Zone1 Do Christians Proselytize out of “Love” - or Arrogance?

[Lisa558]

just think legend &/or religious belief. I don't recall his bar mitzvah. Anyway---the conception of the conception may have been a family secret. Who can you tell-----the local Yenta?

There seems to be some evidence of his sojourn to Jerusalem when he was 13. It wouldn’t have been a traditional Bar Mitvah the way we think of it today, but he would have been called to the Torah to read.

 

[Lisa558]

It is actually crediting the Jews as God chose the Jews for this miracle.

No, she was saying that people CLAIMED Jews called Jesus a mamzer - blaming them for disrespecting Jesus with that word. I had never even heard of that, and had to be educated as to the meaning of the word.

 

[Lisa558]

Is there any well-known person or any child of a famous person where we know every move from birth on?

Not every move, but a LOT….and remember, this wasn’t just a child of a “famous person” - this was a child reported to have be born from a virgin.

 

[Meriweather]

There seems to be some evidence of his sojourn to Jerusalem when he was 13. It wouldn’t have been a traditional Bar Mitvah the way we think of it today, but he would have been called to the Torah to read.

He was twelve. He, his family, his community had traveled to Jerusalem to celebrate Passover.

 

[Lisa558]

He was twelve. He, his family, his community had traveled to Jerusalem to celebrate Passover.

And you do not think that coincided with his Bar Mitzvah? The timing is right, and would make sense.

 

[Meriweather]

No, she was saying that people CLAIMED Jews called Jesus a mamzer - blaming them for disrespecting Jesus with that word. I had never even heard of that, and had to be educated as to the meaning of the word.

As far as I know, no one in Jesus' time ever used that word directly. There may have been a time or two it was inferred. Basically, it begins in the modern age with someone (not a Jew) calls Jesus a bastard. At the time, 'bastard' was not in use. He would have been described as Mamzer, that had some negative aspects, but it also had some positive ones.

 

[Meriweather]

Not every move, but a LOT….and remember, this wasn’t just a child of a “famous person” - this was a child reported to have be born from a virgin.

How many do you imagine would give much credence to a teenage girl pregnant outside of a marriage bed?

 

[irosie91]

As far as I know, no one in Jesus' time ever used that word directly. There may have been a time or two it was inferred. Basically, it begins in the modern age with someone (not a Jew) calls Jesus a bastard. At the time, 'bastard' was not in use. He would have been described as Mamzer, that had some negative aspects, but it also had some positive ones.

Mamzer is not a NEW HEBREW WORD

 

[Meriweather]

And you do not think that coincided with his Bar Mitzvah? The timing is right, and would make sense.

Just noting that while Passover was mentioned, his Bar Mitzvah was not. I guess I always imagined that the reason his age was mentioned as twelve was so people understood it was before his Bar Mitzvah--but I don't know enough about Jewish customs to say for certain.

 

[Meriweather]

Mamzer is not a NEW HEBREW WORD

Didn't say it was. I said that was the word that would have been used in Biblical times.

 

[buttercup]

The thing is….and just between us…..if Jesus really was the product of an immaculate conception, wouldn’t people have followed the tyke’s every move from birth forward? It seems that nobody knows his whereabouts until he was around 30 (although there was an appearance at age 13 for his Bar Mitzvah.) Something doesn’t pass the smell test.

Does someone want to explain this to me?

Although we aren't told a lot about Jesus' early life, it's not completely unknown. We are told that the family fled to Egypt, and lived there for several years. According to the scriptures, an angel of the Lord appeared to Joseph and said, “take the child and his mother and escape to Egypt. Stay there until I tell you, for Herod is going to search for the child to kill him.” (Matthew 2:13-14)

Then it mentions the return to Israel from Egypt, in Matthew 2:19-23.

Then in Luke, it says that as the young Jesus grew, he was filled with wisdom, strong in spirit and the favor of God was upon him. (Luke 2:40)

Also, as I think you mentioned, there's the passage of Jesus in the temple, at age 12. It says he was sitting among the teachers, listening to them and asking them questions...and all who heard him were amazed at his understanding and his answers.

But I think the fact that we aren't told a lot about Jesus' childhood and youth is purposeful. This is just my opinion, but I would say that God wanted us to focus on Jesus' ministry and the very important events that we're told about in the Gospels. There's a scripture that says Jesus did many other things as well, and that if every one of them were written down, there would not be enough room in the world for all the books that would be written.

 

[surada]

The thing is….and just between us…..if Jesus really was the product of an immaculate conception, wouldn’t people have followed the tyke’s every move from birth forward? It seems that nobody knows his whereabouts until he was around 30 (although there was an appearance at age 13 for his Bar Mitzvah.) Something doesn’t pass the smell test.

Does someone want to explain this to me?

Mary is the immaculate conception, not Jesus.

 

[surada]

it's a very interesting book----who wrote it?

Scholars say it was written by Jewish Sages at the time when Antiochus IV Epiphanies was trying to Hellenize them and defiled the temple.

 

[SweetSue92]

Mary is the immaculate conception, not Jesus.

What nonsense is this?

 

[surada]

What nonsense is this?

Mary was concieved without original sin.

 

[SweetSue92]

Mary was concieved without original sin.

You realize there's not a single word about that in the Bible. It's Catholic "tradition". Meanwhile, did you actually just make the claim that Mary was conceived without sin but Jesus was not?

Whoa...and lol

 

[surada]

You realize there's not a single word about that in the Bible. It's Catholic "tradition". Meanwhile, did you actually just make the claim that Mary was conceived without sin but Jesus was not?

Whoa...and lol

Nope. I said Mary is the immaculate conception.

The tradition is older than the New testament.

Immaculate Conception | Definition, History, & Feast | Britannica

Immaculate Conception, Roman Catholic dogma asserting that Mary, mother of Jesus, was preserved from original sin from the instant of her conception.

www.britannica.com

 

[SweetSue92]

Nope. I said Mary is the immaculate conception.

The tradition is older than the New testament.

Immaculate Conception | Definition, History, & Feast | Britannica

Immaculate Conception, Roman Catholic dogma asserting that Mary, mother of Jesus, was preserved from original sin from the instant of her conception.

www.britannica.com

Go back and read what you typed in post 552. Are you drunk or high or what?

 

[surada]

Go back and read what you typed in post 552. Are you drunk or high or what?

Mary is called the immaculate conception. Jesus is called the son of God. Do you understand the distinction?

 

[irosie91]

Scholars say it was written by Jewish Sages at the time when Antiochus IV Epiphanies was trying to Hellenize them and defiled the temple.

the jewish sages of that time HAD NAMES. They did not write anonymously. Antiochus is very WELL
KNOWN ---not some sort of forgotten player as you
so often assert. What he was doing is also well known. Check your nite table in your local flop house-----the book of Maccabee is in DA BIBLE. "scholars say...."
Whoever did write the book------it remains of some questionable validity. The jewish sages WERE and ARE very fussy-----christian scholars like the really
vague imagery knocking about in the aramaic----they can ascribe all kinds of BS to it.