Zone1 For Christians who believe in Darwinian evolution, question

[TNHarley]

Because when I asked you about what or who you believed created the universe you didn't say the Supreme Being or the Creator. Seems like if you had no doubt there was a Supreme Being or Creator, that you would have said the Supreme Being or the Creator.

So if you didn't change your mind in one hour, why didn't you answer that you believe the Supreme Being or the Creator created the universe?

Because IDK if they did. What if this all happened naturally? What if the asteroid theory was correct and life got to earth riding on an asteroid? Did that life come to be naturally? Did a supreme being create it, and simply used the asteroid as a personal UPS? What if some unknown species from another world put us here while passing through? What if a supreme being snapped his fingers and everything just started falling into place?
What im saying is, I dont have a certain belief on creation or whatever. I just simply dont know. And I am ok with that.

 

[TNHarley]

That's typical. I think he's pretty young.

Pretty sure he has an extra chromosome, so guessing his age is all but impossible.

 

[ding]

I get that you would think that.

And I hope you get that Ding thinks you are ignorant for your agnostic views. He wants you to commit to his beliefs because he can't tolerate anything else.

Why would I do that? I might question if he was really agnostic but it doesn't matter to me what others choose to believe. There's saying someone is ignorant and there's saying someone is ignorant about a subject and the distinction matters. For instance you are ignorant of the science of how the universe was created from nothing. That doesn't make you ignorant. Now do you understand the distinction?

I think it bothers you what others choose to believe. It doesn't bother me in the slightest.

 

[ding]

Because IDK if they did. What if this all happened naturally? What if the asteroid theory was correct and life got to earth riding on an asteroid? Did that life come to be naturally? Did a supreme being create it, and simply used the asteroid as a personal UPS? What if some unknown species from another world put us here while passing through? What if a supreme being snapped his fingers and everything just started falling into place?
What im saying is, I dont have a certain belief on creation or whatever. I just simply dont know. And I am ok with that.

I'm was asking about the universe being created from nothing, TN. Who or what do you think is responsible for that? You say you have no doubt that there is a supreme being/creator god, but if that were truly the case, seems like there's only one answer you could have for that question. Otherwise you will have a hard time reconciling a supreme being/creator god with a universe the supreme being/creator god didn't produce.

Look, the universe did literally pop into existence. It wasn't created from any existing matter. The science on this is overwhelming. Life and intelligence are literally hardwired into the fabric of matter. The science on this is overwhelming too.

 

[ding]

Questions couldnt be answered, so "muh god" was the easiest thing to do. Its just "unsettled" science and theories for you.

That's polytheism, not monotheism.

 

[TNHarley]

I'm was asking about the universe being created from nothing, TN. Who or what do you think is responsible for that? You say you have no doubt that there is a supreme being/creator god, but if that were truly the case, seems like there's only one answer you could have for that question. Otherwise you will have a hard time reconciling a supreme being/creator god with a universe the supreme being/creator god didn't produce.

Look, the universe did literally pop into existence. It wasn't created from any existing matter. The science on this is overwhelming. Life and intelligence are literally hardwired into the fabric of matter. The science on this is overwhelming too.

I dont have a problem with it at all. I just simply dont know. And im not going to pretend like I do.
Hek man, I dont even doubt the Universe has always just been.

 

[TNHarley]

That's polytheism, not monotheism.

Its irrelevant.

 

[buttercup]

I dont have a problem with it at all. I just simply dont know. And im not going to pretend like I do.
Hek man, I dont even doubt the Universe has always just been.

Not that this needs to be stated, but there's nothing wrong with saying "I don't know." Even though I'm a believer, there are certain issues (regarding the universe, or other topics) that I'm agnostic on. My take on it is that as long as I have a firm position on what's important, the less important things can wait. As it says in 1 Cor 13:12
"Now we see things imperfectly, like puzzling reflections in a mirror, but then we will see everything with perfect clarity."

That said...can I ask you a question? When you consider things like the human mind, DNA, the universe, the order in the universe we can see.... what do you think is more likely? a) that life and creation came from some sort of intelligence or b) it all put itself together from nothing, no intelligence, just dumb luck. (You might have a different answer, but between those 2, which do you think is more likely, a or b?)

 

[TNHarley]

Not that this needs to be stated, but there's nothing wrong with saying "I don't know." Even though I'm a believer, there are certain issues (regarding the universe, or other topics) that I'm agnostic on. My take on it is that as long as I have a firm position on what's important, the less important things can wait. As it says in 1 Cor 13:12
"Now we see things imperfectly, like puzzling reflections in a mirror, but then we will see everything with perfect clarity."

That said...can I ask you a question? When you consider things like the human mind, DNA, the universe, the order in the universe we can see.... what do you think is more likely? a) that life and creation came from some sort of intelligence or b) it put itself together from nothing, no intelligence, just dumb luck. (You might have a different answer, but between those 2, which do you think is more likely, a or b?)

One of my biggest questions on this is, if a creator made all of this, where did it come from?
Then you start going down the rabbit hole. What if we are like "mice in a maze" to our scientists or something lol. and blah blah blah
Its a very complicated question.
If I had to pick one, I would go with B, as far as the universe is concerned. Human existence is something different entirely.
The theories I enjoy on this subject vary widely. Some of the creation theories I like could still be a B. Like the astronaut theory. That could be an A as far as we are concerned, while I still could think the universe came into existence by "dumb luck"

 

[buttercup]

One of my biggest questions on this is, if a creator made all of this, where did it come from?
Then you start going down the rabbit hole. What if we are like "mice in a maze" to our scientists or something lol. and blah blah blah

The Creator didn't come from anywhere. If God came from somewhere, then He wouldn't be God, he would be another creation. God is the Creator, the buck stops there.

From a biblical perspective, God is eternal. Meaning without beginning or end, God always existed.

I totally get that it's a very difficult concept for us mere humans to wrap our minds around. But that's OK... as finite, fallible beings we simply can't fully understand everything....if we could fully understand God, then that wouldn't be much of a 'god'. In fact, the incomprehensibility of God is one of God's attributes. But at the same time, God is also knowable. Those two things can be true at the same time, because we can know some things, the important things, but there are other things we can't fully understand.

Its a very complicated question.
If I had to pick one, I would go with B, as far as the universe is concerned. Human existence is something different entirely.
The theories I enjoy on this subject vary widely. Some of the creation theories I like could still be a B. Like the astronaut theory. That could be an A as far as we are concerned, while I still could think the universe came into existence by "dumb luck"

Hmm. Ok, thanks for answering. I don't want to put you on the spot or anything... but it seems strange to me that you would separate human existence from the universe. Because if you concede that a Creator makes more sense for human life, why wouldn't that same Creator be the cause of the material world as well?

God is The First Cause. Logically, the First Cause must be eternal.... since the first cause cannot itself have a cause. And I can't speak about other religions, but in the Bible, God fits the description of the First Cause - eternal, unchanging, etc.

 

[Hollie]

Not that this needs to be stated, but there's nothing wrong with saying "I don't know." Even though I'm a believer, there are certain issues (regarding the universe, or other topics) that I'm agnostic on. My take on it is that as long as I have a firm position on what's important, the less important things can wait. As it says in 1 Cor 13:12
"Now we see things imperfectly, like puzzling reflections in a mirror, but then we will see everything with perfect clarity."

That said...can I ask you a question? When you consider things like the human mind, DNA, the universe, the order in the universe we can see.... what do you think is more likely? a) that life and creation came from some sort of intelligence or b) it all put itself together from nothing, no intelligence, just dumb luck. (You might have a different answer, but between those 2, which do you think is more likely, a or b?)

I see nothing to suggest supernatural design when considering the human mind, DNA, the universe, etc. These systems are all flawed, tenuous and subject to disorder and chaos, just like we see routinely.

The fact is, there is disorder and chaos and destruction within the universe, not order. Cataclysmic explosions of stars, asteroid / meteor impact, Black Holes that devour star systems etc., etc. and closer to home, floods, tsunami’s, earthquakes, etc., etc. Hardly the mark of a consistent, ordered universe or our planetary environment.

 

[ding]

I dont have a problem with it at all. I just simply dont know. And im not going to pretend like I do.
Hek man, I dont even doubt the Universe has always just been.

Well, you should doubt that. No one believes the universe was eternal into the past. That is of course except for the ones that have a theological motivation to not believe the universe popped into existence being hardwired to produce life and intelligence.

I get that you don't know. I just think that means you have a doubt about there being a Supreme Being/Creator.

 

[ding]

Its irrelevant.

Incorrect. It's extremely relevant. The account of Creation in Genesis was in direct opposition to the religious beliefs of the day; polytheism. It's this context, this contrast that matters the most. Believing everything was created by one God who didn't control the weather or meddle in the affairs of men would have been equivalent to the earth being round or the earth revolving around the sun. It was blaspheme at the time. Did you know that Genesis correctly sequence matter existing before light? It took science 6,000 years to agree with that and that the universe began.

 

[Seymour Flops]

/——/ As a Catholic, I was taught that evolution and creationism can co-exist. It doesn’t have to be one or the other. I can’t understand why the two hardcore sides can’t meet in the middle. Evolution is part of creationism as designed by God.

Yes, that is fine with me.

I hope you realize that it is not at all fine to the hardcore Darwinists. They will not ever meet in the middle. If you don't believe me, try suggesting to one of them that it would be OK for a science teacher to hang a sign in their classroom that said, "Evolution is a Great Gift from God" or some such.

Don't stand within spittle range when you do, though.

 

[Hollie]

Yes, that is fine with me.

I hope you realize that it is not at all fine to the hardcore Darwinists. They will not ever meet in the middle. If you don't believe me, try suggesting to one of them that it would be OK for a science teacher to hang a sign in their classroom that said, "Evolution is a Great Gift from God" or some such.

Don't stand within spittle range when you do, though.

I would hope the hardcore religionists / creationers would realize their versions of gods / supernatural entities are in conflict with many versions of competing gods / supernatural entities. Why not hang a sign in science classroom claiming ''The Cancer Cell is a Great Gift From the Gods'' or some such inspiring thing.

The inference from "supernatural design" (applied to biology, for exampke). to the supernatural designer gods goal, and thus to supernatural designer gods, is a, you know, leap of faith. If we have no criteria for identifying design goals of supernatural designer gods, other than something very big appears to have been designed supernaturally, we end up with many designer gods, many goals of the designer gods, many design criteria, and ultimately it is simply a restatement of the evolutionary notion of fitness. A "design" is something that makes an organism fit, that is, able to live and reproduce. But we already have an account of fitness, and it doesn't involve supernatural designers, or even, really, design: It’s called ‘’natural selection’’.

 

[Cellblock2429]

Yes, that is fine with me.

I hope you realize that it is not at all fine to the hardcore Darwinists. They will not ever meet in the middle. If you don't believe me, try suggesting to one of them that it would be OK for a science teacher to hang a sign in their classroom that said, "Evolution is a Great Gift from God" or some such.

Don't stand within spittle range when you do, though.

/——/ You don’t have to tell me about hard core. I grew up in the Bible Belt where Catholics were called Papists and not considered Christian.

 

[presonorek]

What if she is neither? Further, we don't need to know the specifics. It is simple testimony that one can have an experience of God. If you do not wish to have one, or even seek one, that is all up to you. She is testifying to her own experience; that is not frogmarching you into one of your own.

Must be hard for you to serve on a jury not knowing if any of the witnesses are lying or delusional.

I'll never serve on a jury. I don't even know the specifics of the case. I will say, "Not guilty" 1 trillion times out of 1 trillion. I have first hand experience with the criminal justice system. Innocent people get fucked constantly. Guilty people get treated like gold.

 

[Cellblock2429]

I'll never serve on a jury. I don't even know the specifics of the case. I will say, "Not guilty" 1 trillion times out of 1 trillion. I have first hand experience with the criminal justice system. Innocent people get fucked constantly. Guilty people get treated like gold.

/——-/ And if you piss off the wrong judge, expect to be charged with contempt.

 

[Meriweather]

I'll never serve on a jury. I don't even know the specifics of the case. I will say, "Not guilty" 1 trillion times out of 1 trillion. I have first hand experience with the criminal justice system. Innocent people get fucked constantly. Guilty people get treated like gold.

Great irony in this response. You read Lisa's testimony and pronounce her guilty of lying or being delusional. Yet when asked to serve on an actual jury you go in with attitude of 'not guilty' without even hearing the case.

 

[TNHarley]

The Creator didn't come from anywhere. If God came from somewhere, then He wouldn't be God, he would be another creation. God is the Creator, the buck stops there.

From a biblical perspective, God is eternal. Meaning without beginning or end, God always existed.

I totally get that it's a very difficult concept for us mere humans to wrap our minds around. But that's OK... as finite, fallible beings we simply can't fully understand everything....if we could fully understand God, then that wouldn't be much of a 'god'. In fact, the incomprehensibility of God is one of God's attributes. But at the same time, God is also knowable. Those two things can be true at the same time, because we can know some things, the important things, but there are other things we can't fully understand.



Hmm. Ok, thanks for answering. I don't want to put you on the spot or anything... but it seems strange to me that you would separate human existence from the universe. Because if you concede that a Creator makes more sense for human life, why wouldn't that same Creator be the cause of the material world as well?

God is The First Cause. Logically, the First Cause must be eternal.... since the first cause cannot itself have a cause. And I can't speak about other religions, but in the Bible, God fits the description of the First Cause - eternal, unchanging, etc.

A god has always existed even when there was nothing? Thats hard to agree with.
I can see something creating the universe but not creating us. We could have just been an effect of creation.