"Free Palestine

P F Tinmore, et al,

Where did you get the location of the borders. Who or what gave the Palestinians "authority over anything?"

P F Tinmore, et al,

I not even sure this is a legitimate question.

The Arab Palestinians have denied Israel the "territorial integrity" through assault, terrorism and conventional rocket fire. Israel is a member of the UN and entitled to defend itself.

You always crack me up with this one. Where is Israel's legitimate territory?
(REFERENCE)

Post #70 - No Palestinian State
Post $46 - No Palestinian State

(COMMENT)

Relative to Israel are identified in the treaties in the REFERENCE Postings. There are no real borders with respect to Israel and Palestine, as the Palestinians have not negotiated any boundaries. The closest simulated boundary are the Armistice demarcation lines.

Thus, it is the State of Palestine that has no boundaries.

Israel has boundaries by treaty.

Most Respectfully,
R
At what time and under what circumstances did Palestine's borders disappear.
When the nation of Israel made agreement with two of its neighbours Egypt and Jordan
None of them have any authority over Palestine's borders.
(COMMENT)

This is a frivolous agrument. What are "Palestine's Borders?"

Most Respectfully,
R
 
P F Tinmore,

This particular passage is from General Assembly Resolution 33/24 (1978)(again - NON-BINDING - not law) pertaining to:

  • Importance of the universal realization of the right of peoples to self-determination and of the speedy granting of independence​


    to colonial countries and peoples for the effective guarantee and observance of human rights
3. Reaffirms the inalienable right of the peoples of Namibia and Zimbabwe, of the Palestinian people and of all peoples under alien and colonial domination to self-determination, national independence, territorial integrity, and national unity and sovereignty without external interference;​

It is interesting that the Palestinians have the right to territorial integrity when you say they have no territory.

Perhaps you should dispense with the smoke and answer the question.
(COMMENT)

This passage say that all people under alien and colonial domination have the right to:
  • self-determination,
  • national independence,
  • territorial integrity, and
  • national unity and sovereignty without external interference
In 1978 --- it does not say, confer, or otherwise indicate any specific territory in which these rights might be exercised. NOR does it say that the peoples of Namibia, Zimbabwe, or Palestine have any particular outstanding claim.

If the Palestinian People were to ever get territory, then the Palestinians have the right to territorial integrity. But not for a decade --- until 1988 --- did the Palestinian people stake a claim territorially.

In 1978, the:

  • West Bank was sovereign Jordanian Territory, having been annexed by the Hashemite Kingdom, under the parliamentary process and right of self-determination. That Jordanian sovereign territory was then occupied by Israeli Forces when Arab Forces, staging for an attack, were successfully engaged.
  • The Gaza Strip was under occupied by Israeli Forces, authority taken from the administration of the Egyptian Military Governorship; the All Palestine Government having been dissolved and disbanded by the Egyptian Government in 1959.
To be forthright in this discussion, it should be acknowledged that in 1977, when UN Sub-Commission first laid-out the ground work for the resolution, the subject of self-determination was dealt with at considerable length, and expressly affirmed the character of jus cogens of the principle of the self-determination of peoples; that is the a norm --- from which no partial revocation or abolition of a law is permitted (inalienable); "respect for the principle of the equal rights of all peoples and of their right of self-determination;" and certainly not unique to Palestinians. The concept applies to self-determination for everyone --- everywhere. It implies that it is respected by international law.

So, in 1978, the Arab Palestinians of the West Bank were Jordanian Nationals; while the Arab Palestinians in the Gaza Strip were under the national umbrella of the occupation power.

In 1978, other than the Gaza Strip, there was no Palestinian Territory. But 1979, the Treaty between the Egyptian Government and Israel establish a permanent boundary between Egypt and Israel --- recognized international boundary between Egypt and the "former mandated territory of Palestine." This is important because it includes all of the Gaza Strip on the Israeli side of the border.

This raises the question as to what "territory" the Arab Palestinian might control at that time (1978) --- or what was considered as "territorial integrity" for Palestinians?

(SMOKE SCREEN)

Yes, there is a smoke screen here, but it is not from me. Pro-Palestinians claim territorial integrity, but never identify what territory that is and when they establish Arab Palestinian control (a competent government) over that territory.

When the Arab Palestinian celebrated their non-member observer State status in the United Nations (2012), it did so with the delineation that the right of the Palestinian people to self-determination and to independence in their State of Palestine on the Palestinian territory occupied since 1967; but does not stipulate what territory that is. Israel occupied Jordanian territory in 1967 and the Egyptian Governorship.

What territory do the Palestinians claimed to have controlled in 1978; or even in 1967? If you can answer that question, I can answer the question on territorial integrity.

Most Respectfully,
R
Yes, there is a smoke screen here, but it is not from me. Pro-Palestinians claim territorial integrity, but never identify what territory that is and when they establish Arab Palestinian control (a competent government) over that territory.​

As you should know "control" is not a criterion for the people to have rights. People in non self governing territories have the right to territorial integrity.

You question Palestine's territory. This 1946 survey map of Palestine clearly defines Palestine's international boundaries.

UN_Palestine_Partition_Versions_1947.jpg


These boundaries were claimed in Palestine's 1948 declaration of independence.

HAVE SOLEMNLY RESOLVED TO DECLARE PALESTINE IN ITS ENTIRETY AND WITHIN ITS BOUNDARIES AS ESTABLISHED BEFORE THE TERMINATION OF THE BRITISH MANDATE AN INDEPENDENT STATE ...

A C.1 330 of 14 October 1948

And, of course, these same international boundaries were referenced in the 1949 UN armistice agreements. So Palestine's international boundaries remained unchanged in 1949.

UN resolution 3324 of 1978 said that the Palestinians had the right to territorial integrity.

I think it is clear what territory they were talking about.
 
P F Tinmore, et al,

Nothing in this comment is credible.

These boundaries were claimed in Palestine's 1948 declaration of independence.

HAVE SOLEMNLY RESOLVED TO DECLARE PALESTINE IN ITS ENTIRETY AND WITHIN ITS BOUNDARIES AS ESTABLISHED BEFORE THE TERMINATION OF THE BRITISH MANDATE AN INDEPENDENT STATE ...

A C.1 330 of 14 October 1948

And, of course, these same international boundaries were referenced in the 1949 UN armistice agreements. So Palestine's international boundaries remained unchanged in 1949.

UN resolution 3324 of 1978 said that the Palestinians had the right to territorial integrity.

I think it is clear what territory they were talking about.
(COMMENT)

First, 1946 survey map of Palestine clearly defines Palestine's international boundaries as Palestine was define in 1946. At that time, by the Palestine Order in Council, Palestine was that territory to which the Mandate applied. It has noting to do with Palestinian territorial sovereignty or integrity.

The All-Palestine Government was established by the Arab League on 22 September 1948 during the 1948 Arab-Israeli War; not by the Arab Palestinian People.
  • The Prime Minister of the Gaza-seated administration was Ahmed Hilmi Pasha (Ottoman born in Lebanese area), and the President was Hajj Amin al-Husseini (Jerusalem born), former Chairman of the Arab Higher Committee (created by the Arab League).
  • The All-Palestine Government was under official Egyptian protection, but it had no executive role; remained under Egyptian control through the 1948-49 Arab Israeli War and in exile in Cairo, managing Gazan affairs from outside. The effective jurisdiction of the All Palestine Government was limited to the Gaza Strip subject to Egyptian Military Oversight.
  • In 1959, the All-Palestine Government was officially disbanded with some components merged into the United Arab Republic (coming under formal Egyptian military administration) who appointed Egyptian Military Governors in Gaza. The All-Palestine Government's credentials (bona fide sovereign state) were dependent on effective reliance from Egyptian military support, Egyptian political and economic power. With the disillusionment in 1959 --- there was NO ALL-PALESTINE GOVERNMENT in 1978 --- no surviving government with a claim to the entirety of the territory formerly under Mandate.
The Map you posted (Map No. 103.1 (b) February 1956 United Nations BASE MAP: Survey of Palestine, April 1946. Modified) is first generation model of the Partition Plan A/RES/181(II) --- and Annex A to resolution 181 (II) of the General Assembly, dated 29 November 1947. (It is even marked Annex A in the upper right-hand corner.) The Survey, a Survey of Palestine prepared by Government of Palestine (then under British military occupation/Mandate) for the United Nation Special Committee on Palestine (UNSCOP) in 1946, was still defined by the Palestine Order in Council: "the territories to which the Mandate for Palestine applies, hereinafter described as Palestine." Between October, 1917, and September, 1918, the whole of Palestine was occupied by the Allied Forces under General Allenby and placed temporarily under a British military administration known as the Allied Occupied Enemy Territory Administration (OETA). If you go to the Survey of Palestine prepared by Government of Palestine you will find it is all about the Mandate. It is one of the great (the best single source) documents that captures the principle concepts surrounding the Mandate Period.

"UN Resolution 3324 of 1978" was written a decade before the Palestinians declared independence.

Most Respectfully,
R
 
Documentary evidence of the massacres by surviving Jews and Christians, are you that stupid that you think there were no proofs at the time of the massacres. Much like the mass graves being found in Iraq and Nigeria at the moment that are found to contain mixed up bodies.

Please provide evidence then, that Jewish bones were included in those bone churches. Frankly - you didn't even get the country right, what makes this claim any more credible? Only one church - when I googled it - had bones from an Islamic conflict.




So Spain was not ruled by the muslims now, according to you.

Huh??? How on earth did you come up with that?

And the muslims did not massacre many Christians and Jews in Spain according to you.

Where did I say that?

And that they did their usual practice of throwing the dismembered bodies into mass graves, according to you.

Really...according to me?

Dude - we were talking about a frigging bone church and now you've suddenly exploded all over the place.

8912719_orig.jpg



Have you got it yet according to you the muslims did nothing, according to you the muslims are still doing nothing, according to you Jews were not killed at the same time as Christians.

Have you got it yet that you've exploded all over the place into stuff we never even discussed?

According to you the Jews do not have the right to a national home, according to you the arab muslims should be given Israel on a plate.

Really now....where did I say that Phoenall? :lol:

Now try looking for bone churches and see how many there are in reality, then look for muslim massacres in Spain. Or try Andalucía the Islamic name for Spain

I did. Maybe it's time you do it and try to substantiate your claims.





I have and you denied their credibility because they go against your brainwashing

Oh?

What links have you provided to show that there are multiple bone churches created from the victims of "Muslim massacres"?

Sedlec Ossuary bones of Muslims
Deir el-Zour Armenian victims of genocide. It was destroyed by IS

Skull Chapel in Czermana are victims of Islamic invasion
 
P F Tinmore, et al,

Nothing in this comment is credible.

These boundaries were claimed in Palestine's 1948 declaration of independence.

HAVE SOLEMNLY RESOLVED TO DECLARE PALESTINE IN ITS ENTIRETY AND WITHIN ITS BOUNDARIES AS ESTABLISHED BEFORE THE TERMINATION OF THE BRITISH MANDATE AN INDEPENDENT STATE ...

A C.1 330 of 14 October 1948

And, of course, these same international boundaries were referenced in the 1949 UN armistice agreements. So Palestine's international boundaries remained unchanged in 1949.

UN resolution 3324 of 1978 said that the Palestinians had the right to territorial integrity.

I think it is clear what territory they were talking about.
(COMMENT)

First, 1946 survey map of Palestine clearly defines Palestine's international boundaries as Palestine was define in 1946. At that time, by the Palestine Order in Council, Palestine was that territory to which the Mandate applied. It has noting to do with Palestinian territorial sovereignty or integrity.

The All-Palestine Government was established by the Arab League on 22 September 1948 during the 1948 Arab-Israeli War; not by the Arab Palestinian People.
  • The Prime Minister of the Gaza-seated administration was Ahmed Hilmi Pasha (Ottoman born in Lebanese area), and the President was Hajj Amin al-Husseini (Jerusalem born), former Chairman of the Arab Higher Committee (created by the Arab League).
  • The All-Palestine Government was under official Egyptian protection, but it had no executive role; remained under Egyptian control through the 1948-49 Arab Israeli War and in exile in Cairo, managing Gazan affairs from outside. The effective jurisdiction of the All Palestine Government was limited to the Gaza Strip subject to Egyptian Military Oversight.
  • In 1959, the All-Palestine Government was officially disbanded with some components merged into the United Arab Republic (coming under formal Egyptian military administration) who appointed Egyptian Military Governors in Gaza. The All-Palestine Government's credentials (bona fide sovereign state) were dependent on effective reliance from Egyptian military support, Egyptian political and economic power. With the disillusionment in 1959 --- there was NO ALL-PALESTINE GOVERNMENT in 1978 --- no surviving government with a claim to the entirety of the territory formerly under Mandate.
The Map you posted (Map No. 103.1 (b) February 1956 United Nations BASE MAP: Survey of Palestine, April 1946. Modified) is first generation model of the Partition Plan A/RES/181(II) --- and Annex A to resolution 181 (II) of the General Assembly, dated 29 November 1947. (It is even marked Annex A in the upper right-hand corner.) The Survey, a Survey of Palestine prepared by Government of Palestine (then under British military occupation/Mandate) for the United Nation Special Committee on Palestine (UNSCOP) in 1946, was still defined by the Palestine Order in Council: "the territories to which the Mandate for Palestine applies, hereinafter described as Palestine." Between October, 1917, and September, 1918, the whole of Palestine was occupied by the Allied Forces under General Allenby and placed temporarily under a British military administration known as the Allied Occupied Enemy Territory Administration (OETA). If you go to the Survey of Palestine prepared by Government of Palestine you will find it is all about the Mandate. It is one of the great (the best single source) documents that captures the principle concepts surrounding the Mandate Period.

"UN Resolution 3324 of 1978" was written a decade before the Palestinians declared independence.

Most Respectfully,
R
First, 1946 survey map of Palestine clearly defines Palestine's international boundaries as Palestine was define in 1946. At that time, by the Palestine Order in Council, Palestine was that territory to which the Mandate applied.​

Those were Palestine's international borders as defined in 1922, and valid in the 1946 map, and were still valid in the 1949 armistice agreements. Even Israel agreed to those borders in 1949.

The Mandate was a temporarily assigned administration that held Palestine in trust. It had no land or borders of its own. It is irrelevant to this discussion.
 
P F Tinmore, et al,

Nothing in this comment is credible.

These boundaries were claimed in Palestine's 1948 declaration of independence.

HAVE SOLEMNLY RESOLVED TO DECLARE PALESTINE IN ITS ENTIRETY AND WITHIN ITS BOUNDARIES AS ESTABLISHED BEFORE THE TERMINATION OF THE BRITISH MANDATE AN INDEPENDENT STATE ...

A C.1 330 of 14 October 1948

And, of course, these same international boundaries were referenced in the 1949 UN armistice agreements. So Palestine's international boundaries remained unchanged in 1949.

UN resolution 3324 of 1978 said that the Palestinians had the right to territorial integrity.

I think it is clear what territory they were talking about.
(COMMENT)

First, 1946 survey map of Palestine clearly defines Palestine's international boundaries as Palestine was define in 1946. At that time, by the Palestine Order in Council, Palestine was that territory to which the Mandate applied. It has noting to do with Palestinian territorial sovereignty or integrity.

The All-Palestine Government was established by the Arab League on 22 September 1948 during the 1948 Arab-Israeli War; not by the Arab Palestinian People.
  • The Prime Minister of the Gaza-seated administration was Ahmed Hilmi Pasha (Ottoman born in Lebanese area), and the President was Hajj Amin al-Husseini (Jerusalem born), former Chairman of the Arab Higher Committee (created by the Arab League).
  • The All-Palestine Government was under official Egyptian protection, but it had no executive role; remained under Egyptian control through the 1948-49 Arab Israeli War and in exile in Cairo, managing Gazan affairs from outside. The effective jurisdiction of the All Palestine Government was limited to the Gaza Strip subject to Egyptian Military Oversight.
  • In 1959, the All-Palestine Government was officially disbanded with some components merged into the United Arab Republic (coming under formal Egyptian military administration) who appointed Egyptian Military Governors in Gaza. The All-Palestine Government's credentials (bona fide sovereign state) were dependent on effective reliance from Egyptian military support, Egyptian political and economic power. With the disillusionment in 1959 --- there was NO ALL-PALESTINE GOVERNMENT in 1978 --- no surviving government with a claim to the entirety of the territory formerly under Mandate.
The Map you posted (Map No. 103.1 (b) February 1956 United Nations BASE MAP: Survey of Palestine, April 1946. Modified) is first generation model of the Partition Plan A/RES/181(II) --- and Annex A to resolution 181 (II) of the General Assembly, dated 29 November 1947. (It is even marked Annex A in the upper right-hand corner.) The Survey, a Survey of Palestine prepared by Government of Palestine (then under British military occupation/Mandate) for the United Nation Special Committee on Palestine (UNSCOP) in 1946, was still defined by the Palestine Order in Council: "the territories to which the Mandate for Palestine applies, hereinafter described as Palestine." Between October, 1917, and September, 1918, the whole of Palestine was occupied by the Allied Forces under General Allenby and placed temporarily under a British military administration known as the Allied Occupied Enemy Territory Administration (OETA). If you go to the Survey of Palestine prepared by Government of Palestine you will find it is all about the Mandate. It is one of the great (the best single source) documents that captures the principle concepts surrounding the Mandate Period.

"UN Resolution 3324 of 1978" was written a decade before the Palestinians declared independence.

Most Respectfully,
R
The All-Palestine Government was established by the Arab League on 22 September 1948 during the 1948 Arab-Israeli War; not by the Arab Palestinian People.​

And Israel was declared by the foreign Jewish Agency that was created in Zurich by the foreign World Zionist Organization.

Do you have a point here?
 
P F Tinmore, et al,

Nothing in this comment is credible.

These boundaries were claimed in Palestine's 1948 declaration of independence.

HAVE SOLEMNLY RESOLVED TO DECLARE PALESTINE IN ITS ENTIRETY AND WITHIN ITS BOUNDARIES AS ESTABLISHED BEFORE THE TERMINATION OF THE BRITISH MANDATE AN INDEPENDENT STATE ...

A C.1 330 of 14 October 1948

And, of course, these same international boundaries were referenced in the 1949 UN armistice agreements. So Palestine's international boundaries remained unchanged in 1949.

UN resolution 3324 of 1978 said that the Palestinians had the right to territorial integrity.

I think it is clear what territory they were talking about.
(COMMENT)

First, 1946 survey map of Palestine clearly defines Palestine's international boundaries as Palestine was define in 1946. At that time, by the Palestine Order in Council, Palestine was that territory to which the Mandate applied. It has noting to do with Palestinian territorial sovereignty or integrity.

The All-Palestine Government was established by the Arab League on 22 September 1948 during the 1948 Arab-Israeli War; not by the Arab Palestinian People.
  • The Prime Minister of the Gaza-seated administration was Ahmed Hilmi Pasha (Ottoman born in Lebanese area), and the President was Hajj Amin al-Husseini (Jerusalem born), former Chairman of the Arab Higher Committee (created by the Arab League).
  • The All-Palestine Government was under official Egyptian protection, but it had no executive role; remained under Egyptian control through the 1948-49 Arab Israeli War and in exile in Cairo, managing Gazan affairs from outside. The effective jurisdiction of the All Palestine Government was limited to the Gaza Strip subject to Egyptian Military Oversight.
  • In 1959, the All-Palestine Government was officially disbanded with some components merged into the United Arab Republic (coming under formal Egyptian military administration) who appointed Egyptian Military Governors in Gaza. The All-Palestine Government's credentials (bona fide sovereign state) were dependent on effective reliance from Egyptian military support, Egyptian political and economic power. With the disillusionment in 1959 --- there was NO ALL-PALESTINE GOVERNMENT in 1978 --- no surviving government with a claim to the entirety of the territory formerly under Mandate.
The Map you posted (Map No. 103.1 (b) February 1956 United Nations BASE MAP: Survey of Palestine, April 1946. Modified) is first generation model of the Partition Plan A/RES/181(II) --- and Annex A to resolution 181 (II) of the General Assembly, dated 29 November 1947. (It is even marked Annex A in the upper right-hand corner.) The Survey, a Survey of Palestine prepared by Government of Palestine (then under British military occupation/Mandate) for the United Nation Special Committee on Palestine (UNSCOP) in 1946, was still defined by the Palestine Order in Council: "the territories to which the Mandate for Palestine applies, hereinafter described as Palestine." Between October, 1917, and September, 1918, the whole of Palestine was occupied by the Allied Forces under General Allenby and placed temporarily under a British military administration known as the Allied Occupied Enemy Territory Administration (OETA). If you go to the Survey of Palestine prepared by Government of Palestine you will find it is all about the Mandate. It is one of the great (the best single source) documents that captures the principle concepts surrounding the Mandate Period.

"UN Resolution 3324 of 1978" was written a decade before the Palestinians declared independence.

Most Respectfully,
R
First, 1946 survey map of Palestine clearly defines Palestine's international boundaries as Palestine was define in 1946. At that time, by the Palestine Order in Council, Palestine was that territory to which the Mandate applied.​

Those were Palestine's international borders as defined in 1922, and valid in the 1946 map, and were still valid in the 1949 armistice agreements. Even Israel agreed to those borders in 1949.

The Mandate was a temporarily assigned administration that held Palestine in trust. It had no land or borders of its own. It is irrelevant to this discussion.

Israel never agreed to any Palestinian borders in 1949. Your interpretation of the armistice agreements in false.

The map you keep posting shows PROPOSED borders. Why can't you find a map that CLEARLY shows Palestine's permanent borders in a map which does NOT say partition plan???
 
P F Tinmore, et al,

Nothing in this comment is credible.

These boundaries were claimed in Palestine's 1948 declaration of independence.

HAVE SOLEMNLY RESOLVED TO DECLARE PALESTINE IN ITS ENTIRETY AND WITHIN ITS BOUNDARIES AS ESTABLISHED BEFORE THE TERMINATION OF THE BRITISH MANDATE AN INDEPENDENT STATE ...

A C.1 330 of 14 October 1948

And, of course, these same international boundaries were referenced in the 1949 UN armistice agreements. So Palestine's international boundaries remained unchanged in 1949.

UN resolution 3324 of 1978 said that the Palestinians had the right to territorial integrity.

I think it is clear what territory they were talking about.
(COMMENT)

First, 1946 survey map of Palestine clearly defines Palestine's international boundaries as Palestine was define in 1946. At that time, by the Palestine Order in Council, Palestine was that territory to which the Mandate applied. It has noting to do with Palestinian territorial sovereignty or integrity.

The All-Palestine Government was established by the Arab League on 22 September 1948 during the 1948 Arab-Israeli War; not by the Arab Palestinian People.
  • The Prime Minister of the Gaza-seated administration was Ahmed Hilmi Pasha (Ottoman born in Lebanese area), and the President was Hajj Amin al-Husseini (Jerusalem born), former Chairman of the Arab Higher Committee (created by the Arab League).
  • The All-Palestine Government was under official Egyptian protection, but it had no executive role; remained under Egyptian control through the 1948-49 Arab Israeli War and in exile in Cairo, managing Gazan affairs from outside. The effective jurisdiction of the All Palestine Government was limited to the Gaza Strip subject to Egyptian Military Oversight.
  • In 1959, the All-Palestine Government was officially disbanded with some components merged into the United Arab Republic (coming under formal Egyptian military administration) who appointed Egyptian Military Governors in Gaza. The All-Palestine Government's credentials (bona fide sovereign state) were dependent on effective reliance from Egyptian military support, Egyptian political and economic power. With the disillusionment in 1959 --- there was NO ALL-PALESTINE GOVERNMENT in 1978 --- no surviving government with a claim to the entirety of the territory formerly under Mandate.
The Map you posted (Map No. 103.1 (b) February 1956 United Nations BASE MAP: Survey of Palestine, April 1946. Modified) is first generation model of the Partition Plan A/RES/181(II) --- and Annex A to resolution 181 (II) of the General Assembly, dated 29 November 1947. (It is even marked Annex A in the upper right-hand corner.) The Survey, a Survey of Palestine prepared by Government of Palestine (then under British military occupation/Mandate) for the United Nation Special Committee on Palestine (UNSCOP) in 1946, was still defined by the Palestine Order in Council: "the territories to which the Mandate for Palestine applies, hereinafter described as Palestine." Between October, 1917, and September, 1918, the whole of Palestine was occupied by the Allied Forces under General Allenby and placed temporarily under a British military administration known as the Allied Occupied Enemy Territory Administration (OETA). If you go to the Survey of Palestine prepared by Government of Palestine you will find it is all about the Mandate. It is one of the great (the best single source) documents that captures the principle concepts surrounding the Mandate Period.

"UN Resolution 3324 of 1978" was written a decade before the Palestinians declared independence.

Most Respectfully,
R
What's funny is that he always talks about how the Partition Plan was a flop and meant nothing, yet he ALWAYS uses a partition plan map
 
P F Tinmore, et al,

Palestine (within such boundaries as may be determined by the Principal Allied Powers) is officially defined by the territory to which the Mandate applies; it was not defined by the Arab and not defined by the Ottoman.

I think I explained the process before, several times.

Those were Palestine's international borders as defined in 1922, and valid in the 1946 map, and were still valid in the 1949 armistice agreements. Even Israel agreed to those borders in 1949.

The Mandate was a temporarily assigned administration that held Palestine in trust. It had no land or borders of its own. It is irrelevant to this discussion.
(COMMENT)

The territory to which Palestine Mandate applied was NOT decided in 1922 --- thus the border you describe was not fix yet. These borders were not decided by the Arab Palestinian, or any indigenous representative. They were not national boundaries. The boundaries were not final until 1924 with the last transfer from Syria.

The Paulet–Newcombe Agreement or Paulet-Newcombe Line, also known as the Franco-British Boundary Agreements, were a sequence of agreements signed between 1920-23 between the British and French governments regarding the position and nature of the boundary between the Mandates of Palestine and Mesopotamia, attributed to Great Britain, and the Mandate of Syria and the Lebanon, attributed to France. The agreements fixed the line of the Syrian-Palestinian border (now the Syrian-Israeli border) between the Mediterranean Sea and the town of Al-Hamma. The agreement takes its name from French Lieutenant Colonel N. Paulet and British Lieutenant Colonel S. F. Newcombe, who were appointed to lead the Boundary Commission.

The boundary between the forthcoming British and French mandates was defined in broad terms in the 1920 "Franco-British Convention on Certain Points Connected with the Mandates for Syria and the Lebanon, Palestine and Mesopotamia", signed in Paris, on 23 December 1920. That agreement placed the bulk of the Golan Heights in the French sphere. The treaty also established a joint commission to settle the precise details of the border and mark it on the ground.

The commission submitted its final report on 3 February 1922, which included a number of amendments. It was approved with some caveats by the French and British governments on 7 March 1923, several months before Britain and France assumed their Mandatory responsibilities on 29 September 1923.​

"The boundary between the forthcoming British and French mandates was defined in broad terms. That agreement placed the bulk of the Golan Heights in the French sphere. The treaty also established a joint commission to settle the border and mark it on the ground. The commission submitted its final report on 3 February 1922, and it was approved with some caveats by the British and French governments on 7 March 1923, several months before Britain and France assumed their Mandatory responsibilities on 29 September 1923. In accordance with the same process, a nearby parcel of land that included the ancient site of Dan was transferred from Syria to Palestine early in 1924. In this way the Golan Heights became part of the French Mandate of Syria. When the French Mandate of Syria ended in 1944, the Golan Heights remained part of the newly independent state of Syria."

Border with Egypt

The international border between the Ottoman Empire and the British Empire was drawn in 1906. According to the personal documents of the British colonel Wilfed A. Jennings Bramley, who influenced the negotiations, the border mainly served British military interests—it furthered the Ottomans as much as possible from the Suez Canal, and gave Britain complete control over both Red Sea gulfs—Suez and Aqaba, including the Straits of Tiran. At the time, the Aqaba branch of the Hejaz railway had not been built, and the Ottomans therefore had no simple access to the Red Sea. The British were also interested in making the border as short and patrollable as possible, and did not take into account the needs of the local residents in the negotiations.

The 1949 Armistice Agreement between Israel and Egypt was ratified on February 24, 1949. The armistice line between these countries followed the international border except along the Gaza Strip, which remained under Egyptian occupation.

The Israel-Egypt Peace Treaty, signed on March 26, 1979 created an officially recognized international border along the 1906 line. A dispute arose over the marking of the border line at its southernmost point, in Taba. Taba was on the Egyptian side of the armistice line of 1949, but Israel claimed that Taba had been on the Ottoman side of a border agreed between the Ottomans and British Egypt in 1906, and that there had previously been an error in marking the line. The issue was submitted to an international commission composed of one Israeli, one Egyptian, and three outsiders. In 1988, the commission ruled in Egypt's favor, and Israel returned Taba to Egypt later that year.

Egypt withdrew any claim to the Gaza Strip. The border between Israel and the Gaza Strip is subject to further negotiations.
Border with Jordan

The Israel-Jordan Treaty of Peace was signed on October 26, 1994. The treaty resolved territorial and border issues that were ongoing since the 1948 war. The treaty specified and fully recognized the international border between Israel and Jordan. Upon its signing, the Jordan andYarmouk Rivers, the Dead Sea, the Emek Ha'arva/Wadi Araba and the Gulf of Aqaba were officially designated as the borders between Israel and Jordan, and the border between Jordan and the territory occupied by Israel in 1967. For the latter, the agreement requires that the demarcation use a different presentation, and that it carry the following disclaimer:

"This line is the administrative boundary between Jordan and the territory which came under Israeli military government control in 1967. Any treatment of this line shall be without prejudice to the status of the territory."

(See: Israel-Jordan Peace Treaty, Annex I, Israel-Jordan International Boundary Delimitation and Demarcation.[18])

In 1988, Jordan withdrew any claim to the West Bank. The border between Israel and the West Bank will be negotiated between Israel and the Palestinian Authority.​

Border with Palestine

There has been no productive negotiations with the authorities in the State of Palestine concerning the establishment of borders. The PLO-Negotiations Affairs Department sees the 1967 border (not further identified) is the internationally-recognized border between Israel and the occupied Palestinian territories.

Most Respectfully,
 
P F Tinmore, et al,

The Jewish Agency was entirely staffed by Palestinian Citizens as required by law.

P F Tinmore, et al,

Nothing in this comment is credible.

These boundaries were claimed in Palestine's 1948 declaration of independence.

HAVE SOLEMNLY RESOLVED TO DECLARE PALESTINE IN ITS ENTIRETY AND WITHIN ITS BOUNDARIES AS ESTABLISHED BEFORE THE TERMINATION OF THE BRITISH MANDATE AN INDEPENDENT STATE ...

A C.1 330 of 14 October 1948

And, of course, these same international boundaries were referenced in the 1949 UN armistice agreements. So Palestine's international boundaries remained unchanged in 1949.

UN resolution 3324 of 1978 said that the Palestinians had the right to territorial integrity.

I think it is clear what territory they were talking about.
(COMMENT)

First, 1946 survey map of Palestine clearly defines Palestine's international boundaries as Palestine was define in 1946. At that time, by the Palestine Order in Council, Palestine was that territory to which the Mandate applied. It has noting to do with Palestinian territorial sovereignty or integrity.

The All-Palestine Government was established by the Arab League on 22 September 1948 during the 1948 Arab-Israeli War; not by the Arab Palestinian People.
  • The Prime Minister of the Gaza-seated administration was Ahmed Hilmi Pasha (Ottoman born in Lebanese area), and the President was Hajj Amin al-Husseini (Jerusalem born), former Chairman of the Arab Higher Committee (created by the Arab League).
  • The All-Palestine Government was under official Egyptian protection, but it had no executive role; remained under Egyptian control through the 1948-49 Arab Israeli War and in exile in Cairo, managing Gazan affairs from outside. The effective jurisdiction of the All Palestine Government was limited to the Gaza Strip subject to Egyptian Military Oversight.
  • In 1959, the All-Palestine Government was officially disbanded with some components merged into the United Arab Republic (coming under formal Egyptian military administration) who appointed Egyptian Military Governors in Gaza. The All-Palestine Government's credentials (bona fide sovereign state) were dependent on effective reliance from Egyptian military support, Egyptian political and economic power. With the disillusionment in 1959 --- there was NO ALL-PALESTINE GOVERNMENT in 1978 --- no surviving government with a claim to the entirety of the territory formerly under Mandate.
The Map you posted (Map No. 103.1 (b) February 1956 United Nations BASE MAP: Survey of Palestine, April 1946. Modified) is first generation model of the Partition Plan A/RES/181(II) --- and Annex A to resolution 181 (II) of the General Assembly, dated 29 November 1947. (It is even marked Annex A in the upper right-hand corner.) The Survey, a Survey of Palestine prepared by Government of Palestine (then under British military occupation/Mandate) for the United Nation Special Committee on Palestine (UNSCOP) in 1946, was still defined by the Palestine Order in Council: "the territories to which the Mandate for Palestine applies, hereinafter described as Palestine." Between October, 1917, and September, 1918, the whole of Palestine was occupied by the Allied Forces under General Allenby and placed temporarily under a British military administration known as the Allied Occupied Enemy Territory Administration (OETA). If you go to the Survey of Palestine prepared by Government of Palestine you will find it is all about the Mandate. It is one of the great (the best single source) documents that captures the principle concepts surrounding the Mandate Period.

"UN Resolution 3324 of 1978" was written a decade before the Palestinians declared independence.

Most Respectfully,
R
The All-Palestine Government was established by the Arab League on 22 September 1948 during the 1948 Arab-Israeli War; not by the Arab Palestinian People.​

And Israel was declared by the foreign Jewish Agency that was created in Zurich by the foreign World Zionist Organization.

Do you have a point here?
(COMMENT)

Yes, the APG was controlled by the Arab League. The Jewish Agency (staffed by citizens), in so far as it performed in accordance with the Mandate, was controlled by the Government of Palestine (Mandatory of the UK).

The Arab Higher Committee had by 1924, declined to establish a Arab Agency, and became totally belligerent in building a nation or becoming self-governing.

Most Respectfully,
R
 
Please provide evidence then, that Jewish bones were included in those bone churches. Frankly - you didn't even get the country right, what makes this claim any more credible? Only one church - when I googled it - had bones from an Islamic conflict.




So Spain was not ruled by the muslims now, according to you.

Huh??? How on earth did you come up with that?

And the muslims did not massacre many Christians and Jews in Spain according to you.

Where did I say that?

And that they did their usual practice of throwing the dismembered bodies into mass graves, according to you.

Really...according to me?

Dude - we were talking about a frigging bone church and now you've suddenly exploded all over the place.

8912719_orig.jpg



Have you got it yet according to you the muslims did nothing, according to you the muslims are still doing nothing, according to you Jews were not killed at the same time as Christians.

Have you got it yet that you've exploded all over the place into stuff we never even discussed?

According to you the Jews do not have the right to a national home, according to you the arab muslims should be given Israel on a plate.

Really now....where did I say that Phoenall? :lol:

Now try looking for bone churches and see how many there are in reality, then look for muslim massacres in Spain. Or try Andalucía the Islamic name for Spain

I did. Maybe it's time you do it and try to substantiate your claims.





I have and you denied their credibility because they go against your brainwashing

Oh?

What links have you provided to show that there are multiple bone churches created from the victims of "Muslim massacres"?

Sedlec Ossuary bones of Muslims

Deir el-Zour Armenian victims of genocide. It was destroyed by IS

Skull Chapel in Czermana are victims of Islamic invasion

Sedlec wasn't Muslim, I think the claim that it was built of Muslim bones was a hoax designed to inflame Muslims: Sedlec Ossuary Cemetery Church of All Saints with the Ossuary

Likewise, Czermana was not victims of Islamic invasion (did Muslims invade Poland?) - according to wikipedia: The chapel was built in 1776 by the Czech local parish priest Wacław Tomaszek. It is the mass grave of people who died during the Thirty Years’ War (1618–1648), three Silesian Wars (1740–1763), as well as of people who died because of cholera epidemics, plague, syphilis and hunger.[2]

Deir el-Zour is, in a sense, and it's also a memorial and museum to a genocide that is still denied -- if I'm thinking of the same place you are? Armenian Genocide Memorial Church Der Zor - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia ISIS has destroyed so many historical and beautiful places :(
 
P F Tinmore, et al,

Palestine (within such boundaries as may be determined by the Principal Allied Powers) is officially defined by the territory to which the Mandate applies; it was not defined by the Arab and not defined by the Ottoman.

I think I explained the process before, several times.

Those were Palestine's international borders as defined in 1922, and valid in the 1946 map, and were still valid in the 1949 armistice agreements. Even Israel agreed to those borders in 1949.

The Mandate was a temporarily assigned administration that held Palestine in trust. It had no land or borders of its own. It is irrelevant to this discussion.
(COMMENT)

The territory to which Palestine Mandate applied was NOT decided in 1922 --- thus the border you describe was not fix yet. These borders were not decided by the Arab Palestinian, or any indigenous representative. They were not national boundaries. The boundaries were not final until 1924 with the last transfer from Syria.

The Paulet–Newcombe Agreement or Paulet-Newcombe Line, also known as the Franco-British Boundary Agreements, were a sequence of agreements signed between 1920-23 between the British and French governments regarding the position and nature of the boundary between the Mandates of Palestine and Mesopotamia, attributed to Great Britain, and the Mandate of Syria and the Lebanon, attributed to France. The agreements fixed the line of the Syrian-Palestinian border (now the Syrian-Israeli border) between the Mediterranean Sea and the town of Al-Hamma. The agreement takes its name from French Lieutenant Colonel N. Paulet and British Lieutenant Colonel S. F. Newcombe, who were appointed to lead the Boundary Commission.

The boundary between the forthcoming British and French mandates was defined in broad terms in the 1920 "Franco-British Convention on Certain Points Connected with the Mandates for Syria and the Lebanon, Palestine and Mesopotamia", signed in Paris, on 23 December 1920. That agreement placed the bulk of the Golan Heights in the French sphere. The treaty also established a joint commission to settle the precise details of the border and mark it on the ground.

The commission submitted its final report on 3 February 1922, which included a number of amendments. It was approved with some caveats by the French and British governments on 7 March 1923, several months before Britain and France assumed their Mandatory responsibilities on 29 September 1923.​

"The boundary between the forthcoming British and French mandates was defined in broad terms. That agreement placed the bulk of the Golan Heights in the French sphere. The treaty also established a joint commission to settle the border and mark it on the ground. The commission submitted its final report on 3 February 1922, and it was approved with some caveats by the British and French governments on 7 March 1923, several months before Britain and France assumed their Mandatory responsibilities on 29 September 1923. In accordance with the same process, a nearby parcel of land that included the ancient site of Dan was transferred from Syria to Palestine early in 1924. In this way the Golan Heights became part of the French Mandate of Syria. When the French Mandate of Syria ended in 1944, the Golan Heights remained part of the newly independent state of Syria."

Border with Egypt

The international border between the Ottoman Empire and the British Empire was drawn in 1906. According to the personal documents of the British colonel Wilfed A. Jennings Bramley, who influenced the negotiations, the border mainly served British military interests—it furthered the Ottomans as much as possible from the Suez Canal, and gave Britain complete control over both Red Sea gulfs—Suez and Aqaba, including the Straits of Tiran. At the time, the Aqaba branch of the Hejaz railway had not been built, and the Ottomans therefore had no simple access to the Red Sea. The British were also interested in making the border as short and patrollable as possible, and did not take into account the needs of the local residents in the negotiations.

The 1949 Armistice Agreement between Israel and Egypt was ratified on February 24, 1949. The armistice line between these countries followed the international border except along the Gaza Strip, which remained under Egyptian occupation.

The Israel-Egypt Peace Treaty, signed on March 26, 1979 created an officially recognized international border along the 1906 line. A dispute arose over the marking of the border line at its southernmost point, in Taba. Taba was on the Egyptian side of the armistice line of 1949, but Israel claimed that Taba had been on the Ottoman side of a border agreed between the Ottomans and British Egypt in 1906, and that there had previously been an error in marking the line. The issue was submitted to an international commission composed of one Israeli, one Egyptian, and three outsiders. In 1988, the commission ruled in Egypt's favor, and Israel returned Taba to Egypt later that year.

Egypt withdrew any claim to the Gaza Strip. The border between Israel and the Gaza Strip is subject to further negotiations.
Border with Jordan

The Israel-Jordan Treaty of Peace was signed on October 26, 1994. The treaty resolved territorial and border issues that were ongoing since the 1948 war. The treaty specified and fully recognized the international border between Israel and Jordan. Upon its signing, the Jordan andYarmouk Rivers, the Dead Sea, the Emek Ha'arva/Wadi Araba and the Gulf of Aqaba were officially designated as the borders between Israel and Jordan, and the border between Jordan and the territory occupied by Israel in 1967. For the latter, the agreement requires that the demarcation use a different presentation, and that it carry the following disclaimer:

"This line is the administrative boundary between Jordan and the territory which came under Israeli military government control in 1967. Any treatment of this line shall be without prejudice to the status of the territory."

(See: Israel-Jordan Peace Treaty, Annex I, Israel-Jordan International Boundary Delimitation and Demarcation.[18])

In 1988, Jordan withdrew any claim to the West Bank. The border between Israel and the West Bank will be negotiated between Israel and the Palestinian Authority.​

Border with Palestine

There has been no productive negotiations with the authorities in the State of Palestine concerning the establishment of borders. The PLO-Negotiations Affairs Department sees the 1967 border (not further identified) is the internationally-recognized border between Israel and the occupied Palestinian territories.

Most Respectfully,
Palestine (within such boundaries as may be determined by the Principal Allied Powers) is officially defined by the territory to which the Mandate applies; it was not defined by the Arab and not defined by the Ottoman.​

As were all of the other new states in the ME.

What is your point?
 
P F Tinmore, et al,

Palestine (within such boundaries as may be determined by the Principal Allied Powers) is officially defined by the territory to which the Mandate applies; it was not defined by the Arab and not defined by the Ottoman.

I think I explained the process before, several times.

Those were Palestine's international borders as defined in 1922, and valid in the 1946 map, and were still valid in the 1949 armistice agreements. Even Israel agreed to those borders in 1949.

The Mandate was a temporarily assigned administration that held Palestine in trust. It had no land or borders of its own. It is irrelevant to this discussion.
(COMMENT)

The territory to which Palestine Mandate applied was NOT decided in 1922 --- thus the border you describe was not fix yet. These borders were not decided by the Arab Palestinian, or any indigenous representative. They were not national boundaries. The boundaries were not final until 1924 with the last transfer from Syria.

The Paulet–Newcombe Agreement or Paulet-Newcombe Line, also known as the Franco-British Boundary Agreements, were a sequence of agreements signed between 1920-23 between the British and French governments regarding the position and nature of the boundary between the Mandates of Palestine and Mesopotamia, attributed to Great Britain, and the Mandate of Syria and the Lebanon, attributed to France. The agreements fixed the line of the Syrian-Palestinian border (now the Syrian-Israeli border) between the Mediterranean Sea and the town of Al-Hamma. The agreement takes its name from French Lieutenant Colonel N. Paulet and British Lieutenant Colonel S. F. Newcombe, who were appointed to lead the Boundary Commission.

The boundary between the forthcoming British and French mandates was defined in broad terms in the 1920 "Franco-British Convention on Certain Points Connected with the Mandates for Syria and the Lebanon, Palestine and Mesopotamia", signed in Paris, on 23 December 1920. That agreement placed the bulk of the Golan Heights in the French sphere. The treaty also established a joint commission to settle the precise details of the border and mark it on the ground.

The commission submitted its final report on 3 February 1922, which included a number of amendments. It was approved with some caveats by the French and British governments on 7 March 1923, several months before Britain and France assumed their Mandatory responsibilities on 29 September 1923.​

"The boundary between the forthcoming British and French mandates was defined in broad terms. That agreement placed the bulk of the Golan Heights in the French sphere. The treaty also established a joint commission to settle the border and mark it on the ground. The commission submitted its final report on 3 February 1922, and it was approved with some caveats by the British and French governments on 7 March 1923, several months before Britain and France assumed their Mandatory responsibilities on 29 September 1923. In accordance with the same process, a nearby parcel of land that included the ancient site of Dan was transferred from Syria to Palestine early in 1924. In this way the Golan Heights became part of the French Mandate of Syria. When the French Mandate of Syria ended in 1944, the Golan Heights remained part of the newly independent state of Syria."

Border with Egypt

The international border between the Ottoman Empire and the British Empire was drawn in 1906. According to the personal documents of the British colonel Wilfed A. Jennings Bramley, who influenced the negotiations, the border mainly served British military interests—it furthered the Ottomans as much as possible from the Suez Canal, and gave Britain complete control over both Red Sea gulfs—Suez and Aqaba, including the Straits of Tiran. At the time, the Aqaba branch of the Hejaz railway had not been built, and the Ottomans therefore had no simple access to the Red Sea. The British were also interested in making the border as short and patrollable as possible, and did not take into account the needs of the local residents in the negotiations.

The 1949 Armistice Agreement between Israel and Egypt was ratified on February 24, 1949. The armistice line between these countries followed the international border except along the Gaza Strip, which remained under Egyptian occupation.

The Israel-Egypt Peace Treaty, signed on March 26, 1979 created an officially recognized international border along the 1906 line. A dispute arose over the marking of the border line at its southernmost point, in Taba. Taba was on the Egyptian side of the armistice line of 1949, but Israel claimed that Taba had been on the Ottoman side of a border agreed between the Ottomans and British Egypt in 1906, and that there had previously been an error in marking the line. The issue was submitted to an international commission composed of one Israeli, one Egyptian, and three outsiders. In 1988, the commission ruled in Egypt's favor, and Israel returned Taba to Egypt later that year.

Egypt withdrew any claim to the Gaza Strip. The border between Israel and the Gaza Strip is subject to further negotiations.
Border with Jordan

The Israel-Jordan Treaty of Peace was signed on October 26, 1994. The treaty resolved territorial and border issues that were ongoing since the 1948 war. The treaty specified and fully recognized the international border between Israel and Jordan. Upon its signing, the Jordan andYarmouk Rivers, the Dead Sea, the Emek Ha'arva/Wadi Araba and the Gulf of Aqaba were officially designated as the borders between Israel and Jordan, and the border between Jordan and the territory occupied by Israel in 1967. For the latter, the agreement requires that the demarcation use a different presentation, and that it carry the following disclaimer:

"This line is the administrative boundary between Jordan and the territory which came under Israeli military government control in 1967. Any treatment of this line shall be without prejudice to the status of the territory."

(See: Israel-Jordan Peace Treaty, Annex I, Israel-Jordan International Boundary Delimitation and Demarcation.[18])

In 1988, Jordan withdrew any claim to the West Bank. The border between Israel and the West Bank will be negotiated between Israel and the Palestinian Authority.​

Border with Palestine

There has been no productive negotiations with the authorities in the State of Palestine concerning the establishment of borders. The PLO-Negotiations Affairs Department sees the 1967 border (not further identified) is the internationally-recognized border between Israel and the occupied Palestinian territories.

Most Respectfully,
The territory to which Palestine Mandate applied was NOT decided in 1922 --- bla, bla, bla, bla, bla, bla, bla, bla, bla, bla, bla, bla, bla, bla.

What relevance is this to Palestine's international borders on the 1946 map?

I don't see your point.
 
P F Tinmore, et al,

The Jewish Agency was entirely staffed by Palestinian Citizens as required by law.

P F Tinmore, et al,

Nothing in this comment is credible.

These boundaries were claimed in Palestine's 1948 declaration of independence.

HAVE SOLEMNLY RESOLVED TO DECLARE PALESTINE IN ITS ENTIRETY AND WITHIN ITS BOUNDARIES AS ESTABLISHED BEFORE THE TERMINATION OF THE BRITISH MANDATE AN INDEPENDENT STATE ...

A C.1 330 of 14 October 1948

And, of course, these same international boundaries were referenced in the 1949 UN armistice agreements. So Palestine's international boundaries remained unchanged in 1949.

UN resolution 3324 of 1978 said that the Palestinians had the right to territorial integrity.

I think it is clear what territory they were talking about.
(COMMENT)

First, 1946 survey map of Palestine clearly defines Palestine's international boundaries as Palestine was define in 1946. At that time, by the Palestine Order in Council, Palestine was that territory to which the Mandate applied. It has noting to do with Palestinian territorial sovereignty or integrity.

The All-Palestine Government was established by the Arab League on 22 September 1948 during the 1948 Arab-Israeli War; not by the Arab Palestinian People.
  • The Prime Minister of the Gaza-seated administration was Ahmed Hilmi Pasha (Ottoman born in Lebanese area), and the President was Hajj Amin al-Husseini (Jerusalem born), former Chairman of the Arab Higher Committee (created by the Arab League).
  • The All-Palestine Government was under official Egyptian protection, but it had no executive role; remained under Egyptian control through the 1948-49 Arab Israeli War and in exile in Cairo, managing Gazan affairs from outside. The effective jurisdiction of the All Palestine Government was limited to the Gaza Strip subject to Egyptian Military Oversight.
  • In 1959, the All-Palestine Government was officially disbanded with some components merged into the United Arab Republic (coming under formal Egyptian military administration) who appointed Egyptian Military Governors in Gaza. The All-Palestine Government's credentials (bona fide sovereign state) were dependent on effective reliance from Egyptian military support, Egyptian political and economic power. With the disillusionment in 1959 --- there was NO ALL-PALESTINE GOVERNMENT in 1978 --- no surviving government with a claim to the entirety of the territory formerly under Mandate.
The Map you posted (Map No. 103.1 (b) February 1956 United Nations BASE MAP: Survey of Palestine, April 1946. Modified) is first generation model of the Partition Plan A/RES/181(II) --- and Annex A to resolution 181 (II) of the General Assembly, dated 29 November 1947. (It is even marked Annex A in the upper right-hand corner.) The Survey, a Survey of Palestine prepared by Government of Palestine (then under British military occupation/Mandate) for the United Nation Special Committee on Palestine (UNSCOP) in 1946, was still defined by the Palestine Order in Council: "the territories to which the Mandate for Palestine applies, hereinafter described as Palestine." Between October, 1917, and September, 1918, the whole of Palestine was occupied by the Allied Forces under General Allenby and placed temporarily under a British military administration known as the Allied Occupied Enemy Territory Administration (OETA). If you go to the Survey of Palestine prepared by Government of Palestine you will find it is all about the Mandate. It is one of the great (the best single source) documents that captures the principle concepts surrounding the Mandate Period.

"UN Resolution 3324 of 1978" was written a decade before the Palestinians declared independence.

Most Respectfully,
R
The All-Palestine Government was established by the Arab League on 22 September 1948 during the 1948 Arab-Israeli War; not by the Arab Palestinian People.​

And Israel was declared by the foreign Jewish Agency that was created in Zurich by the foreign World Zionist Organization.

Do you have a point here?
(COMMENT)

Yes, the APG was controlled by the Arab League. The Jewish Agency (staffed by citizens), in so far as it performed in accordance with the Mandate, was controlled by the Government of Palestine (Mandatory of the UK).

The Arab Higher Committee had by 1924, declined to establish a Arab Agency, and became totally belligerent in building a nation or becoming self-governing.

Most Respectfully,
R
Yes, the APG was controlled by the Arab League. The Jewish Agency (staffed by citizens), in so far as it performed in accordance with the Mandate, was controlled by the Government of Palestine (Mandatory of the UK).​

The Jewish Agency was a creature of the Mandate. It was to serve as a consultant to the Mandate and serve at the Mandate's pleasure.

When the Mandate left it no longer had a legitimate function.
 
P F Tinmore, et al,

Yes, this happens with you periodically.

As were all of the other new states in the ME.

What is your point?
(COMMENT)

Between here and Posting 446, you have opened a number of issue that has propelled the discussion:
  • You always crack me up with this one. Where is Israel's legitimate territory?
  • Resolution 181 was a non binding recommendation. It has nothing to do with the creation of Israel.
  • What relevance is this to Palestine's international borders on the 1946 map?
Israel's legitimate territory:
  • First, about three-quarters of Israel's perimeter has permanent boundaries (borders) established with Egypt and Jordan. And these borders directly interface with the West Bank and the Gaza Strip.
  • The remaining quarter of the perimeter is govern by a set of Armistice Lines with Lebanon and Syria. The Armistice Lines between Israel and the two Arab countries of Syria and Lebanon, have no common segments with the 1988 State of Palestine.
  • The West Bank and the Gaza Strip have a de facto border lines with Israel using the former Armistice Lines established in 1949. But these Armistice Line have not been documented with an Armistice Agreement between Israel and the State of Palestine (West Bank + Gaza Strip); but rather the Oslo Accords through the Permanent Status of Negotiations. Permanent status negotiations will commence as soon as possible, but not later than May 4, 1996, between the Parties. It is understood that these negotiations shall cover remaining issues, including: Jerusalem, refugees, settlements, security arrangements, borders, relations and cooperation with other neighbors, and other issues of common interest.
Resolution 181 and the relationship with the creation of Israel (and Palestine for that matter):
  • Both the Declaration of Independence for the States of Israel and Palestine, cite the A/RES/181(II) as an authority.
  • A decade later, both the States of Israel and Palestine reaffirm the international legitimacy and respects General Assembly Resolution 181 (II).
  • The applicable Resolutions that admit Israel to the UN and accord to Palestine non-member observer State status in the United Nations cite General Assembly Resolution 181 (II) as an applicable reference.
I think that each of the last couple responses provides valuable insight into the issue surround the questions.

Most Respectfully,
R
 
P F Tinmore, et al,

The Map you provided does not have the boundary or borders to Palestine as you suggest Palestine to be.

What relevance is this to Palestine's international borders on the 1946 map?

I don't see your point.
(COMMENT)

The borders marked on the map are the borders to the territory covered by the Mandate for Palestine, and the Government of Palestine (that of the Mandatory, UK).

Most Respectfully,
R
 
P F Tinmore, et al,

The function of the Jewish Agency was not a matter of concern for Arabs.

[
Yes, the APG was controlled by the Arab League. The Jewish Agency (staffed by citizens), in so far as it performed in accordance with the Mandate, was controlled by the Government of Palestine (Mandatory of the UK).​

The Jewish Agency was a creature of the Mandate. It was to serve as a consultant to the Mandate and serve at the Mandate's pleasure.

When the Mandate left it no longer had a legitimate function.
(COMMENT)

The Jewish Agency was recognized and functioned as a public body under the Mandate. On the termination of the Mandate and the institution and establishment of the Jewish State of Israel, the provisional government assimilated the Jewish Agency.

Most Respectfully,
R
 
Last edited:
P F Tinmore, et al,

Palestine (within such boundaries as may be determined by the Principal Allied Powers) is officially defined by the territory to which the Mandate applies; it was not defined by the Arab and not defined by the Ottoman.

I think I explained the process before, several times.

Those were Palestine's international borders as defined in 1922, and valid in the 1946 map, and were still valid in the 1949 armistice agreements. Even Israel agreed to those borders in 1949.

The Mandate was a temporarily assigned administration that held Palestine in trust. It had no land or borders of its own. It is irrelevant to this discussion.
(COMMENT)

The territory to which Palestine Mandate applied was NOT decided in 1922 --- thus the border you describe was not fix yet. These borders were not decided by the Arab Palestinian, or any indigenous representative. They were not national boundaries. The boundaries were not final until 1924 with the last transfer from Syria.

The Paulet–Newcombe Agreement or Paulet-Newcombe Line, also known as the Franco-British Boundary Agreements, were a sequence of agreements signed between 1920-23 between the British and French governments regarding the position and nature of the boundary between the Mandates of Palestine and Mesopotamia, attributed to Great Britain, and the Mandate of Syria and the Lebanon, attributed to France. The agreements fixed the line of the Syrian-Palestinian border (now the Syrian-Israeli border) between the Mediterranean Sea and the town of Al-Hamma. The agreement takes its name from French Lieutenant Colonel N. Paulet and British Lieutenant Colonel S. F. Newcombe, who were appointed to lead the Boundary Commission.

The boundary between the forthcoming British and French mandates was defined in broad terms in the 1920 "Franco-British Convention on Certain Points Connected with the Mandates for Syria and the Lebanon, Palestine and Mesopotamia", signed in Paris, on 23 December 1920. That agreement placed the bulk of the Golan Heights in the French sphere. The treaty also established a joint commission to settle the precise details of the border and mark it on the ground.

The commission submitted its final report on 3 February 1922, which included a number of amendments. It was approved with some caveats by the French and British governments on 7 March 1923, several months before Britain and France assumed their Mandatory responsibilities on 29 September 1923.​

"The boundary between the forthcoming British and French mandates was defined in broad terms. That agreement placed the bulk of the Golan Heights in the French sphere. The treaty also established a joint commission to settle the border and mark it on the ground. The commission submitted its final report on 3 February 1922, and it was approved with some caveats by the British and French governments on 7 March 1923, several months before Britain and France assumed their Mandatory responsibilities on 29 September 1923. In accordance with the same process, a nearby parcel of land that included the ancient site of Dan was transferred from Syria to Palestine early in 1924. In this way the Golan Heights became part of the French Mandate of Syria. When the French Mandate of Syria ended in 1944, the Golan Heights remained part of the newly independent state of Syria."

Border with Egypt

The international border between the Ottoman Empire and the British Empire was drawn in 1906. According to the personal documents of the British colonel Wilfed A. Jennings Bramley, who influenced the negotiations, the border mainly served British military interests—it furthered the Ottomans as much as possible from the Suez Canal, and gave Britain complete control over both Red Sea gulfs—Suez and Aqaba, including the Straits of Tiran. At the time, the Aqaba branch of the Hejaz railway had not been built, and the Ottomans therefore had no simple access to the Red Sea. The British were also interested in making the border as short and patrollable as possible, and did not take into account the needs of the local residents in the negotiations.

The 1949 Armistice Agreement between Israel and Egypt was ratified on February 24, 1949. The armistice line between these countries followed the international border except along the Gaza Strip, which remained under Egyptian occupation.

The Israel-Egypt Peace Treaty, signed on March 26, 1979 created an officially recognized international border along the 1906 line. A dispute arose over the marking of the border line at its southernmost point, in Taba. Taba was on the Egyptian side of the armistice line of 1949, but Israel claimed that Taba had been on the Ottoman side of a border agreed between the Ottomans and British Egypt in 1906, and that there had previously been an error in marking the line. The issue was submitted to an international commission composed of one Israeli, one Egyptian, and three outsiders. In 1988, the commission ruled in Egypt's favor, and Israel returned Taba to Egypt later that year.

Egypt withdrew any claim to the Gaza Strip. The border between Israel and the Gaza Strip is subject to further negotiations.
Border with Jordan

The Israel-Jordan Treaty of Peace was signed on October 26, 1994. The treaty resolved territorial and border issues that were ongoing since the 1948 war. The treaty specified and fully recognized the international border between Israel and Jordan. Upon its signing, the Jordan andYarmouk Rivers, the Dead Sea, the Emek Ha'arva/Wadi Araba and the Gulf of Aqaba were officially designated as the borders between Israel and Jordan, and the border between Jordan and the territory occupied by Israel in 1967. For the latter, the agreement requires that the demarcation use a different presentation, and that it carry the following disclaimer:

"This line is the administrative boundary between Jordan and the territory which came under Israeli military government control in 1967. Any treatment of this line shall be without prejudice to the status of the territory."

(See: Israel-Jordan Peace Treaty, Annex I, Israel-Jordan International Boundary Delimitation and Demarcation.[18])

In 1988, Jordan withdrew any claim to the West Bank. The border between Israel and the West Bank will be negotiated between Israel and the Palestinian Authority.​

Border with Palestine

There has been no productive negotiations with the authorities in the State of Palestine concerning the establishment of borders. The PLO-Negotiations Affairs Department sees the 1967 border (not further identified) is the internationally-recognized border between Israel and the occupied Palestinian territories.

Most Respectfully,
The territory to which Palestine Mandate applied was NOT decided in 1922 --- bla, bla, bla, bla, bla, bla, bla, bla, bla, bla, bla, bla, bla, bla.

What relevance is this to Palestine's international borders on the 1946 map?

I don't see your point.
Why do yiu hate the truth so much?
 
P F Tinmore, et al,

The Map you provided does not have the boundary or borders to Palestine as you suggest Palestine to be.

What relevance is this to Palestine's international borders on the 1946 map?

I don't see your point.
(COMMENT)

The borders marked on the map are the borders to the territory covered by the Mandate for Palestine, and the Government of Palestine (that of the Mandatory, UK).

Most Respectfully,
R
OK, but:

Whereas the Principal Allied Powers have agreed, for the purpose of giving effect to the provisions of Article 22 of the Covenant of the League of Nations, to entrust to a Mandatory selected by the said Powers the administration of the territory of Palestine,...


The Mandate was not Palestine. It worked inside Palestine with no land or borders of it own.

Didn't Britain say that Palestine would continue to be a legal entity after the Mandate left.

The 1949 UN armistice recognized the continued existence of Palestine and its international boundaries.
 
So Spain was not ruled by the muslims now, according to you.

Huh??? How on earth did you come up with that?

And the muslims did not massacre many Christians and Jews in Spain according to you.

Where did I say that?

And that they did their usual practice of throwing the dismembered bodies into mass graves, according to you.

Really...according to me?

Dude - we were talking about a frigging bone church and now you've suddenly exploded all over the place.

8912719_orig.jpg



Have you got it yet according to you the muslims did nothing, according to you the muslims are still doing nothing, according to you Jews were not killed at the same time as Christians.

Have you got it yet that you've exploded all over the place into stuff we never even discussed?

According to you the Jews do not have the right to a national home, according to you the arab muslims should be given Israel on a plate.

Really now....where did I say that Phoenall? :lol:

Now try looking for bone churches and see how many there are in reality, then look for muslim massacres in Spain. Or try Andalucía the Islamic name for Spain

I did. Maybe it's time you do it and try to substantiate your claims.





I have and you denied their credibility because they go against your brainwashing

Oh?

What links have you provided to show that there are multiple bone churches created from the victims of "Muslim massacres"?

Sedlec Ossuary bones of Muslims

Deir el-Zour Armenian victims of genocide. It was destroyed by IS

Skull Chapel in Czermana are victims of Islamic invasion

Sedlec wasn't Muslim, I think the claim that it was built of Muslim bones was a hoax designed to inflame Muslims: Sedlec Ossuary Cemetery Church of All Saints with the Ossuary

Likewise, Czermana was not victims of Islamic invasion (did Muslims invade Poland?) - according to wikipedia: The chapel was built in 1776 by the Czech local parish priest Wacław Tomaszek. It is the mass grave of people who died during the Thirty Years’ War (1618–1648), three Silesian Wars (1740–1763), as well as of people who died because of cholera epidemics, plague, syphilis and hunger.[2]

Deir el-Zour is, in a sense, and it's also a memorial and museum to a genocide that is still denied -- if I'm thinking of the same place you are? Armenian Genocide Memorial Church Der Zor - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia ISIS has destroyed so many historical and beautiful places :(


~alaiwah, a pakistani wordpress site

>>In the city of Sedelik of the Czech Republic, there is an interesting church.

This church is not made of wood, nor it is made of cement, nor it is made of metal, but instead it is made of parts of Muslims.

In the year of 1218, the Pope of that time, to show pride, ordered the construction of a church bringing the bones of Muslims killed for its construction.

The order was sent to the country by bringing the bones of 40,000 Muslims.<<
 

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