God is in Control?

[-Cp]

How come it is... when good things happen to Christians they say "It's because God is In Control!" - as if he directly caused that good thing to happen.... However... when bad things happen they'd never say God directed it to happen - instead they allege that "God Allowed it to happen" ..

I'm sorry, but I don't think you can have it both ways..

Either God is in complete control of everything - good or bad - or he isn't and he's allowing things in this world to happen...

 

[Joz]

......I'm sorry, but I don't think you can have it both ways.. ..

So which way do you think it is? Is God a tyrannt or does He passively watch the world?

 

[Hobbit]

God is an active God and actively controls the world. However, God also gave us free will and there are consequences for every action, and while God sometimes intervenes on our behalf, part of free will is suffering your own consequences.

I once heard a minister talking about a horrible bus wreck he was in that put the preacher of what was then his ministry group in a month-long coma. It was a year before they were all healed up. When asked, "Why do you think God let that wreck happen?" he replies, "Because our driver fell asleep."

 

[Joz]

God is an active God and actively controls the world. However, God also gave us free will and there are consequences for every action, and while God sometimes intervenes on our behalf, part of free will is suffering your own consequences.......When asked, "Why do you think God let that wreck happen?" he replies, "Because our driver fell asleep."

And what happens when you're an innocent bystander?

 

[USViking]

So which way do you think it is? Is God a tyrannt or does He passively watch the world?

And what happens when you're an innocent bystander?

Exactly. If there is a God, He has much to answer for.

 

[Joz]

Exactly. If there is a God, He has much to answer for.

Why is it HIS fault?

 

[GotZoom]

And what happens when you're an innocent bystander?

Some people would say that it was God's choice to bring that innocent bystander to Heaven; that perhaps he wasn't such an innocent bystander in the first place.

And those same people would say that life in Heaven is much better than life on Earth so therefore, they want their time to come.

 

[USViking]

Why is it HIS fault?

Why is it His fault He created a world containing such things as smallpox bacilla, (which have been eradicated solely by human effort) just to mention one scourge of hundreds, which have killed and mutilated hundreds of millions of innocent people?

If He is omnipotent and omnicient, HOW could it NOT be His fault?

And even if He is not omnipotent and omnicient, He should have the power to do something, yet He does nothing.

 

[Joz]

Why is it His fault He created a world containing such things as smallpox bacilla, (which have been eradicated solely by human effort) just to mention one scourge of hundreds, which have killed and mutilated hundreds of millions of innocent people?

If He is omnipotent and omnicient, HOW could it NOT be His fault?

And even if He is not omnipotent and omnicient, He should have the power to do something, yet He does nothing.

Well, depends if you believe the Creation story; then the world & everything in it was perfect.
When sin entered the world EVERYTHING changed. The world was set on a particular course. One which God HAS to let play out. He made provisions by allowing His Son to attone for sin.

 

[deaddude]

Joz, how does the perfection of the world before sin fit in with the first wife, or Lilith story (I think it is in the Torah). Because Lilith was before Eve and therefore before original sin.

 

[Joz]

..... same people would say that life in Heaven is much better than life on Earth so therefore, they want their time to come.

How can it not be? Heaven is perfect.

 

[USViking]

Well, depends if you believe the Creation story; then the world & everything in it was perfect.
When sin entered the world EVERYTHING changed. The world was set on a particular course. One which God HAS to let play out. He made provisions by allowing His Son to attone for sin.

Sorry, I've been through this with other good friends, and I may as well with you.

Your argument is a dodge. If God is all-powerful He can of course do anything He wants. If He is a moral being, He would act in such a way as to eliminate human suffering, sin or no sin, and of course a infant dying of some sickness is untainted by actual sin.

 

[Hobbit]

And what happens when you're an innocent bystander?

Another part of free will. Some actions have consequences for others. As far as how harsh this world is, much of it is the consequences of sin in the world. The reason bad things seem to be spread evenly among the good and the bad is that adversity builds strength. It is through our problems that we gain strength. If nothing bad ever happened to us, we would be weak and unable to relate to those who had gone through tough times. It is said in the Bible that, "All things work together for good in those who love the Lord." In our limited scope, however, we can't always see that. Consider the following analogy:

A veterinarian finds a dog caught in a bear trap. The vet knows that what he needs to do. He needs to get the dog out of the trap, splint the leg, disinfect the wound, bandage the dog, and take the dog back to his clinic for x-rays and further treatment, possibly including a pain-killer. The dog, on the other hand, only knows that every time this vet does something, it hurts...bad. With that limited scope, the dog bites at the vet and the vet must either subdue the dog or give up and let the dog die in the trap. God is the vet and we are the dog, not knowing what the vet knows and just assuming from what we know. However, alter that story a bit. The vet is the dog's owner. The dog still only knows that what the vet is doing hurts. However, the dog knows and trusts the vet and is willing to let him work, knowing that the vet wouldn't intentionally hurt him without a good purpose, so instead of biting, the dog lays back and wimpers while the vet works. This is how Christians should be. I know this firsthand, as I lost a friend in a car wreck last fall. However, 2 people came to know Jesus and a charitable foundation was founded as direct results of this event, and I know for a fact that he went to heaven.

 

[GotZoom]

Another part of free will. Some actions have consequences for others. As far as how harsh this world is, much of it is the consequences of sin in the world. The reason bad things seem to be spread evenly among the good and the bad is that adversity builds strength. It is through our problems that we gain strength. If nothing bad ever happened to us, we would be weak and unable to relate to those who had gone through tough times. It is said in the Bible that, "All things work together for good in those who love the Lord." In our limited scope, however, we can't always see that. Consider the following analogy:

A veterinarian finds a dog caught in a bear trap. The vet knows that what he needs to do. He needs to get the dog out of the trap, splint the leg, disinfect the wound, bandage the dog, and take the dog back to his clinic for x-rays and further treatment, possibly including a pain-killer. The dog, on the other hand, only knows that every time this vet does something, it hurts...bad. With that limited scope, the dog bites at the vet and the vet must either subdue the dog or give up and let the dog die in the trap. God is the vet and we are the dog, not knowing what the vet knows and just assuming from what we know. However, alter that story a bit. The vet is the dog's owner. The dog still only knows that what the vet is doing hurts. However, the dog knows and trusts the vet and is willing to let him work, knowing that the vet wouldn't intentionally hurt him without a good purpose, so instead of biting, the dog lays back and wimpers while the vet works. This is how Christians should be. I know this firsthand, as I lost a friend in a car wreck last fall. However, 2 people came to know Jesus and a charitable foundation was founded as direct results of this event, and I know for a fact that he went to heaven.

I tried to rep you...couldn't.

Excellent analogy. People of faith accept that good and bad things will happen to good and bad people. Losing a loved one hurts - regardless of the age - but those with faith "just know" that there is a bigger, better plan.

As for babies/infants/newborns..there is something called the "age of accountability" - no need to worry about them not making it to heaven...they are there.

 

[Joz]

.........
As for babies/infants/newborns..there is something called the "age of accountability" - no need to worry about them not making it to heaven...they are there.

Only in the sense that the time in the grave is but an instant.

 

[Joz]

It is said in the Bible that, "All things work together for good in those who love the Lord." In our limited scope, however, we can't always see that....

So you're saying that God should never be questioned?

 

[-Cp]

God is an active God and actively controls the world. However, God also gave us free will and there are consequences for every action, and while God sometimes intervenes on our behalf, part of free will is suffering your own consequences.

I once heard a minister talking about a horrible bus wreck he was in that put the preacher of what was then his ministry group in a month-long coma. It was a year before they were all healed up. When asked, "Why do you think God let that wreck happen?" he replies, "Because our driver fell asleep."

So where are your biblical sources for this info?

 

[-Cp]

So which way do you think it is? Is God a tyrannt or does He passively watch the world?

I believe has passively watches the world which he set into motion at the time of Creation - and gave MANKIND control of its ultimate destiny - which we all know is sin....

Everything will ultimately work out to his will as he foreknew before the foundation of the world mankind would take.

I find it a bit contradictory how the same folks say "man has free will" - also alledge that God is in control.... If God was in control, Man would've never sinned...

The only people who ever lived - that had "true free will" were Adam and Eve... they made the choice for all of us who follow that are born into sin..

But that's for another topic, another thread...

 

[Abbey Normal]

Oooh, I love this topic.

Here is a C. S. Lewis quote on free will and its consequences that says it better than I ever could:

"There are two kinds of people: those who say to God, "Thy will be done," and those to whom God says, "All right, then, have it your way"
- C.S. Lewis

And on faith and our inability to comprehend the hows and whys of the universe, a Bible verse often associated with Lewis:

Now we see through a glass, darkly;
then we will see face to face.
Now I know in part;
then I will know fully,
even as I am fully known.

I Cor. 13:12

 

[-Cp]

For Free Will discussion, please go here:

http://www.usmessageboard.com/forums/showthread.php?t=22669