Does America Need Be Saved From Theocracy?

PoliticalChic

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1.I have actually had to endure posts from government school grads along this line of what passes for thinking:
“You religious Bible-thumpers want to ram your superstition down our throats…..this is not a theocracy!!!”

Wow.



There are ‘religion’ groups that do demand control of the society…but the Judeo-Christian view on which this nation was founded is not one. But this nation was created with Judeo-Christian principles in mind:

“Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other.” John Adams



2. Now about that ‘ramming down disproving throats’ fable.

“Although Christianity in its many varieties was the religion of the original colonies, Christianity does not preach operational dominance over the body politic in America. Tocqueville compared this aspect to Islam: “Mohammed professed to derive from Heaven, and has inserted in the Koran, not only religious doctrines, but political maxims, civil and criminal laws, and theories of science. The Gospel, on the contrary, speaks only of the general relations of men to God and to each other, beyond which it inculcates and imposes no point of faith. This alone, besides a thousand other reasons, would suffice to prove that the former of these religions will never long predominate in a cultivated and democratic age, while the latter is destined to retain its sway at these as at all other periods.” Tocqueville, “Democracy in America,” vol.2, p. 23.



3. Assume arguendo that there is as much reason to have a religious citizenry as there is to have an non-religious one. The solution is that you don’t have to believe, ....but it is in your interest to have others believe.

The most succinct argument in favor of a religious citizenry comes from a famous atheist, Voltaire: "I don't believe in God, but I hope my valet does so he won't steal my spoons."
How Voltaire's Atheism Overthrew Deism

And, Voltaire also famously said "Si Dieu n'existait pas, il faudrait l'inventer." Mais toute la nature nous crie qu'il existe; qu'il y a une intelligence suprême, un pouvoir immense, un ordre admirable, et tout nous instruit de notre dépendance. "If God did not exist, he would have to be invented."

For the same reason as above....it is society's interest to have more religious folks, than non-religious


BTW…when about to die, Voltaire recanted: “He at once sent for the priest, and wanted to be ‘reconciled with the church.’ The Tragic Death of Voltaire the Atheist | Paw Creek Ministries





Atheism can’t sustain a rights-based, virtue-based system as a God-less ideology. Rousseau, Hegel and Marx took the opposite view, and the result was multiple millions slaughtered.


4. The less educated also claim that the Constitution somehow inveighs against religion and mandates it be separated from government. Another falsity.
The first amendment, formulated by a learned and religious group, simply made certain that no government of America mandated a particular belief. Or, have none at all.




Sooooo......where is the 'threat' of a theocracy?????
 

RealDave

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So, there are no politicians trying to legislate their religious beliefs?

Example. The right wants the ability for businesses to discriminate based on their religious beliefs. They want it to be OK for a Pharmacist to refuse to fill a prescription if that prescription is against his "religion".
 

JoeB131

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1.I have actually had to endure posts from government school grads along this line of what passes for thinking:
“You religious Bible-thumpers want to ram your superstition down our throats…..this is not a theocracy!!!”

Wow.
Um. I went to Catholic Schools for 12 years.

You Bible thumpers ARE trying to ram your superstitions down our throats.

Knock it off.

If you think Gay marriage or Abortion are bad... don't have one. This isn't that complicated.
 

JoeB131

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Atheism can’t sustain a rights-based, virtue-based system as a God-less ideology. Rousseau, Hegel and Marx took the opposite view, and the result was multiple millions slaughtered.
Just as many were slaughtered by God-fearing Christians... The Nazis didn't wear belt buckles that said, "Atheism is nifty", they wore ones that said this.

upload_2019-10-20_7-52-9.jpeg


For those who don't speak German, it translates to "God With Us"
 

tyroneweaver

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Atheism can’t sustain a rights-based, virtue-based system as a God-less ideology. Rousseau, Hegel and Marx took the opposite view, and the result was multiple millions slaughtered.
Just as many were slaughtered by God-fearing Christians... The Nazis didn't wear belt buckles that said, "Atheism is nifty", they wore ones that said this.

View attachment 285374

For those who don't speak German, it translates to "God With Us"
Classic definition of profanity
 

JoeB131

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Hey, I am sure the Nazis honestly thought that they were doing God's work.

The fact is, every Christian Nation in Europe was happy to send volunteers to help the Nazis cleanse the world of the Jews.

Yeah, after the war, everyone felt really bad about it. The Vatican even decided to make sure part of Vatican 2 was to absolve the Jews of Jesus' murder. (even though according the bible, they totally killed the guy for blasphemy)
 
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Atheism can’t sustain a rights-based, virtue-based system as a God-less ideology. Rousseau, Hegel and Marx took the opposite view, and the result was multiple millions slaughtered.
Just as many were slaughtered by God-fearing Christians... The Nazis didn't wear belt buckles that said, "Atheism is nifty", they wore ones that said this.

View attachment 285374

For those who don't speak German, it translates to "God With Us"
Your lack of historical rigor knows no bounds. The Nazis were very much anti-Church since they saw it as a threat to their political power. They instead sought to establish a Reich Church which would be compatible with Nazi rule & in-step with Nazi ideology. This was very similar to the Soviet Orthodox Church which was an attempt by the Leninists to replace the Russian Orthodox Church. In any case, neither of these so-called state churches were anywhere near being in-step with God or being labeled as theocratic.
 

eagle1462010

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1.I have actually had to endure posts from government school grads along this line of what passes for thinking:
“You religious Bible-thumpers want to ram your superstition down our throats…..this is not a theocracy!!!”

Wow.



There are ‘religion’ groups that do demand control of the society…but the Judeo-Christian view on which this nation was founded is not one. But this nation was created with Judeo-Christian principles in mind:

“Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other.” John Adams



2. Now about that ‘ramming down disproving throats’ fable.

“Although Christianity in its many varieties was the religion of the original colonies, Christianity does not preach operational dominance over the body politic in America. Tocqueville compared this aspect to Islam: “Mohammed professed to derive from Heaven, and has inserted in the Koran, not only religious doctrines, but political maxims, civil and criminal laws, and theories of science. The Gospel, on the contrary, speaks only of the general relations of men to God and to each other, beyond which it inculcates and imposes no point of faith. This alone, besides a thousand other reasons, would suffice to prove that the former of these religions will never long predominate in a cultivated and democratic age, while the latter is destined to retain its sway at these as at all other periods.” Tocqueville, “Democracy in America,” vol.2, p. 23.



3. Assume arguendo that there is as much reason to have a religious citizenry as there is to have an non-religious one. The solution is that you don’t have to believe, ....but it is in your interest to have others believe.

The most succinct argument in favor of a religious citizenry comes from a famous atheist, Voltaire: "I don't believe in God, but I hope my valet does so he won't steal my spoons."
How Voltaire's Atheism Overthrew Deism

And, Voltaire also famously said "Si Dieu n'existait pas, il faudrait l'inventer." Mais toute la nature nous crie qu'il existe; qu'il y a une intelligence suprême, un pouvoir immense, un ordre admirable, et tout nous instruit de notre dépendance. "If God did not exist, he would have to be invented."

For the same reason as above....it is society's interest to have more religious folks, than non-religious


BTW…when about to die, Voltaire recanted: “He at once sent for the priest, and wanted to be ‘reconciled with the church.’ The Tragic Death of Voltaire the Atheist | Paw Creek Ministries





Atheism can’t sustain a rights-based, virtue-based system as a God-less ideology. Rousseau, Hegel and Marx took the opposite view, and the result was multiple millions slaughtered.


4. The less educated also claim that the Constitution somehow inveighs against religion and mandates it be separated from government. Another falsity.
The first amendment, formulated by a learned and religious group, simply made certain that no government of America mandated a particular belief. Or, have none at all.




Sooooo......where is the 'threat' of a theocracy?????
The Entire Middle East is the threat of a theocracy.

Case closed
 

Oddball

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Atheism can’t sustain a rights-based, virtue-based system as a God-less ideology. Rousseau, Hegel and Marx took the opposite view, and the result was multiple millions slaughtered.
Just as many were slaughtered by God-fearing Christians... The Nazis didn't wear belt buckles that said, "Atheism is nifty", they wore ones that said this.

View attachment 285374

For those who don't speak German, it translates to "God With Us"
Your lack of historical rigor knows no bounds. The Nazis were very much anti-Church since they saw it as a threat to their political power. They instead sought to establish a Reich Church which would be compatible with Nazi rule & in-step with Nazi ideology. This was very similar to the Soviet Orthodox Church which was an attempt by the Leninists to replace the Russian Orthodox Church. In any case, neither of these so-called state churches were anywhere near being in-step with God or being labeled as theocratic.
They make The State their god.

Post #2 stands.
 
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PoliticalChic

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So, there are no politicians trying to legislate their religious beliefs?

Example. The right wants the ability for businesses to discriminate based on their religious beliefs. They want it to be OK for a Pharmacist to refuse to fill a prescription if that prescription is against his "religion".

a. So you object to enforcing the commandment against murder?

b. You view is that forcing conscientious objectors to bake a cake is more important than liberty?

c. One must admit the consistency you folks stick to going back to your revolution in 1905.
I knew you wouldn't understand that, RealDumb....you're a government school grad.
 

JoeB131

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Your lack of historical rigor knows no bounds. The Nazis were very much anti-Church since they saw it as a threat to their political power. They instead sought to establish a Reich Church which would be compatible with Nazi rule & in-step with Nazi ideology. This was very similar to the Soviet Orthodox Church which was an attempt by the Leninists to replace the Russian Orthodox Church. In any case, neither of these so-called state churches were anywhere near being in-step with God or being labeled as theocratic.
Actually, you are the one who is confused. The Nazis had no problem with the churches, the churches happily got into lock-step with the Nazis.

The mistake you make is thinking the Nazis and the Churches of Germany were that divergent in their views.

Martin Luther wrote a book called "The Jews and their Lies". The Catholic Church held for centuries the Jews killed Jesus. Pope Pius XII was called "Hitler's Pope" for a reason.

Yeah, AFTER the war, they all came out like children who ate too much candy being all sorry and regretful for what they did.
 
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PoliticalChic

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1.I have actually had to endure posts from government school grads along this line of what passes for thinking:
“You religious Bible-thumpers want to ram your superstition down our throats…..this is not a theocracy!!!”

Wow.
Um. I went to Catholic Schools for 12 years.

You Bible thumpers ARE trying to ram your superstitions down our throats.

Knock it off.

If you think Gay marriage or Abortion are bad... don't have one. This isn't that complicated.

"If you think Gay marriage or Abortion are bad... don't have one."

I feel the same way about murder and bank robbery.....your approach appears to fall short....as does your intellect.
 

JoeB131

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More crazy from the Mail Order Bride From Hell...

a. So you object to enforcing the commandment against murder?
There were laws against Murder long before the Ten Commandments.. The Code of Hamurrabi, for instance, which predates it by centuries. Most non-Christian societies have laws against murder. This wasn't a particularly original idea by your sky fairy.

b. You view is that forcing conscientious objectors to bake a cake is more important than liberty?
It isn't a matter of liberty. If the Bakers don't want to follow the laws of their state, they have the option of doing something else for a living.

c. One must admit the consistency you folks stick to going back to your revolution in 1905.
I knew you wouldn't understand that, RealDumb....you're a government school grad.
As opposed to yourself, a product of religious schooling... The worst thing I found out after 12 years of Catholic Schools is how much stuff they OUTRIGHT LIED ABOUT.
 
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1.I have actually had to endure posts from government school grads along this line of what passes for thinking:
“You religious Bible-thumpers want to ram your superstition down our throats…..this is not a theocracy!!!”

Wow.



There are ‘religion’ groups that do demand control of the society…but the Judeo-Christian view on which this nation was founded is not one. But this nation was created with Judeo-Christian principles in mind:

“Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other.” John Adams



2. Now about that ‘ramming down disproving throats’ fable.

“Although Christianity in its many varieties was the religion of the original colonies, Christianity does not preach operational dominance over the body politic in America. Tocqueville compared this aspect to Islam: “Mohammed professed to derive from Heaven, and has inserted in the Koran, not only religious doctrines, but political maxims, civil and criminal laws, and theories of science. The Gospel, on the contrary, speaks only of the general relations of men to God and to each other, beyond which it inculcates and imposes no point of faith. This alone, besides a thousand other reasons, would suffice to prove that the former of these religions will never long predominate in a cultivated and democratic age, while the latter is destined to retain its sway at these as at all other periods.” Tocqueville, “Democracy in America,” vol.2, p. 23.



3. Assume arguendo that there is as much reason to have a religious citizenry as there is to have an non-religious one. The solution is that you don’t have to believe, ....but it is in your interest to have others believe.

The most succinct argument in favor of a religious citizenry comes from a famous atheist, Voltaire: "I don't believe in God, but I hope my valet does so he won't steal my spoons."
How Voltaire's Atheism Overthrew Deism

And, Voltaire also famously said "Si Dieu n'existait pas, il faudrait l'inventer." Mais toute la nature nous crie qu'il existe; qu'il y a une intelligence suprême, un pouvoir immense, un ordre admirable, et tout nous instruit de notre dépendance. "If God did not exist, he would have to be invented."

For the same reason as above....it is society's interest to have more religious folks, than non-religious


BTW…when about to die, Voltaire recanted: “He at once sent for the priest, and wanted to be ‘reconciled with the church.’ The Tragic Death of Voltaire the Atheist | Paw Creek Ministries





Atheism can’t sustain a rights-based, virtue-based system as a God-less ideology. Rousseau, Hegel and Marx took the opposite view, and the result was multiple millions slaughtered.


4. The less educated also claim that the Constitution somehow inveighs against religion and mandates it be separated from government. Another falsity.
The first amendment, formulated by a learned and religious group, simply made certain that no government of America mandated a particular belief. Or, have none at all.




Sooooo......where is the 'threat' of a theocracy?????
You go to a government school. You really don't know anything about the constitution.

While your and my ancestors were excluded from citizenship, the story is told that the people who came here from England did so to get away from being oppressed by the church of England. So the first amendment was create to state that America will have no national religion. No theocracy allowed.
 

JoeB131

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"If you think Gay marriage or Abortion are bad... don't have one."

I feel the same way about murder and bank robbery.....your approach appears to fall short....as does your intellect.
That's nice.

Funny thing, most people would agree with you that murder is bad. That's why Murder laws are enforceable... People will turn in their own family members for murder.

There is not agreement on Abortion. The thing was, when it was still "illegal", women had them. All the time. People weren't arrested for having them, people were only arrested for performing them when they messed up and injured the woman.

I'm sorry this simple pragmatism escapes you, but that's the problem with talking to a fanatic.
 
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PoliticalChic

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Atheism can’t sustain a rights-based, virtue-based system as a God-less ideology. Rousseau, Hegel and Marx took the opposite view, and the result was multiple millions slaughtered.
Just as many were slaughtered by God-fearing Christians... The Nazis didn't wear belt buckles that said, "Atheism is nifty", they wore ones that said this.

View attachment 285374

For those who don't speak German, it translates to "God With Us"

I love that response....it is so very easy to destroy.


First.....secularism:

"Over the past 100 years the most oppressive ideology in the world has been communism [Marxism]. While the people who lived under it were starved, tortured and murdered, its leaders lived in luxury.
The suppression of ordinary people by their communist rulers far surpasses anything capitalist employers were ever accused of doing. While condemning exploitation, communist dictators turned out to be masters at it.

a. R.J. Rummel estimates that almost 170 million people were killed in the 20th century by their own governments. These are not deaths in war. They are the victims of genocide by the governments in the countries where they lived. Hate on the Left


Compared to the timeline of Christianity
1,128,000,000


Isn't religion to blame for most of history's killings?





Now....the comparison with religion:

"Some people blame organized religion for most of history's killings. It is also sometimes claimed that more people have been killed in the name of Christ than for any other reason.

The total number of deaths estimated to lie at the feet of humanity's poor practice of Christianity is approximately 17 million. This number would include ancient wars, the Crusades, the Inquisitions, various European wars during the Middle Ages, and witchcraft trials."
Isn't religion to blame for most of history's killings?



In short,
Rule #2
To know what the Left is guilty of, just watch what they blame the other side of doing.
 
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PoliticalChic

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Hey, I am sure the Nazis honestly thought that they were doing God's work.

The fact is, every Christian Nation in Europe was happy to send volunteers to help the Nazis cleanse the world of the Jews.

Yeah, after the war, everyone felt really bad about it. The Vatican even decided to make sure part of Vatican 2 was to absolve the Jews of Jesus' murder. (even though according the bible, they totally killed the guy for blasphemy)

Another lie spread by those who need to shield the Nazis.

They were not Christians.


Timeline of Key Events: Nazism & Churches
1933 - New government and the Catholic Church sign an agreement in which it is indicated that each will respect the other's role
-The government is supportive of the creation of the Reich Church
1934 -Confessional Church breaks away from Reich Church
-2 Protestant Bishops arrested but shortly released
1925 -700 Prussian Protestant pastors are arrested as they condemned the Nazi neo-paganism
1936 -The National Socialist Teachers League asks members not to teach religion.
-Bishop of Munster thanks Hitler for remilitarizing the Rhineland.
-Hundreds of Confessional pastors are sent to concentration camps for criticising the Nazi ideology.
1937 -Crucifixes are banned from classrooms no more.
-Pope criticizes Nazism and its racist nature.
1939 -Faulhaber has a special service to celebrate Hitler surviving an assassination attempt.
1941 -Churches welcome German attack of USSR.
 
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PoliticalChic

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Atheism can’t sustain a rights-based, virtue-based system as a God-less ideology. Rousseau, Hegel and Marx took the opposite view, and the result was multiple millions slaughtered.
Just as many were slaughtered by God-fearing Christians... The Nazis didn't wear belt buckles that said, "Atheism is nifty", they wore ones that said this.

View attachment 285374

For those who don't speak German, it translates to "God With Us"
Your lack of historical rigor knows no bounds. The Nazis were very much anti-Church since they saw it as a threat to their political power. They instead sought to establish a Reich Church which would be compatible with Nazi rule & in-step with Nazi ideology. This was very similar to the Soviet Orthodox Church which was an attempt by the Leninists to replace the Russian Orthodox Church. In any case, neither of these so-called state churches were anywhere near being in-step with God or being labeled as theocratic.
They make The State their god.

Post #2 stands.


Absolutely.
The demand for bending the neck and the knee to the state.....

The Germans have a history of embracing authoritarian rule. As the German philosopher Hegel said, “The state says … you must obey …. The state has rights against the individual; its members have obligations, among them that of obeying without protest” (Ralf Dahrendorf, Society and Democracy in Germany).
 

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