First Hyrbid Solar Thermal Power Plant In Florida!!

[flacaltenn]

He or she is claiming credit for a solar installation that started before she was even aware of the technology, then she just noticed an article about one opening almost four years ago.

Are you done with your strawman?

I'm not bashing BigOil. I'm perfectly happy, for instance, to not discuss the saline tanks that could store the solar thermal energy collected during the day and run refrigerant generators at night and be nearly completely weaned from oil and coal. [nuclear water boilers are completely off the table].

No, I expressed happiness that solar thermal has kept on the largely unnecessary carbon sources so that this industry can still have somewhat of a toehold on boiling water too.

I mean, if you want to talk about those saline tanks and how they are capable of trapping and storing hours of heat energy for use at night to make power then, sure, we can go there. Just don't accuse me of being anti-carbon. You're forgetting about plastics, automobiles and the like that will always be a use for petrolium products.

You're overrating the long-term storage efficacy of these solar thermal plants. The efficiency of this storage declines the further out you try to stretch it. It tends to make a 6 or 8 hour energy source into at most a 10 or 12 hour energy source. That's the reason why MANY solar thermal plants leave the storage feature out. It subtracts from peak production capability and is not actually cost effective unless your demand curves are unusual. See the IVanpah system outside Las Vegas for example. That city doesn't need early morning power, but NEEDS to extend as far into the evening as possible..

 

[Silhouette]

You're overrating the long-term storage efficacy of these solar thermal plants. The efficiency of this storage declines the further out you try to stretch it. It tends to make a 6 or 8 hour energy source into at most a 10 or 12 hour energy source. That's the reason why MANY solar thermal plants leave the storage feature out. It subtracts from peak production capability and is not actually cost effective unless your demand curves are unusual. See the IVanpah system outside Las Vegas for example. That city doesn't need early morning power, but NEEDS to extend as far into the evening as possible..

No, I won't "see the Ivanpah system outside Las Vegas for example." And I've already explained why that is. Ivanpah was designed to fail as an "example" to "why solar thermal just isn't feasible". Courtesy of BigOil. Designed by BrightSource Energy and Bechtel. Bechtel is famous for assisting/contracting the Alaska oil pipeline and other natural gas projects. BrightSource investors include: Google.org, BP Alternative Energy, Morgan Stanley, DBL Investors, Draper Fisher Jurvetson, Chevron Technology Ventures, Statoil Venture, and Black River... Do you think that oil companies would be eager to design systems that were simple, that any power plant could add to their system to reduce oil consumption, instead of buying oil from BP, Chevron etc.? That would be like McDonald's designing a new meat patty for Burger King and then throwing their hands up in the air as suddenly all of Burger King's customers started getting food poisoning and saying "see, Burger King's food just isn't a good investment". It's elementary school capitalism: eliminate the competition by any means necessary...

The Ivanpah system employs FLAT mirrors set A VAST DISTANCE FROM THE TARGET SOURCE, which diffusion and particulates would interfere with [on purpose] that delievers TEPID HEAT to a LOFTY TOWER FAR AWAY in comparison with the 300 degrees CELSIUS that linear PARABOLIC mirrors CONCENTRATE on a linear oil-filled tube AT EXTREME CLOSE RANGE. One, Ivanpah, designed by BigOil interests, was DESIGNED TO FAIL. It had to be. Just look at it! The other runs like a champ, is much easier to set up and takes up much less real estate per kwh produced.

Ivanpah is the first "solar thermal" type, a failure:

Martin is the linear tube type, a success:

 

[asterism]

You're overrating the long-term storage efficacy of these solar thermal plants. The efficiency of this storage declines the further out you try to stretch it. It tends to make a 6 or 8 hour energy source into at most a 10 or 12 hour energy source. That's the reason why MANY solar thermal plants leave the storage feature out. It subtracts from peak production capability and is not actually cost effective unless your demand curves are unusual. See the IVanpah system outside Las Vegas for example. That city doesn't need early morning power, but NEEDS to extend as far into the evening as possible..

No, I won't "see the Ivanpah system outside Las Vegas for example." And I've already explained why that is. Ivanpah was designed to fail as an "example" to "why solar thermal just isn't feasible". Courtesy of BigOil. Designed by BrightSource Energy and Bechtel. Bechtel is famous for assisting/contracting the Alaska oil pipeline and other natural gas projects. BrightSource investors include: Google.org, BP Alternative Energy, Morgan Stanley, DBL Investors, Draper Fisher Jurvetson, Chevron Technology Ventures, Statoil Venture, and Black River... Do you think that oil companies would be eager to design systems that were simple, that any power plant could add to their system to reduce oil consumption, instead of buying oil from BP, Chevron etc.? That would be like McDonald's designing a new meat patty for Burger King and then throwing their hands up in the air as suddenly all of Burger King's customers started getting food poisoning and saying "see, Burger King's food just isn't a good investment". It's elementary school capitalism: eliminate the competition by any means necessary...

The Ivanpah system employs FLAT mirrors set A VAST DISTANCE FROM THE TARGET SOURCE, which diffusion and particulates would interfere with [on purpose] that delievers TEPID HEAT to a LOFTY TOWER FAR AWAY in comparison with the 300 degrees CELSIUS that linear PARABOLIC mirrors CONCENTRATE on a linear oil-filled tube AT EXTREME CLOSE RANGE. One, Ivanpah, designed by BigOil interests, was DESIGNED TO FAIL. It had to be. Just look at it! The other runs like a champ, is much easier to set up and takes up much less real estate per kwh produced.

Ivanpah is the first "solar thermal" type, a failure:

Martin is the linear tube type, a success:

Tepid?

Ivanpah heats to 1000° Celsius. You really don't seem to know what you are talking about.

The Prometheus Gas Turbine Project Introduces A New Electric Gas Turbine

 

[flacaltenn]

You're overrating the long-term storage efficacy of these solar thermal plants. The efficiency of this storage declines the further out you try to stretch it. It tends to make a 6 or 8 hour energy source into at most a 10 or 12 hour energy source. That's the reason why MANY solar thermal plants leave the storage feature out. It subtracts from peak production capability and is not actually cost effective unless your demand curves are unusual. See the IVanpah system outside Las Vegas for example. That city doesn't need early morning power, but NEEDS to extend as far into the evening as possible..

No, I won't "see the Ivanpah system outside Las Vegas for example." And I've already explained why that is. Ivanpah was designed to fail as an "example" to "why solar thermal just isn't feasible". Courtesy of BigOil. Designed by BrightSource Energy and Bechtel. Bechtel is famous for assisting/contracting the Alaska oil pipeline and other natural gas projects. BrightSource investors include: Google.org, BP Alternative Energy, Morgan Stanley, DBL Investors, Draper Fisher Jurvetson, Chevron Technology Ventures, Statoil Venture, and Black River... Do you think that oil companies would be eager to design systems that were simple, that any power plant could add to their system to reduce oil consumption, instead of buying oil from BP, Chevron etc.? That would be like McDonald's designing a new meat patty for Burger King and then throwing their hands up in the air as suddenly all of Burger King's customers started getting food poisoning and saying "see, Burger King's food just isn't a good investment". It's elementary school capitalism: eliminate the competition by any means necessary...

The Ivanpah system employs FLAT mirrors set A VAST DISTANCE FROM THE TARGET SOURCE, which diffusion and particulates would interfere with [on purpose] that delievers TEPID HEAT to a LOFTY TOWER FAR AWAY in comparison with the 300 degrees CELSIUS that linear PARABOLIC mirrors CONCENTRATE on a linear oil-filled tube AT EXTREME CLOSE RANGE. One, Ivanpah, designed by BigOil interests, was DESIGNED TO FAIL. It had to be. Just look at it! The other runs like a champ, is much easier to set up and takes up much less real estate per kwh produced.

Ivanpah is the first "solar thermal" type, a failure:

Martin is the linear tube type, a success:

Wow.. That just took you out of valid interesting discussion region -- and placed you in the conspiracy corner, dont' jack me with the facts netherworld..

Just got finished noting how MANY of these projects only got off the ground because "big oil" paid for them AND USED THEM on their own oil fields. For you to believe that they PAID for crappy engineering (which Bechtel is not known for) AND designed it to fail for propaganda purposes is absurd.. The power from IvanPah IS BEING SOLD today. And from all indications -- it's a failed failure..

 

[Silhouette]

Wow.. That just took you out of valid interesting discussion region -- and placed you in the conspiracy corner, dont' jack me with the facts netherworld..

Just got finished noting how MANY of these projects only got off the ground because "big oil" paid for them AND USED THEM on their own oil fields. For you to believe that they PAID for crappy engineering (which Bechtel is not known for) AND designed it to fail for propaganda purposes is absurd.. The power from IvanPah IS BEING SOLD today. And from all indications -- it's a failed failure..

A retarded chimp can see how ridiculous the design of Ivanpah is. Shine a flat mirror at a tank hundreds of feet away in a dusty region like a desert and ask yourself with diffusion at such a distance, and particulate interference, how effective that flat non-concentrating surface would be at heating the element so far away.

Therefore, I have only to conclude that the Ivanpah circular "solar thermal" array is a complete sham, known beforehand to engineers. A child can take a car headlamp reflector, put a piece of wood in the bulb clip and point it at the sun to see the difference concave concentration of the sun's rays can make vs flat. {The wood will start to burn within seconds, wear eye protection!] And that same child can hold their hand out farther away to see when the heat starts to dissipate. Any child, therefore, can tell you that parabolics beat flat hands down and that the farther away you place the object, the less heat it will collect as a result.

Bechtel's involvment in this sham is questionable. They know which system works better and they chose the one that worked with the least efficiency between the two. How this is not "engineering to fail" is a matter up for debate here.

 

[Andylusion]

Wow.. That just took you out of valid interesting discussion region -- and placed you in the conspiracy corner, dont' jack me with the facts netherworld..

Just got finished noting how MANY of these projects only got off the ground because "big oil" paid for them AND USED THEM on their own oil fields. For you to believe that they PAID for crappy engineering (which Bechtel is not known for) AND designed it to fail for propaganda purposes is absurd.. The power from IvanPah IS BEING SOLD today. And from all indications -- it's a failed failure..

A retarded chimp can see how ridiculous the design of Ivanpah is. Shine a flat mirror at a tank hundreds of feet away in a dusty region like a desert and ask yourself with diffusion at such a distance, and particulate interference, how effective that flat non-concentrating surface would be at heating the element so far away.

Therefore, I have only to conclude that the Ivanpah circular "solar thermal" array is a complete sham, known beforehand to engineers. A child can take a car headlamp reflector, put a piece of wood in the bulb clip and point it at the sun to see the difference concave concentration of the sun's rays can make vs flat. {The wood will start to burn within seconds, wear eye protection!] And that same child can hold their hand out farther away to see when the heat starts to dissipate. Any child, therefore, can tell you that parabolics beat flat hands down and that the farther away you place the object, the less heat it will collect as a result.

Bechtel's involvment in this sham is questionable. They know which system works better and they chose the one that worked with the least efficiency between the two. How this is not "engineering to fail" is a matter up for debate here.

You don't know what your talking about.

 

[Silhouette]

Wow.. That just took you out of valid interesting discussion region -- and placed you in the conspiracy corner, dont' jack me with the facts netherworld..

Just got finished noting how MANY of these projects only got off the ground because "big oil" paid for them AND USED THEM on their own oil fields. For you to believe that they PAID for crappy engineering (which Bechtel is not known for) AND designed it to fail for propaganda purposes is absurd.. The power from IvanPah IS BEING SOLD today. And from all indications -- it's a failed failure..

A retarded chimp can see how ridiculous the design of Ivanpah is. Shine a flat mirror at a tank hundreds of feet away in a dusty region like a desert and ask yourself with diffusion at such a distance, and particulate interference, how effective that flat non-concentrating surface would be at heating the element so far away.

Therefore, I have only to conclude that the Ivanpah circular "solar thermal" array is a complete sham, known beforehand to engineers. A child can take a car headlamp reflector, put a piece of wood in the bulb clip and point it at the sun to see the difference concave concentration of the sun's rays can make vs flat. {The wood will start to burn within seconds, wear eye protection!] And that same child can hold their hand out farther away to see when the heat starts to dissipate. Any child, therefore, can tell you that parabolics beat flat hands down and that the farther away you place the object, the less heat it will collect as a result.

Bechtel's involvment in this sham is questionable. They know which system works better and they chose the one that worked with the least efficiency between the two. How this is not "engineering to fail" is a matter up for debate here.

You don't know what your talking about.

Very substantive retort. Care to elaborate?

When you build something that is less efficient than other designs out there and try to sell it to the public as "something that is good" when it is really something that will fail, what else have you done but engineered something to fail?

 

[Silhouette]

Here's a way to improve even more on the efficiency of the solar thermal linear tube array using fresnel lenses just atop the oil filled tube that the parabolic mirrors are hitting also from underneath:

 

[Silhouette]

With the fresnel magnifiers atop the linear tube, even on semi-overcast cloudy days good temperatures can be reached. At least enough to run refrigerant turbines like they have going on in Alaska:

http://www.akenergyauthority.org/Re...alProjectReport_ChenaPowerGeothermalPlant.pdf

The geothermal power plant has been operating with 95% availability since the
installation of the first 200kW unit in July, 2006, and has relegated diesel generation to a
supplemental and backup role in power generation for the site. The power plant operated
for over 3000 hours in 2006, generating 578,550kWhrs and displacing 44,500 gallons in
diesel fuel. In 2007, the project is expected to generate 3 million kWhrs of clean
geothermal power and displace 224,000 gallons of diesel for an estimated savings of
$550,000....

...The geothermal power plant installed at Chena Hot Springs has reduced the cost of power
from 30¢ per kWhr to 5¢ per kWhr, with further reductions expected once loans to fund
project infrastructure are repaid. Maintenance cost for the power plant is expected to be
1¢ per kWhr....

...The cost of electric power in rural Alaska is among the highest in the United States, and
frequently approaches $1 per kW. The cost of power is currently 86¢ per kW at Manley
Hot Springs2, and 56¢ per kW at Central (near Circle Hot Springs). At Chena, power has
been generated in the past using diesel gensets – as in most Alaskan villages – at a cost of
30¢ per kW....

...Chena has long
been interested in tapping the available geothermal resource for generating electric
power. However, an exploration program conducted in the late 1970’s and early 80’s
(Wescott and Turner, 1981) discounted the site for power generation with technology
available at that time. As a result, Chena decided to take a two-tiered approach to reevaluating
the site for power generation. Simultaneous projects were undertaken with
the first involving the short-term installation of a small geothermal power plant designed
to operate off the existing, proven resource. At the same time, a more extensive
exploration and assessment program was conducted to define the deeper resource
potential, and ensure the long-term sustainability of the resource. This second
exploration program became the DOE funded Chena Hot Springs GRED III project...

....In October, 2004, Chena Hot Springs was approached by the United Technologies
Research Center (a division of United Technologies Corporation) on the recommendation
of the Department of Energy Geothermal Technologies Program. United Technologies
Corporation had developed a modular ORC power generation system designed to use
waste heat from industrial applications. The product was called the PureCycle 200, and
United Technologies was interested in installing a unit to operate on heat from a
geothermal resource as another application of their technology. Chena was an excellent
candidate for the project, and after discussion with Barber-Nichols, it was decided to
proceed with a project through United Technologies Corporation.
The primary reason for making the switch in manufacturer was that United Technologies
(UTC) represented an opportunity to further the geothermal industry as a whole. UTC
had developed a unique approach to reducing costs through the use of inexpensive, mass
produced, U.S. manufactured air conditioning and refrigeration equipment from Carrier
Refrigeration4. In fact, UTC’s stated goal was to reduce the cost of geothermal power
generation equipment from $3000/kWhr installed to $1300/kWhr installed....

...United Technologies Corporation (UTC), through their Research Center, partnered with
Chena Hot Springs in early 2005 with the goal of adapting the PureCycle® product to a
moderate temperature geothermal resource. The specific objective for UTC was to
demonstrate the feasibility of producing electricity at a cost of less than 5¢/kWh from a
165°F geothermal resource with 98% availability. The geothermal application for the
PureCycle® platform would involve some additional innovation and opportunities for
cost reduction beyond that of the original PureCycle® 200 platform, includung:
• Changing the working fluid used in the PureCycle® ORC plant from R245fa to
R134a. This fluid is a better match for low temperature geothermal applications
and enables a significant cost reduction, both directly because R134a is a low cost
fluid widely used in HVAC equipment and indirectly by allowing lower cost
commercially available components to be used in the power plant.
• Developing low cost heat exchangers specific to geothermal applications based on
designs and production capability in place for Carrier’s large commercial and
marine water-cooled chillers...

...Reducing the plant cost relative to the PureCycle® ORC plant by incorporating
and qualifying more commercially available components made feasible by the
lower operating temperature in geothermal applications.
• Develop control algorithms and methods for operation with tube and shell heat
exchangers rather than the fin-tube technology applied in the PureCycle® plant.
The geothermal plant modules were designed and qualified at the United Technologies
Research Center before installation at Chena Hot Springs. Cycle analysis shows that with
the 164°F temperature geothermal liquid as the heat source and 40ºF river water as heat
sink, two geothermal power plants can be developed with HFC134a as the working fluid.

So it looks like they are using delta T to create energy.

4.2 Refrigerant Design Points
Mass flow rate: 26.8 lbm/s
Evaporator/turbine inlet pressure: 232 psia
Condenser/turbine exit pressure: 63.6 psia
Turbine gross power: 250 kW
Pump power: 40 kW
System output power (net): 210 kW
Thermal efficiency: 8.2 %
This efficiency is quite a challenge given the limited thermodynamic availability of the
low temperature geothermal heat source. A completely reversible thermodynamic cycle
working with the same heat source and heat sink temperature glides would have a thermal
efficiency just under 18%. Fortunately, efficiency improvements are far less critical in
power generation when the fuel is essentially free.

Here's the math on low temp power generation:

A TS Cycle Diagram for the power plant is included in Figure 5. On the
preheater/evaporator side of the ORC system, 530 gpm of 164 °F hot water (point A in
Figure 5) enters the unit and is cooled to 130 °F (point B) transferring 2.58 MW of
thermal energy to the refrigerant. This energy preheats the 26.8 lbm/s refrigerant mass
flow rate from 54 °F (state point 4) to 136 °F and subsequently boils the working fluid at
this temperature before slightly superheating it (state point 1). The high-pressure
refrigerant vapor is expanded in the turbine that extracts 270 kW of mechanical power..

...from the refrigerant flow at 80% aerodynamic efficiency. After accounting for
mechanical and electrical losses 250 kW of electrical power is delivered by the generator.
The refrigerant vapor leaving the turbine (state point 2) is de-superheated, condensed at
53 °F and then slightly subcooled to state point 3 in the 2.36 MWth water-cooled
condenser. The condenser heat is transferred to 1615 gpm of 40 °F cold water (point C)
that is heated to 50 °F (point D). The refrigerant loop is closed by a pump, which
elevates the refrigerant pressure from 65 psia (state point 3) to 245 psia (state point 4).
The pump requires 40 kW of electrical power. Accounting for all losses, the net power
produced by each power plant module is 210 kW. This can be increased when using the
air cooled condenser during the winter months.

These applications can be applied at night from heat stored in saline gradient tanks on site at solar thermal installations. Unlike the claims of *some* posters here, the systems are relatively easy to manufacture:

The turbine can be specified with a rotor and multi-port
conical nozzles chosen from a range of standard options to provide the optimal
performance for specific design points. The Bill of Materials (BOM) of the PureCycle®
turbogenerator has a total of 171 line items. Relative to the corresponding chiller
compressor assembly, the PureCycle turbogenerator has only 13 unique manufactured
parts. There are no significant changes in processes, patterns or tooling. This allows for
the turbine to be manufactured with the same consistent quality as commercial chiller
plants.

 

[flacaltenn]

Wow.. That just took you out of valid interesting discussion region -- and placed you in the conspiracy corner, dont' jack me with the facts netherworld..

Just got finished noting how MANY of these projects only got off the ground because "big oil" paid for them AND USED THEM on their own oil fields. For you to believe that they PAID for crappy engineering (which Bechtel is not known for) AND designed it to fail for propaganda purposes is absurd.. The power from IvanPah IS BEING SOLD today. And from all indications -- it's a failed failure..

A retarded chimp can see how ridiculous the design of Ivanpah is. Shine a flat mirror at a tank hundreds of feet away in a dusty region like a desert and ask yourself with diffusion at such a distance, and particulate interference, how effective that flat non-concentrating surface would be at heating the element so far away.

Therefore, I have only to conclude that the Ivanpah circular "solar thermal" array is a complete sham, known beforehand to engineers. A child can take a car headlamp reflector, put a piece of wood in the bulb clip and point it at the sun to see the difference concave concentration of the sun's rays can make vs flat. {The wood will start to burn within seconds, wear eye protection!] And that same child can hold their hand out farther away to see when the heat starts to dissipate. Any child, therefore, can tell you that parabolics beat flat hands down and that the farther away you place the object, the less heat it will collect as a result.

Bechtel's involvment in this sham is questionable. They know which system works better and they chose the one that worked with the least efficiency between the two. How this is not "engineering to fail" is a matter up for debate here.

Not only did you go off into the woods with conspiracy theories, but you ignored the 2 credible sources that I gave you citing the efficiency advantage of the Tower design. And your campfire knowledge of optics is not strong enough to recognize how bad your intuition truly is.. Take for instance the segmented mirror of the world's largest reflector telescopes.

This is the same ray tracing that occurs in a parabolic mirror design or any kind of focusing compound lens design. There IS NO DIFFERENCE between segmented flat mirror design that approximates a parabola and your burnt "kiddie" hand example is FOS. The tower design results in MUCH HIGHER temperatures and turbine efficiencies.

I've taken a lot of optic engineering for parts of my career. And I never took advice from a retarded chimp. But I can clearly see now where your conspiracy ideas arise from...

 

[CaféAuLait]

Even this clean energy has it's risks. This is the spill which occurred at the hybrid plant in the OP. This spill took a month and a half to clean up.

Too much pressure had built up in the system at the Martin Next Generation Solar Energy Center — the world's first hybrid solar thermal plant and the largest solar plant in Florida.

For about two hours on June 1, a safety valve released steam, water and 46,000 gallons of "heat transfer fluid" into the air.


Dowtherm A is a mixture of two organic compounds — biphenyl and diphenyl oxide — that is stable at high temperatures. That stability is important since about 190,000 curved mirrors at the Martin solar plant are used to heat the liquid to more than 700 degrees. The fluid is then converted to steam to help power the natural gas plant.

Dow Chemical Co., which manufactures Dowtherm A, warns it may cause skin and respiratory tract irritation and is "highly toxic to fish and/or other aquatic organisms." But it has a low toxicity level if inhaled or ingested by humans. While it can cause pain to the eyes, it won't injure the cornea, according to the manufacturer.

Eve Samples: Major spill at FPL solar plant gets glossed over » TCPalm.com

The article also points out customers are footing the bill for the new plant.

 

[Decus]

With the fresnel magnifiers atop the linear tube, even on semi-overcast cloudy days good temperatures can be reached. At least enough to run refrigerant turbines like they have going on in Alaska:




Chena Hot Springs is a geothermal power plant. Chena has nothing to do with solar. If you wanted to show a hybrid geothermal/solar plant you could point to Stillwater Energy Plant in Nevada. Instead you want to pretend you have an idea........too funny.

The problem with heat sinks is that they have limited storage capacity. A solar plant relying on back-up heat might (depending on size) be able to run for a night but would not be able to sustain the plant's energy production much longer than that.

Geothermal is a constant and reliable source of heat 24/7/365. Geothermal is a good and clean source of energy but doesn't require solar to operate. Given that this thread is about solar energy it seems you would have to admit that solar needs a constant source of energy production like hydro, nuclear or geothermal to work. Too funny.

World's First Solar-Geothermal Hybrid Plant Opens In Nevada | Inhabitat - Sustainable Design Innovation, Eco Architecture, Green Building


.

 

[Silhouette]

Chena Hot Springs is a geothermal power plant. Chena has nothing to do with solar. If you wanted to show a hybrid geothermal/solar plant you could point to Stillwater Energy Plant in Nevada. Instead you want to pretend you have an idea........too funny.

The problem with heat sinks is that they have limited storage capacity. A solar plant relying on back-up heat might (depending on size) be able to run for a night but would not be able to sustain the plant's energy production much longer than that.

Geothermal is a constant and reliable source of heat 24/7/365. Geothermal is a good and clean source of energy but doesn't require solar to operate. Given that this thread is about solar energy it seems you would have to admit that solar needs a constant source of energy production like hydro, nuclear or geothermal to work. Too funny.

It's so cute how you wilfully mislead. You know that I was talking about Chena because of their refrigerant generators. Remember how I was talking about them being able to be used at night in solar thermal plants, running off of the stored excess heat from the sun in layered salt tanks? Off delta T [change in temperature from warm to very cold] Of course you remember that!

But yes, geothermal is another excellent source of turbine power. Especially if, like Chena demonstrated, you can use lower-heat sources to run turbines like what they're doing at Chena.

It's those low-temp turbine systems I was talking about to reduce carbon use even more at solar thermal plants. Try not to mislead so grotesquely next time.

 

[thereisnospoon]

Chena Hot Springs is a geothermal power plant. Chena has nothing to do with solar. If you wanted to show a hybrid geothermal/solar plant you could point to Stillwater Energy Plant in Nevada. Instead you want to pretend you have an idea........too funny.

The problem with heat sinks is that they have limited storage capacity. A solar plant relying on back-up heat might (depending on size) be able to run for a night but would not be able to sustain the plant's energy production much longer than that.

Geothermal is a constant and reliable source of heat 24/7/365. Geothermal is a good and clean source of energy but doesn't require solar to operate. Given that this thread is about solar energy it seems you would have to admit that solar needs a constant source of energy production like hydro, nuclear or geothermal to work. Too funny.

It's so cute how you wilfully mislead. You know that I was talking about Chena because of their refrigerant generators. Remember how I was talking about them being able to be used at night in solar thermal plants, running off of the stored excess heat from the sun in layered salt tanks? Off delta T [change in temperature from warm to very cold] Of course you remember that!

But yes, geothermal is another excellent source of turbine power. Especially if, like Chena demonstrated, you can use lower-heat sources to run turbines like what they're doing at Chena.

It's those low-temp turbine systems I was talking about to reduce carbon use even more at solar thermal plants. Try not to mislead so grotesquely next time.

Hey genius, Power plants costing hundreds of millions or even a billion dollars and take up hundreds of acres are not practical.

 

[Silhouette]

Hey genius, Power plants costing hundreds of millions or even a billion dollars and take up hundreds of acres are not practical.

Then you will quickly be objecting to carbon and nuclear power because of all the costs associated with pollution of collecting coal and oil [and the thousands of square miles, rivers & aquifers damaged because of that mining] and having to keep burning it, dumping CO2 into the atmosphere which is destablizing weather to dangerous extremes...and the costs of not just hundreds of acres with nuclear, but when things go wrong, tens of thousands of square miles are rendered uninhabitable forever.

I'll take the cheapest solution of all: solar thermal parabolic mirrors with linear tubes heating water from the free sunshine. From what I understand, these simple to make mirrors go up like an erector set overnight. Nuclear and coal plants take FOREVER to construct and even longer to permit..you know...because of all that anticipated danger to humans and the environment from their operation.. Economist did the math on nuclear and said they never turn a profit...ever. That they've been existing from taxpayer subsidies since day one.

 

[HenryBHough]

The California State University System has a department feverishly developing the generation of electricity through rubbing multiple cats together.

The University of California System has a department training undergraduates in the art of unionizing cats.

See the problem?

 

[flacaltenn]

Hey genius, Power plants costing hundreds of millions or even a billion dollars and take up hundreds of acres are not practical.

Then you will quickly be objecting to carbon and nuclear power because of all the costs associated with pollution of collecting coal and oil [and the thousands of square miles, rivers & aquifers damaged because of that mining] and having to keep burning it, dumping CO2 into the atmosphere which is destablizing weather to dangerous extremes...and the costs of not just hundreds of acres with nuclear, but when things go wrong, tens of thousands of square miles are rendered uninhabitable forever.

I'll take the cheapest solution of all: solar thermal parabolic mirrors with linear tubes heating water from the free sunshine. From what I understand, these simple to make mirrors go up like an erector set overnight. Nuclear and coal plants take FOREVER to construct and even longer to permit..you know...because of all that anticipated danger to humans and the environment from their operation.. Economist did the math on nuclear and said they never turn a profit...ever. That they've been existing from taxpayer subsidies since day one.

All those nuclear plants "economically analyzed" saw their DAY ONE on the drawing boards in the 1960s.. If we applied 50 yr old economic analysis to ATMs or electric cars or virtual classrooms --- none of those things would be economically feasible today..

 

[asterism]

Hey genius, Power plants costing hundreds of millions or even a billion dollars and take up hundreds of acres are not practical.

Then you will quickly be objecting to carbon and nuclear power because of all the costs associated with pollution of collecting coal and oil [and the thousands of square miles, rivers & aquifers damaged because of that mining] and having to keep burning it, dumping CO2 into the atmosphere which is destablizing weather to dangerous extremes...and the costs of not just hundreds of acres with nuclear, but when things go wrong, tens of thousands of square miles are rendered uninhabitable forever.

I'll take the cheapest solution of all: solar thermal parabolic mirrors with linear tubes heating water from the free sunshine. From what I understand, these simple to make mirrors go up like an erector set overnight. Nuclear and coal plants take FOREVER to construct and even longer to permit..you know...because of all that anticipated danger to humans and the environment from their operation.. Economist did the math on nuclear and said they never turn a profit...ever. That they've been existing from taxpayer subsidies since day one.

You say cheaper, but you don't post cost data.

So......

 

[thereisnospoon]

Hey genius, Power plants costing hundreds of millions or even a billion dollars and take up hundreds of acres are not practical.

Then you will quickly be objecting to carbon and nuclear power because of all the costs associated with pollution of collecting coal and oil [and the thousands of square miles, rivers & aquifers damaged because of that mining] and having to keep burning it, dumping CO2 into the atmosphere which is destablizing weather to dangerous extremes...and the costs of not just hundreds of acres with nuclear, but when things go wrong, tens of thousands of square miles are rendered uninhabitable forever.

I'll take the cheapest solution of all: solar thermal parabolic mirrors with linear tubes heating water from the free sunshine. From what I understand, these simple to make mirrors go up like an erector set overnight. Nuclear and coal plants take FOREVER to construct and even longer to permit..you know...because of all that anticipated danger to humans and the environment from their operation.. Economist did the math on nuclear and said they never turn a profit...ever. That they've been existing from taxpayer subsidies since day one.

Just admit two things
One, you are a committed single issue anti fossil fuel person.
Two. You believe we could implement your fart gas, leaf spinach, sunshine forever energy ideas NOW....And to do this, you wish the use of all fossil fuels to end NOW...
Right.
Your hero Obama believes the same nonsense. And in order to further his agenda, he will ram it down our throats.
Yeah well guess what tree hugger, fossil fuels are here to stay. Oil is the economic lubricant which keeps this country and the world moving.
As long as you anti fossil fuel people keep using fossil fuels and enjoying the modern conveniences of fossil fuels, you should just shut up.
Newsflash....EVERYTHING pollutes. And the Earth cleanses itself.
Look, if you want a crusade, go to China and ***** at them.

 

[thereisnospoon]

Hey genius, Power plants costing hundreds of millions or even a billion dollars and take up hundreds of acres are not practical.

Then you will quickly be objecting to carbon and nuclear power because of all the costs associated with pollution of collecting coal and oil [and the thousands of square miles, rivers & aquifers damaged because of that mining] and having to keep burning it, dumping CO2 into the atmosphere which is destablizing weather to dangerous extremes...and the costs of not just hundreds of acres with nuclear, but when things go wrong, tens of thousands of square miles are rendered uninhabitable forever.

I'll take the cheapest solution of all: solar thermal parabolic mirrors with linear tubes heating water from the free sunshine. From what I understand, these simple to make mirrors go up like an erector set overnight. Nuclear and coal plants take FOREVER to construct and even longer to permit..you know...because of all that anticipated danger to humans and the environment from their operation.. Economist did the math on nuclear and said they never turn a profit...ever. That they've been existing from taxpayer subsidies since day one.

You say cheaper, but you don't post cost data.

So......

Oh no....We're just supposed to accept it.
Do not question the liberal.