Electric Cars Great....Indoors

[Skull Pilot]

By the way, the newest model Leaf uses a heat pump to heat the cabin. That's about three times more efficient than resistance heating, so it mostly solves the problem of cabin heating being a big battery drain. Other EVs will follow, if they haven't already.

Unfortunately, heat pumps don't work well in extreme cold.

neither do electric cars

 

[Old Rocks]

I'm currently driving my Model S through its third Canadian winter. I thought it might be helpful to discuss some of my "lessons learned" about driving the Model S in the cold.

Feeling a little cold soaked...

Model S Performance in the Cold

You can walk up to your totally cold soaked car, hop in, and drive away. You don't need to warm it up. It won't chug and cough like a gas car; it'll just glide away. The cabin heat will even come up pretty quickly. No fuss, no muss.

That said, there are a few differences in the way the car drives after it's been sitting in a frozen wasteland (aka parking lot) all day.

When the battery pack is below freezing the car will not permit charging, as this will damage the cells. One side-effect of this is that you also lose your regenerative brakes. This is shown by the yellow dotted line on the speedometer. If the car has cold soaked below freezing you may have no regenerative brakes whatsoever. Pay attention, because the car will really really coast - this can be very surprising the first time!!! You'll have to use the conventional brakes until the car warms up.

The dreaded yellow line

If the battery pack is extremely cold, you will also have a power limit. This isn't usually much of an issue because if it's that cold, it's hard to go full throttle without spinning the tires. Cold rubber on frozen pavement doesn't make for great traction. So this is really more of a curiosity than anything.

The battery pack has a heater. It's necessary so the car can charge in the cold. When you start driving a cold car the pack heater turns on, and it can draw up to 6 kW. So can the cabin heater. Simply sitting at a stop sign you're drawing enough power to go over 40 mph. Fortunately it does get better as the car warms up!

Cold versus Range

When the batteries are extremely cold, there will be a little bit of range loss, which is shown by a blue segment on the charge bar. As the batteries warm up that "lost" range will come back, so it's not really lost! The car has to be very cold for this to happen.

Obviously energy needed for heating reduces your range. If the car is cold soaked this can have a big effect on your total range. Starting out with a warmer car can make a big difference to how far you can drive. We'll talk about preheating in a moment.

You will also experience reduced range due to increased aerodynamic drag. Drag moving through the air is the dominant impact on the car's range at any temperature - and it gets worse in the cold. Cooler, denser air is harder to push out of the way. There is also a small effect due to the tires having worse rolling resistance, but aerodynamic effects are much larger.

(Tip: Safely drafting a large truck has an even more dramatic impact on range in the winter. Do not tailgate; keep a safe following distance and you will still see improvement. Note however that strong crosswinds will adversely affect the effectiveness of drafting.)

Cabin Heat

The Model S cabin heater has two (hidden) modes. If the drive train is cold, all heat comes via resistive heaters, which can draw up to about 6 kW. That's a lot of power.

As you drive the car, the drive train will naturally heat up. Once that happens, Model S uses the drive train coolant to help heat the cabin. Essentially it takes waste heat from the motor and inverter and uses that to heat the cabin. This makes a huge difference to the power consumption - a fully warmed-up car will only need 1-2 kW to keep the cabin warm even in extreme cold conditions. In comparison, the original Tesla Roadster needs 4 kW to keep its tiny cabin not-terribly-warm using only resistive heaters. This is a big advantage of Model S engineering that Tesla never talks about!

The upshot here is that cabin heater power consumption gets better quite dramatically after you've been driving for a while.

Cold Weather Driving

Doesn't sound like any major problems to me.

 

[Papageorgio]

Not too happy with my Volt in the winter. It is not as good as a gas only engine.

 

[RGR]

Unfortunately, heat pumps don't work well in extreme cold.

neither do electric cars

Define extreme cold. Define "work well". The wife is out and about when it is 0F outside, as are the various Leafs around town. The issue appears to be battery usability, there is just less to use between heating the cabin, plowing through snow, and the range effect of temperatures that cold. Having said that, I've let the car sit out for an entire week in 0F temps once, and after 5 days of sitting when I fired it up on the 5th day, it was perfectly happy to still EV down the road until it ran out of power.

They don't work as well, but they still work quite well.

 

[RGR]

Not too happy with my Volt in the winter. It is not as good as a gas only engine.

You bought it thinking it would be? How about this for a crazy idea...don't charge it up...run the battery out...and then use it just like a gas engined car because at that point...it will be one!

 

[RGR]

Doesn't sound like any major problems to me.

Those Model Ss are gorgeous. The wife would love to have one, but ours must do double duty, as a short range EV around town for weeks, sometimes months at a time, and then a cross country trip machine. Took the wife's machine to the top of Mount Washington this summer, recharged it on the way down, and loved it!

The wife has an ice blue Ford Fusion Energi, the only downside between it and a normal ICE powered machine is the loss of about 1/2 the trunk for the battery. Otherwise it is just a very fuel efficient ICE machine (35 mpg at 80 mph on highway, 40-42 mpg at steady state 60-65 mph cruising in still air, 52-55 mpg 60-65 mph cruising on rolling country roads). Of course, those mileage figures only matter when on trips, over the course of 6 months last summer the wife didn't use any gasoline at all, commuting around town.

 

[RGR]

So...are you a progressive employer that provides free fuel for your employees cars?
How much free fuel do you pass out to your employees?

None most of me employees lives less than 10 miles away and none are stupid enough to buy electric cars

Fine, you being such a wonderful employer, how much fuel do you give away to your employees? Who cares if they are smart enough to buy electric cars, how much fuel do you provide them, you being such a wonderful employer and all? You must pass out LOTS of fuel, your employees being so smart and all to work for your establishment.

 

[Papageorgio]

Not too happy with my Volt in the winter. It is not as good as a gas only engine.

You bought it thinking it would be? How about this for a crazy idea...don't charge it up...run the battery out...and then use it just like a gas engined car because at that point...it will be one!

Yep, it thought it would be ok. Even without a charge the car will store and revert to electric when it can, but you knew that didn't you bright boy.

 

[Skull Pilot]

So...are you a progressive employer that provides free fuel for your employees cars?
How much free fuel do you pass out to your employees?

None most of me employees lives less than 10 miles away and none are stupid enough to buy electric cars

Fine, you being such a wonderful employer, how much fuel do you give away to your employees? Who cares if they are smart enough to buy electric cars, how much fuel do you provide them, you being such a wonderful employer and all? You must pass out LOTS of fuel, your employees being so smart and all to work for your establishment.

Why should I provide them any fuel for their vehicles?

I pay them so they can buy all the fuel they want

 

[Old Rocks]

Doesn't sound like any major problems to me.

Those Model Ss are gorgeous. The wife would love to have one, but ours must do double duty, as a short range EV around town for weeks, sometimes months at a time, and then a cross country trip machine. Took the wife's machine to the top of Mount Washington this summer, recharged it on the way down, and loved it!

The wife has an ice blue Ford Fusion Energi, the only downside between it and a normal ICE powered machine is the loss of about 1/2 the trunk for the battery. Otherwise it is just a very fuel efficient ICE machine (35 mpg at 80 mph on highway, 40-42 mpg at steady state 60-65 mph cruising in still air, 52-55 mpg 60-65 mph cruising on rolling country roads). Of course, those mileage figures only matter when on trips, over the course of 6 months last summer the wife didn't use any gasoline at all, commuting around town.

Thank you for that post. Made me look up the current specs on the Energi. Think of what they can do when they build a car from scratch as a plug in hybrid. Gone would be the tramped trunk space, and, using an ICE like this,



you could bring the weight down, power up.

 

[RGR]

Not too happy with my Volt in the winter. It is not as good as a gas only engine.

You bought it thinking it would be? How about this for a crazy idea...don't charge it up...run the battery out...and then use it just like a gas engined car because at that point...it will be one!

Yep, it thought it would be ok. Even without a charge the car will store and revert to electric when it can, but you knew that didn't you bright boy.

I owned one. It taught me plenty about EVs, such as I didn't need to worry about range anxiety as much as I initially thought, and the issue became my distaste for driving the thing as an ICE car. The waste of running gasoline to in-directly power the car became my main irritation. So the Fusion, which can run more like a normal parallel hybrid, directly powering the wheels with the engine, while doing 2 other important things, 1) being much more a normal car in size and shape and 2) still has enough EV range to match around town commuting. Me and the wife not really needing 40 miles of the 75% of American commuters but more like 20 miles.

 

[RGR]

So...are you a progressive employer that provides free fuel for your employees cars?
How much free fuel do you pass out to your employees?

None most of me employees lives less than 10 miles away and none are stupid enough to buy electric cars

Fine, you being such a wonderful employer, how much fuel do you give away to your employees?

Why should I provide them any fuel for their vehicles?

Because other employers do. Quite a nice benefit from employers...decent ones anyway.

I pay them so they can buy all the fuel they want

My wife gets that as well. Plus all the fuel she can carry away at the end of each day.

 

[Desperado]

In electric cars the heater is also electric... when it is 20f outside you are running the heater in the car.
Heaters are not known for their efficiency.
When it is hot outsides you are running your A/C, which in an electric car is also electric.
Heaters an AC are major drains on the battery.
The Electric car is still not ready for prime time.

 

[Skull Pilot]

So...are you a progressive employer that provides free fuel for your employees cars?
How much free fuel do you pass out to your employees?

None most of me employees lives less than 10 miles away and none are stupid enough to buy electric cars

Fine, you being such a wonderful employer, how much fuel do you give away to your employees?

Why should I provide them any fuel for their vehicles?

Because other employers do. Quite a nice benefit from employers...decent ones anyway.

I pay them so they can buy all the fuel they want

My wife gets that as well. Plus all the fuel she can carry away at the end of each day.

Sorry but no. No employer I ever had gave away free gas
and neither does yours

 

[RGR]

In electric cars the heater is also electric... when it is 20f outside you are running the heater in the car.
Heaters are not known for their efficiency.
When it is hot outsides you are running your A/C, which in an electric car is also electric.
Heaters an AC are major drains on the battery.
The Electric car is still not ready for prime time.

None of these concerns have stopped my family from owning 2 of them now. Driving back and forth to work for 6 months without harming a gasoline molecule, and warm when it is cold, and cool when it is hot, seems like pretty prime time to me.

What is your experience living and driving EVs? Or are you just yammering away on a topic you really have zero experience with?

 

[RGR]

I pay them so they can buy all the fuel they want

My wife gets that as well. Plus all the fuel she can carry away at the end of each day.

Sorry but no. No employer I ever had gave away free gas
and neither does yours

Can you read? My wife gets the free fuel from her employer, not me. And if you aren't able to keep up with the competition when it comes to handing out some additional bennies, too bad for you.

 

[elektra]

Electric Cars are here to stay, these work the best.

 

[elektra]

This is another great one, I bought 4, I have two still in the case, the boys play with the other two.

 

[Old Rocks]

Tesla today introduced a new version of its Model S sedan. It’s called the P100D, and it can go from 0-60 MPH in 2.5 seconds. Tesla says that makes this the third-fastest production car ever, behind the Ferrari LaFerrari ($1.4 million) and the Porsche 918 Spyder ($845,000).

Both those cars are way more expensive than the Tesla Model S P100D, which starts around $135,000. But while the list of cars that are faster than the P100D is quite short, the list of cars that the Tesla is quicker than is quite long.

So, here’s a comprehensive (but not necessarily complete) list of cars you can buy in the United States today that are slower from 0-60 than the new Tesla:

Acura: ILX, MDX, NSX, RDX, RLX, TLX

Alfa Romeo: Giulia, 4C, 4C Spider

Aston Martin: DB9, Rapide S, V12 Vantage S, V8 Vantage, V8 Vantage S, Vanquish, Vantage GT


Audi: A3, A4, A4 allroad, A5, A6, A7, A8, Q3, Q5, Q7, R8, RS 7, S5, S6, S7, S8, SQ5, TT, TTS

Bentley: Bentayga, Continental GT, Flying Spur, Mulsanne

BMW: 230, 228, 320, 328, 328 Gran Turismo, 328d, 330, 330 Gran Turismo, 330e, 335 Gran Turismo, 340, 340 Gran Turismo, 428, 428 Gran Coupe, 430, 430 Gran Coupe, 435, 435 Gran Coupe, 440, 440 Gran Coupe, 528, 535 Gran Turismo, 550 Gran Turismo, 535d, 550, 550 Gran Turismo, 640, 640 Gran Coupe, 650, 650 Gran Coupe, 740, 740e, 750, ActiveHybrid 5, ALPINA B6 Gran Coupe, ALPINA B7, i3, i8, M2, M235, M240, M3, M4, M5, M6, M6 Gran Coupe, X1, X3, X4, X5, X5 eDrive, X5 M, X6, X6 M, Z4


Buick: Cascada, Enclave, Encore, Envision, LaCrosse, Regal, Verano

Cadillac: ATS, ATS-V, CT6, CTS, CTS-V, ELR, Escalade, Escalade ESV, SRX, XT5, XTS

Chevrolet: Camaro, City Express, Colorado, Corvette, Cruze, Equinox, Express 2500, Express 3500, Impala, Malibu, Malibu Hybrid, Silverado 1500, Silverado 2500HD, Silverado 3500HD, Sonic, Spark, Spark EV, SS, Suburban, Tahoe, Traverse, Trax, Volt

Chrysler: 200, 300, 300C, Pacifica

Dodge: Challenger, Charger, Durango, Grand Caravan, Journey, Viper

Ferrari: 488 GTB, California, GTC4Lusso

Fiat: 124 Spider, 500, 500c, 500e, 500L, 500X

Ford: C-Max Energy, C-Max Hybrid, Edge, Escape, Expedition, Explorer, F-150, F-250, F-350, F-450, Fiesta, Flex, Focus, Focus Electric, Focus RS, Focus ST, Fusion, Fusion Energy, Fusion Hybrid, Mustang, Shelby GT350, Taurus, Transit Connect, Transit-150, Transit-250, Transit-350

GMC: Acadia, Canyon, Savana 2500, Savana 3500, Sierra 1500, Sierra 2500HD, Sierra 3500HD, Terrain, Yukon

Honda: Accord, Accord Hybrid, Civic, CR-V, CR-Z, Fit, HR-V, Odyssey, Pilot, Ridgeline

Hyundai: Accent, Azera, Elantra, Equus, Genesis, Genesis Coupe, Ioniq, Santa Fe, Sonata, Tucson, Veloster

Infiniti: Q30, Q50, Q50 Hybrid, Q60, Q70, Q70h, Q70L, QX80, QX50, QX60, QX60 Hybrid, QX70, QX80

Jaguar: F-Pace, F-Type, XE, XF, XJ

Jeep: Cherokee, Compass, Grand Cherokee, Patriot, Renegade, Wrangler

Kia: Cadenza, Forte, K900, Nero, Optima, Optima Hybrid, Rio, Sedona, Sorento, Soul, Soul EV, Sportage

Lamborghini: Aventador, Huracan

Land Rover: Discovery Sport, LR4, Range Rover, Range Rover Evoque, Range Rover Sport

Lexus: CT 200h, ES 300h, ES 350, GS 200t, GS 350, GS 450h, GS F, GX 460, IS 200t, IS 300, IS 350, LC 500, LS 460, LS 600h, LX 570, NX 200t, NX 300h, RC 200t, RC 300, RC 350, RC F, RX 350, RX 450h

Lincoln: Continental, MKC, MKS, MKT, MKX, MKZ, MKZ Hybrid, Navigator, Navigator L

Maserati: Ghibli, GranTurismo, Levante, Quattroporte

Mazda: CX-3, CX-5, CX-9, Mazda3, Mazda6, MX-5 Miata

McLaren: 570S, 570GT, 650S, 675LT

Mercedes-Benz: AMG C, AMG CLA, AMG CLS, AMG E, AMG G, AMG GL, AMG GLA, AMG GLC, AMG GLE, AMG GLS, AMG GT, AMG S, AMG SL, AMG SLK, AMG SLC, C-Class, CLA-Class, CLS-Class, E-Class, G-Class, GL-Class, GLA-Class, GLC-Class, GLE-Class, GLS-Class, S-Class, SL-Class, SLC-Class, Metris-Class, Sprinter

Mini: Clubman, Convertible, Countryman, Hardtop, Paceman

Mitsubishi: i-MiEV, Lancer, Mirage, Mirage G4, Outlander

Nissan: 370Z, Armada, GT-R, Juke, LEAF, Maxima, Murano, Murano Hybrid, NV Cargo, NV Passenger, Pathfinder, Quest, Rogue, Rogue Hybrid, Sentr
The new Tesla Model S P100D is faster than all these cars

LOL, Ms. Elektra, you are so fucking stupid.

 

[RGR]

This is another great one, I bought 4, I have two still in the case, the boys play with the other two.View attachment 108559

Pretty cool! This is the one the wife drives. It doesn't run around inside at all, instead commuting her to work every day. Damn thing, won't break, costs pennies to fill up for a days commute when I pay for it, she fills it for free at work, who ever would have thought that you could run a mid sized family sedan all over town just on electric motors!