Delusions of Israelis and Palestinians Are Destroying the Peace Process

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An interesting analysis of the current state of non-peace. It's disturbing, because in order to overcome the status quo, deep changes in national psyche need to be looked at on both sides. It offers a very different analysis than what I usually see.

Delusions of Israelis and Palestinians Are Destroying the Peace Process

......There are certain psychological concepts that are relevant to understanding the Israeli-Palestinian conflict; the concept of illusion is an essential one. In The Future of an Illusion, Freud offers the following definition: “…we call a belief an illusion when a wish-fulfillment is a prominent factor in its motivation, and in doing so we disregard its relations to reality, just as the illusion itself sets no store by verification.”


What is characteristic of illusions is that: 1) they are derived from deep human wishes, and 2) the belief is held (or would be held) in the absence of any compelling evidence, or good rational grounds, on its behalf.


It is impossible to deny that both Israelis and Palestinians are in the grip of very powerful illusions that only serve to prolong the conflict and prevent any mutual understanding. In particular, the belief shared by many Israelis that they have a biblical right to the land (including Judea and Samaria) and that God gave it to the Jews in perpetuity is undoubtedly an illusion of yesterday.


This belief is not affirmed because there is real evidence that God deemed it to be (although two Jewish kingdoms did exist — the first in the tenth century BCE and the second beginning in 539 BCE — on the same land), but because it satisfies a deep-seated psychological need for a God-given Jewish homeland.


The belief that by expanding the settlements Israel will augment its national security and maintain its hold on the entire land is an illusion of tomorrow, which generally ignores the presence of Muslims in the same land for more than 1,300 years.


It is important to note how these illusions sustain and reinforce one another, and constitute a psychological barrier that is much more impervious to critical reflection. Israel’s illusions have served to create the logic for occupation.


The Palestinians, for their part, are not without their own illusions. They also believe that God has reserved the land for them, and appeal to the fact that they had inhabited the land for centuries. From their perspective, the presence of the al-Aqsa Mosque, which was built in 705 AD in Jerusalem, attests to their historical and religious affinity to the Holy City.


They also cling to the idea that they will someday return to the land of their forbears, as they have and continue to insist on the right of return of the Palestinian refugees, even though this has become a virtual impossibility.


The Palestinians hold fast to their illusions of yesterday and tomorrow just as blindly and desperately as the Israelis, which leads to resistance to and fear of change. As such, unless both sides change course and accept each other’s affinity to the same land, specifically because it is religiously-based, the situation is bound to lead to a catastrophe.


This has contributed to making the Israeli-Palestinian conflict both chronic and intractable, as the various illusions are continuously and consciously nurtured by daily hostile and often violent encounters between the two sides.


In seeking to bridge concepts that could link between the domains of psychology and politics in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, it could be proposed that a collective mutual resistance to change (both conscious and deliberate, and inner unconscious) protects a vulnerable identity.


Compared, for example, to the stable and mature political identities of the American, British, and French nations, the political identities of both the Israeli and Palestinian peoples are, in a way, in their adolescence.


Identities in this setting are more vulnerable, and the protagonists are naturally more defensive and resistant to change. By its very nature, the players must find it difficult (if not impossible) to articulate this publicly, as to do so is to admit to this vulnerability.


The concept of psychological resistance to change may well affect the political setting in general and the Israeli-Palestinian conflict in particular; it is closely connected to perceptions at many levels and provides protection for vulnerable identity formation.


It is this mindset, strengthened by historical experiences, which transcends the more than seven decades since the Israeli-Palestinian conflict began. Individuals and groups, Israelis and Palestinians alike, have and continue to interpret the nature of the discord between them as “you versus me” in a prejudiced and selective way.


In turn, this has stifled any new information and enabled the continuing resistance to change, which could shed new light on the nature and substance of the conflict and help advance the peace process.


The concept of unconscious resistance to change in this setting links well to the view of perceptions driving the polarization in the conflict. Historical experience, which formulates perceptions, serves among other things to enhance the sense of identity of “who we really are,” a formative collective assumption that sits at the bedrock of both key players and drives functional and dysfunctional behavior.


In principle, such a mindset prevents either side from entertaining new ideas that might lead to compromises for a peaceful solution. The paradox here is that majorities on both sides do want and seek peace, knowing full well that this would require significant concessions, but are unable to reconcile the required concessions with imbedded perceptions that have precluded these compromises as a result of resistance to and fear of change.


Therefore, any framework for peace must include provisions that would dramatically increase the odds in favor of a solution. First, both sides need to commit to reaching an agreement based on a two-state solution out of the conviction that change, which translates to coexistence, is inevitable. Therefore, they ought to adjust to each other’s requirements, which of necessity requires them to make significant concessions.


Second, to facilitate that, they must undertake reconciliatory people-to-people social, economic, cultural, and security interactions to mitigate their resistance to change, which must begin, at a minimum, one year before the negotiations commence to create the psychological and political atmosphere to cultivate the trust necessary for substantive and successful peace negotiations...


The resumption of peace talks will go nowhere unless Israelis and Palestinians change their prejudiced perception and resistance to and fear of change, and finally come to the realization that their fate is intertwined and neither can live in peace and security without the other.
 
The article begins with a false prerogative that both sides agree there must be a two state solution.

I don't see that at all. I see a four state solution. We already have a two state solution and Israel has been forced by the failed Oslo accord to give up Gaza, which it did, 3 state solution. Now the Arab Muslims want a fourth state solution.

So how are we agreeing to a two state solution ? Are the Arab Muslims willing to give up gaza and the west bank and return the land to the Israeli's ?

The article attempts to chalk up facts, to illusions. The fact is that the last legally binding instrument allocated the entirety of the are west of the Jordan to Israel. Thats not an illusion, that a fact. The next fact is that Israel won against the Arab Leagues declaration of war, in an era where land could be gained through conquest, and particularly a defensive conquest. Thats also a simple fact. The Arab led UN didn't outlaw land acquired by conquest until it failed in its attempts to win land by conquest.

Funny how that works now isn't it. Or is someone going to try and foist that off to an illusion as well. ;--)
 
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I don't think Israel's opposition to a fully independent Palestine is because of ideological reasons anymore. Netanyahu has said in Hebrew (which I understand) that he doesn't want an extremist, Iran-backed, Islamist state in Israel's heartland. Considering the failed Arab Spring and what has happened in Syria and Iraq, who can blame him?
 
unless Israelis and Palestinians change their prejudiced perception and resistance to and fear of change, and finally come to the realization that their fate is intertwined and neither can live in peace and security without the other.

To some extent this is true. The solution is one state with Jewish and Muslim and Christian social equality, and political equal rights guaranteed by a written constitution in a secular state. If it works in America, it can work in the Zionist paradise.
 
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The article begins with a false prerogative that both sides agree there must be a two state solution.

I don't see that at all. I see a four state solution. We already have a two state solution and Israel has been forced by the failed Oslo accord to give up Gaza, which it did, 3 state solution. Now the Arab Muslims want a fourth state solution.

So how are we agreeing to a two state solution ? Are the Arab Muslims willing to give up gaza and the west bank and return the land to the Israeli's ?

The article attempts to chalk up facts, to illusions. The fact is that the last legally binding instrument allocated the entirety of the are west of the Jordan to Israel. Thats not an illusion, that a fact. The next fact is that Israel won against the Arab Leagues declaration of war, in an era where land could be gained through conquest, and particularly a defensive conquest. Thats also a simple fact. The Arab led UN didn't outlaw land acquired by conquest until it failed in its attempts to win land by conquest.

Funny how that works now isn't it. Or is someone going to try and foist that off to an illusion as well. ;--)


You're part of the miniscule minority that believes in the illusion of a Jordan/Israel 2 state solution ;)
 
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I don't think Israel's opposition to a fully independent Palestine is because of ideological reasons anymore. Netanyahu has said in Hebrew (which I understand) that he doesn't want an extremist, Iran-backed, Islamist state in Israel's heartland. Considering the failed Arab Spring and what has happened in Syria and Iraq, who can blame him?


Netanyahu has stated both through inaction, settlement construction, and his own words that he has never truly supported a two-state solution. I also think ideology forms a strong part of it. There's a very strong belief in the right of Jews to reclaim all of ancient Israel those proponants carry a lot of political leverage. While there is rationality in the concern that that an unstable or weak Palestinian state could possibly succumb to extremist incursions - I think that is merely the latest rational given to obscure the other reasons.
 
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unless Israelis and Palestinians change their prejudiced perception and resistance to and fear of change, and finally come to the realization that their fate is intertwined and neither can live in peace and security without the other.

To some extent this is true. The solution is one state with Jewish and Muslim and Christian social equality, and political equal rights guaranteed by a written constitution in a secular state. If it works in America, it can work in the Zionist paradise.

America and Israel are very very different with very different populations and national interests. I think one only has to look around the Middle East and ask - what would one state, with a Palestinian majority, many of whom have not been well served by democratic processes - look like? What happened in Egypt?
 
An interesting analysis of the current state of non-peace. It's disturbing, because in order to overcome the status quo, deep changes in national psyche need to be looked at on both sides. It offers a very different analysis than what I usually see.

Delusions of Israelis and Palestinians Are Destroying the Peace Process

......There are certain psychological concepts that are relevant to understanding the Israeli-Palestinian conflict; the concept of illusion is an essential one. In The Future of an Illusion, Freud offers the following definition: “…we call a belief an illusion when a wish-fulfillment is a prominent factor in its motivation, and in doing so we disregard its relations to reality, just as the illusion itself sets no store by verification.”


What is characteristic of illusions is that: 1) they are derived from deep human wishes, and 2) the belief is held (or would be held) in the absence of any compelling evidence, or good rational grounds, on its behalf.


It is impossible to deny that both Israelis and Palestinians are in the grip of very powerful illusions that only serve to prolong the conflict and prevent any mutual understanding. In particular, the belief shared by many Israelis that they have a biblical right to the land (including Judea and Samaria) and that God gave it to the Jews in perpetuity is undoubtedly an illusion of yesterday.


This belief is not affirmed because there is real evidence that God deemed it to be (although two Jewish kingdoms did exist — the first in the tenth century BCE and the second beginning in 539 BCE — on the same land), but because it satisfies a deep-seated psychological need for a God-given Jewish homeland.


The belief that by expanding the settlements Israel will augment its national security and maintain its hold on the entire land is an illusion of tomorrow, which generally ignores the presence of Muslims in the same land for more than 1,300 years.


It is important to note how these illusions sustain and reinforce one another, and constitute a psychological barrier that is much more impervious to critical reflection. Israel’s illusions have served to create the logic for occupation.


The Palestinians, for their part, are not without their own illusions. They also believe that God has reserved the land for them, and appeal to the fact that they had inhabited the land for centuries. From their perspective, the presence of the al-Aqsa Mosque, which was built in 705 AD in Jerusalem, attests to their historical and religious affinity to the Holy City.


They also cling to the idea that they will someday return to the land of their forbears, as they have and continue to insist on the right of return of the Palestinian refugees, even though this has become a virtual impossibility.


The Palestinians hold fast to their illusions of yesterday and tomorrow just as blindly and desperately as the Israelis, which leads to resistance to and fear of change. As such, unless both sides change course and accept each other’s affinity to the same land, specifically because it is religiously-based, the situation is bound to lead to a catastrophe.


This has contributed to making the Israeli-Palestinian conflict both chronic and intractable, as the various illusions are continuously and consciously nurtured by daily hostile and often violent encounters between the two sides.


In seeking to bridge concepts that could link between the domains of psychology and politics in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, it could be proposed that a collective mutual resistance to change (both conscious and deliberate, and inner unconscious) protects a vulnerable identity.


Compared, for example, to the stable and mature political identities of the American, British, and French nations, the political identities of both the Israeli and Palestinian peoples are, in a way, in their adolescence.


Identities in this setting are more vulnerable, and the protagonists are naturally more defensive and resistant to change. By its very nature, the players must find it difficult (if not impossible) to articulate this publicly, as to do so is to admit to this vulnerability.


The concept of psychological resistance to change may well affect the political setting in general and the Israeli-Palestinian conflict in particular; it is closely connected to perceptions at many levels and provides protection for vulnerable identity formation.


It is this mindset, strengthened by historical experiences, which transcends the more than seven decades since the Israeli-Palestinian conflict began. Individuals and groups, Israelis and Palestinians alike, have and continue to interpret the nature of the discord between them as “you versus me” in a prejudiced and selective way.


In turn, this has stifled any new information and enabled the continuing resistance to change, which could shed new light on the nature and substance of the conflict and help advance the peace process.


The concept of unconscious resistance to change in this setting links well to the view of perceptions driving the polarization in the conflict. Historical experience, which formulates perceptions, serves among other things to enhance the sense of identity of “who we really are,” a formative collective assumption that sits at the bedrock of both key players and drives functional and dysfunctional behavior.


In principle, such a mindset prevents either side from entertaining new ideas that might lead to compromises for a peaceful solution. The paradox here is that majorities on both sides do want and seek peace, knowing full well that this would require significant concessions, but are unable to reconcile the required concessions with imbedded perceptions that have precluded these compromises as a result of resistance to and fear of change.


Therefore, any framework for peace must include provisions that would dramatically increase the odds in favor of a solution. First, both sides need to commit to reaching an agreement based on a two-state solution out of the conviction that change, which translates to coexistence, is inevitable. Therefore, they ought to adjust to each other’s requirements, which of necessity requires them to make significant concessions.


Second, to facilitate that, they must undertake reconciliatory people-to-people social, economic, cultural, and security interactions to mitigate their resistance to change, which must begin, at a minimum, one year before the negotiations commence to create the psychological and political atmosphere to cultivate the trust necessary for substantive and successful peace negotiations...


The resumption of peace talks will go nowhere unless Israelis and Palestinians change their prejudiced perception and resistance to and fear of change, and finally come to the realization that their fate is intertwined and neither can live in peace and security without the other.






The thoughts and views of just one person is hardly factual and reality. I could write a blog under a pen name pulling facts from extremist sites and pass it of as reality. Stop believing unsubstantiated blogs
 
unless Israelis and Palestinians change their prejudiced perception and resistance to and fear of change, and finally come to the realization that their fate is intertwined and neither can live in peace and security without the other.

To some extent this is true. The solution is one state with Jewish and Muslim and Christian social equality, and political equal rights guaranteed by a written constitution in a secular state. If it works in America, it can work in the Zionist paradise.






And your islamonazi friends have stated that they must be in charge for it to work.\it works in the US because it does not have a large number of muslims. The muslims would be just like Orwells pigs and be those more equal that the others
 
The article begins with a false prerogative that both sides agree there must be a two state solution.

I don't see that at all. I see a four state solution. We already have a two state solution and Israel has been forced by the failed Oslo accord to give up Gaza, which it did, 3 state solution. Now the Arab Muslims want a fourth state solution.

So how are we agreeing to a two state solution ? Are the Arab Muslims willing to give up gaza and the west bank and return the land to the Israeli's ?

The article attempts to chalk up facts, to illusions. The fact is that the last legally binding instrument allocated the entirety of the are west of the Jordan to Israel. Thats not an illusion, that a fact. The next fact is that Israel won against the Arab Leagues declaration of war, in an era where land could be gained through conquest, and particularly a defensive conquest. Thats also a simple fact. The Arab led UN didn't outlaw land acquired by conquest until it failed in its attempts to win land by conquest.

Funny how that works now isn't it. Or is someone going to try and foist that off to an illusion as well. ;--)


You're part of the miniscule minority that believes in the illusion of a Jordan/Israel 2 state solution ;)






The only valid one in view of the facts, that what you claim is arab muslim Palestine was granted to the Jews between 1917 and 1923 by the sovereign rulers
 
unless Israelis and Palestinians change their prejudiced perception and resistance to and fear of change, and finally come to the realization that their fate is intertwined and neither can live in peace and security without the other.

To some extent this is true. The solution is one state with Jewish and Muslim and Christian social equality, and political equal rights guaranteed by a written constitution in a secular state. If it works in America, it can work in the Zionist paradise.

America and Israel are very very different with very different populations and national interests. I think one only has to look around the Middle East and ask - what would one state, with a Palestinian majority, many of whom have not been well served by democratic processes - look like? What happened in Egypt?





Just look to modern day Syria and the war being raged there today. That is Jewish Palestine as a one state solution, only with the muslims having nukes.........................................
 
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The thoughts and views of just one person is hardly factual and reality. I could write a blog under a pen name pulling facts from extremist sites and pass it of as reality. Stop believing unsubstantiated blogs



Of course not. And that applies to all sources....even the Catholic Encyclopedia.

However, this writer made some good observations on both Israeli's and Palestinians, nothing "extremist" in there.
 
The article begins with a false prerogative that both sides agree there must be a two state solution.

I don't see that at all. I see a four state solution. We already have a two state solution and Israel has been forced by the failed Oslo accord to give up Gaza, which it did, 3 state solution. Now the Arab Muslims want a fourth state solution.

So how are we agreeing to a two state solution ? Are the Arab Muslims willing to give up gaza and the west bank and return the land to the Israeli's ?

The article attempts to chalk up facts, to illusions. The fact is that the last legally binding instrument allocated the entirety of the are west of the Jordan to Israel. Thats not an illusion, that a fact. The next fact is that Israel won against the Arab Leagues declaration of war, in an era where land could be gained through conquest, and particularly a defensive conquest. Thats also a simple fact. The Arab led UN didn't outlaw land acquired by conquest until it failed in its attempts to win land by conquest.

Funny how that works now isn't it. Or is someone going to try and foist that off to an illusion as well. ;--)


You're part of the miniscule minority that believes in the illusion of a Jordan/Israel 2 state solution ;)

Jordan is no illusion, neither is Israel.

Add them up and you get two states in the mandated area.

The illusion is that if we add another Arab Muslim state we'd have peace. The objective clearly isn't statehood otherwise there'd already be more than just the two states we already have. Gaza for instance, there's nothing but hatred stopping Gaza from declaring itself a state. The third state in the original mandate area. Areas A and B could also be a state anytime, a fourth state.

There's no illusion, just the false promise of peace if Israel will only let down its guard
 
I don't think Israel's opposition to a fully independent Palestine is because of ideological reasons anymore. Netanyahu has said in Hebrew (which I understand) that he doesn't want an extremist, Iran-backed, Islamist state in Israel's heartland. Considering the failed Arab Spring and what has happened in Syria and Iraq, who can blame him?


Netanyahu has stated both through inaction, settlement construction, and his own words that he has never truly supported a two-state solution. I also think ideology forms a strong part of it. There's a very strong belief in the right of Jews to reclaim all of ancient Israel those proponants carry a lot of political leverage. While there is rationality in the concern that that an unstable or weak Palestinian state could possibly succumb to extremist incursions - I think that is merely the latest rational given to obscure the other reasons.

Which is one reason he's so widely supported in Israel. No one is fooled by these false promises of peace. Look what happened in Gaza.

No reason at all Gaza couldn't declare itself a state right now except that its people are so full of hate they'd rather let their own children starve rather than forgo building that next tunnel

The only illusion I see is this nonsense about another Arab state in the heart of Israel this time would somehow bring about peace. Your not fooling anyone. There will be peace when the Geneva Conventions are followed to the letter and the combatants are segregated from the non combatants.
 
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The article begins with a false prerogative that both sides agree there must be a two state solution.

I don't see that at all. I see a four state solution. We already have a two state solution and Israel has been forced by the failed Oslo accord to give up Gaza, which it did, 3 state solution. Now the Arab Muslims want a fourth state solution.

So how are we agreeing to a two state solution ? Are the Arab Muslims willing to give up gaza and the west bank and return the land to the Israeli's ?

The article attempts to chalk up facts, to illusions. The fact is that the last legally binding instrument allocated the entirety of the are west of the Jordan to Israel. Thats not an illusion, that a fact. The next fact is that Israel won against the Arab Leagues declaration of war, in an era where land could be gained through conquest, and particularly a defensive conquest. Thats also a simple fact. The Arab led UN didn't outlaw land acquired by conquest until it failed in its attempts to win land by conquest.

Funny how that works now isn't it. Or is someone going to try and foist that off to an illusion as well. ;--)


You're part of the miniscule minority that believes in the illusion of a Jordan/Israel 2 state solution ;)

Jordan is no illusion, neither is Israel.

Add them up and you get two states in the mandated area.

The illusion is that if we add another Arab Muslim state we'd have peace. The objective clearly isn't statehood otherwise there'd already be more than just the two states we already have. Gaza for instance, there's nothing but hatred stopping Gaza from declaring itself a state. The third state in the original mandate area. Areas A and B could also be a state anytime, a fourth state.

There's no illusion, just the false promise of peace if Israel will only let down its guard

The states themselves aren't illusions, that is correct so some might wish it otherwise.

However the idea that all the Palestinians belong in Jordan or for that matter, that there is a massive right of return for all the Palestians IS.
 
The article begins with a false prerogative that both sides agree there must be a two state solution.

I don't see that at all. I see a four state solution. We already have a two state solution and Israel has been forced by the failed Oslo accord to give up Gaza, which it did, 3 state solution. Now the Arab Muslims want a fourth state solution.

So how are we agreeing to a two state solution ? Are the Arab Muslims willing to give up gaza and the west bank and return the land to the Israeli's ?

The article attempts to chalk up facts, to illusions. The fact is that the last legally binding instrument allocated the entirety of the are west of the Jordan to Israel. Thats not an illusion, that a fact. The next fact is that Israel won against the Arab Leagues declaration of war, in an era where land could be gained through conquest, and particularly a defensive conquest. Thats also a simple fact. The Arab led UN didn't outlaw land acquired by conquest until it failed in its attempts to win land by conquest.

Funny how that works now isn't it. Or is someone going to try and foist that off to an illusion as well. ;--)


You're part of the miniscule minority that believes in the illusion of a Jordan/Israel 2 state solution ;)

Jordan is no illusion, neither is Israel.

Add them up and you get two states in the mandated area.

The illusion is that if we add another Arab Muslim state we'd have peace. The objective clearly isn't statehood otherwise there'd already be more than just the two states we already have. Gaza for instance, there's nothing but hatred stopping Gaza from declaring itself a state. The third state in the original mandate area. Areas A and B could also be a state anytime, a fourth state.

There's no illusion, just the false promise of peace if Israel will only let down its guard

The states themselves aren't illusions, that is correct so some might wish it otherwise.

However the idea that all the Palestinians belong in Jordan or for that matter, that there is a massive right of return for all the Palestians IS.

I don't think all the Arab Muslims in Israel should be removed. I'v consistently said that only those who forfeit their protected persons status should be removed. I don't see any reason or legal grounds for removing the civilian population.

Whats destroying the peace process is the idea that the terrorism will be tolerated, Israel seriously needs to crack down. In that sense Israel is screwing up big times. The nice approach isn't working and they're just going to have to crack down on the violent among the Arab Muslim people in Israel.
 
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The article begins with a false prerogative that both sides agree there must be a two state solution.

I don't see that at all. I see a four state solution. We already have a two state solution and Israel has been forced by the failed Oslo accord to give up Gaza, which it did, 3 state solution. Now the Arab Muslims want a fourth state solution.

So how are we agreeing to a two state solution ? Are the Arab Muslims willing to give up gaza and the west bank and return the land to the Israeli's ?

The article attempts to chalk up facts, to illusions. The fact is that the last legally binding instrument allocated the entirety of the are west of the Jordan to Israel. Thats not an illusion, that a fact. The next fact is that Israel won against the Arab Leagues declaration of war, in an era where land could be gained through conquest, and particularly a defensive conquest. Thats also a simple fact. The Arab led UN didn't outlaw land acquired by conquest until it failed in its attempts to win land by conquest.

Funny how that works now isn't it. Or is someone going to try and foist that off to an illusion as well. ;--)


You're part of the miniscule minority that believes in the illusion of a Jordan/Israel 2 state solution ;)

Jordan is no illusion, neither is Israel.

Add them up and you get two states in the mandated area.

The illusion is that if we add another Arab Muslim state we'd have peace. The objective clearly isn't statehood otherwise there'd already be more than just the two states we already have. Gaza for instance, there's nothing but hatred stopping Gaza from declaring itself a state. The third state in the original mandate area. Areas A and B could also be a state anytime, a fourth state.

There's no illusion, just the false promise of peace if Israel will only let down its guard

The states themselves aren't illusions, that is correct so some might wish it otherwise.

However the idea that all the Palestinians belong in Jordan or for that matter, that there is a massive right of return for all the Palestians IS.

I don't think all the Arab Muslims in Israel should be removed. I'v consistently said that only those who forfeit their protected persons status should be removed. I don't see any reason or legal grounds for removing the civilian population.

Whats destroying the peace process is the idea that the terrorism will be tolerated, Israel seriously needs to crack down. In that sense Israel is screwing up big times. The nice approach isn't working and they're just going to have to crack down on the violent among the Arab Muslim people in Israel.

I don't think that's what is destroying the peace process - or not the only thing. I think a lack of faith and profound lack of trust in the motives on each side is a big contributer. Just for one example, when you have a PM who has stated publically, that there will be no Palestinian state and has similarly engaged in activities that work against the peace process - how can that not also destroy the peace process? Agree that terrorism does not help the cause at all, but there is more to it than that.
 
The article begins with a false prerogative that both sides agree there must be a two state solution.

I don't see that at all. I see a four state solution. We already have a two state solution and Israel has been forced by the failed Oslo accord to give up Gaza, which it did, 3 state solution. Now the Arab Muslims want a fourth state solution.

So how are we agreeing to a two state solution ? Are the Arab Muslims willing to give up gaza and the west bank and return the land to the Israeli's ?

The article attempts to chalk up facts, to illusions. The fact is that the last legally binding instrument allocated the entirety of the are west of the Jordan to Israel. Thats not an illusion, that a fact. The next fact is that Israel won against the Arab Leagues declaration of war, in an era where land could be gained through conquest, and particularly a defensive conquest. Thats also a simple fact. The Arab led UN didn't outlaw land acquired by conquest until it failed in its attempts to win land by conquest.

Funny how that works now isn't it. Or is someone going to try and foist that off to an illusion as well. ;--)


You're part of the miniscule minority that believes in the illusion of a Jordan/Israel 2 state solution ;)

Jordan is no illusion, neither is Israel.

Add them up and you get two states in the mandated area.

The illusion is that if we add another Arab Muslim state we'd have peace. The objective clearly isn't statehood otherwise there'd already be more than just the two states we already have. Gaza for instance, there's nothing but hatred stopping Gaza from declaring itself a state. The third state in the original mandate area. Areas A and B could also be a state anytime, a fourth state.

There's no illusion, just the false promise of peace if Israel will only let down its guard

The states themselves aren't illusions, that is correct so some might wish it otherwise.

However the idea that all the Palestinians belong in Jordan or for that matter, that there is a massive right of return for all the Palestians IS.

I don't think all the Arab Muslims in Israel should be removed. I'v consistently said that only those who forfeit their protected persons status should be removed. I don't see any reason or legal grounds for removing the civilian population.

Whats destroying the peace process is the idea that the terrorism will be tolerated, Israel seriously needs to crack down. In that sense Israel is screwing up big times. The nice approach isn't working and they're just going to have to crack down on the violent among the Arab Muslim people in Israel.

I don't think that's what is destroying the peace process - or not the only thing. I think a lack of faith and profound lack of trust in the motives on each side is a big contributer. Just for one example, when you have a PM who has stated publically, that there will be no Palestinian state and has similarly engaged in activities that work against the peace process - how can that not also destroy the peace process? Agree that terrorism does not help the cause at all, but there is more to it than that.


I can't speak for the Arab Muslims and why they hate the Judaic people so much but as a fellow native my Israeli friends have every reason to be distrustful.

Which leads us to the question of why Israel would allow an independant Arab State smack in the middle of Israel. Its just not happening and I think rightly so. The Arabs have made it clear they will not stop fighting until every native Judaic person is dead or gone

Thats no derailing the peace process, thats simple survival.
 
The only illusion I see is this nonsense about another Arab state in the heart of Israel this time would somehow bring about peace. .

Bingo. The illusion is that the Palestinians and Gazans WANT either peace or a two (four) state solution next to the State of Israel with an end of conflict agreement.

If they had wanted peace Oslo would have worked. Or they would have accepted the Olmert plan. Or any number of other plans which essentially gave them everything they SAY they want.
 
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