Zone1 Do Christians Proselytize out of “Love” - or Arrogance?

[Lisa558]

You realize you ran into one very peculiar church and you refuse to believe this is not the case with all Evangelical Churches, no matter what I or anyone else says, right?

I....guess you wouldn't take well to it if someone ran into a congregation of out-there Jews, you said 'hey that's not representative', and the person went clanging on about how XYZ "the Jews" are. You might even say that's bigoted.

The purpose of Evangelical Christians is to tell Jews that their beliefs are wrong and that they need Jesus, is it not, in the hope they will convert?

 

[SweetSue92]

The purpose of Evangelical Christians is to tell Jews that their beliefs are wrong and that they need Jesus, is it not, in the hope they will convert?

Not even close. Absolutely not.

 

[irosie91]

You know what's arrogant?

Telling other people who founded their religion. Self reflection is definitely in order

OH? I was not supposed to READ the christian literature thrust into my hands?
I am really entertained now. Since I was a child, "christian experts" have
explained Judaism to me. I have no "formal education" in religion---not even
"after school hebrew school" ----EXCEPT time in Sunday school on invitation from
good natured protestant mothers. But even as a kid of 8 I was an avid reader.
I was a blank page----this "BLANK PAGE" having read all the stuff christians
poked around-----and bit and pieces of jewish history--concluded that JESUS
HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH THE RELIGION "christianity" He was a typical
Pharisee jew of his time which is why the Romans crucified him along with
THOUSANDS of other PHARISEE JEWS (whom they hated---forever)

 

[Lisa558]

Oh honey. You could not be more wrong about that. I love to debate religion, mine included. But I'm not supposed to do that, per your rules. Saying to you that Jesus Christ is the only way to God is "arrogant", remember? I guess even stating that this is basic Christian doctrine is also "arrogant".

So what am I to do then? No debating.

Of course it’s arrogant (and rude) for a Christian to tell a Jew that the only way to G-d is if she adopts Christianity. How you can’t see that is beyond me.

If I only wore green, and then went around to everyone wearing a color other than green, telling them that GREEN is the only acceptable color to G-d and that they’d better start wearing green, like I do, that would be arrogant too.

 

[Lisa558]

Not even close. Absolutely not.

So what’s their purpose? Evangelicals are not supposed to evangelize?

 

[SweetSue92]

Of course it’s arrogant (and rude) for a Christian to tell a Jew that the only way to G-d is if she adopts Christianity. How you can’t see that is beyond me.

If I only wore green, and then went around to everyone wearing a color other than green, telling them that GREEN is the only acceptable color to G-d and that they’d better start wearing green, like I do, that would be arrogant too.

This seems like a YOU issue, doesn't it? Like it particularly bothers you. Maybe it's all mixed up in the EC your friends got mixed up in, I don't know.

 

[Lisa558]

OH? I was not supposed to READ the christian literature thrust into my hands?
I am really entertained now. Since I was a child, "christian experts" have
explained Judaism to me. I have no "formal education" in religion---not even
"after school hebrew school" ----EXCEPT time in Sunday school on invitation from
good natured protestant mothers. But even as a kid of 8 I was an avid reader.
I was a blank page----this "BLANK PAGE" having read all the stuff christians
poked around-----and bit and pieces of jewish history--concluded that JESUS
HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH THE RELIGION "christianity" He was a typical
Pharisee jew of his time which is why the Romans crucified him along with
THOUSANDS of other PHARISEE JEWS (whom they hated---forever)

Absolutely. Pilate considered Jesus a threat to Roman authority.

And Jews didn’t crucify people, anyway.

 

[irosie91]

Not even close. Absolutely not.

actually SPOT ON. My most interesting informant was a divinity student from
SETON HALL (a catholic college) He seemed to imagine that he knew all there is
to know about JUDAISM. His assertions were as absurd as those that appear on
this moronic messageboard. Now tell us again how the "HIGH PRIESTS" (in the time
of Jesus) were exhorting vast sums of money from the jews of Judea---so Jesus
sought to protect them from the CORRUPTION OF THE TEMPLE SYSTEM

 

[SweetSue92]

So what’s their purpose? Evangelicals are not supposed to evangelize?

The term evangelical, as I believe I typed before, just means "born again". In a culture where the default is "Christian"--which means, "I'm not Muslim, Pagan, Jewish, Hindu or Buddhist, so I guess I'm Christian cause I like Christmas" it defines us as being devout about it. We're not just cultural.

The Bible is full of examples wherein Jesus Himself withdrew from sharing His teaching, or asked people not to tell what happened. Similarly, the disciples showed great discernment about when and who to share with. The "Good News" is always an invitation to be accepted or rejected. Always. And it should be approached as such, so before a Christian even extends the invitation...you get a "feel" for whether the person is receptive. It should never be a sledgehammer. Or even close.

We have no particular calling to "strip" Jews of their faith. I would be honest about this: I have never read nor heard nor encountered such a thing. We don't think of attempting to "strip" people of faith. We think of introducing them to Jesus. That's it. See above: accepting or rejecting.

 

[Lisa558]

This seems like a YOU issue, doesn't it? Like it particularly bothers you. Maybe it's all mixed up in the EC your friends got mixed up in, I don't know.

There was an entire book out entitled something like “What People think about Christians who evangelize - and why we wish they would stop.” (Not that title exactly, but close.)

You are trying to assure yourself that I am a rarity, in that I don’t like Christians telling Jews they’re wrong, in order for you to feel more comfortable with your edict to spread the news to Jews about Jesus. No Jews like it. Mostly we’re polite, with a ”thanks, but no thanks,” but sometimes the insistence that we submit to your religion gets quite disprectful, and then we push back stronger.

 

[Lisa558]

The term evangelical, as I believe I typed before, just means "born again". In a culture where the default is "Christian"--which means, "I'm not Muslim, Pagan, Jewish, Hindu or Buddhist, so I guess I'm Christian cause I like Christmas" it defines us as being devout about it. We're not just cultural.

The Bible is full of examples wherein Jesus Himself withdrew from sharing His teaching, or asked people not to tell what happened. Similarly, the disciples showed great discernment about when and who to share with. The "Good News" is always an invitation to be accepted or rejected. Always. And it should be approached as such, so before a Christian even extends the invitation...you get a "feel" for whether the person is receptive. It should never be a sledgehammer. Or even close.

We have no particular calling to "strip" Jews of their faith. I would be honest about this: I have never read nor heard nor encountered such a thing. We don't think of attempting to "strip" people of faith. We think of introducing them to Jesus. That's it. See above: accepting or rejecting.

What do you mean you want to “introduce Jews to Jesus”? You think we never heard of him? You must think Jews are idiots.

 

[SweetSue92]

What do you mean you want to “introduce Jews to Jesus”? You think we never heard of him? You must think Jews are idiots.

See this is an example I hope you will reflect on.

Did I type "introduce Jews to Jesus"? Can you find it?

 

[Lisa558]

See this is an example I hope you will reflect on.

Did I type "introduce Jews to Jesus"? Can you find it?

You said, in speaking of Jews, “to introduce them to Jesus.” Same thing, and same point: what is accomplished by introducing Jews to Jesus? We already know about him.

 

[SweetSue92]

You said, in speaking of Jews, “to introduce them to Jesus.” Same thing, and same point: what is accomplished by introducing Jews to Jesus? We already know about him.

I didn't specify Jews and would not. The invitation is open to all. You have a real persecution complex.

 

[Lisa558]

I didn't specify Jews and would not. The invitation is open to all. You have a real persecution complex.

Yes you did. You specifically said that you don‘t consider it stripping JEWS of their faith - specifying JEWS - and then went on to say you consider it introducing them to Jesus.

And a Jew pointing out that she doesn’t like Christians disrespecting her religion by trying to get her to believe in Jesus - which is what you are trying to ultimately do by introducing her to Jesus - doesn’t mean she has a persecution complex. You are so unwilling to hear how Jews dislike being proselytized to that, in order for you to be comfortable with the idea that you are trying to get them to abandon Judaism, you go on the attack against a Jew who points out she dislikes it by saying she has a persecution complex.

Please, let the Jews be. All we want is for you to leave us alone. If that makes you feel less comfortable as you go around introducing us to Jesus, so be it.

 

[Lisa558]

I remember coming out of Yom Kippur services one year, and all the cars had a “Be Saved through Jesus” flyer on the windshield. How obnoxious.

 

[hjmick]

Arrogance.

 

[SweetSue92]

Yes you did. You specifically said that you don‘t consider it stripping JEWS of their faith - specifying JEWS - and then went on to say you consider it introducing them to Jesus.

And a Jew pointing out that she doesn’t like Christians disrespecting her religion by trying to get her to believe in Jesus - which is what you are trying to ultimately do by introducing her to Jesus - doesn’t mean she has a persecution complex. You are so unwilling to hear how Jews dislike being proselytized to that, in order for you to be comfortable with the idea that you are trying to get them to abandon Judaism, you go on the attack against a Jew who points out she dislikes it by saying she has a persecution complex.

Please, let the Jews be. All we want is for you to leave us alone. If that makes you feel less comfortable as you go around introducing us to Jesus, so be it.

Okay you think we are disrespecting your religion by "introducing you to Jesus"

I think you are disrespecting my religion by stating boldly who started my religion and who did not.

So, I guess we're even.

Too bad we can't get over the disrespect far enough to have a reasonable debate, which is what I prefer. But I can't debate you. When I discuss my religion you feel disrespected.

 

[Lisa558]

Okay you think we are disrespecting your religion by "introducing you to Jesus"

I think you are disrespecting my religion by stating boldly who started my religion and who did not.

So, I guess we're even.

Too bad we can't get over the disrespect far enough to have a reasonable debate, which is what I prefer. But I can't debate you. When I discuss my religion you feel disrespected.

What you don’t what to hear is that going over to Jews to introduce them to Jesus, and how he and he alone can “save” them, is an unwanted message. We KNOW you think we are lost souls and have no way to G-d unless we abandon our beliefs and religion, and adopt yours. It’s annoying at best when we have to hear it again.

That is nowhere in the level of discussing Paul’s role in starting Christianity. Yet you are inflamed that I would discuss that WITH ANOTHER JEW. Are we telling you that you will go to hell unless you come around to admitting Jesus was just a man? NO. No Jew says that - or thinks that - to Christians, and Jesus is never even mentioned in our services or classes. What Christians think about Jesus is irrelevant to us, until they start bugging us about it.

So let’s call a truce. You can believe that the only people with a way to G-d are those who follow your religion, and I believe people of any religion can do the same. The end.

 

[norwegen]

It was Paul moreso than Jesus.

Christianity could not have been founded more than once. Who knows how many thousands of correspondences must have been shared among churches in the 30s to 60s AD, Paul's canonized correspondences being only a small fraction of them. In his roughly twenty years as a Christian, he no doubt spoke of and wrote more about the faith than Jesus spoke of in his three-year ministry. And that was after Christ's ministry, of course, as Christians believe.

Paul wrote his letters after Christ's death, even after the Jerusalem Council circa 50 AD, a Christian council. Unfortunately, in his surviving letters, Paul seldom quotes Christ, but quotes him nonetheless regarding the last supper (1 Cor 11:24).