Free Will?

[5stringJeff]

No time to reply to two pages worth of replies. But, Duane, here's something for you.


According to your claims about Scripture, God's will determines one's salvation. So let's see what God's will is about people's salvation:

Ezekiel 18:23: "Do I have any pleasure in the death of the wicked," declares the Lord GOD, "rather than that he should turn from his ways and live?"

Ezekiel 18:32: ""For I have no pleasure in the death of anyone who dies," declares the Lord GOD. "Therefore, repent and live."

Ezekiel 33 "Say to them, 'As I live!' declares the Lord GOD, 'I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that the wicked turn from his way and live. Turn back, turn back from your evil ways! Why then will you die, O house of Israel?'

2 Peter 3 "The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance."

1 Timothy 2:3-4: "This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth."

It is very obvious that God's will is that all people be saved. But will all people be saved?

Daniel 12:2: "Many of those who sleep in the dust of the ground will awake, these to everlasting life, but the others to disgrace and everlasting contempt.

Matthew 7:13-14: "Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it. For the gate is small and the way is narrow that leads to life, and there are few who find it."

Matthew 25:46: "These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

John 5:28-29: "Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice, and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment."

Revelation 20:15: "And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire."

It is very obvious that there are two possible eternal destinies for men: heaven (everlasting/eternal life) and hell (everlasting contempt, eternal punishment, lake of fire). It is also very obvious that there will be people in both categories. So let's review:

1. God's will is that all people be saved.

2. All people will not be saved.

3. Therefore, something besides God's will must be involved in determining one's salvation. From other scriptures that have been posted in this thread, but most specifically Revelation 3:20, it is clear that that "something" is man's choice, whether to accept God's free gift of salvation.

 

[dmp]

So let's review:

1. God's will is that all people be saved.

2. All people will not be saved.

3. Therefore, something besides God's will must be involved in determining one's salvation. From other scriptures that have been posted in this thread, but most specifically Revelation 3:20, it is clear that that "something" is man's choice, whether to accept God's free gift of salvation.

I can anticipate a reply something like this;

Right - but those who ARE saved are ONLY saved because God imposed that will upon them. God may WILL that all are saved, but he only IMPOSES his will upon those he chooses.

 

[5stringJeff]

I can anticipate a reply something like this;

Right - but those who ARE saved are ONLY saved because God imposed that will upon them. God may WILL that all are saved, but he only IMPOSES his will upon those he chooses.

Such an argument would be self-defeating.

 

[GotZoom]

I can anticipate a reply something like this;

Right - but those who ARE saved are ONLY saved because God imposed that will upon them. God may WILL that all are saved, but he only IMPOSES his will upon those he chooses.

Sounds more and more like Calvinism.

 

[dmp]

Sounds more and more like Calvinism.

...which is anti-everything I know God to be.

 

[GotZoom]

...which is anti-everything I know God to be.

You and me both.

Just not the way I was raised.

 

[GotZoom]

Someone raised you???


Where is the choice in that?

Very good...clever...lol.

My parents allowed me to make my own religious choices - as far as what Church I attended. That all started when I was about 12. They did give me morals and ethics based on their beliefs. The general 10 Commandments with their added extras. Listen to your parents, be kind to others, golden rule, etc.

The didn't not try to indoctrinate me one way or the other except that God loves me and will protect me. They also told me I had a choice to believe in God.

They also told me that if I DIDN'T believe in God, He would still love me and protect me.

It was my choice to believe in Him or not.

 

[Abbey Normal]

-cp quoted:
11 "In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will, 12 in order that we, who were the first to hope in Christ, might be for the praise of his glory"

I believe this passage directly refers to His Apostles, not all of mankind. They were the "first to hope in Christ". I can agree that the Apostles were predestined to be the first to follow Christ and to spread his word and start the earliest Christian church. I am not so sure how you extrapolate that to mean that we are all predestined to be saved- or not.

Some questions:
I think it is a comforting theological belief- at least for those of us who already believe in Christ, the "elect". What does it say to the majority of people in the world who do not believe? I suppose some of those can be predestined to be saved, but are just really slow about it? What of the rest? Is there no hope for them? Why do we bother to evangelize if it is all predestined?

 

[-Cp]

1. God's will is that all people be saved.

2. All people will not be saved.

You're summary here is not correct, and doesn't fit with the greek text properly. Let's look:

2 Peter 3 "The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance."

1 Timothy 2:3-4: "This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth."

The greek word for any is:

tiß an enclitic indefinite pronoun
Transliterated Word TDNT Entry
Tis None
Phonetic Spelling Parts of Speech
tis

Definition
a certain, a certain one

And as far as the word "All" that's the greek word of:
paß including all the forms of declension
Transliterated Word TDNT Entry
Pas 5:886,795
Phonetic Spelling Parts of Speech
pas Adjective

- the Greek word here clearly does not mean "All mankind" or "all the world":
From a <a href="http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=3956&version=nas" target=_blank">Greek Lexicon:</a>
... "the whole world has gone after him" Did all the world go afterChrist? "then went all Judea, and were baptized of him in Jordan."Was all Judea, or all Jerusalem, baptized in Jordan? "Ye are of God,little children", and the whole world lieth in the wicked one". Doesthe whole world there mean everybody? The words "world" and "all" areused in some seven or eight senses in Scripture, and it is veryrarely the "all" means all persons, taken individually. The words aregenerally used to signify that Christ has redeemed some of all sorts-- some Jews, some Gentiles, some rich, some poor, and has notrestricted His redemption to either Jew or Gentile ...

Clearly, in light of the passages I've pointed out in my last post, the word "all" in the scriptures you point out don't mean "the entire world" - they mean he's not willing the elect should perish. He foreknew, before the foundation of the world everyone who'd be predistened...

 

[GotZoom]

Sorry. I tho't I was making a funny.

Oh you did. I thought it was very funny/clever.

I just thought I would use the opportunity to elaborate some more.

No worries.

 

[-Cp]

-cp quoted:
11 "In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will, 12 in order that we, who were the first to hope in Christ, might be for the praise of his glory"

I believe this passage directly refers to His Apostles, not all of mankind. They were the "first to hope in Christ". I can agree that the Apostles were predestined to be the first to follow Christ and to spread his word and start the earliest Christian church. I am not so sure how you extrapolate that to mean that we are all predestined to be saved- or not.

This passage clearly doesn't point to the Apostles but to the children of God - the redeemed - as it was written well after the Apostletic era.

Some questions:
I think it is a comforting theological belief- at least for those of us who already believe in Christ, the "elect". What does it say to the majority of people in the world who do not believe? I suppose some of those can be predestined to be saved, but are just really slow about it? What of the rest? Is there no hope for them? Why do we bother to evangelize if it is all predestined?

We evangilze, because God still uses us to get the message out - People need to hear the Gospel - so the Spirit can manifest... "His word never returns void"....

God doesn't have a plan B for getting his Gospel out, his Plan A involves us.. Why? I don't know, you'll have to ask him when you see him someday..

 

[Abbey Normal]

-cp quoted:
11 "In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will, 12 in order that we, who were the first to hope in Christ, might be for the praise of his glory"

Abbey Normal's response:
I believe this passage directly refers to His Apostles, not all of mankind. They were the "first to hope in Christ". I can agree that the Apostles were predestined to be the first to follow Christ and to spread his word and start the earliest Christian church. I am not so sure how you extrapolate that to mean that we are all predestined to be saved- or not.


-cp:
This passage clearly doesn't point to the Apostles but to the children of God - the redeemed - as it was written well after the Apostletic era.


I'm not sure how you guage the Apostolic era, but the verse is from Paul's letter to the Ephesians in 64 AD, which I think is pretty much the Apostolic era by definition, since Paul was alive and evangelizing (along with Mark, et al) and was an Apostle. I have no exact dates for the era. One Internet search I just quickly made charts it at 6 BC - 100 AD. Generally, it seems to extend from the birth of Christ to 100 AD.

Either way, I do not see how it precludes that the verse refers specifically to Apostles and perhaps also to the early believers in Ephesus.

Btw, how do you explain Jeff's point about the "I stand at the door and knock" verse? Why would Jesus need us to invite Him in, if it is predestined?

 

[-Cp]

-cp quoted:
11 "In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will, 12 in order that we, who were the first to hope in Christ, might be for the praise of his glory"

Abbey Normal's response:
I believe this passage directly refers to His Apostles, not all of mankind. They were the "first to hope in Christ". I can agree that the Apostles were predestined to be the first to follow Christ and to spread his word and start the earliest Christian church. I am not so sure how you extrapolate that to mean that we are all predestined to be saved- or not.


-cp:
This passage clearly doesn't point to the Apostles but to the children of God - the redeemed - as it was written well after the Apostletic era.


I'm not sure how you guage the Apostolic era, but the verse is from Paul's letter to the Ephesians in 64 AD, which I think is pretty much the Apostolic era by definition, since Paul was alive and evangelizing (along with Mark, et al) and was an Apostle. I have no exact dates for the era. One Internet search I just quickly made charts it at 6 BC - 100 AD. Generally, it seems to extend from the birth of Christ to 100 AD.

Either way, I do not see how it precludes that the verse refers specifically to Apostles and perhaps also to the early believers in Ephesus.

Btw, how do you explain Jeff's point about the "I stand at the door and knock" verse? Why would Jesus need us to invite Him in, if it is predestined?

More to the point that this was a letter written to the the Ephesians, it wasn't meant for Apostles only...

 

[Abbey Normal]

11"In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will, 12in order that we, who were the first to hope in Christ, might be for the praise of his glory. 13And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession—to the praise of his glory."


Hmm. I just re-read the above verses more closely, and I am even more convinced. In Verse 11, Paul says the Apostles were predestined to be the chosen ones, to do the works they did in accordance with His will.

In Verse 13, on the other hand, he tells the Ephesians not that they were predestined, but that because they heard the gospel, they too are saved: "When you heard the word of truth", you were included inn Christ. Paul makes a distinction between the predestined Apostles, the "We" who were the first to hope in Christ, and the Ephesians who were saved only upon hearing the gospel.

Btw, I actually am open to either side of this debate, and I have not done any specific study in this area. I would guess that you have put much more thought/study into it than I have, and I respect your opinions. I guess the concept of predestination just seems too much like a foxy cosmic ploy to me, if you get my meaning. I like to think that there is hope for everyone. In the end, we can only for now see through that glass, darkly, and as you said, we'll know when we get there.

 

[5stringJeff]

The greek word for any is:

tiß an enclitic indefinite pronoun
Transliterated Word TDNT Entry
Tis None
Phonetic Spelling Parts of Speech
tis

Definition
a certain, a certain one

And as far as the word "All" that's the greek word of:
paß including all the forms of declension
Transliterated Word TDNT Entry
Pas 5:886,795
Phonetic Spelling Parts of Speech
pas Adjective

- the Greek word here clearly does not mean "All mankind" or "all the world":
From a Greek Lexicon:
... "the whole world has gone after him" Did all the world go after Christ? "then went all Judea, and were baptized of him in Jordan. "Was all Judea, or all Jerusalem, baptized in Jordan? "Ye are of God, little children", and the whole world lieth in the wicked one". Does the whole world there mean everybody? The words "world" and "all" are used in some seven or eight senses in Scripture, and it is very rarely the "all" means all persons, taken individually. The words are generally used to signify that Christ has redeemed some of all sorts-- some Jews, some Gentiles, some rich, some poor, and has not restricted His redemption to either Jew or Gentile ...

Clearly, in light of the passages I've pointed out in my last post, the word "all" in the scriptures you point out don't mean "the entire world" - they mean he's not willing the elect should perish. He foreknew, before the foundation of the world everyone who'd be predistened...

The Greek paß has the following meanings, as per your source.
1. individually
a. each, every, any, all, the whole, everyone, all things, everything
2. collectively
a. some of all types
Your blurb from the website specifically talks about the meaning of paß when connected to the word Kosmos (world). And in the first example is cites, “the whole world has gone after him,” the word paß doesn’t even appear.

Moreover, “paߔ is translated as ‘all,’ ‘all things,’ ‘every,’ or ‘everyone’ 85% of the time. Your definition, in which “all” means “some,” would mean that Christ only gave Himself as a ransom for some (1 Tim 2:6), that godliness is only profitable for some things (1 Tim 4:8), or that we should only seek after that which is good for some people (1 Thess. 5:15). It’s quite obvious, especially in the context of these two verses, that God’s will is for all (meaning ‘all’) to come to repentance and be saved.

Therefore, my logic is correct, and my conclusion is sound.

 

[dmp]

Therefore, my logic is correct, and my conclusion is sound.

I hope y'alls computers have the Greek language filter installed:

&#941;&#967;&#949;&#953; &#954;&#945;&#952;&#959;&#961;&#953;&#963;&#964;&#949;&#943;

 

[5stringJeff]

I hope y'alls computers have the Greek language filter installed:

&#941;&#967;&#949;&#953; &#954;&#945;&#952;&#959;&#961;&#953;&#963;&#964;&#949;&#943;

What's been determined?

 

[dmp]

What's been determined?

It was the closest I could find to "The proverbial smack has been laid down"

 

[-Cp]

The Greek paß has the following meanings, as per your source.
1. individually
a. each, every, any, all, the whole, everyone, all things, everything
2. collectively
a. some of all types
Your blurb from the website specifically talks about the meaning of paß when connected to the word Kosmos (world). And in the first example is cites, “the whole world has gone after him,” the word paß doesn’t even appear.

Moreover, “paߔ is translated as ‘all,’ ‘all things,’ ‘every,’ or ‘everyone’ 85% of the time. Your definition, in which “all” means “some,” would mean that Christ only gave Himself as a ransom for some (1 Tim 2:6), that godliness is only profitable for some things (1 Tim 4:8), or that we should only seek after that which is good for some people (1 Thess. 5:15). It’s quite obvious, especially in the context of these two verses, that God’s will is for all (meaning ‘all’) to come to repentance and be saved.

Therefore, my logic is correct, and my conclusion is sound.

No, it's not correct.. it's the same "all" that was used when Christ said "Go preach the Gosple unto ALL creation" - do you really think he meant for us to go preach to every single piece of creation he made? Preach to the rocks, trees and rivers? Hardly...

 

[5stringJeff]

No, it's not correct.. it's the same "all" that was used when Christ said "Go preach the Gosple unto ALL creation" - do you really think he meant for us to go preach to every single piece of creation he made? Preach to the rocks, trees and rivers? Hardly...

I find it almost Clintonian of you that you would try to define "all" as "some." But, in rebuttal, here is the same Greek word, in other contexts. Does "all" mean "some" in these examples?

Mt 6:33
"But seek first His kingdom and His righteousness; and all these things shall be added to you. – Will God only fulfill some of His promises?

Mt 11:28
"Come to Me, all who are weary and heavy-laden, and I will give you rest. – Will God only give rest to some?

Mt 14:20
and they all ate, and were satisfied. And they picked up what was left over of the broken pieces, twelve full baskets. – Did only some of the 5,000 eat to satisfaction?

Mt 28:18
And Jesus came up and spoke to them, saying, "Allauthority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. – Did Jesus only get some authority?

Mt 28:19
"Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, - Are we only to go to some nations?

Mt 28:20
teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age." - Are we only to obey some of Christ’s commands?

Ac 1:24
And they prayed, and said, "Thou, Lord, who knowest the hearts of all men, show which one of these two Thou hast chosen – Does God only know the hearts of some men?

Ac 2:4
And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit was giving them utterance. – Did the Holy Spirit only fill some of the apostles at Pentecost?

Ac 2:21
'And it shall be, that EVERYONE WHO CALLS ON THE NAME OF THE Lord shall be saved.' – Will God only save some of the people who call on Him?

Ac 2:32
"This Jesus God raised up again, to which we are all witnesses. – Were only some of the Twelve witnesses?

Ac 7:50
'Was it not My hand which made all these things?' – Did God only create some of the universe?

Ac 10:43
"Of Him all the prophets bear witness that through His name everyone who believes in Him receives forgiveness of sins." – Do only some people receive forgiveness of sin through faith in Jesus?

Ac 17:25
neither is He served by human hands, as though He needed anything, since He Himself gives to all life and breath and all things; - Does God only give life to some things, and someone else give life to other things?

Ac 17:30
"Therefore having overlooked the times of ignorance, God is now declaring to men that all every where should repent, - Does God only want some to repent?

It's very obvious that God wants ALL people to come to repentance, not just some.