Do the poor earn their income?

[syrenn]

Considering all the hubbub over the "rich" not paying their fair share or earning their income.

It begs a better question: Do the the poor earn their income?


The working poor are obviously working very hard to earn their incomes but in the same breath pay no federal income tax.

Then there are the poor who do not work and do nothing but receive entitlements and aid for a living. Do these poor "earn" their income?

 

[Trajan]

not imho but they can riot and create street sweeping jobs

 

[Trajan]

in all seriousness, I think this is worth a look;

snip-


The riots are the apotheosis of the welfare state and popular culture in their British form. A population thinks (because it has often been told so by intellectuals and the political class) that it is entitled to a high standard of consumption, irrespective of its personal efforts; and therefore it regards the fact that it does not receive that high standard, by comparison with the rest of society, as a sign of injustice. It believes itself deprived (because it has often been told so by intellectuals and the political class), even though each member of it has received an education costing $80,000, toward which neither he nor—quite likely—any member of his family has made much of a contribution; indeed, he may well have lived his entire life at others’ expense, such that every mouthful of food he has ever eaten, every shirt he has ever worn, every television he has ever watched, has been provided by others. Even if he were to recognize this, he would not be grateful, for dependency does not promote gratitude. On the contrary, he would simply feel that the subventions were not sufficient to allow him to live as he would have liked.

At the same time, his expensive education will have equipped him for nothing. His labor, even supposing that he were inclined to work, would not be worth its cost to any employer—partly because of the social charges necessary to keep others such as he in a state of permanent idleness, and partly because of his own characteristics. And so unskilled labor is performed in England by foreigners, while an indigenous class of permanently unemployed is subsidized.

The culture of the person in this situation is not such as to elevate his behavior. One in which the late Amy Winehouse—the vulgar, semicriminal drug addict and alcoholic singer of songs whose lyrics effectively celebrated the most degenerate kind of life imaginable—could be raised to the status of heroine is not one that is likely to protect against bad behavior.

Finally, long experience of impunity has taught the rioters that they have nothing to fear from the law, which in England has become almost comically lax—except, that is, for the victims of crime. For the rioters, crime has become the default setting of their behavior; the surprising thing about the riots is not that they have occurred, but that they did not occur sooner and did not become chronic.

British Degeneracy on Parade by Theodore Dalrymple - City Journal

 

[waltky]

1996 income with 2011 prices...

Household income drops to lowest point since '96
13 Sept.`11 - The median income of U.S. households fell 2.3% in 2010 to the lowest level since 1996 after adjusting for inflation, the Census Bureau reported Tuesday.

The weak economy has driven median household income down for three straight years, to $49,445 in 2010, a total 6.8% decline since the recession began in December 2007. The government says the recession ended in June 2009. Poor people and minorities were hit hardest. Median income for black households fell 3.6% to $32,206 while white household income dropped 1.3% to $54,620. Income fell least for the most affluent households — down 1.2% to $180,810 in 2010 for the top 5% of households. Income declines got increasingly large down the income ladder. The bottom fifth of households — those making $20,000 or less in 2010 — saw incomes decline 3.8% after inflation.

"There is a widening of the gap between the extreme top and bottom," said Edward Welniak, chief of income statistics at the Census. Hard times are forcing people to "double-up" — live with their parents or other family members, said Trudi Renwick, chief of poverty statistics. The number of households doubling-up grew from 19.7 million in 2007 to 21.8 million in spring 2011, she said. The number of adults ages 25-34 still living with their parents was especially notable, she said.

Other key findings:

•Poverty rate. The portion of households living in poverty rose from 14.3% to 15.1%. The number of families living in poverty rose 2.6 million to 46.2 million, the largest increase since Census began keeping track 52 years ago. A family of four is considered in poverty if income is $22,314 or below. The poverty measures cash income before taxes. A measure that includes the value of Medicaid, food stamps and other government programs will be released in October.

•Health insurance. The share of people without health insurance was unchanged at 16.3%. The number of people with private insurance fell while the number covered by government programs increased.

Source

See also:

Poverty rate rises in America
September 13, 2011: Amid a still struggling economy, more people in America fell below the poverty line last year, according to new census data released Tuesday.

The nation's poverty rate rose to 15.1% in 2010, its highest level since 1993. In 2009, 14.3% of people in America were living in poverty. "The results are not surprising given the economy," said Paul Osterman, a labor economist at MIT. "You would expect with so many people unemployed, the poverty rate would go up. It's just another sign of what a difficult time this is for so many people." About 46.2 million people are now considered in poverty, 2.6 million more than last year. The government defines the poverty line as income of $22,314 a year for a family of four and $11,139 for an individual. The Office of Management and Budget updates the poverty line each year to account for inflation.

Middle-class wealth falls: For middle-class families, income fell in 2010. The median household income was $49,445, down slightly from $49,777 the year before. Median income has changed very little over the last 30 years. Adjusted for inflation, the middle-income family only earned 11% more in 2010 than they did in 1980, while the richest 5% in America saw their incomes surge 42%. "Over that period of time, it's not that the American economy has necessarily performed badly," Osterman said. "As a country we're richer over that period, but there's been this real shift in where the income has gone, and it's to the top." Amplifying that trend, the bottom 60% of households saw their income fall last year, while households making $100,000 or more enjoyed a rise in income.

More children in poverty: The poverty rate for children under age 18 increased to 22% in 2010, meaning more than 1 in 5 children in America are living in poverty. Meanwhile, the poverty rate for adults ages 18 to 64 rose to 13.7%. For people 65 and older, the poverty rate was barely changed at 9%. Following the recession, fewer young adults are moving out of their parents' homes. Last year, 5.9 million young adults age 25 to 34 still lived with their folks, compared with 4.7 million before the recession.

Race and gender factors: By race, the poverty rate was lowest for non-Hispanic whites at 9.9%. Blacks had the highest rate at 27.4%, followed by people of Hispanic origin at 26.6%. Asians had a poverty rate of 12.1%. About 14% of men were below the poverty line, compared to 16.2% of women. Families headed by a married couple had only a 6.2% poverty rate, whereas families with a single mother had a 31.6% rate, and families with a single father had a 15.8% rate.

South hit the hardest:

 

[Soggy in NOLA]

Considering all the hubbub over the "rich" not paying their fair share or earning their income.

It begs a better question: Do the the poor earn their income?


The working poor are obviously working very hard to earn their incomes but in the same breath pay no federal income tax.

Then there are the poor who do not work and do nothing but receive entitlements and aid for a living. Do these poor "earn" their income?

If they work for it, yes. Otherwise, no, because it's not income.

 

[syrenn]

Considering all the hubbub over the "rich" not paying their fair share or earning their income.

It begs a better question: Do the the poor earn their income?


The working poor are obviously working very hard to earn their incomes but in the same breath pay no federal income tax.

Then there are the poor who do not work and do nothing but receive entitlements and aid for a living. Do these poor "earn" their income?

If they work for it, yes. Otherwise, no, because it's not income.

If it imoney/entitlements... are handed to them... its income.


The question this was spun off of was if the "rich" earn theirs...... I say they do.

Do the poor "earn" their "income" ... is say they do not.

 

[Remodeling Maidiac]

Someone has to pay for their 50" tv's and xbox's

 

[DontBeStupid]

The working poor are obviously working very hard to earn their incomes but in the same breath pay no federal income tax.

When did federal income taxes become the bench mark for fairness?

You know the working poor pay a larger percentage of their income in sales tax and payrolls taxes. Much larger share than the "rich". Shouldn't we then raise those taxes on the rich in addition to raising income taxes on the poor?

 

[Soggy in NOLA]

Considering all the hubbub over the "rich" not paying their fair share or earning their income.

It begs a better question: Do the the poor earn their income?


The working poor are obviously working very hard to earn their incomes but in the same breath pay no federal income tax.

Then there are the poor who do not work and do nothing but receive entitlements and aid for a living. Do these poor "earn" their income?

If they work for it, yes. Otherwise, no, because it's not income.

If it imoney/entitlements... are handed to them... its income.


The question this was spun off of was if the "rich" earn theirs...... I say they do.

Do the poor "earn" their "income" ... is say they do not.

Sorry, I regard those payments to the poor as receipt of transfer payments. It's certainly not earned.

 

[Soggy in NOLA]

Someone has to pay for their 50" tv's and xbox's

my xbox just died and now i need to replace it. Lucky i sold off a few things so i have enough to buy a new one. Weighing my options i even saved 50$ by buying the HDD separate from the xbox.

I am classified as poor. Its been a messed up summer for my construction work. ( the work is there but the boss and such have been dragging ass on work)

Right now i need every penny i can muster for food, gas and baby shit. Taking 5% taxes out of mu pay check will affect me a lot more than someone making 250k a year.

I've lived off 20k a year, so to sit there and say you are struggling to make it when you make 250k a year is a fucking joke.

I will trade anyday of the week. That being said i am not for taking people out the wazoo either. a reasonable rate is fine.

Why is it you have to live off $20k a year and why do you need money for baby shit?

 

[flacaltenn]

Considering all the hubbub over the "rich" not paying their fair share or earning their income.

It begs a better question: Do the the poor earn their income?


The working poor are obviously working very hard to earn their incomes but in the same breath pay no federal income tax.

Then there are the poor who do not work and do nothing but receive entitlements and aid for a living. Do these poor "earn" their income?

If they work for it, yes. Otherwise, no, because it's not income.

If it imoney/entitlements... are handed to them... its income.


The question this was spun off of was if the "rich" earn theirs...... I say they do.

Do the poor "earn" their "income" ... is say they do not.

You know Syrenn that govt money always comes with strings. A person recieving govt entitlements or housing is subject to some indignities already. Such as drug testing, apt inspections, regular interviews with unemployment ect..

However -- If it's really a social contract to provide this safety net -- how much could we ask (demand) in return? Really want to fix some problems? How about losing your entitlements if your teen drops out of high school? How about losing WICC Dollars if you become pregnant again under WICC?

Could we "ask" these things as part of the contract? (I wouldn't if it was charity). If we can't ask for stuff in return -- it's not really a work contract is it?

 

[Soggy in NOLA]

my xbox just died and now i need to replace it. Lucky i sold off a few things so i have enough to buy a new one. Weighing my options i even saved 50$ by buying the HDD separate from the xbox.

I am classified as poor. Its been a messed up summer for my construction work. ( the work is there but the boss and such have been dragging ass on work)

Right now i need every penny i can muster for food, gas and baby shit. Taking 5% taxes out of mu pay check will affect me a lot more than someone making 250k a year.

I've lived off 20k a year, so to sit there and say you are struggling to make it when you make 250k a year is a fucking joke.

I will trade anyday of the week. That being said i am not for taking people out the wazoo either. a reasonable rate is fine.

Why is it you have to live off $20k a year and why do you need money for baby shit?

wife took off three months after the kid was born. ( he is only four months)

Why do i need baby shit? Oh i dont know, i like having my kid clothed, eating and entertained.

lifes a struggle right now, but it wont always be this way.

Oh, baby shit..

 

[Remodeling Maidiac]

Someone has to pay for their 50" tv's and xbox's

my xbox just died and now i need to replace it. Lucky i sold off a few things so i have enough to buy a new one. Weighing my options i even saved 50$ by buying the HDD separate from the xbox.

I am classified as poor. Its been a messed up summer for my construction work. ( the work is there but the boss and such have been dragging ass on work)

Right now i need every penny i can muster for food, gas and baby shit. Taking 5% taxes out of mu pay check will affect me a lot more than someone making 250k a year.

I've lived off 20k a year, so to sit there and say you are struggling to make it when you make 250k a year is a fucking joke.

I will trade anyday of the week. That being said i am not for taking people out the wazoo either. a reasonable rate is fine.

What is your GT?

 

[uscitizen]

Most working poor work far harder than a hedge fund broker for instance.

 

[OODA_Loop]

Demonstrate that you are productive, self-accountable citizen that after due effort of your own output needs temporary assistance with things to make your children more educated or healthier and I am all for helping with essentials.

Our system is being gamed in every aspect and the give a damn of working stiffs like me is pret' near give out.

 

[Caroljo]

my xbox just died and now i need to replace it. Lucky i sold off a few things so i have enough to buy a new one. Weighing my options i even saved 50$ by buying the HDD separate from the xbox.

I am classified as poor. Its been a messed up summer for my construction work. ( the work is there but the boss and such have been dragging ass on work)

Right now i need every penny i can muster for food, gas and baby shit. Taking 5% taxes out of mu pay check will affect me a lot more than someone making 250k a year.

I've lived off 20k a year, so to sit there and say you are struggling to make it when you make 250k a year is a fucking joke.

I will trade anyday of the week. That being said i am not for taking people out the wazoo either. a reasonable rate is fine.

Why is it you have to live off $20k a year and why do you need money for baby shit?

wife took off three months after the kid was born. ( he is only four months)

Why do i need baby shit? Oh i dont know, i like having my kid clothed, eating and entertained.

lifes a struggle right now, but it wont always be this way.

Bless you...and i hope everything works out soon!

 

[uscitizen]

Lets just let all the working poor quit and see how the haves like not having clean bathrooms, food prepared for them, etc.

There are no unimportant low paid jobs only some unimportant high paid ones.

 

[manifold]

Wow, Syrenn is every bit as pithy and wise as she is beautiful.

It makes perfect sense to me now. Poor people don't earn shit and have it made in the shade. That is precisely why it's every American's dream to be penniless, homeless and starving.

 

[syrenn]

The working poor are obviously working very hard to earn their incomes but in the same breath pay no federal income tax.

When did federal income taxes become the bench mark for fairness?

You know the working poor pay a larger percentage of their income in sales tax and payrolls taxes. Much larger share than the "rich". Shouldn't we then raise those taxes on the rich in addition to raising income taxes on the poor?

this thread was made in response to one that was running at the time. "do the rich earn their income"


I am not speaking only of the "working" poor. Everyone pays sales tax... rich and poor alike. Though i would make the case that the rich.... pay more in sales tax.

How about the just plane old poor....who do jack shit. Are they earning their income?

 

[WatertheTree]

Considering all the hubbub over the "rich" not paying their fair share or earning their income.

It begs a better question: Do the the poor earn their income?


The working poor are obviously working very hard to earn their incomes but in the same breath pay no federal income tax.

Then there are the poor who do not work and do nothing but receive entitlements and aid for a living. Do these poor "earn" their income?

If they work for it, yes. Otherwise, no, because it's not income.

If it imoney/entitlements... are handed to them... its income.


The question this was spun off of was if the "rich" earn theirs...... I say they do.

Do the poor "earn" their "income" ... is say they do not.

Your right, I say poor people stop fighting to maintain the status quo and just stop working. It is hardly worth it anyway, just let it go.

Then we can see how the 'class that earns' survives when they dont have wage slaves earning money for them.

Now shut your pie hole before we start thinking that you would like to go back to plantation days, and all the blacks can be replaced with people who were unfortunate enough to be born into a household with no capitol.