Zone1 Did you exist before you were born into this life?

[onefour1]

It is interesting that the Apostles, when they saw a blind man, would ask Jesus, "Who did sin? This man or his parents that he was born blind?" The Apostles understanding was that a person could sin before he was born into this world. If we never existed before coming to this earth, this would have been a perfect time for Jesus to teach that the man could not have sinned since he did not exist. But Jesus taught them no such thing. Jesus told them that neither this man nor his parents sinned that he was born blind but that the works of God should be made manifest in him.

John 9:1-3
1 And as Jesus passed by, he saw a man which was blind from his birth.
2 And his disciples asked him, saying, Master, who did sin, this man, or his parents, that he was born blind?
3 Jesus answered, Neither hath this man sinned, nor his parents: but that the works of God should be made manifest in him.

Jesus then goes on to heal the blind man. Jesus taught that the blind man did not sin and that that was not the reason he was born blind. You would think that he would tell his disciples that the man never existed before being born but he didn't he simply told them that the man did not sin to be born blind. Evidently the Apostles believed that a person could sin before being born. Jesus never corrected them in this thought but simply told them that the man did not sin. So the belief that they existed before being born was had among the Apostles.

 

[ding]

You would think that he would tell his disciples that the man never existed before being born but he didn't he simply told them that the man did not sin to be born blind.

That ought to tell you they weren't asking that question.

 

[onefour1]

That ought to tell you they weren't asking that question.

The question they were asking was who sinned that the man was born blind, the man or his parents? The assumption the Apostles were making was that the man could have sinned to cause himself to be born blind! For that to happen, the man would need to exist before being born. Premortal existence was believed by the Apostles and often taught per all the verses I have listed.

 

[buttercup]

Here's your first word "game";
The Creator is said to be eternal = no beginning nor an end.
One can't get something from nothing, therefore the Creator created this cosmos/universe from It's own substance.
Hence the physical realm is eternal, and so would be the spiritual.
Therefore you would have an existence prior to this physical life you currently lead.

Please back yourself up scripturally if you are claiming the physical realm is eternal and human beings existed before we existed.

God is eternal. In other words God has no beginning and no end. But human beings and the world had a beginning. We have immortal souls, yes. But unlike God we have a beginning.

This is the standard Christian position. As you can see here:

What does the Bible say about the pre-existence of souls? | GotQuestions.org

What does the Bible say about the pre-existence of souls? Do human souls exist before a person is born into this world?

www.gotquestions.org

 

[onefour1]

Another good example from scripture is the teaching of the war in heaven before Lucifer and his minions were cast out of heaven into the earth and became Satan and his demons. In Revelation 12 we read the following:

Revelation 12:7-11
7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

When we analyze this verse we understand that this war in heaven occurred before Satan and his minions were cast out of heaven into the earth. Satan was on the earth during the days of Adam and Eve. Thus this war in heaven occurred before Adam and Eve were placed upon the earth and were tempted by the devil. Those who were on the side of God and his Christ were Michael and his angels. There was a host of beings in heaven who fought against Lucifer and his minions in this war in heaven. Satan and his minions were eventually cast out of heaven into the earth. But what became of Michael and all the righteous who sided against Satan and his minions? Verse 11 tells us that they had to overcome Satan by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimonies and that they loved not their lives unto the death. What was that? They loved not their lives unto the death? This means that they became subject unto death!! They became mortal on this earth and had to overcome Satan by the blood of the Lamb and by their testimonies! Those who fought on the side of God and his Christ have come to this earth and received mortal bodies and are subject to death. They need the blood of the Lamb to overcome Satan and his minions. It was we mortals on this earth that fought against Lucifer and his minions in the war in heaven and now we have come down and taken upon us mortality and need the blood of the Lamb to overcome Satan. We preexisted this life and were on the side of God and his Christ in the war in heaven. Satan and his minions were denied the opportunity of ever receiving bodies of flesh and bone but are to remain as spirits forever and ever. As mortals we are subject to death and need the blood of the Lamb to overcome Satan and his minions. So this is another example of how we have evidence in scripture that we existed prior to coming to this earth as mortals.

 

[CrusaderFrank]

Many times

Met up with some of my favorite peeps too

 

[dblack]

So you prefer living in a pre- determined Universe with no free choice .
Very Sheeepletish .

That's such an interesting topic. What exactly do you mean by "free choice"? Free from causation? Or merely free from coercion?

 

[sparky]

That's such an interesting topic. What exactly do you mean by "free choice"? Free from causation? Or merely free from coercion?

i'll vote coercion DB

~S~

 

[onefour1]

So what were we before we were born? The Bible has answered this question. The Bible teaches that we are the literal offspring of God. As the literal offspring, we are his children.

Acts 17:28-29
28 For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.
29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man’s device.

God the Father is the literal father of our spirits.

Hebrews 12:9-10
9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?
10 For they verily for a few days chastened us after their own pleasure; but he for our profit, that we might be partakers of his holiness.

Psalms 82:6
6 I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.

As literal offspring of God, God considers us as gods.

John 10:30-36
30 I and my Father are one.
31 Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him.
32 Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me?
33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.
34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?
35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;
36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?

God our Eternal Father in Heaven is the literal Father of our spirits. We are his offspring. We existed prior to being born in this mortal life and existed as the spirit sons and daughter of God. Jesus Christ was the firstborn of all the children of God the Father and became a member of the Godhead from the beginning.

 

[ding]

The question they were asking was who sinned that the man was born blind, the man or his parents? The assumption the Apostles were making was that the man could have sinned to cause himself to be born blind! For that to happen, the man would need to exist before being born. Premortal existence was believed by the Apostles and often taught per all the verses I have listed.

I think you are reading way too much into it.

 

[ding]

So what were we before we were born? The Bible has answered this question. The Bible teaches that we are the literal offspring of God. As the literal offspring, we are his children.

Acts 17:28-29
28 For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.
29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man’s device.

God the Father is the literal father of our spirits.

Hebrews 12:9-10
9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?
10 For they verily for a few days chastened us after their own pleasure; but he for our profit, that we might be partakers of his holiness.

Psalms 82:6
6 I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.

As literal offspring of God, God considers us as gods.

John 10:30-36
30 I and my Father are one.
31 Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him.
32 Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me?
33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.
34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?
35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;
36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?

God our Eternal Father in Heaven is the literal Father of our spirits. We are his offspring. We existed prior to being born in this mortal life and existed as the spirit sons and daughter of God. Jesus Christ was the firstborn of all the children of God the Father and became a member of the Godhead from the beginning.

I think you are reading way too much into this too.

 

[sparky]

So what were we before we were born?

what are we after we leave?

how is our time here relevant?

are we merely a captive of linear time?

is death a human construct?

is our existence per-ordained?

~S~

 

[ding]

what are we after we leave?

how is our time here relevant?

are we merely a captive of linear time?

is death a human construct?

is our existence per-ordained?

~S~

Do the answers to those questions affect your existence in the here and now?

 

[sparky]

Do the answers to those questions affect your existence in the here and now?

perhaps validate would be more apropos ding

~S~

 

[ding]

perhaps validate would be more apropos ding

~S~

Is that really what you are looking for? Validation?

Because I think what you struggle with is meaning.

 

[onefour1]

what are we after we leave?

According to scripture, we will all be resurrected and become immortal beings to never die again. We will be resurrected into immortal bodies of flesh and bone just as Jesus was resurrected.

how is our time here relevant?

One might ask, why didn't God just make us perfect and avoid all the pain, suffering, and death in this fallen world. From my personal studies of latter-day revelation in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, I have come to believe that the intelligence of mankind and all living things has always existed. God could not create that which is self-existing. So if our intelligences were in an imperfect state of being, maybe the only way for God to have our intelligence progress is to give them a mortal experience to help them learn good and evil and help them learn to choose good in and of themselves. In this way a self-existing intelligence can learn to be a good being in and of himself by choosing good over evil of their own free will and choice. I also believe that being attached to element gives a greater joy. Thus receiving bodies made of the elements allows us to touch and feel and maybe understand our physical environment to a greater degree. I believe God the Father and Jesus have immortal bodies and that they want this for all of us.

Doctrine and Covenants 93:29
29 Man was also in the beginning with God. Intelligence, or the light of truth, was not created or made, neither indeed can be.

Doctrine and Covenants 93:33-34
33 For man is spirit. The elements are eternal, and spirit and element, inseparably connected, receive a fulness of joy;
34 And when separated, man cannot receive a fulness of joy.

are we merely a captive of linear time?

My thoughts are that "time" has a beginning and end. When we become immortal, we will live for all eternity and there will be no end. If we consider that we were intelligences and have always existed, then I would say that we go through certain beginnings and endings but in reality I believe we have always existed and are not subject to time.

is death a human construct?

Do you mean, did humans invent death? I think God has allowed us to exist in a fallen world to experience good and evil which also includes death. Ultimately we will become immortal and never again be subject unto death. Death is just the removal of life from our bodies. Our spirits go on until we are resurrected and become immortal. It is an experience that we probably gain a great deal of understanding from.

is our existence per-ordained?

I would say that we have always existed as intelligences but God has ordained that we experience this mortal experience and He has ordained that we all resurrected to immortality. So even though we have always existed as an intelligence, we do go through differing states in our eternal existence that helps us to progress and become more like God.

~S~

 

[Anathema]

I do believe that we all existed before we got here, but not in the same sense as the Bible suggests. I believe all the Souls in existence were created atvthevmomrntbtge Universe came into existence.

Since then those Souks have been repeatedly going through human lives to determine whether they can live properly or not.

At the end of each life the Soul is judged. Those which prove they can live properly go to a better place.l for eternity. Those deemed to be improper and unredeemable are sent to a place of suffering for eternity. Those in the middle are re-educated and sent back to try again.

The world will end when the last Soul has been sorted and there are no more to be judged.

 

[sparky]

According to scripture, we will all be resurrected and become immortal beings to never die again. We will be resurrected into immortal bodies of flesh and bone just as Jesus was resurrected.

One might ask, why didn't God just make us perfect and avoid all the pain, suffering, and death in this fallen world. From my personal studies of latter-day revelation in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, I have come to believe that the intelligence of mankind and all living things has always existed. God could not create that which is self-existing. So if our intelligences were in an imperfect state of being, maybe the only way for God to have our intelligence progress is to give them a mortal experience to help them learn good and evil and help them learn to choose good in and of themselves. In this way a self-existing intelligence can learn to be a good being in and of himself by choosing good over evil of their own free will and choice. I also believe that being attached to element gives a greater joy. Thus receiving bodies made of the elements allows us to touch and feel and maybe understand our physical environment to a greater degree. I believe God the Father and Jesus have immortal bodies and that they want this for all of us.

Doctrine and Covenants 93:29
29 Man was also in the beginning with God. Intelligence, or the light of truth, was not created or made, neither indeed can be.

Doctrine and Covenants 93:33-34
33 For man is spirit. The elements are eternal, and spirit and element, inseparably connected, receive a fulness of joy;
34 And when separated, man cannot receive a fulness of joy.


My thoughts are that "time" has a beginning and end. When we become immortal, we will live for all eternity and there will be no end. If we consider that we were intelligences and have always existed, then I would say that we go through certain beginnings and endings but in reality I believe we have always existed and are not subject to time.

Do you mean, did humans invent death? I think God has allowed us to exist in a fallen world to experience good and evil which also includes death. Ultimately we will become immortal and never again be subject unto death. Death is just the removal of life from our bodies. Our spirits go on until we are resurrected and become immortal. It is an experience that we probably gain a great deal of understanding from.

I would say that we have always existed as intelligences but God has ordained that we experience this mortal experience and He has ordained that we all resurrected to immortality. So even though we have always existed as an intelligence, we do go through differing states in our eternal existence that helps us to progress and become more like God.

a most interesting rebuttal 1/4

you're on top of your game tonight

and i would love to have the opportunity to share a brew with you, because i agree with much of what you're saying here, just at odds with the heiracry selling it

peace out,,,,,

~S~

 

[Stryder50]

Please back yourself up scripturally if you are claiming the physical realm is eternal and human beings existed before we existed.

God is eternal. In other words God has no beginning and no end. But human beings and the world had a beginning. We have immortal souls, yes. But unlike God we have a beginning.

This is the standard Christian position. As you can see here:

What does the Bible say about the pre-existence of souls? | GotQuestions.org

What does the Bible say about the pre-existence of souls? Do human souls exist before a person is born into this world?

www.gotquestions.org

You are talking to someone born and raised in the Catholic Church, which predates all the Protestant versions of "Christianity".

If you really thought through what I presented in the post you quoted~replied to; you would realize that all "Scripture" is also a creation~fabrication of those older and more knowledgeable beings that "created" we humans.

There is a Catch 22 of sorts here where those who made the current (most recent ) version of us (physical humans), are also the ones who gave us the 'religious scriptures' "THEY" wrote and seek to indoctrinate us with. ~ ???

~ "Satanic Verses"(Scriptures) anyone ???

Try applying logic and reason rather than be spoon feed some other "Being's" rationalized indoctrination~=~pravda.

 

[Stryder50]

According to scripture, we will all be resurrected and become immortal beings to never die again. We will be resurrected into immortal bodies of flesh and bone just as Jesus was resurrected.

One might ask, why didn't God just make us perfect and avoid all the pain, suffering, and death in this fallen world. From my personal studies of latter-day revelation in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, I have come to believe that the intelligence of mankind and all living things has always existed. God could not create that which is self-existing. So if our intelligences were in an imperfect state of being, maybe the only way for God to have our intelligence progress is to give them a mortal experience to help them learn good and evil and help them learn to choose good in and of themselves. In this way a self-existing intelligence can learn to be a good being in and of himself by choosing good over evil of their own free will and choice. I also believe that being attached to element gives a greater joy. Thus receiving bodies made of the elements allows us to touch and feel and maybe understand our physical environment to a greater degree. I believe God the Father and Jesus have immortal bodies and that they want this for all of us.

Doctrine and Covenants 93:29
29 Man was also in the beginning with God. Intelligence, or the light of truth, was not created or made, neither indeed can be.

Doctrine and Covenants 93:33-34
33 For man is spirit. The elements are eternal, and spirit and element, inseparably connected, receive a fulness of joy;
34 And when separated, man cannot receive a fulness of joy.


My thoughts are that "time" has a beginning and end. When we become immortal, we will live for all eternity and there will be no end. If we consider that we were intelligences and have always existed, then I would say that we go through certain beginnings and endings but in reality I believe we have always existed and are not subject to time.

Do you mean, did humans invent death? I think God has allowed us to exist in a fallen world to experience good and evil which also includes death. Ultimately we will become immortal and never again be subject unto death. Death is just the removal of life from our bodies. Our spirits go on until we are resurrected and become immortal. It is an experience that we probably gain a great deal of understanding from.

I would say that we have always existed as intelligences but God has ordained that we experience this mortal experience and He has ordained that we all resurrected to immortality. So even though we have always existed as an intelligence, we do go through differing states in our eternal existence that helps us to progress and become more like God.

We already have immortal spiritual bodies, making those physical ones un-needed in some regards.

Consider the physical bodies as re-starts for a progressive game that we replay each lifetime until we get it "Right", ~ win at it. Then move on and up to the next level. ~ Restart at a higher level and different game setting than what we just mastered and left, ... moving on and up.