Do YOU support Trump’s last ditch effort to convince Republican state legislatures to APPOINT pro-Trump Electors?

[Dont Taz Me Bro]

There is zero chance of this happening

I agree.

But, should any state legislators choose to do so, they would be well within legal boundaries, and I would not oppose it.

It might be legal, but it would be political suicide. If you guys really want to ramp up opposition to the Electoral College, that's the way to do it.

 

[Skylar]

You said " And if those State legislators believe that there was cheating "

They can't decide to select a new slate of electors based on their belief that there may have been cheating.

Yes... they can. It's the whole point of the ****'n thread.

They would have to change the state

The state legislators may have decided to use popular vote to decide... but it's STILL THE STATE LEGISLATORS THAT HAVE THE FINAL SAY. THEY ARE THE DECIDING FACTOR.

They passed state laws that bind the elector to the popular vote. They can break the law that the state legislatures passed because they believe they should? They can't override the law. That's not to say that something gumming up the works in the certification of the election results couldn't possibly result in them getting to vote on a slate of electors.

Oh, any attempt would break LOADS of state laws. But whether it was constitutionally permissible is unclear.

What’s more, such a move would justifiably be seen by much of the public as a coup. It is a terrible idea.

But even more fundamentally, the Supreme Court has unanimously undercut the core premise to this argument for legislative superpower. And we should know. We argued the opposite before the court this year, in the context of presidential electors, rather than state legislatures, going rogue—and we lost.

The legal theory that would allow state legislatures to go rogue and appoint electors without regard for the popular vote rests on an argument made by Chief Justice William Rehnquist in Bush v. Gore, for himself and two other justices. On this view, a legislature is unconstrained in its power to set the manner by which electors are selected—meaning that even after an election, the legislature could ignore the results and select a different slate altogether. A recent opinion by Justice Brett Kavanaugh suggests that Rehnquist’s argument may again be on the rise.

But advocates for this view need to recognize that between Bush v. Gore and today, the Supreme Court has unanimously decided that presidential electors are not actually “electors” but instead are bound to the people’s vote. That principle that cabins elector discretion must also constrain legislatures—at least if the country is to avoid an abomination that the Framers expressly rejected.

State Legislatures Can’t Ignore the Popular Vote in Appointing Electors

The Supreme Court has unanimously undercut the core premise to this argument.

www.lawfareblog.com

It would be a really tough sell. The idea that the vote of the people should be set aside if partisan legislators don't like the outcome is not a great pitch to the electorate you're disenfranchising.

Plus, it would almost certainly be illegal at the State level.

Bush V. Gore was ambiguous on the issue of whether or not the state could seize its power back from the people after an election but before the electors were actually seated. They seemed to insinuate that they may be able to if in accordance with State laws.....but it was in a tangental discussion of the proposed consequences of missing the 'safe harbor' date in weighing the costs of election delays. So it falls firmly in the 'dicta' category of USSC commentary.

The issue has never been resolved constitutionally.

 

[Shelzin]

"Illegimitimize' is vague term. You'll need to get more specific about what you mean.

I mean they can simply say it didn't happen as it should have... And do whatever it is they do to make it right. That could be anything from recounting, holding a complete revote, or simply throwing the whole thing out and saying we aren't a part of the election this year... I don't know... It's up to the state legislators.

As for whether or not they can alter the method a state's electors are appointed by AFTER an election.....is unclear.

If they cannot....then the people in 50 of 50 States are the 'deciding factor' for the elections that they've voted in...by your own standards.

No... Not by my standards... By the STATE LIGISLATORS standards. I understand what you are saying... But you can't seem to grasp that the State Legislators trump the voting process. Why is that?

Edit: ahh... Maybe this will get through...

If something DECIDES THE FACTORS of a thing... Then it ***IS*** the DECIDING FACTOR.

 

[Shelzin]

It might be legal, but it would be political suicide. If you guys really want to ramp up opposition to the Electoral College, that's the way to do it.

That's why there has to be proof. I'll fight if it's true. I'll risk dying if it's true. And if I'll risk dying, I'm absolutely willing to kill. But there has to be proof.

 

[Mac1958]

Then there is absolutely no sense in having future elections. Trump is bordering on treason, throw the son of a ***** out.

I was pretty concerned about this presidency. But down deep I kind of assumed that he would grow into, at least a bit.

I was definitely wrong. All of his worst qualities and impulses have come out unimpeded, and we're in a real mess. Worse than I feared.

 

[Skylar]

"Illegimitimize' is vague term. You'll need to get more specific about what you mean.

I mean they can simply say it didn't happen as it should have... And do whatever it is they do to make it right. That could be anything from recounting, holing a complete revote, or simply throwing the whole thing out and saying we aren't a part of the election this year... I don't know... It's up to the state legislators.

Recounts are possible, but would have to fall within State laws. Georgia did one for example....because the results fell within their trigger percentage for close elections. Arizona and Wisconsin didn't for the same reasons.

So extra-legal recounts seem....unlikely. There may be a middle ground, like Wisconsin allowing a recount if the candidate is willing to pay for it. But that's already written into their law. Most states have no such provisions.

The other possibilities you spoke of are all extra-legal. No state legislature has the authority to simply disregard election results. Otherwise, they could just declare that any atempt to unseat them was invalid. Instead, they would need really compelling evidence to survive a judicial review of any attempt.

And there's zero indication that such evidence exists.

No... Not by my standards... By the STATE LIGISLATORS standards. I understand what you are saying... But you can't seem to grasp that the State Legislators trump the voting process. Why is that?

If the State legislators can't reclaim their authority.....then they are not the deciding factor. The people who voted are.

 

[blackhawk]

Let’s all just ignore the fact other party tried the same type of stuff four years ago here is a news flash it won’t go the way Republicans want now just like it didn’t for the Democrats four years ago.
CNN pundit says Trump's rumored actions 'out of bounds,' but is reminded Dems did same in 2016 — Fox News

 

[Skylar]

Let’s all just ignore the fact other party tried the same type of stuff four years ago here is a news flash it won’t go the way Republicans want now just like it didn’t for the Democrats four years ago.
CNN pundit says Trump's rumored actions 'out of bounds,' but is reminded Dems did same in 2016 — Fox News

Clinton conceded with in 24 hours. Trump was invited to the White House within 48.

Its been more than 2 weeks.

 

[L.K.Eder]

I wonder what most ordinary Republicans would say and do if Trump were to convince Republican-controlled legislatures (as in Georgia & Michigan) to ignore the statewide popular vote for Biden, dismiss it as fraudulent on the basis of no real court-certified evidence, and appoint Republican Electors to re-elect Trump?

That now seems to be his “Plan C.” In the unlikely and god-awful case that he became President in this way, Trump and his Republican supporters would truly be leading us to Civil War. It would be an historical point marking the degeneration of our democratic traditions, and the transformation of our country into a rightwing “Banana Republic.”

Sad to say, this undemocratic attempt at a “coup” is exactly what Trump seems to be trying to do right now, as outlined clearly in this FOX report. Do YOU support such conduct? Where do our Republican USMBers — especially those claiming to be critical of Trump in some ways — stand on such efforts?

Trump to meet Michigan leaders in bid to block Biden victory

Two Michigan state legislators headed to the White House on Friday as President Donald Trump made an extraordinary and sure-to-be futile attempt to block Joe Biden’s victory in the battleground state and subvert the results of the 2020 presidential election.

www.fox5dc.com

I support it.........but at this point with the dems illegal and immoral attempts to enslave america with Covid, to rob us, and to take away our vote by fraud while selling us out to our enemies...I support a full blown insurrection.

you are insane. and that is on topic.

 

[Mac1958]

And the party, scared shitless that Trump will tweet bad things about them, remains largely silent.

What a disgrace.

 

[Shelzin]

"Illegimitimize' is vague term. You'll need to get more specific about what you mean.

I mean they can simply say it didn't happen as it should have... And do whatever it is they do to make it right. That could be anything from recounting, holing a complete revote, or simply throwing the whole thing out and saying we aren't a part of the election this year... I don't know... It's up to the state legislators.

Recounts are possible, but would have to fall within State laws. Georgia did one for example....because the results fell within their trigger percentage for close elections. Arizona and Wisconsin didn't for the same reasons.

So extra-legal recounts seem....unlikely. There may be a middle ground, like Wisconsin allowing a recount if the candidate is willing to pay for it. But that's already written into their law. Most states have no such provisions.

The other possibilities you spoke of are all extra-legal. No state legislature has the authority to simply disregard election results. Otherwise, they could just declare that any atempt to unseat them was invalid. Instead, they would need really compelling evidence to survive a judicial review of any attempt.

And there's zero indication that such evidence exists.

You asked for what a illegitimate vote could mean. I gave you some. I don't know the laws of every state.

If the State legislators can't reclaim their authority.....then they are not the deciding factor. The people who voted are.

If something DECIDES THE FACTORS of a thing... Then it ***IS*** the DECIDING FACTOR.

 

[Skylar]

I wonder what most ordinary Republicans would say and do if Trump were to convince Republican-controlled legislatures (as in Georgia & Michigan) to ignore the statewide popular vote for Biden, dismiss it as fraudulent on the basis of no real court-certified evidence, and appoint Republican Electors to re-elect Trump?

That now seems to be his “Plan C.” In the unlikely and god-awful case that he became President in this way, Trump and his Republican supporters would truly be leading us to Civil War. It would be an historical point marking the degeneration of our democratic traditions, and the transformation of our country into a rightwing “Banana Republic.”

Sad to say, this undemocratic attempt at a “coup” is exactly what Trump seems to be trying to do right now, as outlined clearly in this FOX report. Do YOU support such conduct? Where do our Republican USMBers — especially those claiming to be critical of Trump in some ways — stand on such efforts?

Trump to meet Michigan leaders in bid to block Biden victory

Two Michigan state legislators headed to the White House on Friday as President Donald Trump made an extraordinary and sure-to-be futile attempt to block Joe Biden’s victory in the battleground state and subvert the results of the 2020 presidential election.

www.fox5dc.com

I support it.........but at this point with the dems illegal and immoral attempts to enslave america with Covid, to rob us, and to take away our vote by fraud while selling us out to our enemies...I support a full blown insurrection.

you are insane. and that is on topic.

Conservatives are starting to realize that their party is dying and their ideology is unpersuasive. So rather than re-examine both......they are turning to support of violence.

Its the fetid stench that marks a rotting corpse of a party.

 

[BlindBoo]

But you can't seem to grasp that the State Legislators trump the voting process. Why is that?

Because the Legislators are not above the law. They would have to pass another law to take the binding away from the popular vote. In Michigan the gov. would just veto that bill.

 

[Skylar]

"Illegimitimize' is vague term. You'll need to get more specific about what you mean.

I mean they can simply say it didn't happen as it should have... And do whatever it is they do to make it right. That could be anything from recounting, holing a complete revote, or simply throwing the whole thing out and saying we aren't a part of the election this year... I don't know... It's up to the state legislators.

Recounts are possible, but would have to fall within State laws. Georgia did one for example....because the results fell within their trigger percentage for close elections. Arizona and Wisconsin didn't for the same reasons.

So extra-legal recounts seem....unlikely. There may be a middle ground, like Wisconsin allowing a recount if the candidate is willing to pay for it. But that's already written into their law. Most states have no such provisions.

The other possibilities you spoke of are all extra-legal. No state legislature has the authority to simply disregard election results. Otherwise, they could just declare that any atempt to unseat them was invalid. Instead, they would need really compelling evidence to survive a judicial review of any attempt.

And there's zero indication that such evidence exists.

You asked for what a illegitimate vote could mean. I gave you some. I don't know the laws of every state.

I'm saying that these acts to 'illegitimize' the election you described are in most cases, implausible and extra legal. And thus, outside the State Legislatures actual capacity to do.

If the State legislators can't reclaim their authority.....then they are not the deciding factor. The people who voted are.

If something DECIDES THE FACTORS of a thing... Then it ***IS*** the DECIDING FACTOR.
[/QUOTE]

Once the votes are cast, if the State Legislatures can't override them....they aren't the deciding factor. The people who voted are.

 

[blackhawk]

Let’s all just ignore the fact other party tried the same type of stuff four years ago here is a news flash it won’t go the way Republicans want now just like it didn’t for the Democrats four years ago.
CNN pundit says Trump's rumored actions 'out of bounds,' but is reminded Dems did same in 2016 — Fox News

Clinton conceded with in 24 hours. Trump was invited to the White House within 48.

Its been more than 2 weeks.

None of that changes the fact Democrats still tried to convince the electors not to vote for Trump. Everyone right and left can try and put all the partisan spin out they want it changes nothing Biden will be sworn in on time just like Trump was four years ago everyone can return to their it’s only wrong when the other side does it BS.

 

[Shelzin]

Because the Legislators are not above the law. They would have to pass another law to take the binding away from the popular vote. In Michigan the gov. would just veto that bill.

You're right. They also make the laws... So they know if they can do a thing or not.

 

[Skylar]

But you can't seem to grasp that the State Legislators trump the voting process. Why is that?

Because the Legislators are not above the law. They would have to pass another law to take the binding away from the popular vote. In Michigan the gov. would just veto that bill.

Maybe. For all intents and purposes, probably.

Constitutionally, the authority isn't vested in the State, but the State Legislature specifically. So its as yet constitutionally undetermined if the State Legislatures can just retain their authority and override a vote.

It would almost certainly be wildly illegal on a State level, though.

 

[L.K.Eder]

I wonder what most ordinary Republicans would say and do if Trump were to convince Republican-controlled legislatures (as in Georgia & Michigan) to ignore the statewide popular vote for Biden, dismiss it as fraudulent on the basis of no real court-certified evidence, and appoint Republican Electors to re-elect Trump?

That now seems to be his “Plan C.” In the unlikely and god-awful case that he became President in this way, Trump and his Republican supporters would truly be leading us to Civil War. It would be an historical point marking the degeneration of our democratic traditions, and the transformation of our country into a rightwing “Banana Republic.”

Sad to say, this undemocratic attempt at a “coup” is exactly what Trump seems to be trying to do right now, as outlined clearly in this FOX report. Do YOU support such conduct? Where do our Republican USMBers — especially those claiming to be critical of Trump in some ways — stand on such efforts?

Trump to meet Michigan leaders in bid to block Biden victory

Two Michigan state legislators headed to the White House on Friday as President Donald Trump made an extraordinary and sure-to-be futile attempt to block Joe Biden’s victory in the battleground state and subvert the results of the 2020 presidential election.

www.fox5dc.com

I support it.........but at this point with the dems illegal and immoral attempts to enslave america with Covid, to rob us, and to take away our vote by fraud while selling us out to our enemies...I support a full blown insurrection.

you are insane. and that is on topic.

Conservatives are starting to realize that their party is dying and their ideology is unpersuasive. So rather than re-examine both......they are turning to support of violence.

Its the fetid stench that marks a rotting corpse of a party.

your whole system is rotten. a healthy immune system would never have been infested with the orange virus in the first place. and now you did not even manage to solidly get rid of him. metastasis

 

[Shelzin]

Once the votes are cast, if the State Legislatures can't override them....they aren't the deciding factor. The people who voted are.

Unless the State Legislatures decide that it wasn't a proper (illegal) vote. **** you are thick. Hell, you might be just as thick as me. Maybe.

 

[L.K.Eder]

There is zero chance of this happening

I agree.

But, should any state legislators choose to do so, they would be well within legal boundaries, and I would not oppose it.

It might be legal, but it would be political suicide. If you guys really want to ramp up opposition to the Electoral College, that's the way to do it.

it would fail in Michigan. they have updated their law.