Zone1 Does Paul receive enough credit in Christianity?

[ding]

Jesus lived and died as a devout Jew. The fact that Christians appropriated his scripture, changed the laws he lived under, and, ironically, developed a deep anti-Semitism at the same time would be shocking to him, I think.

Seems like that was addressed by Jesus himself, he began his ministry ministering to only Jews. It was only after they rejected his teaching that he began ministering to the Gentiles. He even told a parable about it; the parable of the wedding feast. Matthew 22:1-14

 

[ding]

I don't disagree, but Jesus left very little, if any, writings. Did Jesus expect his pagan followers to be circumcised and follow the other Jewish laws? I don't recall anything in the Gospels about it but I think the debate raged in Acts and the letters of Paul.

He didn't need to write, he taught.

 

[JustAGuy1]

Jesus lived and died as a devout Jew. The fact that Christians appropriated his scripture, changed the laws he lived under, and, ironically, developed a deep anti-Semitism at the same time would be shocking to him, I think.

Wow, it's hard to be that Scripturally ignorant.....are you a Jew? Paul makes it clear, Jesus came first to the Jew then to the Gentile.

 

[alang1216]

I disagree. Why do you believe we know little about the views of Jesus and why do you believe we know way more than Paul did? We know a great deal about what Jesus taught and typically people who are closer in time to an event know the event better than people who are farther away in time from the event.

All we know of Jesus are second-hand stories that often conflict or show signs of being inaccurate. Everything we have has gone through at least one translation and maybe more, each being less accurate. Paul never met Jesus and, except for the resurrection, seems to know little about him. I don't believe he ever quotes Jesus.

 

[alang1216]

He didn't need to write, he taught.

What did he teach about having to become a Jew to be one of his followers?

 

[alang1216]

Wow, it's hard to be that Scripturally ignorant.....are you a Jew? Paul makes it clear, Jesus came first to the Jew then to the Gentile.

That is what Paul taught. What did Jesus teach?

 

[ding]

All we know of Jesus are second-hand stories that often conflict or show signs of being inaccurate. Everything we have has gone through at least one translation and maybe more, each being less accurate. Paul never met Jesus and, except for the resurrection, seems to know little about him. I don't believe he ever quotes Jesus.

There are 24,000 written manuscripts that detail his 3 1/2 year ministry. That's pretty amazing for an event from antiquity. What are you expecting... an interview on 60 Minutes?

Early Christians wrote about him. Jewish historians wrote about him. Secular historians wrote about him. Has there ever been anyone in the history of the world that has been more studied or written about?

I'm not sure how you can conclude Paul knew little about Jesus. Have you read Paul's Epistles?

 

[ding]

What did he teach about having to become a Jew to be one of his followers?

Nothing that I'm aware of. Why would he?

 

[Foxfyre]

He really was a loyal servant who fearlessly spread the gospel,risking his life and fully a.Believer.

No other writer in the Bible is as honored as Paul. When the early Church fathers were trying to decide what written manuscripts to authorize as authentic and permanent scrolls that would be 'scripture', they decided on those authenticated to be read and taught in the congregations, i.e. the Four Gospels and Acts and Revelation and anything associated with one of Jesus' apostles plus Hebrews that we do not know why it was selected other than the purity of its message. All the other New Testament books are letters or fragments of letters written by Paul to the churches or attributed to Paul by one of his disciples.

Curiously, until he met the Risen Christ and His disciples, Paul was on a dedicated mission to ferret out and destroy any Jew who had embraced the new Christianity:

"In his words, “I was once a blasphemer and a persecutor and a violent man” (1 Timothy 1:13). Upon hearing that the flames of Christianity had ignited a movement in the city of Damascus, Paul, “breathing threats and murder” (Acts 9:1), set out to extinguish the spread as quickly as possible. It was on the road to Damascus that Jesus intervened."

But then the Bible many times illustrates God's M.O. to select the unlikeliest people to do great things.

 

[ding]

The First Epistle to the Thessalonians, which was likely the first of Paul's letters, introduces a characterization of the Holy Spirit in 1:6 and 4:8 which persist throughout his epistles.[2] In 1 Thessalonians 1:6 Paul refers to the imitation of Christ (and himself) and states: "And ye became imitators of us, and of the Lord, having received the word in much affliction, with joy of the Holy Spirit", whose source is identified in 1 Thessalonians 4:8 as "God, who giveth his Holy Spirit unto you".[2][3][4]

These two themes of receiving the Spirit "like Christ" and God being the source of the Spirit persist in Pauline letters as the characterization of the relationship of Christians with God.[2] For Paul the imitation of Christ involves readiness to be shaped by the Holy Spirit and as in Romans 8:4 and 8:11: "But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwelleth in you, he that raised up Christ Jesus from the dead shall give life also to your mortal bodies through his Spirit that dwelleth in you."[3] The First Epistle to the Thessalonians also refers to the power of the Holy Spirit in 1:5, a theme which persists in other Pauline letters.[5]

Holy Spirit in the Pauline epistles - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[surada]

Hmm interesting. I've always viewed Christianity as a sect of Judaism, that's just how I view the.religion. Amazing to think how many years passed between Old Testament to New. It lends credence to the legend of Jesus as far as I am coincerned.

I thought you were into the Rapture and Armageddon. That's not Judaism.

 

[shockedcanadian]

I thought you were into the Rapture and Armageddon. That's not Judaism.

I am interested in Jesus and his spoken/recorded word.

 

[surada]

I am interested in Jesus and his spoken/recorded word.

Jesus never taught Rapture or Armageddon.

 

[alang1216]

There are 24,000 written manuscripts that detail his 3 1/2 year ministry. That's pretty amazing for an event from antiquity. What are you expecting... an interview on 60 Minutes?

It is the best documented event from antiquity but none of those fragments date to earlier than 100 years after Jesus died. Also, none of those fragments are exactly alike, evidence that the original scriptures were embellished while some were likely forged.

Early Christians wrote about him. Jewish historians wrote about him. Secular historians wrote about him. Has there ever been anyone in the history of the world that has been more studied or written about?

While the first may be true, it is unlikely that contemporary Jewish or secular historians had direct knowledge of Jesus.

I'm not sure how you can conclude Paul knew little about Jesus. Have you read Paul's Epistles?

You mean aside from the fact Paul never met Jesus? What Paul knew about Jesus can be summed up as:

Jesus died for our sins by crucifixion and was then raised from the dead three days later, according to prophecy. He was seen by many after the resurrection. He was a descendant of David, he was betrayed, he defined a bread and wine ritual for his followers, and the Jews killed him.​

 

[DudleySmith]

Paul's books have a lot in them many need to rewrite to suit themselves, and to do so they need to discredit him, SAme with others as well. If he hadn't been the primary instigator in the founding of many synagogues and providing cohesive links between widely separated congregations, many of them underground or soon to be, Christianity wouldn't have been the success it is. His letters settled a lot of issues that didn't need to be divisive; it took another 10 or so centuries for the churches to split, a testament to the strength of his foundations and organizational efforts.

 

[alang1216]

Nothing that I'm aware of. Why would he?

You'd think God would anticipate the fractious debate the topic would bring.

 

[DudleySmith]

The Sadducees demanded his murder, and they themselves perished as a political power during the revolt against Rome and the destruction of the temple state. What is now called 'Orthodox' Judaism is a counterfeit cult built by Pharisees in the 2nd Century on the bones of the counterfeit Babylonians' racist fantasies initiated by Ezra. They alienated the majority of the Jewish tribes and the Hebrew culture was in miserable disarray by the time of Jesus's reform movement.

 

[ding]

It is the best documented event from antiquity but none of those fragments date to earlier than 100 years after Jesus died. Also, none of those fragments are exactly alike, evidence that the original scriptures were embellished while some were likely forged.

That's not true but it doesn't matter if it were. So it's not worth me arguing about.

I guess I lost track of what you are arguing for. How would this point relate to that?

 

[surada]

The Sadducees demanded his murder, and they themselves perished as a political power during the revolt against Rome and the destruction of the temple state. What is now called 'Orthodox' Judaism is a counterfeit cult built by Pharisees in the 2nd Century on the bones of the counterfeit Babylonians' racist fantasies initiated by Ezra. They alienated the majority of the Jewish tribes and the Hebrew culture was in miserable disarray by the time of Jesus's reform movement.

Babylonian racist fantasies?

 

[ding]

While the first may be true, it is unlikely that contemporary Jewish or secular historians had direct knowledge of Jesus.

If that's important to you, you should probably do some research. I don't really see a personal relevance for me. I'm quite happy with the Trinity. It's a tangible intangible for me. It's made quite a positive effect on me.