First Hyrbid Solar Thermal Power Plant In Florida!!

[Spiderman]

You talk about fright campaigns and that is exactly your position on nuclear.

You say you're all about the future yet you compare molten salt reactors to Chernobyl.

Solar is a fine supplemental energy source but that is all it is. We should relegate it to all of the open acreage we have in the form of south and southwest facing roof tops and stop thinking about defiling our deserts and open spaces with these inefficient monstrosities that only work for part of the day.

Our best option for abundant emission free power is nuclear.

 

[asterism]

No comment from Silhouette on how wrong he was on the size of the solar arrays - typical.

 

[Spiderman]

No comment from Silhouette on how wrong he was on the size of the solar arrays - typical.

And the point that sailed over her head is that more than the arrays themselves are needed to supply power. The size of the entire complex is what matters not just the arrays and the complex has to include fossil fuel generation because solar only works for a part of the day.

If we scale up the 500 acre per 11000 homes ratio we can easily figure out how much land is needed for any number of homes or households.

As I said before to supply the 9 million households in FL using the plant discussed in this thread as a model 400000 acres of land would be needed.

 

[asterism]

No comment from Silhouette on how wrong he was on the size of the solar arrays - typical.

And the point that sailed over her head is that more than the arrays themselves are needed to supply power. The size of the entire complex is what matters not just the arrays and the complex has to include fossil fuel generation because solar only works for a part of the day.

If we scale up the 500 acre per 11000 homes ratio we can easily figure out how much land is needed for any number of homes or households.

As I said before to supply the 9 million households in FL using the plant discussed in this thread as a model 400000 acres of land would be needed.

Silhouette's points about size and savings would be valid if the information posted was accurate, but it's not. It's not even close.

 

[Silhouette]

You talk about fright campaigns and that is exactly your position on nuclear.

Guilty as charged, because when a solar concentrating mirror fails, all you do is clean it or replace it. When a nuclear plant fails...well...fear is an excellent thing to consider. And it can get to this point by your molten salt reactors leaking into underground aquifers used for drinking water or agriculture. Those aquifers are not closed systems. Just because the radiation isn't raining down from the sky, doesn't mean it can't ruin species.

Did you know they've done studies on Chernobyl that show that not just the first generation come up with malformities, but that these malformities then pass on to multiple generations and actually create a new genetic blueprint for the animal? And as these animals mate with healthy ones from their own species, the radiation mutations pass on even still?

Talk about damage and legitimate fear. If you can't get afraid about that, you can't get afraid about anything.

 

[whitehall]

The word is "hybrid" not hyrbid. The science of biology defines a "hybrid" as the offspring from cross breeding. It's a clever use of semantics to refer to a solar plant as a hybrid solar plant. The reason is that solar energy can't stand on it's own so it needs fossil fuel to run the junk but they don't want to talk about it. I guess the environmental impact and pollution standards are waived for the ironically named "green energy" plants. I wonder how long this one will produce the piddling energy without taxpayer funding.

 

[Andylusion]

Guilty as charged, because when a solar concentrating mirror fails, all you do is clean it or replace it. When a nuclear plant fails...well...fear is an excellent thing to consider. And it can get to this point by your molten salt reactors leaking into underground aquifers used for drinking water or agriculture. Those aquifers are not closed systems. Just because the radiation isn't raining down from the sky, doesn't mean it can't ruin species.

Did you know they've done studies on Chernobyl that show that not just the first generation come up with malformities, but that these malformities then pass on to multiple generations and actually create a new genetic blueprint for the animal? And as these animals mate with healthy ones from their own species, the radiation mutations pass on even still?

Talk about damage and legitimate fear. If you can't get afraid about that, you can't get afraid about anything.

I have a bunch of problems with that. First everyone goes straight to Chernobyl, and there's a reason... it was the *ONLY* nuclear disaster to cause the damage and devastation seen there. And there's a reason for that........ It was a KNOWN design flaw, with Communist Party officials overriding the standard safety procedures.

Modern nuclear reactors can't 'explode' like Chernobyl, even if they intentionally tried to do it. Further, private companies don't have government nimrods overriding the safety locks on nuclear reactors.

But all of that aside.....

The difference between you and me, I think.... is that I accept the limitations of reality and so-called renewable energy, as well as the absolute requirement for power in modern human existence.

You don't seem to grasp this. Maybe you do, and are hiding it well, because it's not coming through your posts.

Modern human life can't continue without stable consistent, provisions of power. No power, no jobs, no food, no heat, no communications. Millions on millions of people will die without massive stable quantities of power.

There is no so-called 'green-renewable' energy that provides even a fraction of the power we need, with the stability and consistency we need.

And there will never be any technological advancement, enough to over come those limitations, at least not within the next several thousand years.

In any given amount of wind, there is limited amount of energy. In any given amount of sun light, there is a limited amount of energy. No matter how efficient you make the conversion process, it will never produce much, because there simply isn't much to be produced to begin with.

Even the most stable and most productive 'green-renewable' source, being hydro power, is still not a good solution. Do you want nation wide black outs, that Venezuela is having, because they rely only on Hydro power?

That leaves Coal, Oil, NatGas, and Nuclear. Now if you believe as most do, that Coal, Oil, and Gas will be used up at some point...... What is your solution?

There is only one magic power source. Nuclear. Urainium, is the magic fuel, followed by Thorium. Using reprocessing, and breeder reactors, we can use this fuel over and over and over again. We can generate trillions of TeraWatts of power.

Long after all other sources have been used up, nuclear *WILL* be the worlds source of power.

Now you can fight it all you want, but we'll end up like Germany, buying power from nuclear power plants in France. And we'll end up buying power from those who embrace Nuclear power just the same, because nuclear is the future whether you like it or not.

And no, we are not going to simply make due, with less power. You saw what happens when people don't get their electricity. People in California went nutz when the lights went out. New Yorkers were going crazy with anger, during the black out.

That's not going to happen. People are going to get their power, and when Green-Renewable power doesn't deliver, and it's not delivering..... they are going to get Nuclear. I promise you, it's coming, and there's not one thing any of us can do to stop it.

 

[Andylusion]

Martin Next Generation Clean Energy Center

At this first-of-its-kind “hybrid” solar facility in the world, we’ve teamed up Florida’s sunshine with affordable, American-produced natural gas to deliver reliable electricity to you around the clock. When the sun is shining, we use more than 190,000 mirrors over roughly 500 acres to harness Florida’s sunshine. The sun’s rays heat fluid-filled tubes, producing steam, which generates electricity for your home or business. At night or when it’s cloudy, U.S. natural gas steps in to continue producing clean electricity for you as featured in this video from America's Natural Gas Alliance. The facility opened in 2010 and can produce enough electricity to power about 11,000 homes. It also prevents greenhouse gases from entering the atmosphere every year – the equivalent of removing nearly 13,000 cars from the road.

FPL | Solar Projects

It seems you aren't following this technology much. The article you linked is almost three years old.

and can produce enough electricity to power about 11,000 homes

But... it doesn't. Go read up on it. It doesn't produce that much. That's how much it "CAN" produce, but it doesn't. According to the estimates, it's running at about 20% of it's production capacity. Meaning, it's only making enough power for 2,000 homes.

But it cost twice as much as a conventional power plant that actually would make enough power for 11,000 homes.

Twice as much money, for something that produces a tiny amount of power. Not a good trade.

 

[Spiderman]

You talk about fright campaigns and that is exactly your position on nuclear.

Guilty as charged, because when a solar concentrating mirror fails, all you do is clean it or replace it. When a nuclear plant fails...well...fear is an excellent thing to consider. And it can get to this point by your molten salt reactors leaking into underground aquifers used for drinking water or agriculture. Those aquifers are not closed systems. Just because the radiation isn't raining down from the sky, doesn't mean it can't ruin species.

Did you know they've done studies on Chernobyl that show that not just the first generation come up with malformities, but that these malformities then pass on to multiple generations and actually create a new genetic blueprint for the animal? And as these animals mate with healthy ones from their own species, the radiation mutations pass on even still?

Talk about damage and legitimate fear. If you can't get afraid about that, you can't get afraid about anything.

Again you show your ignorance of the technology.

Tell me how can you say you are for new technology yet you purposely ignore the differences between old and new nuclear reactor technology?

There have been many posts explaining molten salt reactors and their benefits as well as safety yet you insist on equating them with Chernobyl.

Why do you choose ignorance?

 

[Spiderman]

Martin Next Generation Clean Energy Center

At this first-of-its-kind “hybrid” solar facility in the world, we’ve teamed up Florida’s sunshine with affordable, American-produced natural gas to deliver reliable electricity to you around the clock. When the sun is shining, we use more than 190,000 mirrors over roughly 500 acres to harness Florida’s sunshine. The sun’s rays heat fluid-filled tubes, producing steam, which generates electricity for your home or business. At night or when it’s cloudy, U.S. natural gas steps in to continue producing clean electricity for you as featured in this video from America's Natural Gas Alliance. The facility opened in 2010 and can produce enough electricity to power about 11,000 homes. It also prevents greenhouse gases from entering the atmosphere every year – the equivalent of removing nearly 13,000 cars from the road.

FPL | Solar Projects

It seems you aren't following this technology much. The article you linked is almost three years old.

and can produce enough electricity to power about 11,000 homes

But... it doesn't. Go read up on it. It doesn't produce that much. That's how much it "CAN" produce, but it doesn't. According to the estimates, it's running at about 20% of it's production capacity. Meaning, it's only making enough power for 2,000 homes.

But it cost twice as much as a conventional power plant that actually would make enough power for 11,000 homes.

Twice as much money, for something that produces a tiny amount of power. Not a good trade.

Good point.

Solar and wind capacity are nominal numbers. Actual output is usually a fraction of that.

 

[thereisnospoon]

You talk about fright campaigns and that is exactly your position on nuclear.

You say you're all about the future yet you compare molten salt reactors to Chernobyl.

Solar is a fine supplemental energy source but that is all it is. We should relegate it to all of the open acreage we have in the form of south and southwest facing roof tops and stop thinking about defiling our deserts and open spaces with these inefficient monstrosities that only work for part of the day.

Our best option for abundant emission free power is nuclear.

There is no sense arguing with this bimbo....
A zealot of the lefty religion of 'green' everything.

 

[thereisnospoon]

You know, I've been blogging about this for years and they FINALLY DID IT!! [I'm so excited that I misspelled "Hybrid" in the title!!]

Whoot Whoot! There may be hope after all. The stupid..the stupid is wearing off...our nation maybe, just maybe, has a fighting chance.

It is precisely the perfect combination to ease out of our manic addiction to fossil fuels.

Well done gentlemen...well done...

Now get to work on about 1,000 more of those and we'll be back in the saddle again. Just do me a favor though, name just one of them the "Silhouette" power plant!...lol.. Reallly, gawd, it took like 5 years of blogging and exposing this technology for a power company to finally say, "hey, we'd like to charge the same amount to our customers but only have to pay for carbon for 30 days out of each year."

Duh! DO THE MATH $$$$ These guys are going to cleeeeeaaaan up at the bank.

For those who won't visit the link, the plant I've been urging for at least 5 years is one of parabolic mirrors that track the sun and focus it on a central elevated tube of thermal oil that gets up to 300 degrees celsius. That's way way hotter than boiling water. Then they use heat exchangers to boil water that runs turbines just like at every other conventional power plant. They don't have the salt tanks for night storage, but because for financial reasons the petroleum industry needs to be slowly weaned, they've opted to run the turbines at night with natural gas. The option to store heat in molten salt tanks still exists though and to run lower heat refrigerant boilers at night.

But this is an excellent start.





...

You've been blogging about this for years and just this month you noticed this facility?

Martin Next Generation Clean Energy Center

At this first-of-its-kind “hybrid” solar facility in the world, we’ve teamed up Florida’s sunshine with affordable, American-produced natural gas to deliver reliable electricity to you around the clock. When the sun is shining, we use more than 190,000 mirrors over roughly 500 acres to harness Florida’s sunshine. The sun’s rays heat fluid-filled tubes, producing steam, which generates electricity for your home or business. At night or when it’s cloudy, U.S. natural gas steps in to continue producing clean electricity for you as featured in this video from America's Natural Gas Alliance. The facility opened in 2010 and can produce enough electricity to power about 11,000 homes. It also prevents greenhouse gases from entering the atmosphere every year – the equivalent of removing nearly 13,000 cars from the road.

FPL | Solar Projects

It seems you aren't following this technology much. The article you linked is almost three years old.

I've been blogging about it since jeeze...2005 or 2006, around there. I hadn't been keeping up on what was going on because frankly, I thought that the carbon moguls would beat it back as usual with their typical "fright-campaigns" and "designed to fail" foils. You see it here in this thread talking about all manner of "scary" things associated with concave mirrors concentrating the sun. My favorite is how many acres it takes up, when you have to wonder how many acres a year are fouled or stip mined in the pursuit of mining coal, oil and natural gas..lol..

I just have to pinch myself to not laugh about that one. Oh, and my second favorite, how more shade in the desert [where you find the most life concentrated naturally there] will somehow result in a decline of species there.

"you've been blogging? To whom?
Stop trying to impress yourself.

 

[thereisnospoon]

No comment from Silhouette on how wrong he was on the size of the solar arrays - typical.

I think 'he ; is a 'she'.....Not surprising given the emotional aspect of the her posts.

 

[thereisnospoon]

No comment from Silhouette on how wrong he was on the size of the solar arrays - typical.

And the point that sailed over her head is that more than the arrays themselves are needed to supply power. The size of the entire complex is what matters not just the arrays and the complex has to include fossil fuel generation because solar only works for a part of the day.

If we scale up the 500 acre per 11000 homes ratio we can easily figure out how much land is needed for any number of homes or households.

As I said before to supply the 9 million households in FL using the plant discussed in this thread as a model 400000 acres of land would be needed.

625 square miles. 2/3rds the size of Duval County. Where lies within, the nation's largest municipality in total area, Jacksonville, FL.

 

[HenryBHough]

Simple enough.

Just take all the private property in Jacksonville, bulldoze it and pop up death-ray mirrors. Eminent Domain, of course, so the cost to government to seize the property and then do a sweetheart deal with a power giant ought to be minimal.

Supreme court has already called that Kosher.

See "New London".

 

[flacaltenn]

Hey. Its all interesting from a science / engineering standpoint. But it aint an ALTERNATIVE. its an expensive daytime supplement.. if you look at Cali statistics, user load at 10PM is 80% of daytime peak in the summer. That means that daytime peaking with more than 10 or 15% solar is way too much.

I agree that at 1st glance, trying to focus into a single beam LOOKS like overdesign. But the prob with MARTIN type of thermal solar is the miles of plumbing that is exposed so thatthermodynamically, its LOSING a whole crapload of heat as it winds thru the mirror field.
My bet is that the Tower concept is 2 or 3 times more efficient per acre of mirrors.. Especially on those cold frosty days.. Maybe the ONLY place you get away with that much exposed plumbing would be Florida.

The Tower concept is a pile of crap and you know it. Now you're just flat out lying.

The oil in the pipe will lose some heat from the 300 degrees celsius it reaches on its way to the heat exchangers/turbines? Good. Wouldn't want to stress the welds too much before that searing hot oil reaches the heat exchangers.

"plumbing that is exposed..." Ever hear of insulation?...lol Nice try... Next?

I could be mistaken. But I never lie on a public message board.. Yes.. I've heard of insulation, but I also know insulation works in both directions. So since the majority of piping is in the active mirror area, that's not a solution..

You've got this completely bass-ackwards..

Towers versus troughs? | CSP Today

Towers have the potential to be much more efficient than troughs, because they have far higher concentration ratios (300 to 800 suns vs. 80 or so for troughs), according to Craig Tyner, senior vice president of engineering at e-Solar.
While troughs produce heat at around 400 degree Celsius, towers can produce up to 550 degree Celsius. “Higher temperatures allow use of more efficient turbines, reducing energy costs.
Towers also have the potential for more efficient storage using molten salt as their working fluid, as well as the storage fluid,” says Tyner.
Tyner notes that while troughs have been built with salt storage, their lower temperature differential and need for oil/salt heat exchange make their storage much more costly and somewhat less efficient.

Solar thermal energy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The advantage of this design above the parabolic trough design is the higher temperature. Thermal energy at higher temperatures can be converted to electricity more efficiently and can be more cheaply stored for later use. Furthermore, there is less need to flatten the ground area. In principle a power tower can be built on the side of a hill. Mirrors can be flat and plumbing is concentrated in the tower. The disadvantage is that each mirror must have its own dual-axis control, while in the parabolic trough design single axis tracking can be shared for a large array of mirrors.
A cost/performance comparison between power tower and parabolic trough concentrators was made by the NREL which estimated that by 2020 electricity could be produced from power towers for 5.47 ¢/kWh and for 6.21 ¢/kWh from parabolic troughs. The capacity factor for power towers was estimated to be 72.9% and 56.2% for parabolic troughs.[32] There is some hope that the development of cheap, durable, mass producible heliostat power plant components could bring this cost down

I found that parabolic thermal is about 200KWatt/Acre.. Still looking for verified number for solar tower..

 

[flacaltenn]

I love the way solar nuts bash big oil.. For a great many years, BP was the world's largest system installer of Solar PV. And here MANY of Silhouette's favorite concentrated solar thermal projects are being paid for and USED BY names like Chevron and Exxon. AS THOUGH, oil had ANYTHING to do with generating electricity...

 

[asterism]

You've been blogging about this for years and just this month you noticed this facility?




FPL | Solar Projects

It seems you aren't following this technology much. The article you linked is almost three years old.

I've been blogging about it since jeeze...2005 or 2006, around there. I hadn't been keeping up on what was going on because frankly, I thought that the carbon moguls would beat it back as usual with their typical "fright-campaigns" and "designed to fail" foils. You see it here in this thread talking about all manner of "scary" things associated with concave mirrors concentrating the sun. My favorite is how many acres it takes up, when you have to wonder how many acres a year are fouled or stip mined in the pursuit of mining coal, oil and natural gas..lol..

I just have to pinch myself to not laugh about that one. Oh, and my second favorite, how more shade in the desert [where you find the most life concentrated naturally there] will somehow result in a decline of species there.

"you've been blogging? To whom?
Stop trying to impress yourself.

He or she is claiming credit for a solar installation that started before she was even aware of the technology, then she just noticed an article about one opening almost four years ago.

 

[Silhouette]

He or she is claiming credit for a solar installation that started before she was even aware of the technology, then she just noticed an article about one opening almost four years ago.

Are you done with your strawman?

I'm not bashing BigOil. I'm perfectly happy, for instance, to not discuss the saline tanks that could store the solar thermal energy collected during the day and run refrigerant generators at night and be nearly completely weaned from oil and coal. [nuclear water boilers are completely off the table].

No, I expressed happiness that solar thermal has kept on the largely unnecessary carbon sources so that this industry can still have somewhat of a toehold on boiling water too.

I mean, if you want to talk about those saline tanks and how they are capable of trapping and storing hours of heat energy for use at night to make power then, sure, we can go there. Just don't accuse me of being anti-carbon. You're forgetting about plastics, automobiles and the like that will always be a use for petrolium products.

 

[asterism]

He or she is claiming credit for a solar installation that started before she was even aware of the technology, then she just noticed an article about one opening almost four years ago.

Are you done with your strawman?

I'm not bashing BigOil. I'm perfectly happy, for instance, to not discuss the saline tanks that could store the solar thermal energy collected during the day and run refrigerant generators at night and be nearly completely weaned from oil and coal. [nuclear water boilers are completely off the table].

No, I expressed happiness that solar thermal has kept on the largely unnecessary carbon sources so that this industry can still have somewhat of a toehold on boiling water too.

I mean, if you want to talk about those saline tanks and how they are capable of trapping and storing hours of heat energy for use at night to make power then, sure, we can go there. Just don't accuse me of being anti-carbon. You're forgetting about plastics, automobiles and the like that will always be a use for petrolium products.

I think you're having a problem keeping up. I never accused you of anything listed above. I've said that you are inaccurate and unable to provide financial data but advocate a financial investment, claiming that it will be profitable.

So tell me about those saline tanks. How much do they cost?