Fair Tax vs. Flat Tax

[rtwngAvngr]

Please.

Think it through p. There's no link to all logical conclusions. we're looking at potential control factors that are logically necessitated by the fair tax, and their potential for abuse.

 

[Mr. P]

Think it through p. There's no link to all logical conclusions. we're looking at potential control factors that are logically necessitated by the fair tax, and their potential for abuse.

Yeah, speculation and tinfoil hat stuff..got it.
:read:

 

[rtwngAvngr]

Yeah, speculation and tinfoil hat stuff..got it.
:read:

How are they going to tie every retail purchase to you, p. To all of us, individually? The plan requires this. Are you going to have people give their account numbers verbally on each transaction? Don't you see problems with that?

 

[rtwngAvngr]

Why do people hate opening their minds to all sides of a situation so much? Things people don't want to think about become "tinfoil hat stuff". Sad.

 

[rtwngAvngr]

P? P? You there? *tap* *tap* *tap* Is this thing on?

 

[Mr. P]

How are they going to tie every retail purchase to you, p. To all of us, individually? The plan requires this. Are you going to have people give their account numbers verbally on each transaction? Don't you see problems with that?

The plan does not require ID from the consumer..Only collection of tax from the retailer.

 

[Hobbit]

Which one is lower? Which one involves less government in my life?

Also, "Fair Tax" is a terrible misnomer. The only fair tax is an optional one. Just because the government is doing the stealing does not make it fair.

The U.S. government tried running itself as a charity organization for a while, and failed miserably. The truth is that if we want roads, national defense, law enforcement, and many other privileges the government gives us, you have to accept taxes. Most people don't care, so taxes have to be made law or else the government will go broke.

How are they going to tie every retail purchase to you, p. To all of us, individually? The plan requires this. Are you going to have people give their account numbers verbally on each transaction? Don't you see problems with that?

Huh? Why would they have to tie every retail purchase to everyone? The just charge the company according to their sales figures and the rebate checks are not based on what *you* personally buy, but on official figures showing what the average person spends on basic necessities such as food, rent, utilities, etc.

 

[rtwngAvngr]

Huh? Why would they have to tie every retail purchase to everyone? The just charge the company according to their sales figures and the rebate checks are not based on what *you* personally buy, but on official figures showing what the average person spends on basic necessities such as food, rent, utilities, etc.

Maybe you're right. Sorry p. I was thinking of something else.

Rwa inserts foot in mouth. Mark it on your calendars.

 

[ScreamingEagle]

Maybe you're right. Sorry p. I was thinking of something else.

Rwa inserts foot in mouth. Mark it on your calendars.

Maybe you were thinking of another problem with the Fair Tax program: the potential for people to cheat by getting their goods wholesale instead of paying for them retail.

How is the government going to regulate the difference between sales that are wholesale vs. retail? The potential for avoiding the retail sales tax is going to be huge.

For example, I could see a person setting up a business (or three) and then purchasing most of their goods through a business on a wholesale basis. For instance, why not purchase a SUV through a business that needs a vehicle? The fact that the owner will drive it everywhere he needs to go including non-business trips is going to be very hard for the government to monitor...unless monstrous government oversight is set up to watch your every move...

 

[elephant]

The Fair tax is fair and it's not a misnomer, you pay tax on what you buy, your choice. Don't buy don't pay, buy little pay little, buy alot pay alot. Pretty simple and very Fair.

If I want to buy something from you how is it fair that we have to pay a tax to complete this transaction? This is not fair at all. We are two private parties exchanging for mutual benefit. How did the government get involved?

It is the tax itself that is unfair - not how it is collected.

Taxes are theft.

 

[elephant]

The U.S. government tried running itself as a charity organization for a while, and failed miserably. The truth is that if we want roads, national defense, law enforcement, and many other privileges the government gives us, you have to accept taxes. Most people don't care, so taxes have to be made law or else the government will go broke.

Actually, the governement worked just fine before Lincoln.

Roads, defense, law enforcement, etc are provided better privately. Taxes are an inefficient way of providing me services I may not want and giving power to people to which I do not want to give power.

The government does not give me any "privileges". It forces me to pay for crappy services I do not want.

Screw the people who do not care - let them rot.

Oh no! The government will go broke. How will we pay the tax collectors? Who will write the tax code? How could we ever live without "the war on drugs"? Who would enforce minimum wage and environmental standards? It sounds soooooo terrible - please say it will never happen!! Will welfare recipients have to get jobs? Please stop the torture! Next you will tell me lobbyists will be starving in the streets.

 

[Fmr jarhead]

The government has also MADE you pay for the following, as well, with the passing of the Highway Bill (already signed and approved) $252,881,520 of our cash going to special interest projects that should be handled by local jurisdictions, not federally funded.

$48,000,000 Replace and reconstruct South Capitol Street/Frederick Douglass Memorial Bridge (DC)

$40,000,000 PATCO Rolling Stock acquisition and/or renovation for use on line between Lindenwold and Locust Street (Philadelphia, New Jersey)

$16,800,000 Construct a tunnel as part of the Bremerton Pedestrian-Bremerton Transportation Center Access Improvement project (WA)

$14,000,000 Improve marine intermodal facilities in Ketchikan (AK)

$5,000,000 City of Robstown Trade Processing and Inland Center (TX)

$5,000,000 Road and transportation improvements near the Brooklyn Children’s Museum (Brooklyn, New York)

$5,000,000 Improve air quality in the Sacramento region, Sacramento Area Council of Governments (California)

$5,000,000 Completion of the first of three phases of trails in the Regional Trails Program (Oregon)

$5,000,000 University of Oklahoma, to conduct research on global tracking methods for intermodal containerized freight (Norman, Oklahoma)

$4,000,000 U.S. Route 13 Corridor Reconstruction, Redevelopment and Beautification,
Bucks County (PA)

$4,000,000 Develop bicycle paths and public park space adjacent to the New River (Calexico, California)

$4,000,000 Reconstruction of Ashburton Avenue (Yonkers, New York)

$4,000,000 Streetscape, Pedestrian Improvements in City Center, City of Clarkson (GA)

$3,600,000 Independence National Historic Park scenic enhancement and pedestrian walkways improvement project in conjunction with the park’s Executive Mansion Exhibit

$3,400,000 National Park Service transportation improvements to Historic Jamestowne (VA)

$3,200,000 Construct Phase 2 of the Jones Falls Trail from Baltimore Penn Station to the Maryland Science Center on the Inner Harbor (MD)

$300,000 Complete heritage tourism work plans for communities along SR 6 (PA)

$3,000,000 Middle Fork Willamette River Path, Springfield (OR)

$3,000,000 Cedar Lake Regional Trail, Minneapolis (MN)

$2,880,000 Delta Ponds Bike/Pedestrian Path (OR)

$2,800,000 Construct bicycle/pedestrian path and facilities in the Central park area of Madison (WI)

$2,800,000 West Ridge Nature Preserve, Chicago (IL)

$2,750,000 Renovate and expand the National Packard Museum and adjacent historic Packard facilities (Warren, Ohio)

$2,500,000 Bury the power lines at India Point (Rhode Island)

$2,480,000 Construct bike/pedestrian paths, Chicago (IL)

$2,400,000 Red River National Wildlife Refuge Visitor Center (LA)

$2,400,000 National Infantry Museum Transportation Network

$2,320,000 Will add landscaping enhancements along the Ronald Reagan

Freeway Route 118 for aesthetic purposes (CA)

$2,240,000 Improvements to Intermodal Transportation Facility and Construction of Waterfront Esplanade at Fort Totten (NY)

$2,000,000 Construct an intermodal center at the Philadelphia Zoo (PA)

$2,000,000 Roadway, pedestrian, and streetscape improvements for the New Cassel Revitalization Project (North Hempstead, New York)

$2,000,000 Construction of a parking facility at the University of the Incarnate Word (San Antonio, Texas)

$1,920,000 Construct bike path, parking facility, and related transportation enhancement projects, North Riverside (IL)

$1,800,000 Construct a visitor interpretive center at the Gray Fossil Site (Gray, Tennessee)

$1,600,000 Jersey City 6th Street Viaduct Pedestrian and Bicycle Pathway Project (NJ)

$1,600,000 Construct bicycle and pedestrian trains, Durham and Durham County (NC)

$1,600,000 Central Hall Recreation and Multi-Use Trail, Hall County (GA)

$1,600,000 Construct a bicycle/pedestrian path, and two bridges across Starkweather Creek (Madison, Wisconsin)

$1,600,000 Completion of the American Tobacco Trail (Durham and Chatham Counties, North Carolina)

$1,600,000 Street improvements, Abington Township (PA)

$1,500,000 Construct a bridge for the Paul Bunyan Trail over Excelsior Road (Baxter, Minnesota)

$1,500,000 Construction of pedestrian and bike trail campus improvements (St. Bonaventure, New York)

$1,300,000 Construct recreational visitor center on the Mesabi Trail, City of Virginia

$1,200,000 Blue Ridge Music Center install lighting/steps, upgrade existing trail system and equip interpretative center with visitor information (VA)

$1,120,000 Terry’s Corner Park and Ride on Camano Island (WA)

$1,000,000 Restoration of the Van Cortlandt Manor Entrance near Croton (NY)

$1,000,000 Improvements to access roads at the Please Touch Museum (Philadelphia, Pennsylvania)

$1,000,000 The Journey Through Hallowed Ground, Rt. 15, scenic corridor management planning and implementation, FY 2006 (Virginia)

$1,000,000 Construction and improvements from Rt. 60 to Mariners Museum and the USS Monitor Center (Virginia)

$1,000,000 Bristol Train Station--historic preservation and rehabilitation of former Bristol, VA train station (VA)

$960,000 Implement streetscape improvements on segments of Laurel Canyon Blvd. and Victory Blvd. in North Hollywood (CA)

$960,000 Extend the Sioux Falls Bike Trail to the Great Bear Recreation Area (SD)

$960,000 Transportation enhancements to Children’s Museum of Los Angeles (CA)

$878,080 Construct a pedestrian and bicycle bridge across TH 169, Onamia (MN)

$800,000 Powerline Rearvision motor carrier backover motor carrier safety research (FL)

$800,000 Construct a parking facility and improve museum pedestrian access from trolley station (San Diego, California)

$800,000 Construct Stone-Mountain-Lithonia road Bike Lane and Sidewalks, Dekalb County (GA)

$800,000 Fries Train Station and Trail restoration of former train station for use as visitors center and construction of trail along New River (VA)

$800,000 Construct Transportation and Heritage Museum in Townsend (TN)

$800,000 Improve access from I-8 and construct a parking lot for the Imperial Sand Dunes Recreation Area Visitor’s Center (Imperial Valley, California)

$800,000 Project will revitalize staircases used as streets due to steep grade of terrain in areas in which they are located, the Bronx (NY)

$800,000 Acquisition of land along CA 86 at the Desert Cahuilla Prehistoric Site, Imperial County for environmental mitigation related to reducing wildlife mortality while maintaining habitat connectivity (CA)

$800,000 Construct Hudson River Waterfront Walkway over Long Slip Canal Hoboken and Jersey City (NJ)

$750,000 Road Improvements and upgrades related to the Pennsylvania State Baseball
Stadium (PA)

$700,000 Construct a bicycle/pedestrian path and facilities in the Central Park area (Madison, Wisconsin)

$640,000 Court Street & Smith Street Shopping District Enhancements (NY)

$640,000 Extend bicycle trail system in Aberdeen (SD)

$640,000 Build additional staircases, landscape, and other improvements to the marsupial bridge at the Holton St. Viaduct in Milwaukee (WI)

$576,000 Construct bike/pedestrian paths, facilities and infrastructure improvements in Spring Rock Park, Western Springs Park District (IL)

$500,000 Restore and renovate for historic preservation the 1906 AB&A Railroad Building, Fitzgerald (GA)

$500,000 Restore and expand the Maritime Heritage site (Bristol, Rhode Island)

$471,000 Edge of Wilderness Discovery Center (Marcell, Minnesota)

$432,000 Establish transportation museum on Navy Pier, Chicago (IL)

$400,000 City of Sylvester Bicycle and Pedestrian Project (GA)

$400,000 Improve sidewalks, upgrade lighting, and add landscaping in downtown Glennville (GA)

$400,000 Uptown Jogging, Bicycle, Trolley Trail, Columbus (GA)

$320,000 Plan and construct a bicycle and pedestrian trail (Shelbyville, Tennessee)

$300,000 Construct a Welcome Center and pedestrian trail (Abbeville, Georgia)

$250,000 Construct pedestrian and vehicular access road to Riverfront Park (Glastonbury, Connecticut)

$200,000 Develop trails, bike paths, and recreational facilities on Brady Mountain, Cumberland County for Cumberland Trail State Park (Tennessee)

$200,000 Extend bike trail in Pine Ridge to the SuAnne Big Crow Boys & Girls Center (SD)

$186,000 Design and reconstruct residential streets (Muncie, Indiana)

$160,000 Construction of pedestrian and bike path adjacent to Tammany Trace Rails-to-Trails Corridor (LA)

$160,000 Pedestrian Improvements for Leeds (AL)

$100,000 Construction of a traffic signal at the intersection of Independence Avenue and Sherman Way (CA)

$80,000 Construction of pedestrian walkways in Village of Northport (NY)

$75,000 Complete construction of paths at Hamilton County Riverwalk (Noblesville, Indiana)

$33,440 Trolly Barn (Harrison, Arkansas)

 

[ScreamingEagle]

If I want to buy something from you how is it fair that we have to pay a tax to complete this transaction? This is not fair at all. We are two private parties exchanging for mutual benefit. How did the government get involved?

It is the tax itself that is unfair - not how it is collected.

Taxes are theft.

Taxes are not theft when they are voted in and appropriately used for the common good. National defense comes to mind. However I agree you can certainly make a case that much of our current taxation is "theft"... 50% of your earnings is gross theft imo. The tax rate was only 2% before FDR. But let's face the sad fact that it is doubtful we'll escape either death or taxes.

Actually how taxes are collected is what makes it fair or unfair in many ways. Washington DC is full of lobbyists trying to change the current mountains of tax laws to benefit their specific lobby as well as to get porky handouts.

Either the Fair Tax or the Flat Tax proposals will go a long way to eliminate much of the "theft", confusion, and waste that surrounds our current system as well as spark economic growth. By simplifing the tax system to either a flat tax on income or a retail sales tax, any change in the simplified tax rates will become quite transparent to the public and it will be more difficult for lobbyists or Congress to affect or increase the tax rates. I'm just not sure which method of collection would be the most "fair" or do the job better.

 

[Mr. P]

The government has also MADE you pay for the following, as well, with the passing of the Highway Bill (already signed and approved) $252,881,520 of our cash going to special interest projects that should be handled by local jurisdictions, not federally funded.

$48,000,000 Replace and reconstruct South Capitol Street/Frederick Douglass Memorial Bridge (DC)

$40,000,000 PATCO Rolling Stock acquisition and/or renovation for use on line between Lindenwold and Locust Street (Philadelphia, New Jersey)

$16,800,000 Construct a tunnel as part of the Bremerton Pedestrian-Bremerton Transportation Center Access Improvement project (WA)

$14,000,000 Improve marine intermodal facilities in Ketchikan (AK)

$5,000,000 City of Robstown Trade Processing and Inland Center (TX)

$5,000,000 Road and transportation improvements near the Brooklyn Children’s Museum (Brooklyn, New York)

$5,000,000 Improve air quality in the Sacramento region, Sacramento Area Council of Governments (California)

$5,000,000 Completion of the first of three phases of trails in the Regional Trails Program (Oregon)

$5,000,000 University of Oklahoma, to conduct research on global tracking methods for intermodal containerized freight (Norman, Oklahoma)

$4,000,000 U.S. Route 13 Corridor Reconstruction, Redevelopment and Beautification,
Bucks County (PA)

$4,000,000 Develop bicycle paths and public park space adjacent to the New River (Calexico, California)

$4,000,000 Reconstruction of Ashburton Avenue (Yonkers, New York)

$4,000,000 Streetscape, Pedestrian Improvements in City Center, City of Clarkson (GA)

$3,600,000 Independence National Historic Park scenic enhancement and pedestrian walkways improvement project in conjunction with the park’s Executive Mansion Exhibit

$3,400,000 National Park Service transportation improvements to Historic Jamestowne (VA)

$3,200,000 Construct Phase 2 of the Jones Falls Trail from Baltimore Penn Station to the Maryland Science Center on the Inner Harbor (MD)

$300,000 Complete heritage tourism work plans for communities along SR 6 (PA)

$3,000,000 Middle Fork Willamette River Path, Springfield (OR)

$3,000,000 Cedar Lake Regional Trail, Minneapolis (MN)

$2,880,000 Delta Ponds Bike/Pedestrian Path (OR)

$2,800,000 Construct bicycle/pedestrian path and facilities in the Central park area of Madison (WI)

$2,800,000 West Ridge Nature Preserve, Chicago (IL)

$2,750,000 Renovate and expand the National Packard Museum and adjacent historic Packard facilities (Warren, Ohio)

$2,500,000 Bury the power lines at India Point (Rhode Island)

$2,480,000 Construct bike/pedestrian paths, Chicago (IL)

$2,400,000 Red River National Wildlife Refuge Visitor Center (LA)

$2,400,000 National Infantry Museum Transportation Network

$2,320,000 Will add landscaping enhancements along the Ronald Reagan

Freeway Route 118 for aesthetic purposes (CA)

$2,240,000 Improvements to Intermodal Transportation Facility and Construction of Waterfront Esplanade at Fort Totten (NY)

$2,000,000 Construct an intermodal center at the Philadelphia Zoo (PA)

$2,000,000 Roadway, pedestrian, and streetscape improvements for the New Cassel Revitalization Project (North Hempstead, New York)

$2,000,000 Construction of a parking facility at the University of the Incarnate Word (San Antonio, Texas)

$1,920,000 Construct bike path, parking facility, and related transportation enhancement projects, North Riverside (IL)

$1,800,000 Construct a visitor interpretive center at the Gray Fossil Site (Gray, Tennessee)

$1,600,000 Jersey City 6th Street Viaduct Pedestrian and Bicycle Pathway Project (NJ)

$1,600,000 Construct bicycle and pedestrian trains, Durham and Durham County (NC)

$1,600,000 Central Hall Recreation and Multi-Use Trail, Hall County (GA)

$1,600,000 Construct a bicycle/pedestrian path, and two bridges across Starkweather Creek (Madison, Wisconsin)

$1,600,000 Completion of the American Tobacco Trail (Durham and Chatham Counties, North Carolina)

$1,600,000 Street improvements, Abington Township (PA)

$1,500,000 Construct a bridge for the Paul Bunyan Trail over Excelsior Road (Baxter, Minnesota)

$1,500,000 Construction of pedestrian and bike trail campus improvements (St. Bonaventure, New York)

$1,300,000 Construct recreational visitor center on the Mesabi Trail, City of Virginia

$1,200,000 Blue Ridge Music Center install lighting/steps, upgrade existing trail system and equip interpretative center with visitor information (VA)

$1,120,000 Terry’s Corner Park and Ride on Camano Island (WA)

$1,000,000 Restoration of the Van Cortlandt Manor Entrance near Croton (NY)

$1,000,000 Improvements to access roads at the Please Touch Museum (Philadelphia, Pennsylvania)

$1,000,000 The Journey Through Hallowed Ground, Rt. 15, scenic corridor management planning and implementation, FY 2006 (Virginia)

$1,000,000 Construction and improvements from Rt. 60 to Mariners Museum and the USS Monitor Center (Virginia)

$1,000,000 Bristol Train Station--historic preservation and rehabilitation of former Bristol, VA train station (VA)

$960,000 Implement streetscape improvements on segments of Laurel Canyon Blvd. and Victory Blvd. in North Hollywood (CA)

$960,000 Extend the Sioux Falls Bike Trail to the Great Bear Recreation Area (SD)

$960,000 Transportation enhancements to Children’s Museum of Los Angeles (CA)

$878,080 Construct a pedestrian and bicycle bridge across TH 169, Onamia (MN)

$800,000 Powerline Rearvision motor carrier backover motor carrier safety research (FL)

$800,000 Construct a parking facility and improve museum pedestrian access from trolley station (San Diego, California)

$800,000 Construct Stone-Mountain-Lithonia road Bike Lane and Sidewalks, Dekalb County (GA)

$800,000 Fries Train Station and Trail restoration of former train station for use as visitors center and construction of trail along New River (VA)

$800,000 Construct Transportation and Heritage Museum in Townsend (TN)

$800,000 Improve access from I-8 and construct a parking lot for the Imperial Sand Dunes Recreation Area Visitor’s Center (Imperial Valley, California)

$800,000 Project will revitalize staircases used as streets due to steep grade of terrain in areas in which they are located, the Bronx (NY)

$800,000 Acquisition of land along CA 86 at the Desert Cahuilla Prehistoric Site, Imperial County for environmental mitigation related to reducing wildlife mortality while maintaining habitat connectivity (CA)

$800,000 Construct Hudson River Waterfront Walkway over Long Slip Canal Hoboken and Jersey City (NJ)

$750,000 Road Improvements and upgrades related to the Pennsylvania State Baseball
Stadium (PA)

$700,000 Construct a bicycle/pedestrian path and facilities in the Central Park area (Madison, Wisconsin)

$640,000 Court Street & Smith Street Shopping District Enhancements (NY)

$640,000 Extend bicycle trail system in Aberdeen (SD)

$640,000 Build additional staircases, landscape, and other improvements to the marsupial bridge at the Holton St. Viaduct in Milwaukee (WI)

$576,000 Construct bike/pedestrian paths, facilities and infrastructure improvements in Spring Rock Park, Western Springs Park District (IL)

$500,000 Restore and renovate for historic preservation the 1906 AB&A Railroad Building, Fitzgerald (GA)

$500,000 Restore and expand the Maritime Heritage site (Bristol, Rhode Island)

$471,000 Edge of Wilderness Discovery Center (Marcell, Minnesota)

$432,000 Establish transportation museum on Navy Pier, Chicago (IL)

$400,000 City of Sylvester Bicycle and Pedestrian Project (GA)

$400,000 Improve sidewalks, upgrade lighting, and add landscaping in downtown Glennville (GA)

$400,000 Uptown Jogging, Bicycle, Trolley Trail, Columbus (GA)

$320,000 Plan and construct a bicycle and pedestrian trail (Shelbyville, Tennessee)

$300,000 Construct a Welcome Center and pedestrian trail (Abbeville, Georgia)

$250,000 Construct pedestrian and vehicular access road to Riverfront Park (Glastonbury, Connecticut)

$200,000 Develop trails, bike paths, and recreational facilities on Brady Mountain, Cumberland County for Cumberland Trail State Park (Tennessee)

$200,000 Extend bike trail in Pine Ridge to the SuAnne Big Crow Boys & Girls Center (SD)

$186,000 Design and reconstruct residential streets (Muncie, Indiana)

$160,000 Construction of pedestrian and bike path adjacent to Tammany Trace Rails-to-Trails Corridor (LA)

$160,000 Pedestrian Improvements for Leeds (AL)

$100,000 Construction of a traffic signal at the intersection of Independence Avenue and Sherman Way (CA)

$80,000 Construction of pedestrian walkways in Village of Northport (NY)

$75,000 Complete construction of paths at Hamilton County Riverwalk (Noblesville, Indiana)

$33,440 Trolly Barn (Harrison, Arkansas)

And that's not the pig, it's the sow with 50 tits!

 

[Mr. P]

Taxes are not theft when they are voted in and appropriately used for the common good. National defense comes to mind. However I agree you can certainly make a case that much of our current taxation is "theft"... 50% of your earnings is gross theft imo. The tax rate was only 2% before FDR. But let's face the sad fact that it is doubtful we'll escape either death or taxes.

Actually how taxes are collected is what makes it fair or unfair in many ways. Washington DC is full of lobbyists trying to change the current mountains of tax laws to benefit their specific lobby as well as to get porky handouts.

Either the Fair Tax or the Flat Tax proposals will go a long way to eliminate much of the "theft", confusion, and waste that surrounds our current system as well as spark economic growth. By simplifing the tax system to either a flat tax on income or a retail sales tax, any change in the simplified tax rates will become quite transparent to the public and it will be more difficult for lobbyists or Congress to affect or increase the tax rates. I'm just not sure which method of collection would be the most "fair" or do the job better.

I think we are in agreement that Flat or Fair would be an improvement over the current system.

I prefer Fair (I hate the term Fair, but)..I don't see Flat as being Fair.
Here's why, at a flat rate of 10%, If you make $100,000 and I make 10,000,
you pay $10,000 and I pay $1,000.. Now how much more do you benefit than I do for your
additional $9,000? Zip, zero? Yep, the asphalt/concrete on the interstate is the same under your tires as mine. I'm as safe in bed at night as you are. The environment is the same. The FDA, SEC, heck everything is the same...you get it...You're being punished at the tune of $9,000 cuz you are successful, that sux!
So that's my big problem with Flat vs Fair.. Flat is not much better than what we have now....IMO

 

[rtwngAvngr]

Maybe you were thinking of another problem with the Fair Tax program: the potential for people to cheat by getting their goods wholesale instead of paying for them retail.

How is the government going to regulate the difference between sales that are wholesale vs. retail? The potential for avoiding the retail sales tax is going to be huge.

For example, I could see a person setting up a business (or three) and then purchasing most of their goods through a business on a wholesale basis. For instance, why not purchase a SUV through a business that needs a vehicle? The fact that the owner will drive it everywhere he needs to go including non-business trips is going to be very hard for the government to monitor...unless monstrous government oversight is set up to watch your every move...

Yeah. I think that was it!

 

[Hobbit]

Actually, the governement worked just fine before Lincoln.

Roads, defense, law enforcement, etc are provided better privately. Taxes are an inefficient way of providing me services I may not want and giving power to people to which I do not want to give power.

The government does not give me any "privileges". It forces me to pay for crappy services I do not want.

Screw the people who do not care - let them rot.

Oh no! The government will go broke. How will we pay the tax collectors? Who will write the tax code? How could we ever live without "the war on drugs"? Who would enforce minimum wage and environmental standards? It sounds soooooo terrible - please say it will never happen!! Will welfare recipients have to get jobs? Please stop the torture! Next you will tell me lobbyists will be starving in the streets.

First off, there were federal taxes before income taxes. Lack of any federal tax ended while Washington was still in office. There has to be some source of federal income, especially since national defense is a raw necessity which is much better run on a national than a local scale. Do you really think a privately owned military would or could have handled WWII?

Second off, I don't argue that the government is spending a lot of money they shouldn't, but they should spend money on SOMETHING. I like the interstate system and would like it to stay the way it is. Also, it's part of national defense. I'd like the military to stay the same. I want the CIA, the FBI, and the Secret Service. I want funding to the 'artists' who sell 50 year old easy chairs and upside down, urine soaked crucifixes to stop.

 

[elephant]

First off, there were federal taxes before income taxes. Lack of any federal tax ended while Washington was still in office. There has to be some source of federal income, especially since national defense is a raw necessity which is much better run on a national than a local scale. Do you really think a privately owned military would or could have handled WWII?

There were tariffs and some states refused to pay federal taxes. One state even jailed federal tax collectors in the 1800's. So "taxes" were very different.

I think the colonies defeated the greatest empire on the planet. Individuals provided the defense not a central government.

You seem to blindly believe in the need for big government - it is called communism and I think most would agree it is brainwashing BS that does not work.

And yes.

Second off, I don't argue that the government is spending a lot of money they shouldn't, but they should spend money on SOMETHING. I like the interstate system and would like it to stay the way it is. Also, it's part of national defense. I'd like the military to stay the same. I want the CIA, the FBI, and the Secret Service. I want funding to the 'artists' who sell 50 year old easy chairs and upside down, urine soaked crucifixes to stop.

The highway system would be safer and have less traffic if it were private. Can you imagine if a private industry killed as many people as the federal highway system does?

The need for a centralized national defense is a myth.

What exactly are the FBI, CIA, and SS doing? Winning the war on drugs? Assembling information to stop terrorists from tumbling the World Trade Centers to the ground? NO and NO. Protecting politicians who only have power because of the enormous number of dollars they have stolen from the people they are sworn to protect? YES, that is it.

The government basically sucks at everything. Why do you think they do some things so well when every example of their total incompetence tells you the opposite?

 

[elephant]

Taxes are not theft when they are voted in and appropriately used for the common good. National defense comes to mind. However I agree you can certainly make a case that much of our current taxation is "theft"... 50% of your earnings is gross theft imo. The tax rate was only 2% before FDR. But let's face the sad fact that it is doubtful we'll escape either death or taxes.

Actually how taxes are collected is what makes it fair or unfair in many ways. Washington DC is full of lobbyists trying to change the current mountains of tax laws to benefit their specific lobby as well as to get porky handouts.

Either the Fair Tax or the Flat Tax proposals will go a long way to eliminate much of the "theft", confusion, and waste that surrounds our current system as well as spark economic growth. By simplifing the tax system to either a flat tax on income or a retail sales tax, any change in the simplified tax rates will become quite transparent to the public and it will be more difficult for lobbyists or Congress to affect or increase the tax rates. I'm just not sure which method of collection would be the most "fair" or do the job better.

Taxes are theft unless they are optional. The tyranny of the majority does make taxes right.

If I stop by your house with a group of friends and we vote to take your car, would that be OK? I imagine not. "But it is for national defense!" This is tyranny of the majority, too. And you would shoot me and my friends if you were smart.

And what is the "common good"? I am pretty sure it is some kind of communist term, but I'll let you define it.

How taxes are collected does not change the fairness of them unless I get more votes because I pay more taxes.

 

[Merlin1047]

The Fair tax is fair and it's not a misnomer, you pay tax on what you buy, your choice. Don't buy don't pay, buy little pay little, buy alot pay alot. Pretty simple and very Fair.

Have to throw in a hearty "no way" on this one.

The so-called "fair tax" is easily avoided by anyone living within reasonable driving distance of the Canadian or Mexican border. Want to buy a 200,000 boat? Cross into Canada and buy it there. Then register it in Canada or simply berth it in a Canadian marina.

For the very wealthy, simply establish a residence outside the country, do all your buying there and return to the US only as necessary to maintain your source of income.

The "flat tax" will end up a nightmare as the government tries to nail down exactly what meets the definition of "income". For example - that health care policy your employer provides will probably be taxable at its market value.

To me, the bottom line is simple - the government is going to reach into your pocket to get what it wants. Carping about the tax system to be used is like telling the feds that you want them to wear a specific color glove when they pick your pockets.

Re-inventing the tax code will do nothing to solve our current problem. The only real solution is to demand less government spending.

And good luck with that.