"Free Palestine

[P F Tinmore]

P F Tinmore, et al,

I not even sure this is a legitimate question.

The Arab Palestinians have denied Israel the "territorial integrity" through assault, terrorism and conventional rocket fire. Israel is a member of the UN and entitled to defend itself.

You always crack me up with this one. Where is Israel's legitimate territory?

(REFERENCE)

Post #70 - No Palestinian State
Post $46 - No Palestinian State

(COMMENT)

Relative to Israel are identified in the treaties in the REFERENCE Postings. There are no real borders with respect to Israel and Palestine, as the Palestinians have not negotiated any boundaries. The closest simulated boundary are the Armistice demarcation lines.

Thus, it is the State of Palestine that has no boundaries.

Israel has boundaries by treaty.

Most Respectfully,
R

At what time and under what circumstances did Palestine's borders disappear.

 

[RoccoR]

P F Tinmore, et al,

If you discount all the General Assembly Resolutions which are non-binding, then the Palestinians are really in trouble.

P F Tinmore, et al,

If these principles do not apply to Israel, formed pursuant to the Steps Preparatory to Independence as established by the General Assembly, then they cannot be either inalienable or universal.​

​

Resolution 181 was a non binding recommendation. It has nothing to do with the creation of Israel.

(COMMENT)

Damn near all basic human rights are documented by GA Resolutions.

273 (III). Admission of Israel to membership in the United Nations
​

Having received the report of the Security Council on the application of Israel for membership in the United Nations,1/

Noting that, in the judgment of the Security Council, Israel is a peace-loving State and is able and willing to carry out the obligations contained in the Charter,

Noting that the Security Council has recommended to the General Assembly that it admit Israel to membership in the United Nations,

Noting furthermore the declaration by the State of Israel that it "unreservedly accepts the obligations of the United Nations Charter and undertakes to honour them from the day when it becomes a Member of the United Nations",2/

Recalling its resolutions of 29 November 1947 3/ and 11 December 1948 4/ and taking note of the declarations and explanationsmade by the representative of the Government of Israel 5/ before the ad hoc Political Committee in respect of the implementation of the said resolutions,

The General Assembly,

Acting in discharge of its functions under Article 4 of the Charter and rule 125 of its rules of procedure,

1. Decides that Israel is a peace-loving State which accepts the obligations contained in the Charter and is able and willing to carry out those obligations;

2. Decides to admit Israel to membership in the United Nations.

The Core International Human Rights Instruments and their monitoring bodies
There are ten core international human rights instruments. Each of these instruments (9 human rights treaties and the Optional Protocol to the CAT) has established a committee of experts to monitor implementation of the treaty provisions by its States parties. Some of the treaties are supplemented by optional protocols dealing with specific concerns.

Date
Monitoring Body
ICERD International Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Racial Discrimination
21 Dec 1965
CERD
ICCPR International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights
16 Dec 1966
CCPR
ICESCR International Covenant on Economic, Social and Cultural Rights
16 Dec 1966
CESCR
CEDAW Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Discrimination against Women
18 Dec 1979
CEDAW
CAT Convention against Torture and Other Cruel, Inhuman or Degrading Treatment or Punishment
10 Dec 1984
CAT
CRC Convention on the Rights of the Child
20 Nov 1989
CRC
ICMW International Convention on the Protection of the Rights of All Migrant Workers and Members of Their Families
18 Dec 1990
CMW
CPED International Convention for the Protection of All Persons from Enforced Disappearance
20 Dec 2006
CED
CRPD Convention on the Rights of Persons with Disabilities
13 Dec 2006
CRPD
ICESCR - OP Optional Protocol to the Covenant on Economic, Social and Cultural Rights
10 Dec 2008
CESCR
ICCPR-OP1 Optional Protocol to the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights
16 Dec 1966
CCPR
ICCPR-OP2 Second Optional Protocol to the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights, aiming at the abolition of the death penalty
15 Dec 1989
CCPR
OP-CEDAW Optional Protocol to the Convention on the Elimination of Discrimination against Women
10 Dec 1999
CEDAW
OP-CRC-AC Optional protocol to the Convention on the Rights of the Child on the involvement of children in armed conflict
25 May 2000
CRC
OP-CRC-SC Optional protocol to the Convention on the Rights of the Child on the sale of children, child prostitution and child pornography
25 May 2000
CRC
OP-CRC-IC Optional Protocol to the Convention on the Rights of the Child on a communications procedure
14 Apr 2014

CRC
OP-CAT Optional Protocol to the Convention against Torture and Other Cruel, Inhuman or Degrading Treatment or Punishment
18 Dec 2002
SPT
OP-CRPD Optional Protocol to the Convention on the Rights of Persons with Disabilities
12 Dec 2006
CRPD
​

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[montelatici]

P F Tinmore, et al,

If you discount all the General Assembly Resolutions which are non-binding, then the Palestinians are really in trouble.

P F Tinmore, et al,

If these principles do not apply to Israel, formed pursuant to the Steps Preparatory to Independence as established by the General Assembly, then they cannot be either inalienable or universal.​

​

Resolution 181 was a non binding recommendation. It has nothing to do with the creation of Israel.

(COMMENT)

Damn near all basic human rights are documented by GA Resolutions.

273 (III). Admission of Israel to membership in the United Nations
​

Having received the report of the Security Council on the application of Israel for membership in the United Nations,1/

Noting that, in the judgment of the Security Council, Israel is a peace-loving State and is able and willing to carry out the obligations contained in the Charter,

Noting that the Security Council has recommended to the General Assembly that it admit Israel to membership in the United Nations,

Noting furthermore the declaration by the State of Israel that it "unreservedly accepts the obligations of the United Nations Charter and undertakes to honour them from the day when it becomes a Member of the United Nations",2/

Recalling its resolutions of 29 November 1947 3/ and 11 December 1948 4/ and taking note of the declarations and explanationsmade by the representative of the Government of Israel 5/ before the ad hoc Political Committee in respect of the implementation of the said resolutions,

The General Assembly,

Acting in discharge of its functions under Article 4 of the Charter and rule 125 of its rules of procedure,

1. Decides that Israel is a peace-loving State which accepts the obligations contained in the Charter and is able and willing to carry out those obligations;

2. Decides to admit Israel to membership in the United Nations.

The Core International Human Rights Instruments and their monitoring bodies
There are ten core international human rights instruments. Each of these instruments (9 human rights treaties and the Optional Protocol to the CAT) has established a committee of experts to monitor implementation of the treaty provisions by its States parties. Some of the treaties are supplemented by optional protocols dealing with specific concerns.

Date
Monitoring Body
ICERD International Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Racial Discrimination
21 Dec 1965
CERD
ICCPR International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights
16 Dec 1966
CCPR
ICESCR International Covenant on Economic, Social and Cultural Rights
16 Dec 1966
CESCR
CEDAW Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Discrimination against Women
18 Dec 1979
CEDAW
CAT Convention against Torture and Other Cruel, Inhuman or Degrading Treatment or Punishment
10 Dec 1984
CAT
CRC Convention on the Rights of the Child
20 Nov 1989
CRC
ICMW International Convention on the Protection of the Rights of All Migrant Workers and Members of Their Families
18 Dec 1990
CMW
CPED International Convention for the Protection of All Persons from Enforced Disappearance
20 Dec 2006
CED
CRPD Convention on the Rights of Persons with Disabilities
13 Dec 2006
CRPD
ICESCR - OP Optional Protocol to the Covenant on Economic, Social and Cultural Rights
10 Dec 2008
CESCR
ICCPR-OP1 Optional Protocol to the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights
16 Dec 1966
CCPR
ICCPR-OP2 Second Optional Protocol to the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights, aiming at the abolition of the death penalty
15 Dec 1989
CCPR
OP-CEDAW Optional Protocol to the Convention on the Elimination of Discrimination against Women
10 Dec 1999
CEDAW
OP-CRC-AC Optional protocol to the Convention on the Rights of the Child on the involvement of children in armed conflict
25 May 2000
CRC
OP-CRC-SC Optional protocol to the Convention on the Rights of the Child on the sale of children, child prostitution and child pornography
25 May 2000
CRC
OP-CRC-IC Optional Protocol to the Convention on the Rights of the Child on a communications procedure
14 Apr 2014

CRC
OP-CAT Optional Protocol to the Convention against Torture and Other Cruel, Inhuman or Degrading Treatment or Punishment
18 Dec 2002
SPT
OP-CRPD Optional Protocol to the Convention on the Rights of Persons with Disabilities
12 Dec 2006
CRPD
​

Most Respectfully,
R

Yeah right

UN Security Council Resolution
Resolution 446 (1979)
of 22 March 1979

"1. Determines that the policy and practices of Israel in establishing settlements in the Palestinian and other Arab territories occupied since 1967 have no legal validity and constitute a serious obstruction to achieving a comprehensive, just and lasting peace in the Middle East;

2. Strongly deplores the failure of Israel to abide by Security Council resolutions 237 (1967) of 14 June 1967, 252 (1968) of 21 May 1968 and 298 (1971) of 25 September 1971 and the consensus statement by the President of the Security Council on 11 November 1976 2/ and General Assembly resolutions 2253 (ES-V) and 2254 (ES-V) of 4 and 14 July 1967, 32/5 of 28 October 1977 and 33/113 of 18 December 1978;


3. Calls once more upon Israel, as the occupying Power, to abide scrupulously by the 1949 Fourth Geneva Convention, to rescind its previous measures and to desist from taking any action which would result in changing the legal status and geographical nature and materially affecting the demographic composition of the Arab territories occupied since 1967, including Jerusalem, and, in particular, not to transfer parts of its own civilian population into the occupied Arab territories;"

 

[Challenger]

There are many? Really? Can you provide some links? I never heard of them before so had to look them up and while there are a number throughout Europe, there was only one that held bones of those from an Islamic conflict and it was Catholics. You might want to remember that THEY did not like Jews either then. I seriously doubt they would include Jewish bones. Their attitude was more likely "good riddance".

Lets see if I can make this easy enough for you to understand.

1) 5000 people hacked to death in Spain by the muslims

2) dismembered bodies thrown in a pit all jumbled up

3) nothing to distinguish the bones religion ( no dna testing and no religion written on the bones )

4) so the Christians who build the churches cant say Jew throw them back in the hole.

5) see how stupid I have just made you look, and how you slipped in some Jew hatred and Anti Semitism.

So how do YOU know there were any Jewish people present?

Documentary evidence of the massacres by surviving Jews and Christians, are you that stupid that you think there were no proofs at the time of the massacres. Much like the mass graves being found in Iraq and Nigeria at the moment that are found to contain mixed up bodies.

Please provide evidence then, that Jewish bones were included in those bone churches. Frankly - you didn't even get the country right, what makes this claim any more credible? Only one church - when I googled it - had bones from an Islamic conflict.

So Spain was not ruled by the muslims now, according to you. And the muslims did not massacre many Christians and Jews in Spain according to you. And that they did their usual practice of throwing the dismembered bodies into mass graves, according to you.
Have you got it yet according to you the muslims did nothing, according to you the muslims are still doing nothing, according to you Jews were not killed at the same time as Christians. According to you the Jews do not have the right to a national home, according to you the arab muslims should be given Israel on a plate.

Now try looking for bone churches and see how many there are in reality, then look for muslim massacres in Spain. Or try Andalucía the Islamic name for Spain

Oh good grief, do us all a favour and take your medication. Then read a decent history book. If you can't or won't read a decent history book, try reading this at least. History of the Jews in Spain - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia

 

[RoccoR]

P F Tinmore, et al,

The territory covered by the Mandate for Palestine, within such boundaries as may be determined by the Principal Allied Powers, and as defined in the Palestine Order in Council, had boundaries established. It was not a political entity obligated in any any way to the Arabs.

Palestine the nation, the state or the independent and self-governing territory was not established until 1988. The was no other territory, except that covered by the administration of the Mandate.

At what time and under what circumstances did Palestine's borders disappear.

(ANSWER)

Palestine did not have demarcation lines or borders until 1988.

(REFERENCE)

PRE-1923: THE SHAPING OF MODERN NATIONS SAID:

A detailed description of the lengthy process that ultimately led to the final determination of boundaries for the French and British mandates, which, in turn, informed the borders of modern Lebanon, Syria, Jordan, and Israel, is beyond the scope of this work, but can be found in the works of Ra'anan (1955), Sachar (1969; 1979; 1987b), Hof (1985), and Fromkin (1989). The final boundaries between the French and British mandates, which later became the borders between Israel, Lebanon, Syria, and Jordan, were worked out by an Anglo-French commission set up to trace the frontier on the spot. Their results were submitted in February 1922 and signed by the British and French governments in March 1923 (Ra'anan 1955; Hof 1985). The following outline of events leading up to the Anglo-French Convention in 1923 emphasizes only certain decisions, and is based on the works mentioned above.​

SOURCE: This is the old United Nations University website.

POSITION of the territories to which the Mandate for Palestine applies, hereinafter described as "Palestine."

Palestine lies on the western edge of the continent of Asia between latitude 30° N. and 33° N., Longitude 34° 30 E. and 35° 30' E.

On the North it is bounded by the French Mandated Territories of Syria and the Lebanon, on the East by Syria and Trans-Jordan, on the South-west by the Egyptian province of Sinai, on the South-east by the Gulf of `Aqaba and on the West by the Mediterranean. The frontier with Syria was laid down by the Anglo-French Convention of the 23rd December, 1920, and its delimitation was ratified in 1923. Briefly stated, the boundaries are as follows:--

• North.--From Ras en Naqura on the Mediterranean eastwards to a point west of Qadas, thence in a northerly direction to Metulla, thence east to a point west of Banias.
• East.--From Banias in a southerly direction east of Lake Hula to Jisr Banat Ya'pub, thence along a line east of the Jordan and the Lake of Tiberias and on to El Hamme station on the Samakh--Deraa railway line, thence along the centre of the river Yarmuq to its confluence with the Jordan, thence along the centres of the Jordan, the Dead Sea and the Wadi `Araba to a point on the Gulf of `Aqaba two miles west of the town of `Aqaba, thence along the shore of the Gulf of `Aqaba to Ras Jaba.
• South.--From Ras Jaba in a generally north-westerly direction to the junction of the Neki--`Aqaba and Gaza--`Aqaba Roads, thence to a point west-north-west of `Ain Maghara and thence to a point on the Mediterranean coast north-west of Rafa.
• West.--The Mediterranean Sea.

​

(COMMENT)

Even the ICJ Advisory Opinion General List No. 131 states that the territorial boundaries of the Mandate for Palestine were laid down by various instruments, in particular on the eastern border by a British memorandum of 16 September 1922 and an Anglo-Transjordanian Treaty of 20 February 1928. But nothing in the opinion substantiates the claim that the Arabs have something greater then the contemporary Occupied Territories.

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[Challenger]

There are many? Really? Can you provide some links? I never heard of them before so had to look them up and while there are a number throughout Europe, there was only one that held bones of those from an Islamic conflict and it was Catholics. You might want to remember that THEY did not like Jews either then. I seriously doubt they would include Jewish bones. Their attitude was more likely "good riddance".

Lets see if I can make this easy enough for you to understand.

1) 5000 people hacked to death in Spain by the muslims

2) dismembered bodies thrown in a pit all jumbled up

3) nothing to distinguish the bones religion ( no dna testing and no religion written on the bones )

4) so the Christians who build the churches cant say Jew throw them back in the hole.

5) see how stupid I have just made you look, and how you slipped in some Jew hatred and Anti Semitism.

How exactly is it anti-semitism to point out that the Catholics did not like Jews? They certainly didn't treat them well but if you call that "liking" then whatever floats your boat dude.

The Jew hatred was in your snide comment about them not including Jewish bones without thinking about how you would say that these bones are Jewish.

It's not snide at all. It's pointing out what a dumbass you being when you can't even get your facts or countries straight because you are so eager to accuse others of being "Jew haters"

Bone churches: 9 of the Strangest Bone Churches of Europe BootsnAll

Most were not the result of conflicts but ossuaries that built up over time as graves were emptied and refilled.

The church you were talking about, that you couldn't even get in the right country is Otranto: This Church Houses A Bloody History With The Bones Of A Massacre Decorating The Walls

813 Christian resisters of the Ottoman invasion were beheaded there in the 15th century.


From the article:

Bone churches by and large tend to be structures into which piles of bones have been placed. The Capela dos Ossos in the Church of St. Francis in Evora, Portugal, on the other hand, seems to be made of bones. The very walls of the chapel have bones in them, with cement holding everything together. Even the pillars supporting the ceiling have skulls running up and down them.

Built in the 16th century, the Capela dos Ossos (or Chapel of Bones) was built with the goal of pointing out how short life is. The poem at the chapel’s entrance emphasizes this, as it reads in part, “Where are you going in such a hurry, traveler? Pause … You have no greater concern than this one. … Recall how many have passed from this world, reflect on your similar end. Our bones that are here await yours
​

Jews flourished fairly well under the Ottoman's (compared with Christian Europe at the time)...and given the attitudes towards Jews in Christian Europe - it's pretty hard to believe they'd number among the martyrs in Oranto's bone church.

I can't find any other examples of bone churches that were compiled as a result of conflicts with Muslims.

Aleppo has organs incorporated into the mosque wall

Not any more, unless they're recent additions. Syria clashes destroy ancient Aleppo minaret - BBC News

 

[aris2chat]

Lets see if I can make this easy enough for you to understand.

1) 5000 people hacked to death in Spain by the muslims

2) dismembered bodies thrown in a pit all jumbled up

3) nothing to distinguish the bones religion ( no dna testing and no religion written on the bones )

4) so the Christians who build the churches cant say Jew throw them back in the hole.

5) see how stupid I have just made you look, and how you slipped in some Jew hatred and Anti Semitism.

So how do YOU know there were any Jewish people present?

Documentary evidence of the massacres by surviving Jews and Christians, are you that stupid that you think there were no proofs at the time of the massacres. Much like the mass graves being found in Iraq and Nigeria at the moment that are found to contain mixed up bodies.

Please provide evidence then, that Jewish bones were included in those bone churches. Frankly - you didn't even get the country right, what makes this claim any more credible? Only one church - when I googled it - had bones from an Islamic conflict.

So Spain was not ruled by the muslims now, according to you. And the muslims did not massacre many Christians and Jews in Spain according to you. And that they did their usual practice of throwing the dismembered bodies into mass graves, according to you.
Have you got it yet according to you the muslims did nothing, according to you the muslims are still doing nothing, according to you Jews were not killed at the same time as Christians. According to you the Jews do not have the right to a national home, according to you the arab muslims should be given Israel on a plate.

Now try looking for bone churches and see how many there are in reality, then look for muslim massacres in Spain. Or try Andalucía the Islamic name for Spain

Oh good grief, do us all a favour and take your medication. Then read a decent history book. If you can't or won't read a decent history book, try reading this at least. History of the Jews in Spain - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia

The persecution and massacres of the jews? The forced conversion? Hundreds of thousand killed or forced to leave?

 

[RoccoR]

montelatici, et al,

What rights does UNSC Resolution 446 confer?

Yeah right

UN Security Council Resolution
Resolution 446 (1979)
of 22 March 1979

"1. Determines that the policy and practices of Israel in establishing settlements in the Palestinian and other Arab territories occupied since 1967 have no legal validity and constitute a serious obstruction to achieving a comprehensive, just and lasting peace in the Middle East;

2. Strongly deplores the failure of Israel to abide by Security Council resolutions 237 (1967) of 14 June 1967, 252 (1968) of 21 May 1968 and 298 (1971) of 25 September 1971 and the consensus statement by the President of the Security Council on 11 November 1976 2/ and General Assembly resolutions 2253 (ES-V) and 2254 (ES-V) of 4 and 14 July 1967, 32/5 of 28 October 1977 and 33/113 of 18 December 1978;

3. Calls once more upon Israel, as the occupying Power, to abide scrupulously by the 1949 Fourth Geneva Convention, to rescind its previous measures and to desist from taking any action which would result in changing the legal status and geographical nature and materially affecting the demographic composition of the Arab territories occupied since 1967, including Jerusalem, and, in particular, not to transfer parts of its own civilian population into the occupied Arab territories;"

(COMMENT)

All this says, in pre-Oslo Language, is that the GCIV is in play. It doesn't yet recognize the agreed upon Israeli Authority in Area "C"; as Oslo II has yet to come.

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[aris2chat]

Lets see if I can make this easy enough for you to understand.

1) 5000 people hacked to death in Spain by the muslims

2) dismembered bodies thrown in a pit all jumbled up

3) nothing to distinguish the bones religion ( no dna testing and no religion written on the bones )

4) so the Christians who build the churches cant say Jew throw them back in the hole.

5) see how stupid I have just made you look, and how you slipped in some Jew hatred and Anti Semitism.

How exactly is it anti-semitism to point out that the Catholics did not like Jews? They certainly didn't treat them well but if you call that "liking" then whatever floats your boat dude.

The Jew hatred was in your snide comment about them not including Jewish bones without thinking about how you would say that these bones are Jewish.

It's not snide at all. It's pointing out what a dumbass you being when you can't even get your facts or countries straight because you are so eager to accuse others of being "Jew haters"

Bone churches: 9 of the Strangest Bone Churches of Europe BootsnAll

Most were not the result of conflicts but ossuaries that built up over time as graves were emptied and refilled.

The church you were talking about, that you couldn't even get in the right country is Otranto: This Church Houses A Bloody History With The Bones Of A Massacre Decorating The Walls

813 Christian resisters of the Ottoman invasion were beheaded there in the 15th century.


From the article:

Bone churches by and large tend to be structures into which piles of bones have been placed. The Capela dos Ossos in the Church of St. Francis in Evora, Portugal, on the other hand, seems to be made of bones. The very walls of the chapel have bones in them, with cement holding everything together. Even the pillars supporting the ceiling have skulls running up and down them.

Built in the 16th century, the Capela dos Ossos (or Chapel of Bones) was built with the goal of pointing out how short life is. The poem at the chapel’s entrance emphasizes this, as it reads in part, “Where are you going in such a hurry, traveler? Pause … You have no greater concern than this one. … Recall how many have passed from this world, reflect on your similar end. Our bones that are here await yours
​

Jews flourished fairly well under the Ottoman's (compared with Christian Europe at the time)...and given the attitudes towards Jews in Christian Europe - it's pretty hard to believe they'd number among the martyrs in Oranto's bone church.

I can't find any other examples of bone churches that were compiled as a result of conflicts with Muslims.

Aleppo has organs incorporated into the mosque wall

Not any more, unless they're recent additions. Syria clashes destroy ancient Aleppo minaret - BBC News

You are aware there are around a hundred mosques in Aleppo and minarets are not part of any interior walls or mosque itself.

 

[P F Tinmore]

P F Tinmore, et al,

The territory covered by the Mandate for Palestine, within such boundaries as may be determined by the Principal Allied Powers, and as defined in the Palestine Order in Council, had boundaries established. It was not a political entity obligated in any any way to the Arabs.

Palestine the nation, the state or the independent and self-governing territory was not established until 1988. The was no other territory, except that covered by the administration of the Mandate.

At what time and under what circumstances did Palestine's borders disappear.

(ANSWER)

Palestine did not have demarcation lines or borders until 1988.

(REFERENCE)

PRE-1923: THE SHAPING OF MODERN NATIONS SAID:

A detailed description of the lengthy process that ultimately led to the final determination of boundaries for the French and British mandates, which, in turn, informed the borders of modern Lebanon, Syria, Jordan, and Israel, is beyond the scope of this work, but can be found in the works of Ra'anan (1955), Sachar (1969; 1979; 1987b), Hof (1985), and Fromkin (1989). The final boundaries between the French and British mandates, which later became the borders between Israel, Lebanon, Syria, and Jordan, were worked out by an Anglo-French commission set up to trace the frontier on the spot. Their results were submitted in February 1922 and signed by the British and French governments in March 1923 (Ra'anan 1955; Hof 1985). The following outline of events leading up to the Anglo-French Convention in 1923 emphasizes only certain decisions, and is based on the works mentioned above.​

SOURCE: This is the old United Nations University website.

POSITION of the territories to which the Mandate for Palestine applies, hereinafter described as "Palestine."

Palestine lies on the western edge of the continent of Asia between latitude 30° N. and 33° N., Longitude 34° 30 E. and 35° 30' E.

On the North it is bounded by the French Mandated Territories of Syria and the Lebanon, on the East by Syria and Trans-Jordan, on the South-west by the Egyptian province of Sinai, on the South-east by the Gulf of `Aqaba and on the West by the Mediterranean. The frontier with Syria was laid down by the Anglo-French Convention of the 23rd December, 1920, and its delimitation was ratified in 1923. Briefly stated, the boundaries are as follows:--

• 
  
  
  • North.--From Ras en Naqura on the Mediterranean eastwards to a point west of Qadas, thence in a northerly direction to Metulla, thence east to a point west of Banias.
  • East.--From Banias in a southerly direction east of Lake Hula to Jisr Banat Ya'pub, thence along a line east of the Jordan and the Lake of Tiberias and on to El Hamme station on the Samakh--Deraa railway line, thence along the centre of the river Yarmuq to its confluence with the Jordan, thence along the centres of the Jordan, the Dead Sea and the Wadi `Araba to a point on the Gulf of `Aqaba two miles west of the town of `Aqaba, thence along the shore of the Gulf of `Aqaba to Ras Jaba.
  • South.--From Ras Jaba in a generally north-westerly direction to the junction of the Neki--`Aqaba and Gaza--`Aqaba Roads, thence to a point west-north-west of `Ain Maghara and thence to a point on the Mediterranean coast north-west of Rafa.
  • West.--The Mediterranean Sea.

(COMMENT)

Even the ICJ Advisory Opinion General List No. 131 states that the territorial boundaries of the Mandate for Palestine were laid down by various instruments, in particular on the eastern border by a British memorandum of 16 September 1922 and an Anglo-Transjordanian Treaty of 20 February 1928. But nothing in the opinion substantiates the claim that the Arabs have something greater then the contemporary Occupied Territories.

Most Respectfully,
R

3. Reaffirms the inalienable right of the peoples of Namibia and Zimbabwe, of the Palestinian people and of all peoples under alien and colonial domination to self-determination, national independence, territorial integrity, and national unity and sovereignty without external interference;​

It is interesting that the Palestinians have the right to territorial integrity when you say they have no territory.

Perhaps you should dispense with the smoke and answer the question.

 

[Phoenall]

P F Tinmore, et al,

If this is all you found to place an objection with, we must be close to an agreement.

In point of fact, other than Article 2(4) of the UN Charter, there is not one single international law that supports specifically “unilateral secessions.”

This does not apply to the Palestinians at all. This only applies to groups of people wanting to break away from a state.

(REFERENCE)

While that is the more narrow view of "secession," the real meaning is much broader: Secession (derived from the Latin term secessio) is the act of withdrawing from an organization, union, military alliance or especially a political entity. Threats of secession can also be a strategy for achieving more limited goals.

(COMMENT)

I tend to think that the three principles the Palestinians have latched onto (outside the use of force) are much to do about nothing, in terms of applicability:

• The right to self determination without external interference.
• The right to independence and sovereignty.
• The right to territorial integrity.

The reason that the Arab Palestinians are subject to occupation and security containment is because they pose a threat to Israel:

• The Arab Palestinians have denied Israel the "territorial integrity" through assault, terrorism and conventional rocket fire. Israel is a member of the UN and entitled to defend itself.
• The Arab Palestinian will never recognize the validity of the partition plan adopted by the General Assembly; and consider that any attempt by the Jewish people to establish a Jewish state in Arab territory (the territory to which the British Mandate formerly applied) as an act of aggression. The further denies the right to self determination as an applicable concept. And it denies the State of Israel the right to independence and sovereignty.
• The Arab Palestinian sees Palestine as Arab Territory from the river to the sea, and from north to south, is a land of the Palestinian people and its homeland and its legitimate right, and do not recognize the legitimacy of "Israel" in any part of Palestine. This nullifies the right to territorial integrity.

If these principles do not apply to Israel, formed pursuant to the Steps Preparatory to Independence as established by the General Assembly, then they cannot be either inalienable or universal.

Excerpts from the Churchill White Paper of 1922:

• Further, it is contemplated that the status of all citizens of Palestine in the eyes of the law shall be Palestinian, and it has never been intended that they, or any section of them, should possess any other juridical status. So far as the Jewish population of Palestine are concerned it appears that some among them are apprehensive that His Majesty's Government may depart from the policy embodied in the Declaration of 1917. It is necessary, therefore, once more to affirm that these fears are unfounded, and that that Declaration, re affirmed by the Conference of the Principle Allied Powers at San Remo and again in the Treaty of Sevres, is not susceptible of change.

• That is the reason why it is necessary that the existence of a Jewish National Home in Palestine should be internationally guaranteed, and that it should be formally recognized to rest upon ancient historic connection.

---
There is no reasonable expectation that the Arab Palestinian, given a relaxed security environment, will not rearm and reinitiate an insurgency and terrorist campaign against Israel.

Most Respectfully,
R

If these principles do not apply to Israel, formed pursuant to the Steps Preparatory to Independence as established by the General Assembly, then they cannot be either inalienable or universal.​

Resolution 181 was a non binding recommendation. It has nothing to do with the creation of Israel.

That is right it was the Mandate for Palestine that set in motion the creation of Israel. It was also the same mandate system that set in motion the creation of Jordan, Syria, Iraq and iran.

 

[Phoenall]

How is it a duck I have given you the link many times so it should be easy enough to find. The mandate for Palestine contains the details so why don't you look.

Because your link does not say what you said.

PROOF ? ? ? ? ?

That's all I ask. Quote the passage that says what you say.

How many more times will you play this stupid game, I have given you the link now read it.

As long as you keep ducking.

You are the one ducking because you ignore links already posted, ones you never reply to because you know they are true

Or try Andalucía the Islamic name for Spain

Just a minor point Phoney but the Islamic name, Al-Andalus covered the Iberian peninsula and a bit of France for a short while, NOT just Spain.

Correct but it was mostly Spain, just as Palestine is mostly Jordan 78% to be precise.

 

[Phoenall]

Lets see if I can make this easy enough for you to understand.

1) 5000 people hacked to death in Spain by the muslims

2) dismembered bodies thrown in a pit all jumbled up

3) nothing to distinguish the bones religion ( no dna testing and no religion written on the bones )

4) so the Christians who build the churches cant say Jew throw them back in the hole.

5) see how stupid I have just made you look, and how you slipped in some Jew hatred and Anti Semitism.

So how do YOU know there were any Jewish people present?

Documentary evidence of the massacres by surviving Jews and Christians, are you that stupid that you think there were no proofs at the time of the massacres. Much like the mass graves being found in Iraq and Nigeria at the moment that are found to contain mixed up bodies.

Please provide evidence then, that Jewish bones were included in those bone churches. Frankly - you didn't even get the country right, what makes this claim any more credible? Only one church - when I googled it - had bones from an Islamic conflict.

So Spain was not ruled by the muslims now, according to you.

Huh??? How on earth did you come up with that?

And the muslims did not massacre many Christians and Jews in Spain according to you.

Where did I say that?

And that they did their usual practice of throwing the dismembered bodies into mass graves, according to you.

Really...according to me?

Dude - we were talking about a frigging bone church and now you've suddenly exploded all over the place.

Have you got it yet according to you the muslims did nothing, according to you the muslims are still doing nothing, according to you Jews were not killed at the same time as Christians.

Have you got it yet that you've exploded all over the place into stuff we never even discussed?

According to you the Jews do not have the right to a national home, according to you the arab muslims should be given Israel on a plate.

Really now....where did I say that Phoenall?

Now try looking for bone churches and see how many there are in reality, then look for muslim massacres in Spain. Or try Andalucía the Islamic name for Spain

I did. Maybe it's time you do it and try to substantiate your claims.

I have and you denied their credibility because they go against your brainwashing

 

[Phoenall]

P F Tinmore, et al,

I not even sure this is a legitimate question.

The Arab Palestinians have denied Israel the "territorial integrity" through assault, terrorism and conventional rocket fire. Israel is a member of the UN and entitled to defend itself.

You always crack me up with this one. Where is Israel's legitimate territory?

(REFERENCE)

Post #70 - No Palestinian State
Post $46 - No Palestinian State

(COMMENT)

Relative to Israel are identified in the treaties in the REFERENCE Postings. There are no real borders with respect to Israel and Palestine, as the Palestinians have not negotiated any boundaries. The closest simulated boundary are the Armistice demarcation lines.

Thus, it is the State of Palestine that has no boundaries.

Israel has boundaries by treaty.

Most Respectfully,
R

At what time and under what circumstances did Palestine's borders disappear.

When the nation of Israel made agreement with two of its neighbours Egypt and Jordan

 

[Phoenall]

P F Tinmore, et al,

If you discount all the General Assembly Resolutions which are non-binding, then the Palestinians are really in trouble.

P F Tinmore, et al,

If these principles do not apply to Israel, formed pursuant to the Steps Preparatory to Independence as established by the General Assembly, then they cannot be either inalienable or universal.​

​

Resolution 181 was a non binding recommendation. It has nothing to do with the creation of Israel.

(COMMENT)

Damn near all basic human rights are documented by GA Resolutions.

273 (III). Admission of Israel to membership in the United Nations
​

Having received the report of the Security Council on the application of Israel for membership in the United Nations,1/

Noting that, in the judgment of the Security Council, Israel is a peace-loving State and is able and willing to carry out the obligations contained in the Charter,

Noting that the Security Council has recommended to the General Assembly that it admit Israel to membership in the United Nations,

Noting furthermore the declaration by the State of Israel that it "unreservedly accepts the obligations of the United Nations Charter and undertakes to honour them from the day when it becomes a Member of the United Nations",2/

Recalling its resolutions of 29 November 1947 3/ and 11 December 1948 4/ and taking note of the declarations and explanationsmade by the representative of the Government of Israel 5/ before the ad hoc Political Committee in respect of the implementation of the said resolutions,

The General Assembly,

Acting in discharge of its functions under Article 4 of the Charter and rule 125 of its rules of procedure,

1. Decides that Israel is a peace-loving State which accepts the obligations contained in the Charter and is able and willing to carry out those obligations;

2. Decides to admit Israel to membership in the United Nations.

The Core International Human Rights Instruments and their monitoring bodies
There are ten core international human rights instruments. Each of these instruments (9 human rights treaties and the Optional Protocol to the CAT) has established a committee of experts to monitor implementation of the treaty provisions by its States parties. Some of the treaties are supplemented by optional protocols dealing with specific concerns.

Date
Monitoring Body
ICERD International Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Racial Discrimination
21 Dec 1965
CERD
ICCPR International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights
16 Dec 1966
CCPR
ICESCR International Covenant on Economic, Social and Cultural Rights
16 Dec 1966
CESCR
CEDAW Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Discrimination against Women
18 Dec 1979
CEDAW
CAT Convention against Torture and Other Cruel, Inhuman or Degrading Treatment or Punishment
10 Dec 1984
CAT
CRC Convention on the Rights of the Child
20 Nov 1989
CRC
ICMW International Convention on the Protection of the Rights of All Migrant Workers and Members of Their Families
18 Dec 1990
CMW
CPED International Convention for the Protection of All Persons from Enforced Disappearance
20 Dec 2006
CED
CRPD Convention on the Rights of Persons with Disabilities
13 Dec 2006
CRPD
ICESCR - OP Optional Protocol to the Covenant on Economic, Social and Cultural Rights
10 Dec 2008
CESCR
ICCPR-OP1 Optional Protocol to the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights
16 Dec 1966
CCPR
ICCPR-OP2 Second Optional Protocol to the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights, aiming at the abolition of the death penalty
15 Dec 1989
CCPR
OP-CEDAW Optional Protocol to the Convention on the Elimination of Discrimination against Women
10 Dec 1999
CEDAW
OP-CRC-AC Optional protocol to the Convention on the Rights of the Child on the involvement of children in armed conflict
25 May 2000
CRC
OP-CRC-SC Optional protocol to the Convention on the Rights of the Child on the sale of children, child prostitution and child pornography
25 May 2000
CRC
OP-CRC-IC Optional Protocol to the Convention on the Rights of the Child on a communications procedure
14 Apr 2014

CRC
OP-CAT Optional Protocol to the Convention against Torture and Other Cruel, Inhuman or Degrading Treatment or Punishment
18 Dec 2002
SPT
OP-CRPD Optional Protocol to the Convention on the Rights of Persons with Disabilities
12 Dec 2006
CRPD
​

Most Respectfully,
R

Yeah right

UN Security Council Resolution
Resolution 446 (1979)
of 22 March 1979

"1. Determines that the policy and practices of Israel in establishing settlements in the Palestinian and other Arab territories occupied since 1967 have no legal validity and constitute a serious obstruction to achieving a comprehensive, just and lasting peace in the Middle East;

2. Strongly deplores the failure of Israel to abide by Security Council resolutions 237 (1967) of 14 June 1967, 252 (1968) of 21 May 1968 and 298 (1971) of 25 September 1971 and the consensus statement by the President of the Security Council on 11 November 1976 2/ and General Assembly resolutions 2253 (ES-V) and 2254 (ES-V) of 4 and 14 July 1967, 32/5 of 28 October 1977 and 33/113 of 18 December 1978;


3. Calls once more upon Israel, as the occupying Power, to abide scrupulously by the 1949 Fourth Geneva Convention, to rescind its previous measures and to desist from taking any action which would result in changing the legal status and geographical nature and materially affecting the demographic composition of the Arab territories occupied since 1967, including Jerusalem, and, in particular, not to transfer parts of its own civilian population into the occupied Arab territories;"

And just where does it say or else we will arrest you for breach of these laws ?

The same UN has called upon hamas and fatah to stop all violence and terrorism and to negotiate peace with their neighbours and mutual agreed borders.

 

[Phoenall]

P F Tinmore, et al,

The territory covered by the Mandate for Palestine, within such boundaries as may be determined by the Principal Allied Powers, and as defined in the Palestine Order in Council, had boundaries established. It was not a political entity obligated in any any way to the Arabs.

Palestine the nation, the state or the independent and self-governing territory was not established until 1988. The was no other territory, except that covered by the administration of the Mandate.

At what time and under what circumstances did Palestine's borders disappear.

(ANSWER)

Palestine did not have demarcation lines or borders until 1988.

(REFERENCE)

PRE-1923: THE SHAPING OF MODERN NATIONS SAID:

A detailed description of the lengthy process that ultimately led to the final determination of boundaries for the French and British mandates, which, in turn, informed the borders of modern Lebanon, Syria, Jordan, and Israel, is beyond the scope of this work, but can be found in the works of Ra'anan (1955), Sachar (1969; 1979; 1987b), Hof (1985), and Fromkin (1989). The final boundaries between the French and British mandates, which later became the borders between Israel, Lebanon, Syria, and Jordan, were worked out by an Anglo-French commission set up to trace the frontier on the spot. Their results were submitted in February 1922 and signed by the British and French governments in March 1923 (Ra'anan 1955; Hof 1985). The following outline of events leading up to the Anglo-French Convention in 1923 emphasizes only certain decisions, and is based on the works mentioned above.​

SOURCE: This is the old United Nations University website.

POSITION of the territories to which the Mandate for Palestine applies, hereinafter described as "Palestine."

Palestine lies on the western edge of the continent of Asia between latitude 30° N. and 33° N., Longitude 34° 30 E. and 35° 30' E.

On the North it is bounded by the French Mandated Territories of Syria and the Lebanon, on the East by Syria and Trans-Jordan, on the South-west by the Egyptian province of Sinai, on the South-east by the Gulf of `Aqaba and on the West by the Mediterranean. The frontier with Syria was laid down by the Anglo-French Convention of the 23rd December, 1920, and its delimitation was ratified in 1923. Briefly stated, the boundaries are as follows:--

• 
  
  
  • North.--From Ras en Naqura on the Mediterranean eastwards to a point west of Qadas, thence in a northerly direction to Metulla, thence east to a point west of Banias.
  • East.--From Banias in a southerly direction east of Lake Hula to Jisr Banat Ya'pub, thence along a line east of the Jordan and the Lake of Tiberias and on to El Hamme station on the Samakh--Deraa railway line, thence along the centre of the river Yarmuq to its confluence with the Jordan, thence along the centres of the Jordan, the Dead Sea and the Wadi `Araba to a point on the Gulf of `Aqaba two miles west of the town of `Aqaba, thence along the shore of the Gulf of `Aqaba to Ras Jaba.
  • South.--From Ras Jaba in a generally north-westerly direction to the junction of the Neki--`Aqaba and Gaza--`Aqaba Roads, thence to a point west-north-west of `Ain Maghara and thence to a point on the Mediterranean coast north-west of Rafa.
  • West.--The Mediterranean Sea.

(COMMENT)

Even the ICJ Advisory Opinion General List No. 131 states that the territorial boundaries of the Mandate for Palestine were laid down by various instruments, in particular on the eastern border by a British memorandum of 16 September 1922 and an Anglo-Transjordanian Treaty of 20 February 1928. But nothing in the opinion substantiates the claim that the Arabs have something greater then the contemporary Occupied Territories.

Most Respectfully,
R

3. Reaffirms the inalienable right of the peoples of Namibia and Zimbabwe, of the Palestinian people and of all peoples under alien and colonial domination to self-determination, national independence, territorial integrity, and national unity and sovereignty without external interference;​

It is interesting that the Palestinians have the right to territorial integrity when you say they have no territory.

Perhaps you should dispense with the smoke and answer the question.

Which has been answered but you ignore them

 

[Challenger]

P F Tinmore, et al,

If you discount all the General Assembly Resolutions which are non-binding, then the Palestinians are really in trouble.

P F Tinmore, et al,

If these principles do not apply to Israel, formed pursuant to the Steps Preparatory to Independence as established by the General Assembly, then they cannot be either inalienable or universal.​

​

Resolution 181 was a non binding recommendation. It has nothing to do with the creation of Israel.

(COMMENT)

Damn near all basic human rights are documented by GA Resolutions.

273 (III). Admission of Israel to membership in the United Nations
​

Having received the report of the Security Council on the application of Israel for membership in the United Nations,1/

Noting that, in the judgment of the Security Council, Israel is a peace-loving State and is able and willing to carry out the obligations contained in the Charter,

Noting that the Security Council has recommended to the General Assembly that it admit Israel to membership in the United Nations,

Noting furthermore the declaration by the State of Israel that it "unreservedly accepts the obligations of the United Nations Charter and undertakes to honour them from the day when it becomes a Member of the United Nations",2/

Recalling its resolutions of 29 November 1947 3/ and 11 December 1948 4/ and taking note of the declarations and explanationsmade by the representative of the Government of Israel 5/ before the ad hoc Political Committee in respect of the implementation of the said resolutions,

The General Assembly,

Acting in discharge of its functions under Article 4 of the Charter and rule 125 of its rules of procedure,

1. Decides that Israel is a peace-loving State which accepts the obligations contained in the Charter and is able and willing to carry out those obligations;

2. Decides to admit Israel to membership in the United Nations.

The Core International Human Rights Instruments and their monitoring bodies
There are ten core international human rights instruments. Each of these instruments (9 human rights treaties and the Optional Protocol to the CAT) has established a committee of experts to monitor implementation of the treaty provisions by its States parties. Some of the treaties are supplemented by optional protocols dealing with specific concerns.

Date
Monitoring Body
ICERD International Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Racial Discrimination
21 Dec 1965
CERD
ICCPR International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights
16 Dec 1966
CCPR
ICESCR International Covenant on Economic, Social and Cultural Rights
16 Dec 1966
CESCR
CEDAW Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Discrimination against Women
18 Dec 1979
CEDAW
CAT Convention against Torture and Other Cruel, Inhuman or Degrading Treatment or Punishment
10 Dec 1984
CAT
CRC Convention on the Rights of the Child
20 Nov 1989
CRC
ICMW International Convention on the Protection of the Rights of All Migrant Workers and Members of Their Families
18 Dec 1990
CMW
CPED International Convention for the Protection of All Persons from Enforced Disappearance
20 Dec 2006
CED
CRPD Convention on the Rights of Persons with Disabilities
13 Dec 2006
CRPD
ICESCR - OP Optional Protocol to the Covenant on Economic, Social and Cultural Rights
10 Dec 2008
CESCR
ICCPR-OP1 Optional Protocol to the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights
16 Dec 1966
CCPR
ICCPR-OP2 Second Optional Protocol to the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights, aiming at the abolition of the death penalty
15 Dec 1989
CCPR
OP-CEDAW Optional Protocol to the Convention on the Elimination of Discrimination against Women
10 Dec 1999
CEDAW
OP-CRC-AC Optional protocol to the Convention on the Rights of the Child on the involvement of children in armed conflict
25 May 2000
CRC
OP-CRC-SC Optional protocol to the Convention on the Rights of the Child on the sale of children, child prostitution and child pornography
25 May 2000
CRC
OP-CRC-IC Optional Protocol to the Convention on the Rights of the Child on a communications procedure
14 Apr 2014

CRC
OP-CAT Optional Protocol to the Convention against Torture and Other Cruel, Inhuman or Degrading Treatment or Punishment
18 Dec 2002
SPT
OP-CRPD Optional Protocol to the Convention on the Rights of Persons with Disabilities
12 Dec 2006
CRPD
​

Most Respectfully,
R

Yeah right

UN Security Council Resolution
Resolution 446 (1979)
of 22 March 1979

"1. Determines that the policy and practices of Israel in establishing settlements in the Palestinian and other Arab territories occupied since 1967 have no legal validity and constitute a serious obstruction to achieving a comprehensive, just and lasting peace in the Middle East;

2. Strongly deplores the failure of Israel to abide by Security Council resolutions 237 (1967) of 14 June 1967, 252 (1968) of 21 May 1968 and 298 (1971) of 25 September 1971 and the consensus statement by the President of the Security Council on 11 November 1976 2/ and General Assembly resolutions 2253 (ES-V) and 2254 (ES-V) of 4 and 14 July 1967, 32/5 of 28 October 1977 and 33/113 of 18 December 1978;


3. Calls once more upon Israel, as the occupying Power, to abide scrupulously by the 1949 Fourth Geneva Convention, to rescind its previous measures and to desist from taking any action which would result in changing the legal status and geographical nature and materially affecting the demographic composition of the Arab territories occupied since 1967, including Jerusalem, and, in particular, not to transfer parts of its own civilian population into the occupied Arab territories;"

And just where does it say or else we will arrest you for breach of these laws ?

The same UN has called upon hamas and fatah to stop all violence and terrorism and to negotiate peace with their neighbours and mutual agreed borders.

Zionists have never negotiated in good faith. As proved by Bibbi recently

 

[Coyote]

So how do YOU know there were any Jewish people present?

Documentary evidence of the massacres by surviving Jews and Christians, are you that stupid that you think there were no proofs at the time of the massacres. Much like the mass graves being found in Iraq and Nigeria at the moment that are found to contain mixed up bodies.

Please provide evidence then, that Jewish bones were included in those bone churches. Frankly - you didn't even get the country right, what makes this claim any more credible? Only one church - when I googled it - had bones from an Islamic conflict.

So Spain was not ruled by the muslims now, according to you.

Huh??? How on earth did you come up with that?

And the muslims did not massacre many Christians and Jews in Spain according to you.

Where did I say that?

And that they did their usual practice of throwing the dismembered bodies into mass graves, according to you.

Really...according to me?

Dude - we were talking about a frigging bone church and now you've suddenly exploded all over the place.

Have you got it yet according to you the muslims did nothing, according to you the muslims are still doing nothing, according to you Jews were not killed at the same time as Christians.

Have you got it yet that you've exploded all over the place into stuff we never even discussed?

According to you the Jews do not have the right to a national home, according to you the arab muslims should be given Israel on a plate.

Really now....where did I say that Phoenall?

Now try looking for bone churches and see how many there are in reality, then look for muslim massacres in Spain. Or try Andalucía the Islamic name for Spain

I did. Maybe it's time you do it and try to substantiate your claims.

I have and you denied their credibility because they go against your brainwashing

Oh?

What links have you provided to show that there are multiple bone churches created from the victims of "Muslim massacres"?

 

[P F Tinmore]

P F Tinmore, et al,

I not even sure this is a legitimate question.

The Arab Palestinians have denied Israel the "territorial integrity" through assault, terrorism and conventional rocket fire. Israel is a member of the UN and entitled to defend itself.

You always crack me up with this one. Where is Israel's legitimate territory?

(REFERENCE)

Post #70 - No Palestinian State
Post $46 - No Palestinian State

(COMMENT)

Relative to Israel are identified in the treaties in the REFERENCE Postings. There are no real borders with respect to Israel and Palestine, as the Palestinians have not negotiated any boundaries. The closest simulated boundary are the Armistice demarcation lines.

Thus, it is the State of Palestine that has no boundaries.

Israel has boundaries by treaty.

Most Respectfully,
R

At what time and under what circumstances did Palestine's borders disappear.

When the nation of Israel made agreement with two of its neighbours Egypt and Jordan

None of them have any authority over Palestine's borders.

 

[RoccoR]

P F Tinmore,

This particular passage is from General Assembly Resolution 33/24 (1978)(again - NON-BINDING - not law) pertaining to:

• 
  
  Importance of the universal realization of the right of peoples to self-determination and of the speedy granting of independence​
  
  to colonial countries and peoples for the effective guarantee and observance of human rights​

3. Reaffirms the inalienable right of the peoples of Namibia and Zimbabwe, of the Palestinian people and of all peoples under alien and colonial domination to self-determination, national independence, territorial integrity, and national unity and sovereignty without external interference;​

It is interesting that the Palestinians have the right to territorial integrity when you say they have no territory.

Perhaps you should dispense with the smoke and answer the question.

(COMMENT)

This passage say that all people under alien and colonial domination have the right to:

• self-determination,
• national independence,
• territorial integrity, and
• national unity and sovereignty without external interference

In 1978 --- it does not say, confer, or otherwise indicate any specific territory in which these rights might be exercised. NOR does it say that the peoples of Namibia, Zimbabwe, or Palestine have any particular outstanding claim.

If the Palestinian People were to ever get territory, then the Palestinians have the right to territorial integrity. But not for a decade --- until 1988 --- did the Palestinian people stake a claim territorially.

In 1978, the:

• West Bank was sovereign Jordanian Territory, having been annexed by the Hashemite Kingdom, under the parliamentary process and right of self-determination. That Jordanian sovereign territory was then occupied by Israeli Forces when Arab Forces, staging for an attack, were successfully engaged.
• The Gaza Strip was under occupied by Israeli Forces, authority taken from the administration of the Egyptian Military Governorship; the All Palestine Government having been dissolved and disbanded by the Egyptian Government in 1959.

To be forthright in this discussion, it should be acknowledged that in 1977, when UN Sub-Commission first laid-out the ground work for the resolution, the subject of self-determination was dealt with at considerable length, and expressly affirmed the character of jus cogens of the principle of the self-determination of peoples; that is the a norm --- from which no partial revocation or abolition of a law is permitted (inalienable); "respect for the principle of the equal rights of all peoples and of their right of self-determination;" and certainly not unique to Palestinians. The concept applies to self-determination for everyone --- everywhere. It implies that it is respected by international law.

So, in 1978, the Arab Palestinians of the West Bank were Jordanian Nationals; while the Arab Palestinians in the Gaza Strip were under the national umbrella of the occupation power.

In 1978, other than the Gaza Strip, there was no Palestinian Territory. But 1979, the Treaty between the Egyptian Government and Israel establish a permanent boundary between Egypt and Israel --- recognized international boundary between Egypt and the "former mandated territory of Palestine." This is important because it includes all of the Gaza Strip on the Israeli side of the border.

This raises the question as to what "territory" the Arab Palestinian might control at that time (1978) --- or what was considered as "territorial integrity" for Palestinians?

(SMOKE SCREEN)

Yes, there is a smoke screen here, but it is not from me. Pro-Palestinians claim territorial integrity, but never identify what territory that is and when they establish Arab Palestinian control (a competent government) over that territory.

When the Arab Palestinian celebrated their non-member observer State status in the United Nations (2012), it did so with the delineation that the right of the Palestinian people to self-determination and to independence in their State of Palestine on the Palestinian territory occupied since 1967; but does not stipulate what territory that is. Israel occupied Jordanian territory in 1967 and the Egyptian Governorship.

What territory do the Palestinians claimed to have controlled in 1978; or even in 1967? If you can answer that question, I can answer the question on territorial integrity.

Most Respectfully,
R