claim is that logic cannot be anything people want it to be. That logic is objective. And the only way logic can be subjective is from the misapplication of logic by subjective humans. Which is what you have used for every one of your examples.

Misapplication according to you. Not to them. So who gets to choose?

Reality

Then it was logical for them to do 9/11, which they said was retaliation for the US bombing Muslim countries and backing Israel. Seems logical to me too.

Any rationalization of violence as good is illogical, taz.

But not all acts of violence are considered bad or immoral because we have subjectively rationalized that not all violence is "bad".

The lesser of two evils does not moralize the lesser of the two evils.

Of course it does because we do not punish one and we do punish the other therefore one is right and one is wrong.

It's OK for your government to send you to a foreign country to kill people but not OK for you to go to a foreign country and kill those same people on your own.

It's OK for the government to kill a murderer but it's not OK for a member of the victim's family to kill that same murderer.

Evil is just another subjective value judgement we make.

 

[Taz]

what happens when the laws of nature break down as they do in black holes?

That's not technically correct. The mathematics break down.

A distinction without a difference

I disagree. The laws of nature don't break down. Our understanding of the laws of nature is limited and breaks down. The math does not exist to properly model what happens at the singularity because our understanding of the physics is incomplete when the size of the universe is infinitesimally small.

So you said thing like math are discovered so that mathematics must exist outside the human brain now you say that math to describe what happens in black holes doesn't exist.

So which is it?

OR

Maybe the minds of human beings are incapable of the intellectual processes needed to understand what happens in the instances where math fails.

It is neither. Our understanding of the physics is limited. Because our understanding of the physics is incomplete, the equations - or math - is limited. Therefore, the equations - or math - do not presently exist to describe what happens when the field equations yield infinite densities.

The math is not failing. The math is showing the limitation or boundary of our understanding of the physics.

So now you say we have to create the math that is needed to understand these things. But earlier you said mathematics wasn't created by humans but was "discovered" because it already existed before humans did.

So which is it?

Neither because you keep misstating what I write. Try using my exact quote to make your points and you will discover your error.

You said math was discovered not created by humans.

That means mathematics exist apart from humans and the human brain.

Then you say that no math exists to describe what happens in black holes but you imply that it must exist because humans did not create mathematics but rather discovered it.

So how can you say that the math to describe black holes doesn't exist?

It does not imply that at all. The physics have not been discovered that describe what happens when Friedmann's solution to Einstein's field equations yield infinite densities. Once the physics are discovered it can be modeled using mathematical equations.

Of course it does

Either man invented the concepts of mathematics or man didn't.

You said man discovered them that means that mathematics exist whether or not humans exist.

You are all over the map. Man discovered the concepts of math. Math is not unique to man. Any intelligent being can discover the concepts of math. Mathematical truths exist independent of any creature. Mathematical truths exist in and of themselves.

Just as man did not invent that water consists of two hydrogen atoms and one oxygen atom. Man discovered that water consists of two hydrogen atoms and one oxygen atom.

So then how can you say the math to describe black holes doesn't exist?

Again... not that they don't exist but that the present equations yield infinite densities at it's boundary. You keep misstating that. But to answer your question the math hasn't been discovered yet because the physics of the boundary condition has not been discovered yet.

So now you are saying that the math does exist?

Make up your mind.

If the math does exist then we must be incapable of understanding it.

The math that describes what happens at the boundary of black holes or the beginning of the universe has not been discovered yet because the physics for those events has not been discovered yet.

So now you are saying that those things exist out there in the ether somewhere and we will eventually stumble upon them.

That is not the same thing as saying they do not exist.

See the 2 min 35 sec mark.

So he's saying that the math exists you are saying it doesn't exist.

And that is just one man's opinion anyway.

We are both saying that mathematical and scientific truths are discovered. Just like logic is discovered. No one invented that if A=B and B=C then A must equal C. Just like no one invented A^2 + B^2 = C^2 for right triangles. These truths were discovered.

But please do keep arguing against it. I can do this all day.

Logic can be subjective, like the guys who thought it was logical to crash 747s into buildings, or put explosives in their underwear.

Only you would believe that logic is subjective, taz, only you.

Muslims thought that 9/11 was logical. You lose.

That's some impressive display of logic on your part, taz.

You are just as logical as they were.

That's why logic can be subjective. You're for sure not the final arbiter of logic, that would be totally against logic.

Taz, Taz, Taz.... people are subjective. Logic is objective. You are confusing people's subjectivity for logic.

Logic can be both, as in 2+2=4, that's objective logic. Subjective logic is like someone who thinks that it's logical that they know everything. Like you.

That's a silly use of logic on your part and shows your subjectivity. I have never claimed to know everything; far from it as I will gladly admit to my ignorance on many things. What I do claim is that logic cannot be anything people want it to be. That logic is objective. And the only way logic can be subjective is from the misapplication of logic by subjective humans. Which is what you have used for every one of your examples.

Misapplication according to you. Not to them. So who gets to choose?

Reality

Then it was logical for them to do 9/11, which they said was retaliation for the US bombing Muslim countries and backing Israel. Seems logical to me too.

Any rationalization of violence as good is illogical, taz.

So if I kill someone who is trying to kill me, that’s not logically good?

 

[schmidlap]

We can see the vast number of life forms here on the planet Earth. The oceans, on land, the different varieties of plants. All this life did not just happen by accident , as many non beleiving scientist say. God does exist. This is a planet with air , water, and food for us all to consume. It was not made by accident. This world was created for us by an intelligent God. We did not evolve from apes . We were all created by God. Designed in his likeness. Your thoughts.

Do you deny the existence of most of the gods?

Some folks, the borderline atheists, limit their belief to just one, token, all-purpose god and refuse to accept all the others in their multifarious specializations

-as is their right, which should be respected.

 

[Grumblenuts]

but, when you want to know what effect massive objects will have on spacetime and light, you will be using einstein's equations.

I may have had to in order to pass an exam or two. Otherwise, I'd never think in such terms.

"According to the theory of relativity, space without ether is unthinkable; for in such space, not only would there be no propagation of light, but also no space-time intervals in the physical sense."

Albert Einstein

 

[ding]

what happens when the laws of nature break down as they do in black holes?

That's not technically correct. The mathematics break down.

A distinction without a difference

I disagree. The laws of nature don't break down. Our understanding of the laws of nature is limited and breaks down. The math does not exist to properly model what happens at the singularity because our understanding of the physics is incomplete when the size of the universe is infinitesimally small.

So you said thing like math are discovered so that mathematics must exist outside the human brain now you say that math to describe what happens in black holes doesn't exist.

So which is it?

OR

Maybe the minds of human beings are incapable of the intellectual processes needed to understand what happens in the instances where math fails.

It is neither. Our understanding of the physics is limited. Because our understanding of the physics is incomplete, the equations - or math - is limited. Therefore, the equations - or math - do not presently exist to describe what happens when the field equations yield infinite densities.

The math is not failing. The math is showing the limitation or boundary of our understanding of the physics.

So now you say we have to create the math that is needed to understand these things. But earlier you said mathematics wasn't created by humans but was "discovered" because it already existed before humans did.

So which is it?

Neither because you keep misstating what I write. Try using my exact quote to make your points and you will discover your error.

You said math was discovered not created by humans.

That means mathematics exist apart from humans and the human brain.

Then you say that no math exists to describe what happens in black holes but you imply that it must exist because humans did not create mathematics but rather discovered it.

So how can you say that the math to describe black holes doesn't exist?

It does not imply that at all. The physics have not been discovered that describe what happens when Friedmann's solution to Einstein's field equations yield infinite densities. Once the physics are discovered it can be modeled using mathematical equations.

Of course it does

Either man invented the concepts of mathematics or man didn't.

You said man discovered them that means that mathematics exist whether or not humans exist.

You are all over the map. Man discovered the concepts of math. Math is not unique to man. Any intelligent being can discover the concepts of math. Mathematical truths exist independent of any creature. Mathematical truths exist in and of themselves.

Just as man did not invent that water consists of two hydrogen atoms and one oxygen atom. Man discovered that water consists of two hydrogen atoms and one oxygen atom.

So then how can you say the math to describe black holes doesn't exist?

Again... not that they don't exist but that the present equations yield infinite densities at it's boundary. You keep misstating that. But to answer your question the math hasn't been discovered yet because the physics of the boundary condition has not been discovered yet.

So now you are saying that the math does exist?

Make up your mind.

If the math does exist then we must be incapable of understanding it.

The math that describes what happens at the boundary of black holes or the beginning of the universe has not been discovered yet because the physics for those events has not been discovered yet.

So now you are saying that those things exist out there in the ether somewhere and we will eventually stumble upon them.

That is not the same thing as saying they do not exist.

See the 2 min 35 sec mark.

So he's saying that the math exists you are saying it doesn't exist.

And that is just one man's opinion anyway.

We are both saying that mathematical and scientific truths are discovered. Just like logic is discovered. No one invented that if A=B and B=C then A must equal C. Just like no one invented A^2 + B^2 = C^2 for right triangles. These truths were discovered.

But please do keep arguing against it. I can do this all day.

So you're changing your tune again.

Did you not say the math does not exist?

If it does not exist it cannot be discovered can it?

Exact right triangles are a man made construct. So the math describing them is a man made construct

There is no reason to think the mathematics of an alien intelligence will be the same as ours.

Never changed my tune. You take things out of context cause you have nothing else.

I love how hard you are trying to prove this.

Einstein did not invent E=mc^2. He discovered it.

I quoted you verbatim.

And you still deny you said it

Math is a human invention as a way to represent what we see.

You are confusing math and what math was invented to describe.

There is nothing to prove that the mathematics of an alien intelligence will be the same as ours

Man discovered math. Man did not invent math. Math is universal. Same for logic, science, music, etc.

you are confusing math with the things it was invented to describe.

No. I'm not. E=mc^2 wasn't invented. It was discovered. Einstein could not make it be anything he wanted it to be like Apple could with its iPod. So E=mc^2 isn't an invention, it is a mathematical reality that describes a physical phenomenon. The physical phenomenon and the math that describes it were discovered.

The math that describes the relationship between matter and energy is a human invention.

You are confusing the math with the things it is being used to describe.

So I invented that if A=B and B=C then A=C?

Mathematics was invented to describe observed phenomenon in the natural world.

Like the path of a thrown object or the acceleration of a body due to gravity.

It is a representation of the phenomenon not the phenomenon itself.

So... if A=B and B=C then A=C was invented and not discovered?

 

[ding]

what happens when the laws of nature break down as they do in black holes?

That's not technically correct. The mathematics break down.

A distinction without a difference

I disagree. The laws of nature don't break down. Our understanding of the laws of nature is limited and breaks down. The math does not exist to properly model what happens at the singularity because our understanding of the physics is incomplete when the size of the universe is infinitesimally small.

So you said thing like math are discovered so that mathematics must exist outside the human brain now you say that math to describe what happens in black holes doesn't exist.

So which is it?

OR

Maybe the minds of human beings are incapable of the intellectual processes needed to understand what happens in the instances where math fails.

It is neither. Our understanding of the physics is limited. Because our understanding of the physics is incomplete, the equations - or math - is limited. Therefore, the equations - or math - do not presently exist to describe what happens when the field equations yield infinite densities.

The math is not failing. The math is showing the limitation or boundary of our understanding of the physics.

So now you say we have to create the math that is needed to understand these things. But earlier you said mathematics wasn't created by humans but was "discovered" because it already existed before humans did.

So which is it?

Neither because you keep misstating what I write. Try using my exact quote to make your points and you will discover your error.

You said math was discovered not created by humans.

That means mathematics exist apart from humans and the human brain.

Then you say that no math exists to describe what happens in black holes but you imply that it must exist because humans did not create mathematics but rather discovered it.

So how can you say that the math to describe black holes doesn't exist?

It does not imply that at all. The physics have not been discovered that describe what happens when Friedmann's solution to Einstein's field equations yield infinite densities. Once the physics are discovered it can be modeled using mathematical equations.

Of course it does

Either man invented the concepts of mathematics or man didn't.

You said man discovered them that means that mathematics exist whether or not humans exist.

You are all over the map. Man discovered the concepts of math. Math is not unique to man. Any intelligent being can discover the concepts of math. Mathematical truths exist independent of any creature. Mathematical truths exist in and of themselves.

Just as man did not invent that water consists of two hydrogen atoms and one oxygen atom. Man discovered that water consists of two hydrogen atoms and one oxygen atom.

So then how can you say the math to describe black holes doesn't exist?

Again... not that they don't exist but that the present equations yield infinite densities at it's boundary. You keep misstating that. But to answer your question the math hasn't been discovered yet because the physics of the boundary condition has not been discovered yet.

So now you are saying that the math does exist?

Make up your mind.

If the math does exist then we must be incapable of understanding it.

The math that describes what happens at the boundary of black holes or the beginning of the universe has not been discovered yet because the physics for those events has not been discovered yet.

So now you are saying that those things exist out there in the ether somewhere and we will eventually stumble upon them.

That is not the same thing as saying they do not exist.

See the 2 min 35 sec mark.

So he's saying that the math exists you are saying it doesn't exist.

And that is just one man's opinion anyway.

We are both saying that mathematical and scientific truths are discovered. Just like logic is discovered. No one invented that if A=B and B=C then A must equal C. Just like no one invented A^2 + B^2 = C^2 for right triangles. These truths were discovered.

But please do keep arguing against it. I can do this all day.

Logic can be subjective, like the guys who thought it was logical to crash 747s into buildings, or put explosives in their underwear.

Only you would believe that logic is subjective, taz, only you.

Muslims thought that 9/11 was logical. You lose.

That's some impressive display of logic on your part, taz.

You are just as logical as they were.

That's why logic can be subjective. You're for sure not the final arbiter of logic, that would be totally against logic.

Taz, Taz, Taz.... people are subjective. Logic is objective. You are confusing people's subjectivity for logic.

Logic can be both, as in 2+2=4, that's objective logic. Subjective logic is like someone who thinks that it's logical that they know everything. Like you.

That's a silly use of logic on your part and shows your subjectivity. I have never claimed to know everything; far from it as I will gladly admit to my ignorance on many things. What I do claim is that logic cannot be anything people want it to be. That logic is objective. And the only way logic can be subjective is from the misapplication of logic by subjective humans. Which is what you have used for every one of your examples.

Misapplication according to you. Not to them. So who gets to choose?

Reality

Then it was logical for them to do 9/11, which they said was retaliation for the US bombing Muslim countries and backing Israel. Seems logical to me too.

Any rationalization of violence as good is illogical, taz.

So if I kill someone who is trying to kill me, that’s not logically good?

what happens when the laws of nature break down as they do in black holes?

That's not technically correct. The mathematics break down.

A distinction without a difference

I disagree. The laws of nature don't break down. Our understanding of the laws of nature is limited and breaks down. The math does not exist to properly model what happens at the singularity because our understanding of the physics is incomplete when the size of the universe is infinitesimally small.

So you said thing like math are discovered so that mathematics must exist outside the human brain now you say that math to describe what happens in black holes doesn't exist.

So which is it?

OR

Maybe the minds of human beings are incapable of the intellectual processes needed to understand what happens in the instances where math fails.

It is neither. Our understanding of the physics is limited. Because our understanding of the physics is incomplete, the equations - or math - is limited. Therefore, the equations - or math - do not presently exist to describe what happens when the field equations yield infinite densities.

The math is not failing. The math is showing the limitation or boundary of our understanding of the physics.

So now you say we have to create the math that is needed to understand these things. But earlier you said mathematics wasn't created by humans but was "discovered" because it already existed before humans did.

So which is it?

Neither because you keep misstating what I write. Try using my exact quote to make your points and you will discover your error.

You said math was discovered not created by humans.

That means mathematics exist apart from humans and the human brain.

Then you say that no math exists to describe what happens in black holes but you imply that it must exist because humans did not create mathematics but rather discovered it.

So how can you say that the math to describe black holes doesn't exist?

It does not imply that at all. The physics have not been discovered that describe what happens when Friedmann's solution to Einstein's field equations yield infinite densities. Once the physics are discovered it can be modeled using mathematical equations.

Of course it does

Either man invented the concepts of mathematics or man didn't.

You said man discovered them that means that mathematics exist whether or not humans exist.

You are all over the map. Man discovered the concepts of math. Math is not unique to man. Any intelligent being can discover the concepts of math. Mathematical truths exist independent of any creature. Mathematical truths exist in and of themselves.

Just as man did not invent that water consists of two hydrogen atoms and one oxygen atom. Man discovered that water consists of two hydrogen atoms and one oxygen atom.

So then how can you say the math to describe black holes doesn't exist?

Again... not that they don't exist but that the present equations yield infinite densities at it's boundary. You keep misstating that. But to answer your question the math hasn't been discovered yet because the physics of the boundary condition has not been discovered yet.

So now you are saying that the math does exist?

Make up your mind.

If the math does exist then we must be incapable of understanding it.

The math that describes what happens at the boundary of black holes or the beginning of the universe has not been discovered yet because the physics for those events has not been discovered yet.

So now you are saying that those things exist out there in the ether somewhere and we will eventually stumble upon them.

That is not the same thing as saying they do not exist.

See the 2 min 35 sec mark.

So he's saying that the math exists you are saying it doesn't exist.

And that is just one man's opinion anyway.

We are both saying that mathematical and scientific truths are discovered. Just like logic is discovered. No one invented that if A=B and B=C then A must equal C. Just like no one invented A^2 + B^2 = C^2 for right triangles. These truths were discovered.

But please do keep arguing against it. I can do this all day.

Logic can be subjective, like the guys who thought it was logical to crash 747s into buildings, or put explosives in their underwear.

Only you would believe that logic is subjective, taz, only you.

Muslims thought that 9/11 was logical. You lose.

That's some impressive display of logic on your part, taz.

You are just as logical as they were.

That's why logic can be subjective. You're for sure not the final arbiter of logic, that would be totally against logic.

Taz, Taz, Taz.... people are subjective. Logic is objective. You are confusing people's subjectivity for logic.

Logic can be both, as in 2+2=4, that's objective logic. Subjective logic is like someone who thinks that it's logical that they know everything. Like you.

That's a silly use of logic on your part and shows your subjectivity. I have never claimed to know everything; far from it as I will gladly admit to my ignorance on many things. What I do claim is that logic cannot be anything people want it to be. That logic is objective. And the only way logic can be subjective is from the misapplication of logic by subjective humans. Which is what you have used for every one of your examples.

Misapplication according to you. Not to them. So who gets to choose?

Reality

Then it was logical for them to do 9/11, which they said was retaliation for the US bombing Muslim countries and backing Israel. Seems logical to me too.

Any rationalization of violence as good is illogical, taz.

But not all acts of violence are considered bad or immoral because we have subjectively rationalized that not all violence is "bad".

The lesser of two evils does not moralize the lesser of the two evils.

Of course it does because we do not punish one and we do punish the other therefore one is right and one is wrong.

It's OK for your government to send you to a foreign country to kill people but not OK for you to go to a foreign country and kill those same people on your own.

It's OK for the government to kill a murderer but it's not OK for a member of the victim's family to kill that same murderer.

Evil is just another subjective value judgement we make.

It's called the lesser of two evils for a reason.