JimofPennsylvan
Platinum Member
- Jun 6, 2007
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Elon Musk's tweet suggesting a good peace plan for Ukraine would be Ukraine agreeing to give Russia Crimea because history calls for this outcome proves beyond a shadow of a doubt "brilliant" guys can act like "total and complete" idiots! Elon references that Russia annexed Crimea in 1783 and that the leader of Russia/Soviet Union in 1954 Nikita Khrushchev transferring of Crimea to Ukraine was a mistake this is Mr. Musk's case for Ukraine permanently relinquishing the territory of Crimea. Sorry Elon your arguments fail. First, the indigenous people to Crimea are Tatars, these are a Sunni Muslim Turkic people; Russians are a Christian orthodox people. In 1783 when Russia annexed Crimea the Russian leader at that time was the Czar Catherine the Great who at that time had fought and won a war against the Ottoman Empire where up until that victory Crimea had long been part of this Empire which was an Islamic Empire the Sultan of the Ottoman Empire was also a Caliph. When Russia annexed Crimea at this time it was brought in as an independent Republic; this history provides no compelling basis for permanently making Crimea part of Russia!
Russia's history with Crimea and its persecution, deportation and in fact ethnic cleansing of the Tatars people makes for a compelling case of no way giving Crimea to Russia! Fairness and Goodness calls for recognizing the rights of the indigenous people to a territory and the Tatars are the indigenous people of Crimea and have populated that territory since around the thirteenth century; and the Tatars despise and detest the Russian government (and rightfully so) and in no way want to be part of Russia because of the way the Russian government has long treated them. Even back in 1780's the Russian government forced many Tartars to leave Crimea and resettle in the Ottoman empire.
Especially in modern times the Russian government has committed atrocity upon atrocity on the Tatar people. In the late 1920's early 1930's the premier of Russia/Soviet Union Joseph Stalin conducted a dekulakization against the Tatars (kulak in Russian means peasant farmer) forcibly deporting thousands of Tatar peasant families from Crimea deep into Russia; then Stalin in 1932-1933 caused the Holodomor on the Tatars (the Holodomor was mass starvation across Ukraine brought about by Stalin moving masses of people to collective farms which did not produce enough food to feed the people -millions died across Ukraine and it is believed up to 150,000 Tatars died during the Holodomor; and then Stalin conducted a campaign in the later 1930's where he killed a lot of Tatar intellectuals. But the pinnacle of Stalin's atrocities was the mass deportation of Tatars in May of 1944; it was a brazen ruthless campaign of genocide against the Tatars. During World War II the Germans conquered Crimea from Russia and the German's being the occupying force a lot of Crimean Tatars helped the German military effort; it didn't seem of any importance to Stalin that thousands of Tatars served honorably in the Soviet Army during World War II. So after the war Stalin decided it was time for revenge so he ordered all the Tatars in Crimea (old people and children) to be rounded up and loaded into train cattle cars and permanently deported deep into Russia; so during three days in May of 1944 thirty-five thousand Soviet Union soldiers rounded up 238,000 Tatars in Crimea and deported them, eight thousand Tatars died on the journey from starvation and typhus! The conditions of their destinations was mostly horrible there was no to little preparation, the housing was to a large degree inadequate and the destination's climate was cold and the food was inadequate resulting in many Tatars dying in the first few years after their arrival. Tartar men in the Soviet army at the time were immediately sent to camps in Siberia where they had to for many years work in hard labor. Not only did these Tatars have to experience this forced deportation but for many years afterwards they had very little rights when Premier Khrushchev came onto the scene he gave the Tatars some rights but it was not until the late 1980's they were permitted to return to Crimea.
Let's look at another fact and see if it warrants giving Crimea to Russia, in 1783 Tatars comprised about 83 percent of the Crimean peninsula's population and 20 percent in 1937 this oppression of the Tatar people, the Russian government is fully culpable in! Even since the Russian government illegally invaded Crimea in 2014 they have continued their persecution of the Tatar people in 2021 it was publicly reported that the leader of the Crimean Tatar people, Mustafa Dzhemilev, said that "in last 7.5 years, the occupiers managed to expel from Crimea about 30 thousand Crimean Tatars and bring up to 1.5 million Russian citizens"! Just yesterday the Wall Street Journal reported that Tartars are being conscripted into Putin's army for this needless invasion war into Ukraine; for this September round of conscription "more that half and possibly up to 90% of people currently drafted from the peninsula are Crimean Tatars, despite making up no more than 13% of the population , according to data collected from community leaders there by independent human-rights group CrimeaSOS." (It sure would be nice if the Free World's governments could help the Ukrainian military and intelligence services somehow rescue these Tatar men that are conscripted or in danger of being conscripted!).
Even aside from the concept of justice that territory belongs to the indigenous people of that territory not to people in a neighboring country, Putin and the Kremlin government should not end up with the territory of Crimea because of how they got possession of it. They broke international law and it is very bad and dangerous for the security of the world to allow this transgression to be rewarded, countries cannot be permitted to take their neighbor's territory by force, they cannot be permitted to redraw country's borders how they like. It is a violation of fundamental rights; people have a fundamental right to be a citizen in their sovereign territory and this holds great importance to a person it has a great baring on their quality of life and you cannot have a person or a nation of people for that matter changing the meaning of that sovereignty without justification! This is what we have here we have Vladimir Putin and his Russian government enablers violating the sovereignty of forty-four million Ukrainians without justification! This is wrong and indefensible and the wonder boy Elon Musk with his nitwit attempt to legitimize any Russian government actions that have transpired is not going to change it!
Russia's history with Crimea and its persecution, deportation and in fact ethnic cleansing of the Tatars people makes for a compelling case of no way giving Crimea to Russia! Fairness and Goodness calls for recognizing the rights of the indigenous people to a territory and the Tatars are the indigenous people of Crimea and have populated that territory since around the thirteenth century; and the Tatars despise and detest the Russian government (and rightfully so) and in no way want to be part of Russia because of the way the Russian government has long treated them. Even back in 1780's the Russian government forced many Tartars to leave Crimea and resettle in the Ottoman empire.
Especially in modern times the Russian government has committed atrocity upon atrocity on the Tatar people. In the late 1920's early 1930's the premier of Russia/Soviet Union Joseph Stalin conducted a dekulakization against the Tatars (kulak in Russian means peasant farmer) forcibly deporting thousands of Tatar peasant families from Crimea deep into Russia; then Stalin in 1932-1933 caused the Holodomor on the Tatars (the Holodomor was mass starvation across Ukraine brought about by Stalin moving masses of people to collective farms which did not produce enough food to feed the people -millions died across Ukraine and it is believed up to 150,000 Tatars died during the Holodomor; and then Stalin conducted a campaign in the later 1930's where he killed a lot of Tatar intellectuals. But the pinnacle of Stalin's atrocities was the mass deportation of Tatars in May of 1944; it was a brazen ruthless campaign of genocide against the Tatars. During World War II the Germans conquered Crimea from Russia and the German's being the occupying force a lot of Crimean Tatars helped the German military effort; it didn't seem of any importance to Stalin that thousands of Tatars served honorably in the Soviet Army during World War II. So after the war Stalin decided it was time for revenge so he ordered all the Tatars in Crimea (old people and children) to be rounded up and loaded into train cattle cars and permanently deported deep into Russia; so during three days in May of 1944 thirty-five thousand Soviet Union soldiers rounded up 238,000 Tatars in Crimea and deported them, eight thousand Tatars died on the journey from starvation and typhus! The conditions of their destinations was mostly horrible there was no to little preparation, the housing was to a large degree inadequate and the destination's climate was cold and the food was inadequate resulting in many Tatars dying in the first few years after their arrival. Tartar men in the Soviet army at the time were immediately sent to camps in Siberia where they had to for many years work in hard labor. Not only did these Tatars have to experience this forced deportation but for many years afterwards they had very little rights when Premier Khrushchev came onto the scene he gave the Tatars some rights but it was not until the late 1980's they were permitted to return to Crimea.
Let's look at another fact and see if it warrants giving Crimea to Russia, in 1783 Tatars comprised about 83 percent of the Crimean peninsula's population and 20 percent in 1937 this oppression of the Tatar people, the Russian government is fully culpable in! Even since the Russian government illegally invaded Crimea in 2014 they have continued their persecution of the Tatar people in 2021 it was publicly reported that the leader of the Crimean Tatar people, Mustafa Dzhemilev, said that "in last 7.5 years, the occupiers managed to expel from Crimea about 30 thousand Crimean Tatars and bring up to 1.5 million Russian citizens"! Just yesterday the Wall Street Journal reported that Tartars are being conscripted into Putin's army for this needless invasion war into Ukraine; for this September round of conscription "more that half and possibly up to 90% of people currently drafted from the peninsula are Crimean Tatars, despite making up no more than 13% of the population , according to data collected from community leaders there by independent human-rights group CrimeaSOS." (It sure would be nice if the Free World's governments could help the Ukrainian military and intelligence services somehow rescue these Tatar men that are conscripted or in danger of being conscripted!).
Even aside from the concept of justice that territory belongs to the indigenous people of that territory not to people in a neighboring country, Putin and the Kremlin government should not end up with the territory of Crimea because of how they got possession of it. They broke international law and it is very bad and dangerous for the security of the world to allow this transgression to be rewarded, countries cannot be permitted to take their neighbor's territory by force, they cannot be permitted to redraw country's borders how they like. It is a violation of fundamental rights; people have a fundamental right to be a citizen in their sovereign territory and this holds great importance to a person it has a great baring on their quality of life and you cannot have a person or a nation of people for that matter changing the meaning of that sovereignty without justification! This is what we have here we have Vladimir Putin and his Russian government enablers violating the sovereignty of forty-four million Ukrainians without justification! This is wrong and indefensible and the wonder boy Elon Musk with his nitwit attempt to legitimize any Russian government actions that have transpired is not going to change it!
