Ditch Donald, embrace Johnson - our only chance to avoid Prez Hillary

[francoHFW]

Trump gained the nomination because "It's not about Conservatism, stupid" - it's about a better and more faithful advocacy for the Common Man.

I don't want or need anyone advocating for me. I want to do my own advocating and be free to do so. You're right that Trump is the result of the GOP losing connection with their base.

"No man is an island"

And the base losing touch with reality, FoxWHATEVERbots. lol

 

[sonic]

Donald has lost. Period. He won't get back to 40 percent in the polls. He had his chance and he failed... because he COULD NOT KEEP HIS BIG FAT TRAP SHUT.

There is one chance to avoid President Hillary - Donald's supporters need to be honest with themselves and realize Gary Johnson is the only hope. Sticking with the sinking ship guarantees Hillary in the Oval Office.

You'll never get Johnson anywhere near Trump's abysmal numbers. Johnson is a good guy but a bit of a space cadet. You'll simply end up embarrassing the GOP even further with an historic landslide.

 

[PredFan]

And Johnson cannot possibly win, so he has already lost too.

Only if people believe the propaganda.

Really? Are you seriously going to stick with that argument?

It's a solid argument. It's certainly valid to question whether there is really enough support among voters for a Libertarian president. There probably isn't. But we're not going to find out if we continue to fall for PR that it's a waste to vote for the best candidate.

I'm a Libertarian myself, and I am not happy that the LP picked Johnson. He seems ready to sell out his principles to get votes. Regardless, what I do is vote LP locally. The only way we are going to get a LP POTUS is if people get experience in living under LP leadership. People have no idea and they have a whole lot of erroneous beliefs about it. Vote LP locally, vote GOP nationally. Eventually the day will come when a LP candidate leads all of the polls.

"The only way we are going to get a LP POTUS is if people get experience in living under LP leadership." - This part makes some sense, if we replace "LP POTUS" with "sustainable libertarian government". But I do think it's possible, and worthwhile, to take advantage of the dismal state of both major parties and slide a libertarian into the Presidency. Especially one who has experience presiding over a mostly non-libertarian government.

I have no delusions that a Johnson administration would have a huge impact. But I'm saying that's a good thing. When the public sees that libertarians aren't libertines bent on anarchy, and that electing a libertarian won't cause major upheaval in their lives, it will go a long way toward getting more local candidates actually elected.

Sure, it just isn't going to happen realistically. Even if you convinced everyone on this board to vote for Johnson, it won't be enough.

 

[PredFan]

And Johnson cannot possibly win, so he has already lost too.

Only if people believe the propaganda.

Really? Are you seriously going to stick with that argument?

It's a solid argument. It's certainly valid to question whether there is really enough support among voters for a Libertarian president. There probably isn't. But we're not going to find out if we continue to fall for PR that it's a waste to vote for the best candidate.

I'm a Libertarian myself, and I am not happy that the LP picked Johnson. He seems ready to sell out his principles to get votes. Regardless, what I do is vote LP locally. The only way we are going to get a LP POTUS is if people get experience in living under LP leadership. People have no idea and they have a whole lot of erroneous beliefs about it. Vote LP locally, vote GOP nationally. Eventually the day will come when a LP candidate leads all of the polls.

Unfortunately, I think many people will only vote in presidential elections. While it seems to make sense to start from the bottom and work up, in US politics I think the opposite may actually be the only way.

If it is the only way, then there is no hope for the LP.

Each ballot has more than just the POTUS race. I find LP politicians running for something on every ballot I get. Start local, and it has a better chance, imo.

 

[PredFan]

Donald has lost. Period. He won't get back to 40 percent in the polls. He had his chance and he failed... because he COULD NOT KEEP HIS BIG FAT TRAP SHUT.

There is one chance to avoid President Hillary - Donald's supporters need to be honest with themselves and realize Gary Johnson is the only hope. Sticking with the sinking ship guarantees Hillary in the Oval Office.

And Johnson cannot possibly win, so he has already lost too.

Only if people believe the propaganda.

Really? Are you seriously going to stick with that argument?

Yep. Both main candidates have more people who dislike them than like them. Johnson is on the ballot in all 50 states.

The biggest obstacle is the notion that a 3rd party candidate cannot win.

Untrue. The biggest obstacles are multiple:

1. A great many people have no idea what the LP stands for.
2. A great many people believe that their party is right and will never even concider voting for ANY other party.
3. believing that Johnson cannot win the presidency is far from hype, it is a fact barring a miracle.

 

[dblack]

Sure, it just isn't going to happen realistically. Even if you convinced everyone on this board to vote for Johnson, it won't be enough.

I think voting based on prognostication is dumb. You're not placing a bet. Your expressing your preference. If you prefer GOP leadership you should vote GOP. If you prefer libertarian values, and the Libertarian candidate, but you vote for someone else, you're subverting democracy.

 

[PredFan]

Sure, it just isn't going to happen realistically. Even if you convinced everyone on this board to vote for Johnson, it won't be enough.

I think voting based on prognostication is dumb. You're not placing a bet. Your expressing your preference. If you prefer GOP leadership you should vote GOP. If you prefer libertarian values, and the Libertarian candidate, but you vote for someone else, you're subverting democracy.

Big words but not a whole lot of logic behind them.

Here are the main issues:

1. Hillary has to be stopped.
2. Johnson cannot win.

To repeat:
I vote LP locally, I believe that that is the only way that the ignorant masses can get to know the LP. They will see how it differs from the other two better than us trying to tell them. Then a successful LP candidate rises through the ranks, followed by others and then you have a chance. Running a constant failing bid for the top seat only makes us look like fringe losers.

 

[dblack]

Sure, it just isn't going to happen realistically. Even if you convinced everyone on this board to vote for Johnson, it won't be enough.

I think voting based on prognostication is dumb. You're not placing a bet. Your expressing your preference. If you prefer GOP leadership you should vote GOP. If you prefer libertarian values, and the Libertarian candidate, but you vote for someone else, you're subverting democracy.

I'll admit that, in some situations, 'lesser-of-two-evils' logic can be compelling. If, for example, I agreed with Clinton 10%, Trump 80% and Johnson 90%, and it was much more likely that Trump could beat Clinton than Johnson, then I might be persuaded to vote for Trump. But as it is, I agree with Clinton 10%, Trump 15% and Johnson 90%. Regardless of who is most likely to win, it's waste for me to vote for Trump even if that means Clinton might get in. The five percent difference isn't worth misrepresenting my views and missing an opportunity to stand up for what I believe in.

 

[Contumacious]

Donald has lost. Period. He won't get back to 40 percent in the polls. He had his chance and he failed... because he COULD NOT KEEP HIS BIG FAT TRAP SHUT.

There is one chance to avoid President Hillary - Donald's supporters need to be honest with themselves and realize Gary Johnson is the only hope. Sticking with the sinking ship guarantees Hillary in the Oval Office.

I like Johnson. But he is not going to be elected.

If Hillary wins she will get to appoint at least 2 SCOTUS "justices"


That will spell disaster for the US.


She will do everthing in her power to start WWIII in order to defend Israel.

 

[PredFan]

Sure, it just isn't going to happen realistically. Even if you convinced everyone on this board to vote for Johnson, it won't be enough.

I think voting based on prognostication is dumb. You're not placing a bet. Your expressing your preference. If you prefer GOP leadership you should vote GOP. If you prefer libertarian values, and the Libertarian candidate, but you vote for someone else, you're subverting democracy.

I'll admit that, in some situations, 'lesser-of-two-evils' logic can be compelling. If, for example, I agreed with Clinton 10%, Trump 80% and Johnson 90%, and it was much more likely that Trump could beat Clinton that Johnson, then I might be persuaded to vote for Trump. But as it is, I agree with Clinton 10%, Trump 15% and Johnson 90%. Regardless of who is most likely to win, it's waste for me to vote for Trump even if that means Clinton might get in. The five percent difference isn't worth misrepresenting my views and missing an opportunity to stand up for what I believe in.

Two things:

1. Unlike the OP, I'm not telling you how to vote.
2. Unlike what the OP states, voting for Johnson won't stop Hillary.

Vote your conscience, always. That is what I'm doing.

 

[dblack]

Donald has lost. Period. He won't get back to 40 percent in the polls. He had his chance and he failed... because he COULD NOT KEEP HIS BIG FAT TRAP SHUT.

There is one chance to avoid President Hillary - Donald's supporters need to be honest with themselves and realize Gary Johnson is the only hope. Sticking with the sinking ship guarantees Hillary in the Oval Office.

I like Johnson. But he is not going to be elected.

If Hillary wins she will get to appoint at least 2 SCOTUS "justices"


That will spell disaster for the US.


She will do everthing in her power to start WWIII in order to defend Israel.

So, out of curiosity, how would your rate candidates? Out of a hundred let's say. Like I said in a previous post, I'd go with (approximately) Clinton: 10, Trump: 15 and Johnson: 90. What would your numbers be?

 

[Montrovant]

Sure, it just isn't going to happen realistically. Even if you convinced everyone on this board to vote for Johnson, it won't be enough.

I think voting based on prognostication is dumb. You're not placing a bet. Your expressing your preference. If you prefer GOP leadership you should vote GOP. If you prefer libertarian values, and the Libertarian candidate, but you vote for someone else, you're subverting democracy.

Big words but not a whole lot of logic behind them.

Here are the main issues:

1. Hillary has to be stopped.
2. Johnson cannot win.

To repeat:
I vote LP locally, I believe that that is the only way that the ignorant masses can get to know the LP. They will see how it differs from the other two better than us trying to tell them. Then a successful LP candidate rises through the ranks, followed by others and then you have a chance. Running a constant failing bid for the top seat only makes us look like fringe losers.

Johnson can win, it's just damned unlikely.

 

[Contumacious]

Donald has lost. Period. He won't get back to 40 percent in the polls. He had his chance and he failed... because he COULD NOT KEEP HIS BIG FAT TRAP SHUT.

There is one chance to avoid President Hillary - Donald's supporters need to be honest with themselves and realize Gary Johnson is the only hope. Sticking with the sinking ship guarantees Hillary in the Oval Office.

I like Johnson. But he is not going to be elected.

If Hillary wins she will get to appoint at least 2 SCOTUS "justices"


That will spell disaster for the US.


She will do everthing in her power to start WWIII in order to defend Israel.

So, out of curiosity, how would your rate candidates? Out of a hundred let's say. Like I said in a previous post, I'd go with (approximately) Clinton: 10, Trump: 15 and Johnson: 90. What would your numbers be?

Gary Johnson is a fraud when it comes to advocating true libertarianism. He must be used as a foil by true radical freedom lovers. He must be intellectually attacked mercilessly for his misleading characterization of libertarianism and exposed for the statist hugger that he is.

Robert Wenzel

 

[Boss]

So, out of curiosity, how would your rate candidates? Out of a hundred let's say. Like I said in a previous post, I'd go with (approximately) Clinton: 10, Trump: 15 and Johnson: 90. What would your numbers be?

Hillary 0 - Trump 20 - Johnson 20

Johnson doesn't support some of the things I agree with Trump on.
Trump doesn't support some of the things I agree with Johnson on.

Then... There is the fact that Johnson will not win the election. I mean.... flying monkeys will emerge from the skies and your house will land on a wicked witch before that happens.

 

[dblack]

So, out of curiosity, how would your rate candidates? Out of a hundred let's say. Like I said in a previous post, I'd go with (approximately) Clinton: 10, Trump: 15 and Johnson: 90. What would your numbers be?

Hillary 0 - Trump 20 - Johnson 20

Johnson doesn't support some of the things I agree with Trump on.
Trump doesn't support some of the things I agree with Johnson on.

Then... There is the fact that Johnson will not win the election. I mean.... flying monkeys will emerge from the skies and your house will land on a wicked witch before that happens.

Yeah, if those were my numbers, I'd vote Trump too, I guess. Or write in someone else.

 

[Boss]

Johnson can win, it's just damned unlikely.

Only out of respect for quantum physics will I agree with this.

You know... like it's possible we're one of a billion trillion universes where one exists in which Johnson wins?

I think he gets 10% or less on election night. I will be shocked if he hits 12%.

The Libertarian Party has a fraction of the funding and resources the Big Two have. We ARE a two party system. We've always been. The history of third parties is that of a spoiler. Rare have been the times when a third party rose to overtake one of the Big Two. The last time it happened, Carnegie could have funded the entire presidential campaign on his lunch budget.

 

[dblack]

Johnson can win, it's just damned unlikely.

Only out of respect for quantum physics will I agree with this.

You know... like it's possible we're one of a billion trillion universes where one exists in which Johnson wins?

I think he gets 10% or less on election night. I will be shocked if he hits 12%.

In large part it depends on what happens with the Trump trainwreck. If he keeps floundering, and his numbers keep dropping, more and more Republicans will turn to Johnson.

 

[Boss]

Johnson can win, it's just damned unlikely.

Only out of respect for quantum physics will I agree with this.

You know... like it's possible we're one of a billion trillion universes where one exists in which Johnson wins?

I think he gets 10% or less on election night. I will be shocked if he hits 12%.

In large part it depends on what happens with the Trump trainwreck. If he keeps floundering, and his numbers keep dropping, more and more Republicans will turn to Johnson.

Depends on how they feel about President Hillary Clinton.

 

[dblack]

Johnson can win, it's just damned unlikely.

Only out of respect for quantum physics will I agree with this.

You know... like it's possible we're one of a billion trillion universes where one exists in which Johnson wins?

I think he gets 10% or less on election night. I will be shocked if he hits 12%.

In large part it depends on what happens with the Trump trainwreck. If he keeps floundering, and his numbers keep dropping, more and more Republicans will turn to Johnson.

Depends on how they feel about President Hillary Clinton.

Right. Well, I'm taking them at their word, and most of them say that stopping Hillary is the only reason they're voting Trump. If he doesn't look like he can do that, I think many will go for Johnson. I also think that, if Trump isn't a threat, some of the Democrats and Bernie supporters will come on board.

You're probably right, but I'm not that interested in predicting the future.

 

[PredFan]

Even if a significant portion of Trump supporters turn to Johnson, it won't be enough. There are many Trump supporters who will stick with him no matter what.