Delusions of Israelis and Palestinians Are Destroying the Peace Process

[montelatici]

All of the plans offered by the Israelis imposed Israeli sovereignty over the Palestinians. None of the plans offered Palestinian sovereignty. They all imposed Israeli military occupation and/or control of borders, territorial sea and air space. The fact is, Israelis have no intention of relinquishing control of the entire area of Mandate Palestine. Why deny the facts?

 

[Boston1]

All of the plans offered by the Israelis imposed Israeli sovereignty over the Palestinians. None of the plans offered Palestinian sovereignty. They all imposed Israeli military occupation and/or control of borders, territorial sea and air space. The fact is, Israelis have no intention of relinquishing control of the entire area of Mandate Palestine. Why deny the facts?

I wasn't aware the Israeli's have control over Jordan ?

The delusion is that there is a desire for peace on the part of the Arab Muslims in Israel. That another state ( 4 ? ) will make any difference.

The reality is that nothing will change until Israel toughens up on the terrorists and starts applying the Geneva Conventions.

The Arab Muslims are deluded if they think Israel is going to allow another Gaza right smack in the middle of Israel.

 

[montelatici]

Palestinian Christians and Muslims do not have anything to do with Hashemite Jordan.

 

[Shusha]

All of the plans offered by the Israelis imposed Israeli sovereignty over the Palestinians. None of the plans offered Palestinian sovereignty. They all imposed Israeli military occupation and/or control of borders, territorial sea and air space. The fact is, Israelis have no intention of relinquishing control of the entire area of Mandate Palestine. Why deny the facts?

Seriously?

The Olmert plan gave Palestine sovereignty over ALL of the West Bank and Gaza except a tiny 6.3% which would be swapped out for nearly equal land (5.8%). And contiguity! It made NO mention of the Jordan Valley as being excluded from Palestinian territory. It provided for a secure passage between Gaza and Palestine. It divided Jerusalem and gave all of East Jerusalem to Palestine and relinquished control of the Temple Mount (!!!!!!!!). It would uproot and relocate nearly 100,000 Jews. It provided for a return of (some) refugees and a family reunification plan.

It required, for security reasons, a demilitarized Palestine (no army or navy but allowed for a police force for internal security); a border with Jordan monitored by an international peace force; allowed Israel to defend itself against forces beyond its own borders, such as on the border with Jordan; Israeli access to Palestinian airspace; the permission of Israel to pursue terrorists beyond its own borders.

Olmert said, when he presented the plan to Abbas: "You will never again see such an opportunity given to you by Israel. Take it."

He was right. That ship has sailed. SO sailed. He should have taken it.

 

[Boston1]

Palestinian Christians and Muslims do not have anything to do with Hashemite Jordan.

The Jordanians are 92% Arab Muslims who are identical to any other Arab Muslim in the region. 6% christian identical to any other Arab Christians in the region and 1% druze identical to any other Arab Druze in the region

But we both know thats not the topic. The topic is the Arab Muslims desire to wipe out Israel and how that desire is destroying the peace process.

 

[Challenger]

unless Israelis and Palestinians change their prejudiced perception and resistance to and fear of change, and finally come to the realization that their fate is intertwined and neither can live in peace and security without the other.

To some extent this is true. The solution is one state with Jewish and Muslim and Christian social equality, and political equal rights guaranteed by a written constitution in a secular state. If it works in America, it can work in the Zionist paradise.

America and Israel are very very different with very different populations and national interests. I think one only has to look around the Middle East and ask - what would one state, with a Palestinian majority, many of whom have not been well served by democratic processes - look like? What happened in Egypt?

Saudi Arabia successfully destroyed a fledgling democracy, probably with American and Israeli connivance. One could ask the same question regarding South Africa, which while not perfect, functions as a democratic state, or Turkey for that matter; a nation made up of several minority ethnic groups. There is a good reason Israel has never adopted a formal written constitution and that is to maintain the "Herrenvolk" status of it's colonists. If you look at America in 1784, the place was a mess of different populations with competing interests, heavily in debt and on the verge of total anarchy in some areas. Nothing worthwhile happens overnight, if anything America should "level the playing field" to force the Zionists to negotiate in good faith, something they have never done in the past.
[edit] Not quite true, there was one instance of good faith negotiation on the part of the Zionists, and they murdered the person who tried.

 

[Challenger]

All of the plans offered by the Israelis imposed Israeli sovereignty over the Palestinians. None of the plans offered Palestinian sovereignty. They all imposed Israeli military occupation and/or control of borders, territorial sea and air space. The fact is, Israelis have no intention of relinquishing control of the entire area of Mandate Palestine. Why deny the facts?

Seriously?

The Olmert plan gave Palestine sovereignty over ALL of the West Bank and Gaza except a tiny 6.3% which would be swapped out for nearly equal land (5.8%). And contiguity! It made NO mention of the Jordan Valley as being excluded from Palestinian territory. It provided for a secure passage between Gaza and Palestine. It divided Jerusalem and gave all of East Jerusalem to Palestine and relinquished control of the Temple Mount (!!!!!!!!). It would uproot and relocate nearly 100,000 Jews. It provided for a return of (some) refugees and a family reunification plan.

It required, for security reasons, a demilitarized Palestine (no army or navy but allowed for a police force for internal security); a border with Jordan monitored by an international peace force; allowed Israel to defend itself against forces beyond its own borders, such as on the border with Jordan; Israeli access to Palestinian airspace; the permission of Israel to pursue terrorists beyond its own borders.

Olmert said, when he presented the plan to Abbas: "You will never again see such an opportunity given to you by Israel. Take it."

He was right. That ship has sailed. SO sailed. He should have taken it.

Oh so generous! You can have a "sovereign" state, except for all the trappings that enable sovereignty. Pity he never showed Abbas which 6.3% of Palestine he wanted. Olmert merely offered a Gaza style existance for the West Bank.

 

[Coyote]

unless Israelis and Palestinians change their prejudiced perception and resistance to and fear of change, and finally come to the realization that their fate is intertwined and neither can live in peace and security without the other.

To some extent this is true. The solution is one state with Jewish and Muslim and Christian social equality, and political equal rights guaranteed by a written constitution in a secular state. If it works in America, it can work in the Zionist paradise.

America and Israel are very very different with very different populations and national interests. I think one only has to look around the Middle East and ask - what would one state, with a Palestinian majority, many of whom have not been well served by democratic processes - look like? What happened in Egypt?

Saudi Arabia successfully destroyed a fledgling democracy, probably with American and Israeli connivance. One could ask the same question regarding South Africa, which while not perfect, functions as a democratic state, or Turkey for that matter; a nation made up of several minority ethnic groups. There is a good reason Israel has never adopted a formal written constitution and that is to maintain the "Herrenvolk" status of it's colonists. If you look at America in 1784, the place was a mess of different populations with competing interests, heavily in debt and on the verge of total anarchy in some areas. Nothing worthwhile happens overnight, if anything America should "level the playing field" to force the Zionists to negotiate in good faith, something they have never done in the past.
[edit] Not quite true, there was one instance of good faith negotiation on the part of the Zionists, and they murdered the person who tried.

South Africa had Nelson Mandella to negotiate the transition, replacing vengeance and anger with truth and reconciliation.
Zimbabwe did not. Compare the outcomes.
Who is the Nelson Mandella for Palestine?

Nations are unique. In terms of culture - Turkey is rather different than Egypt, Libya, Syria, etc, and the Turks aren't even Arab.

I think it's more accurate to look at recent history within that region for probabilities of what could happen. In order for a democracy to function, minority rights must be protected. How well did the new Egyptian government protect the rights of it's minority Coptic Christians when Mubarrek was toppled? How well did it protect foreign embassies on it's territories?

The thing is, you're playing with people's lives. If you were Jewish, would you trust your family's safety to an uncertain situation like that?

 

[Shusha]

Oh so generous! You can have a "sovereign" state, except for all the trappings that enable sovereignty. Pity he never showed Abbas which 6.3% of Palestine he wanted..

Sure he did. Gush Etzion, Ma'aleh Adumim and some of the communities around Jerusalem.

And the few proposals having to do with security in no way remove sovereignty from Palestine. It was a most reasonable deal.

Now its gone. Israel is unlikely at this point to offer the Temple Mount, Jerusalem, contiguity even between the two halves of Palestine, let alone Gaza, equal land swaps, a passage to Gaza, an international peacekeeping force for the Jordan border. All gone now.

Palestine is going to have to deal with some security demands in a peace agreement. No more excuses. The best way to ease the security restrictions is to play nice.

 

[montelatici]

Palestinian Christians and Muslims do not have anything to do with Hashemite Jordan.

The Jordanians are 92% Arab Muslims who are identical to any other Arab Muslim in the region. 6% christian identical to any other Arab Christians in the region and 1% druze identical to any other Arab Druze in the region

But we both know thats not the topic. The topic is the Arab Muslims desire to wipe out Israel and how that desire is destroying the peace process.

Bedouins are in no way identical or even similar to Muslim or Christian Palestinians. The Bedouin are Arabians. It would be like saying Hispanic Catholics from Colombia are identical to Hispanic Catholics from Spain.

Palestinians, Christians and Muslims, want self-rule or enfranchisement, not the destruction of Israel of Israel.

 

[ForeverYoung436]

Palestinian Christians and Muslims do not have anything to do with Hashemite Jordan.

The Jordanians are 92% Arab Muslims who are identical to any other Arab Muslim in the region. 6% christian identical to any other Arab Christians in the region and 1% druze identical to any other Arab Druze in the region

But we both know thats not the topic. The topic is the Arab Muslims desire to wipe out Israel and how that desire is destroying the peace process.

Bedouins are in no way identical or even similar to Muslim or Christian Palestinians. The Bedouin are Arabians. It would be like saying Hispanic Catholics from Colombia are identical to Hispanic Catholics from Spain.

Palestinians, Christians and Muslims, want self-rule or enfranchisement, not the destruction of Israel of Israel.

Bedouins make up only about 30% of Jordan's population. Arabs make up about 20% of Israel proper's population. Are you saying that Arabs should rule Israel?

 

[Boston1]

He's confused. The Bedouins are Arab Muslims. Thats where they all came from originally, The Bedouins as I recall originated on the Arab Peninsula although I don't have time to really dig into it at the moment.

This isn't the thread for that drivel anyway.

This one is about the peace process and how the Arab Muslims and their stooges are destroying it with their lies about peace if they only get ONE MORE nation carved out of Israel.

If they really want an independent nation all to themselves with no Jews to hate why not set up camp out in the ISIS area where you can all be friends ?

The delusion that a nation will suddenly put a stop to all the violence is just more hasbara nonsense ;--)

I love using that word, hasbara, its got a ring to it. Oh and it now means ( since we're making up new meanings for the vernacular ) "Arab Muslim lies".

Although we do seem to agree on what delusions are ;--) LMAO

 

[Challenger]

South Africa had Nelson Mandella to negotiate the transition, replacing vengeance and anger with truth and reconciliation.
Zimbabwe did not. Compare the outcomes.
Who is the Nelson Mandella for Palestine?

Palestine has plenty of "Mandelas" languishing in Zionist Israeli prisons, Marwan Barghouti springs to mind; what's really needed is not a "Mandela" but an FW de Klerk. Where is the FW de Klerk for Israel, willing to dismantle his sordid regime and promote truth and reconciliation? Find him and you'll soon get a Mandela from the Palestinians.

Nations are unique. In terms of culture - Turkey is rather different than Egypt, Libya, Syria, etc, and the Turks aren't even Arab.

No they're not. Travel across Europe and you will find cultural similarities everywhere; the same applies to Turks or Moroccans or Tunisians or Egyptians, etc.

I think it's more accurate to look at recent history within that region for probabilities of what could happen. In order for a democracy to function, minority rights must be protected. How well did the new Egyptian government protect the rights of it's minority Coptic Christians when Mubarrek was toppled? How well did it protect foreign embassies on it's territories?

Far better than they fare now under al-Sisi's murderous regime, sorry "democratic election" As for protecting foreign embassies, no country can provide total security List of attacks on diplomatic missions - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The thing is, you're playing with people's lives. If you were Jewish, would you trust your family's safety to an uncertain situation like that?

Ah, the crux of the matter. So would you prefer the illusion of "security" provided by oppressing "others", to the more tenuous security of making friends and living together as neighbours and equals? There are risks to both courses of action, but one is ultimately unsustainable.

 

[Challenger]

Sure he did. Gush Etzion, Ma'aleh Adumim and some of the communities around Jerusalem.

In other words you have no idea, show me the map.

It was a most reasonable deal.

From a Zionist colonist's perspective probably.

 

[Challenger]

I love using that word, hasbara, its got a ring to it. Oh and it now means ( since we're making up new meanings for the vernacular ) "Arab Muslim lies".

Yes, you really do like making things up, don't you.

 

[Boston1]

I love using that word, hasbara, its got a ring to it. Oh and it now means ( since we're making up new meanings for the vernacular ) "Arab Muslim lies".

Yes, you really do like making things up, don't you.

LOL this is why I hang out here. LMAO You really are just blinded by hate aren't you ?

Shall we explore who on here made up this terms 2nd meaning and who, its third ? I'll cheerfully take credit for its third meaning

Hasbara

noun informal

noun: Hasbara, hasbara's, hoosbooroo.

1. 1.
   Complete and utter bullshit spewed by Arab Muslim and terrorist sympathizers in reference to the Arab Israeli conflict.
   
   
   
2. 2.
   Whatever the Arab Muslim and terrorist sympathizers wish to think it means
   
   
   
3. 3
   Ask ForeverYoung, he seems to be the guy who actually knows what it means.

So tell us more about this delusion about how if the Israeli's let the Arab Muslims carve a terrorist enclave out of the middle of Israel it will ensure a lasting peace ?

I'm real curious as to just how that works ;--)

I mean you act like its that lack of a fourth state in the mandate area that is somehow causing this strife. So bring it on Princess, in your little world how exactly does that delusional BS fly ?

 

[Phoenall]

,

The thoughts and views of just one person is hardly factual and reality. I could write a blog under a pen name pulling facts from extremist sites and pass it of as reality. Stop believing unsubstantiated blogs

Of course not. And that applies to all sources....even the Catholic Encyclopedia.

However, this writer made some good observations on both Israeli's and Palestinians, nothing "extremist" in there.

I would have thought that a group as harshly anti Jewish as the R.C. church would hardly come down on the side of the Jews. They do blame them for murdering their God to this day, no matter what the Pope has said in recent years.

 

[Phoenall]

The article begins with a false prerogative that both sides agree there must be a two state solution.

I don't see that at all. I see a four state solution. We already have a two state solution and Israel has been forced by the failed Oslo accord to give up Gaza, which it did, 3 state solution. Now the Arab Muslims want a fourth state solution.

So how are we agreeing to a two state solution ? Are the Arab Muslims willing to give up gaza and the west bank and return the land to the Israeli's ?

The article attempts to chalk up facts, to illusions. The fact is that the last legally binding instrument allocated the entirety of the are west of the Jordan to Israel. Thats not an illusion, that a fact. The next fact is that Israel won against the Arab Leagues declaration of war, in an era where land could be gained through conquest, and particularly a defensive conquest. Thats also a simple fact. The Arab led UN didn't outlaw land acquired by conquest until it failed in its attempts to win land by conquest.

Funny how that works now isn't it. Or is someone going to try and foist that off to an illusion as well. ;--)

You're part of the miniscule minority that believes in the illusion of a Jordan/Israel 2 state solution

Jordan is no illusion, neither is Israel.

Add them up and you get two states in the mandated area.

The illusion is that if we add another Arab Muslim state we'd have peace. The objective clearly isn't statehood otherwise there'd already be more than just the two states we already have. Gaza for instance, there's nothing but hatred stopping Gaza from declaring itself a state. The third state in the original mandate area. Areas A and B could also be a state anytime, a fourth state.

There's no illusion, just the false promise of peace if Israel will only let down its guard

The states themselves aren't illusions, that is correct so some might wish it otherwise.

However the idea that all the Palestinians belong in Jordan or for that matter, that there is a massive right of return for all the Palestians IS.

When you understand that the LoN deliberately set out to partition Palestine into two unequal land areas because of concerns over either Jews or muslims becoming the owners of land mass was worrying to some. They saw war and violence as a result so petitioned the LoN to change their original plans. This resulted in Jewish Palestine to the west of the Jordan and arab Palestine to the east of the river. The plan was to allow for population swaps at first, then to pay for migration to the side that was theirs and finally forced repatriation of those that stayed and caused trouble/violence. All detailed in the LoN meetings minutes.

 

[Phoenall]

What is "nice" about the Israeli oppression of the Palestinians?

It could be worse they could have still been living under arab muslim oppression

 

[Phoenall]

I love using that word, hasbara, its got a ring to it. Oh and it now means ( since we're making up new meanings for the vernacular ) "Arab Muslim lies".

Yes, you really do like making things up, don't you.

Not as much as you do it seems, the number of LIES you spout on here.