rosends
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except that the Talmud may not be at all talking about Jesus.
Zone1 Earliest inscription "Jesus is God" found and is over 1800 years old
- Thread starter Votto
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Who was it talking about?
zaangalewa
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Socrates was no author at all - nevertheless the base of philosophy. And Epicurus had been by the way the second best choice of Augustinus - if he not became a Christian. And Emperor Augustus had been an Epicurean.
France and England are German words.
Latin? One of the most important languages on our planet. And I have no idea where you place Russian in this context. Russian will not exist for a long time from that point of view.
What do you call dark ages in this context?
the era of the 'HOLY ROMAN EMPIRE' russian was never the language----russian wannabees did FRENCH
rosends
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if you read through the pages, you will see that there are different people.
Tell me the account of the person that practiced sorcery and incited Israel to apostasy.
rosends
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scroll down to the second text
The Babylonian talmud references Yeshu specifically.
rosends
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It doesn't reference Jesus even once. Why don't you read the pages I cited? Do you know how to read the actual Talmud? I can go through teh sources in Aramaic if you want.
The Babylonian Talmud I have seen does reference Yeshu. And stated that he was put to death for sorcery and inciting Israel to apostasy.
Were there many Jews accused of sorcery? Were there many Jews accused of inciting Israel to apostasy?
rosends
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you read Hebrew? Do you know what "Yeshu" is and means? Hint -- it isn't Jesus.
yes, there were some. I gave you a citation from that webpage about one of them. If you think you have a talmudic citation which supports your point, just post the text from the talmud.
Here is the page of Sanhedrin 106A. The line you are refering to is the last one on the page
unless you mean a different page. Which one are you talking about?
I'm just glad you learned it calls out Yeshu.
So which Yeshu was put to death for sorcery? Which Yeshu was put to death for inciting Israel to apostasy? Because that wasn't a common occurence. It happened one time.
rosends
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who says it happened one time? And if you look through the pages I cited, you will see that not only doesn't it have nothing to do with Jesus, but it actually COULDN'T refer to Jesus. Have you found a citation for your claim so I can discuss it?
zaangalewa
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As far as I know the Slawic languages are relativelly young and had been developed in the Ukraine in the region Kiev around the sixth century. At this time we had trade relations with this region and Scandinavians had a trading post there called "Rus".
French also is a very young language and I guess it is more or less a product of the influence of the Frankonian (German) Charlesmagne. Charlesmagne was not able to read and to write but he spoke fluently Latin. He preferred this language as the "lingua franka" (that's why the expression "lingua franka" exists at all) in his "holy empire", the Frankonian empire (later a part of it will be called "holy empire"). Meaning: Not any language has to be suppressed - everyone should speak the own language - but in communication with others Latin should be used as a common language between all this different nations/ethniticies/folks/tribes - however you like to call them. In France this leaded to a process which melted this mediterranian language with the Germanic language of the Franks and the Celtic language of the older cultures there into the common language French - one of the most beautiful languages of the world.
Christine, ma belle, ma douce, ma jolie!
Je chante pour elle et pour elle je ris!
Elle est tendre et sauvage, elle est comme un torrent
Qui me berce et m'enztaîne, elle est comme le vent
Ell est comme le vent qui joue dans mes cheveux
Capricieuse et changeante, elle est comme le feu
Qui brûle ma mémoire, je ne sais qui je suis
Christine, ma belle, ma douce, ma jolie!
Si je ne sais pas qui dirige l'univers
Si je ne sais pas pourquoi tourne la terre
Je sais bien cependant, que serré dans ses bras
Je frémis comme frémissent les cordes sous mes doigts!
J'ai perdu la mémoire, l'orgueuil, l'assurance
J'ai perdu le sommeil, la tête et la patience!
Mais ce que j'ai perdu ne pèse pas bien lourd:
J‘ai perdu avec joie, pour gagner son amour!
Je me ferais noble pour lui faire plaisir
Je deviendrais sage, gendarme ou fakir
Ou pompier ou ministre et si elle veut bien
Je reste qui je suis et ne deviendrai rien
Je changerais pour elle mes anciennes opinions
Et je ferais des siennes mes nouvelles convictions!
Je lui cèderais tout, mais lui refuserais
Si elle me demandait de cesser de l'aimer
Christine, ma belle, ma douce, ma jolie!
Je chante pour elle et pour elle je vis!
Elle est tendre et sauvage, elle est comme un torrent
Qui me berce au rivage, qui m'entraine en riant
Elle est douce, elle est tendre, et moi, je l'aimerai
Cent mille ans et trois jours, jusqu'à la Saint-Jamais!
Et tant pis si demain je meurs au point du jour:
J'aurai vécu dans ses bras plus de mille ans d'amour!
-----
Christine, my beautiful, my sweet, my pretty!
I sing for her and I laugh for her!
She's tender and wild, she's like a torrent
That rocks me and entices me, she's like the wind
She's like the wind that plays in my hair
Capricious and changeable, she's like the fire
That burns my memory, I don't know who I am
Christine, my beautiful, my sweet, my pretty!
If I don't know who rules the universe
If I don't know why the earth turns
But I do know that clasped in her arms
I tremble as the strings quiver beneath my fingers!
I've lost my memory, my pride, my confidence
I've lost my sleep, my head and my patience!
But what I've lost doesn't weigh much:
I lost with joy, to win her love!
I would make myself noble to please him
I'd become wise, a gendarme or a fakir
Or fireman or minister, and if she pleases
I'd stay who I am and become nothing
I would change my old opinions for her
And make hers my new convictions!
I'd give her everything, but refuse her
If she asked me to stop loving her
Christine, my beautiful, my sweet, my pretty!
I sing for her and I live for her!
She's tender and wild, she's like a torrent
That lulls me to the shore, that drags me laughing
She's sweet, she's tender, and I'll love her
A hundred thousand years and three days, until St. Never!
And never mind if tomorrow I die at dawn:
I'll have lived more than a thousand years of love in her arms!
Translated with DeepL.com (free version)
Last edited:
thanks for the information-----HOWEVER --I was thinking of more
contemporaneous times---like the 19th and 20th centuries
zaangalewa
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Wait a little. Soon the USA will leave the 19th century and arrive in the 18th century.
ACUTE SCHADENFREUDE
TruthNotBS
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Just because an inscription was found from the 2nd century stating Jesus was God doesn't imply Christians at the time were Trinitarians, or had a well-developed Trinitarian Christology, if at all. To be God, in the ancient world, meant more than what it means today in mainstream "orthodox" Christianity.
The King of Israel addressed as “Elohim (God)” in Psalm 45:
(6) "Thy throne, O Elohim (God), is forever and ever: the scepter of thy kingdom is a right scepter."
(7) "Thou lovest righteousness, and hatest wickedness: therefore Elohim (God), thy Elohim (God), hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows." (Psalm 45:6-7)
Paul and other Jewish rabbis interpret the above statement as evocative, as in evoking the person as Elohim. The one who officially represents Elohim/God is often identified synonymously with Him.
Moses was God to Pharoah, and his brother:
"16 And he shall be thy spokesman unto the people: and he shall be, even he shall be to thee instead of a mouth, and thou shalt be to him instead of Elohim (God)." (Exodus 4:16)
"1 And YHWH said unto Moses, See, I have made thee Elohim (God) to Pharaoh: and Aaron thy brother shall be thy prophet." (Exodus 7:1)
Judges called “Elohim (gods)” in Exodus:
"Then his master shall bring him unto the Elohim (gods); he shall also bring him to the door, or unto the door post; and his master shall bore his ear through with an aul; and he shall serve him for ever." (Exodus 21:6)
"If the thief be not found, then the master of the house shall be brought unto the Elohim (gods), to see whether he have put his hand unto his neighbour's goods." (Exodus 22:8)
"For all manner of trespass, whether it be for ox, for ass, for sheep, for raiment, or for any manner of lost thing, which another challengeth to be his, the cause of both parties shall come before the Elohim (gods); and whom the Elohim (gods) shall condemn, he shall pay double unto his neighbour." (Exodus 22:9)
"Thou shalt not revile the Elohim (gods), nor curse the ruler of thy people." (Exodus 22:28)
(Note: Although Jewish rabbis and Christian scholars translate these “judges,” the Hebrew text has "Elohim".)
“Elohim (gods)” in Psalm 82 (often interpreted as referring to Israel’s rulers/judges):
(1) "Elohim (God) standeth in the congregation of the mighty; he judgeth among the Elohim (gods)."
(2) "How long will ye judge unjustly, and accept the persons of the wicked? Selah."
(3) "Defend the poor and fatherless: do justice to the afflicted and needy."
(4) "Deliver the poor and needy: rid them out of the hand of the wicked."
(5) "They know not, neither will they understand; they walk on in darkness: all the foundations of the earth are out of course."
(6) "I have said, Ye are Elohim (gods); and all of you are children of the most High."
(7) "But ye shall die like men, and fall like one of the princes."
(8) "Arise, O Elohim (God), judge the earth: for thou shalt inherit all nations."
(Psalm 82:1-8)
Human beings “a little lower than Elohim” in Psalm 8:
"For thou hast made him a little lower than Elohim (God/gods), and hast crowned him with glory and honour." (Psalm 8:5)
Note that in the Hebrew text, the word is “Elohim,” often translated “God/gods.” However, in the LXX, the word is “angels” (Greek: ἀγγέλους).
In the LXX (Greek numbering, this is often Psalm 8:6, but we’ll keep the KJV numbering here):
"5 ηλάττωσας αυτόν βραχύ τι παρ᾽ αγγέλους, δόξῃ καὶ τιμῇ ἐστεφάνωσας αὐτόν." (Psalm 8:5 LXX)
English translation:
"5 You have made him a little lower than the angels; you have crowned him with glory and honour." (Psalm 8:5)
Hence, where the Masoretic (Hebrew) text has “Elohim” (God/gods), the LXX renders the term as “angels.” The New Testament book of Hebrews (2:7) follows this Greek reading when quoting Psalm 8:5.
Other verses in the Hebrew Bible likewise identify creatures as Elohim/God/god/gods.
Now moving to the NT, we find the following:
John 1:1 in Greek reads: "Ἐν ἀρχῇ ἦν ὁ λόγος, καὶ ὁ λόγος ἦν πρὸς τὸν θεόν, καὶ θεὸς ἦν ὁ λόγος." In most English Bibles, this is rendered, “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.” However, since the final clause (“καὶ θεὸς ἦν ὁ λόγος”) features an anarthrous noun (θεὸς, without the definite article) that precedes the verb, many Greek scholars, including Daniel Wallace in his...
Greek Grammar Beyond the Basics: An Exegetical Syntax ...
...argue that this construction is intended to stress the qualitative aspect of θεός. That is, rather than identifying the Word as “the God of Israel” (which would require the article in this grammatical position), the text focuses on describing the Word’s nature or essence as “divine,” reflecting attributes of God rather than straightforwardly equating the Word with God’s entire being.Defending the translation “the Word was divine” does not deny that a later Trinitarian framework can read more into the text. Rather, it highlights that the text in its historical context likely emphasized the quality of the Logos, namely, that it partook of God’s nature, without necessarily presupposing the post–second-century philosophical claim that “God exhausts the category of deity.” This approach respects the syntax of the Greek (especially the anarthrous predicate noun in a pre-verbal position) and recognizes that first-century audiences may well have understood the phrase to mean that the Logos was divine in nature, without using the definite article to equate the Logos one-to-one with God himself, as being ontologically co-equal and co-eternal.
Here are other passages in the NT, for example:
"9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?
10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.
11 Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake." (John 14:9–11)
Jesus manifests the presence of the Father, YHWH, who is in Him, expressing Himself, through the words and actions of Christ. That doesn't imply that Jesus the Son of God, is co-equal or the same as Father-God.
When Thomas saw Jesus resurrected from the grave, he praised God the Father, who had risen Christ from the dead and was working in and through His Son.
"28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God." (John 20:28)
God the Father was present, right there before Thomas, in and through His Son Jesus (His highest official agent and bearer of His divine image). Jesus is the image and glory of the Father, the only true God.
"Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature." (Colossians 1:15)
"In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them." (2 Corinthians 4:4)
"1 These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee:
2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.
3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent." (John 17:1–3)
There are plenty of reasons not to assume that Jesus was considered God incarnate in the Trinitarian sense, back in the 1st century by His apostles and disciples.
^^^^^ large pile of psychotic bullshit----(written by an
ayatoilet?????)
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