Did Jesus Wrestle With The Flesh and Spirit?

[ding]

It seems unnecessarily hard to believe that the Old Testament God and the New Testament God are the same.
The two descriptions are 100% complete opposites in every way. They don't even slightly resemble each other.

If you are readying a passage and conclude that God condones violence or slavery or evil, then you are reading it wrong.

 

[ding]

It seems unnecessarily hard to believe that the Old Testament God and the New Testament God are the same.
The two descriptions are 100% complete opposites in every way. They don't even slightly resemble each other.

But let's say you can't reconcile the messages of the OT and NT and conclude there is only one creator, a much simpler conclusion for your conundrum is to believe in no God at all rather than two Gods; that it's all mythology and parables made up by men.

 

[Road Runner]

If you are readying a passage and conclude that God condones violence or slavery or evil, then you are reading it wrong.

I just posted a topic a little bit ago about how God doesn't like talking to brick walls. Some of these people don't understand His words because they don't even want to take the time to try and understand it and then it becomes pointless trying to speak to them. (Not saying that's the person you were quoting I'm just saying that comes straight from the horse's mouth Himself. Or that's what He told me anyways.)

 

[iamwhatiseem]

If you are readying a passage and conclude that God condones violence or slavery or evil, then you are reading it wrong.

Not what I am referring to.
The God of the Old Testament presented mankind with an impossibility - be a perfect being, without a single fault, or I will shun you... even though... I created you with a plethora of weaknesses and faults inherent at birth - good luck!
The God of the New Testament - you are awesome! So much so I will send down my only son to sacrifice his life - well at least - be in agony for awhile - so you have a way to redeem yourself from my mistakes.
No need to be perfect anymore. Oh - man I love you guys!

 

[ding]

Not what I am referring to.
The God of the Old Testament presented mankind with an impossibility - be a perfect being, without a single fault, or I will shun you... even though... I created you with a plethora of weaknesses and faults inherent at birth - good luck!
The God of the New Testament - you are awesome! So much so I will send down my only son to sacrifice his life - well at least - be in agony for awhile - so you have a way to redeem yourself from my mistakes.
No need to be perfect anymore. Oh - man I love you guys!

See... I don't believe God did present mankind with an expectation that they would be a perfect being. At a minimum I doubt you and I would agree on what being perfect means for a material being.

I don't agree that God ever said he would shun us if we weren't without fault.

 

[iamwhatiseem]

See... I don't believe God did present mankind with an expectation that they would be a perfect being. At a minimum I doubt you and I would agree on what being perfect means for a material being.

I don't agree that God ever said he would shun us if we weren't without fault.

Uh ok...

 

[ding]

Uh ok...

Exactly. I believe you have misread the Bible if you have concluded there must be two Gods; a good God of the spiritual world (NT) and an evil God of the material world (OT). A much simpler belief for you to defend is that there are no Gods at all and that everything you have based your beliefs upon (the OT and NT) are all made up. Of course I don't think that is a reasonable belief either but it would be easier to argue than manufacturing two Gods. There's literally zero basis in either of the testaments to argue for the existence of two Gods.

 

[ding]

I just posted a topic a little bit ago about how God doesn't like talking to brick walls. Some of these people don't understand His words because they don't even want to take the time to try and understand it and then it becomes pointless trying to speak to them. (Not saying that's the person you were quoting I'm just saying that comes straight from the horse's mouth Himself. Or that's what He told me anyways.)

It's not as much that they believe what they believe is true as it is that they don't believe they could ever be wrong. So they are unwilling to consider new information.

 

[iamwhatiseem]

Exactly. I believe you have misread the Bible if you have concluded there must be two Gods; a good God of the spiritual world (NT) and an evil God of the material world (OT). A much simpler belief for you to defend is that there are no Gods at all and that everything you have based your beliefs upon (the OT and NT) are all made up. Of course I don't think that is a reasonable belief either but it would be easier to argue than manufacturing two Gods. There's literally zero basis in either of the testaments to argue for the existence of two Gods.

FFS dude.. he demanded Abraham to kill his son as a sacrifice to prove his loyalty. Only at the last second stopping him saying "cool! you are loyal... I love you!"

 

[ding]

FFS dude.. he demanded Abraham to kill his son as a sacrifice to prove his loyalty. Only at the last second stopping him saying "cool! you are loyal... I love you!"

Again... you are misinterpreting the passage. What is it that you believe the author of the passage was intending to convey exactly?

 

[iamwhatiseem]

Again... you are misinterpreting the passage. What is it that you believe the author of the passage was intending to convey exactly?

Uh huh... how am I misinterpreting...
Now it came about after these things, that God tested Abraham, and said to him, “Abraham!” And he said, “Here I am.” 2 He said, “Take now your son, your only son, whom you love, Isaac, and go to the land of Moriah, and offer him there as a burnt offering on one of the mountains of which I will tell you.” 3 So Abraham rose early in the morning and saddled his donkey, and took two of his young men with him and Isaac his son; and he split wood for the burnt offering, and arose and went to the place of which God had told him. 4 On the third day Abraham raised his eyes and saw the place from a distance. 5 Abraham said to his young men, “Stay here with the donkey, and I and the lad will go over there; and we will worship and return to you.” 6 Abraham took the wood of the burnt offering and laid it on Isaac his son, and he took in his hand the fire and the knife. So the two of them walked on together. 7 Isaac spoke to Abraham his father and said, “My father!” And he said, “Here I am, my son.” And he said, “Behold, the fire and the wood, but where is the lamb for the burnt offering?” 8 Abraham said, “God will provide for Himself the lamb for the burnt offering, my son.” So the two of them walked on together.


9 Then they came to the place of which God had told him; and Abraham built the altar there and arranged the wood, and bound his son Isaac and laid him on the altar, on top of the wood. 10 Abraham stretched out his hand and took the knife to slay his son. 11 But the angel of the Lord called to him from heaven and said, “Abraham, Abraham!” And he said, “Here I am.” 12 He said, “Do not stretch out your hand against the lad, and do nothing to him; for now I know that you fear God, since you have not withheld your son, your only son, from Me.”

 

[iamwhatiseem]

And yes I am aware of the interpretations that say "oh - he didn't really mean it" - it's just a story.
Well.... isn't that convenient

 

[ding]

Uh huh... how am I misinterpreting...
Now it came about after these things, that God tested Abraham, and said to him, “Abraham!” And he said, “Here I am.” 2 He said, “Take now your son, your only son, whom you love, Isaac, and go to the land of Moriah, and offer him there as a burnt offering on one of the mountains of which I will tell you.” 3 So Abraham rose early in the morning and saddled his donkey, and took two of his young men with him and Isaac his son; and he split wood for the burnt offering, and arose and went to the place of which God had told him. 4 On the third day Abraham raised his eyes and saw the place from a distance. 5 Abraham said to his young men, “Stay here with the donkey, and I and the lad will go over there; and we will worship and return to you.” 6 Abraham took the wood of the burnt offering and laid it on Isaac his son, and he took in his hand the fire and the knife. So the two of them walked on together. 7 Isaac spoke to Abraham his father and said, “My father!” And he said, “Here I am, my son.” And he said, “Behold, the fire and the wood, but where is the lamb for the burnt offering?” 8 Abraham said, “God will provide for Himself the lamb for the burnt offering, my son.” So the two of them walked on together.


9 Then they came to the place of which God had told him; and Abraham built the altar there and arranged the wood, and bound his son Isaac and laid him on the altar, on top of the wood. 10 Abraham stretched out his hand and took the knife to slay his son. 11 But the angel of the Lord called to him from heaven and said, “Abraham, Abraham!” And he said, “Here I am.” 12 He said, “Do not stretch out your hand against the lad, and do nothing to him; for now I know that you fear God, since you have not withheld your son, your only son, from Me.”

Because you haven't said what you believe the author intended to convey. Are you arguing the author intended to convey God is evil? If so, how do you reconcile the staggering and overwhelming evidence that they believed God is good, caring, loving and compassionate? Have you ever read the songs and poems they wrote about God? Are any of those songs and poems describing an evil and hateful God?

Again... you would have an easier time arguing that there is no God at all.

 

[ding]

Gnostic theology is effectively polytheism revisited.

 

[Road Runner]

It's not as much that they believe what they believe is true as it is that they don't believe they could ever be wrong. So they are unwilling to consider new information.

If everything we knew was right then why did Jesus come to earth in the first place besides sacrificing Himself on the cross for our sins?

 

[ding]

And yes I am aware of the interpretations that say "oh - he didn't really mean it" - it's just a story.
Well.... isn't that convenient

That's not my interpretation.

 

[ding]

If everything we knew was right then why did Jesus come to earth in the first place besides sacrificing Himself on the cross for our sins?

It is widely believed by people who have put considerably more time, effort and thought into questions like this than I have, that God's ways are inscrutable and unsearchable. But if I were to render a guess I would say that God put himself on trial in an incredible display of humor and irony as a rebuttal to our putting God on trial in our everyday lives.

A more biblical answer to the question why did Jesus come to earth in the first place would be from Jesus Himself when he said, "I was born into this world to testify to the truth."

 

[ding]

When He was tempted in the desert by Satan? Even though He never actually sinned though.

Yes, I believe that Jesus did wrestle with the flesh and spirit. He was fully human and fully God. The fully human Jesus did wrestle with the flesh and spirit. Otherwise his sacrifice would have been meaningless.

 

[Road Runner]

Yes, I believe that Jesus did wrestle with the flesh and spirit. He was fully human and fully God. The fully human Jesus did wrestle with the flesh and spirit. Otherwise his sacrifice would have been meaningless.

Yeah, I was just curious because we all have that constant battle of trying to do right and a lot of the time failing. Jesus never failed, but I just wondered because He was able to be tempted that if He still went through the exact same thing we go through, and as you said,.. even though He had no desire to sin, He was also human so yeah,.. I'm guessing He probably did go through it too.

 

[The Sage of Main Street]

When He was tempted in the desert by Satan? Even though He never actually sinned though.

Monica Belucci

No, he "wrestled" with Mary Magdalene instead.