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All of the plans offered by the Israelis imposed Israeli sovereignty over the Palestinians. None of the plans offered Palestinian sovereignty. They all imposed Israeli military occupation and/or control of borders, territorial sea and air space. The fact is, Israelis have no intention of relinquishing control of the entire area of Mandate Palestine. Why deny the facts?
All of the plans offered by the Israelis imposed Israeli sovereignty over the Palestinians. None of the plans offered Palestinian sovereignty. They all imposed Israeli military occupation and/or control of borders, territorial sea and air space. The fact is, Israelis have no intention of relinquishing control of the entire area of Mandate Palestine. Why deny the facts?
Palestinian Christians and Muslims do not have anything to do with Hashemite Jordan.
unless Israelis and Palestinians change their prejudiced perception and resistance to and fear of change, and finally come to the realization that their fate is intertwined and neither can live in peace and security without the other.
To some extent this is true. The solution is one state with Jewish and Muslim and Christian social equality, and political equal rights guaranteed by a written constitution in a secular state. If it works in America, it can work in the Zionist paradise.
America and Israel are very very different with very different populations and national interests. I think one only has to look around the Middle East and ask - what would one state, with a Palestinian majority, many of whom have not been well served by democratic processes - look like? What happened in Egypt?
All of the plans offered by the Israelis imposed Israeli sovereignty over the Palestinians. None of the plans offered Palestinian sovereignty. They all imposed Israeli military occupation and/or control of borders, territorial sea and air space. The fact is, Israelis have no intention of relinquishing control of the entire area of Mandate Palestine. Why deny the facts?
Seriously?
The Olmert plan gave Palestine sovereignty over ALL of the West Bank and Gaza except a tiny 6.3% which would be swapped out for nearly equal land (5.8%). And contiguity! It made NO mention of the Jordan Valley as being excluded from Palestinian territory. It provided for a secure passage between Gaza and Palestine. It divided Jerusalem and gave all of East Jerusalem to Palestine and relinquished control of the Temple Mount (!!!!!!!!). It would uproot and relocate nearly 100,000 Jews. It provided for a return of (some) refugees and a family reunification plan.
It required, for security reasons, a demilitarized Palestine (no army or navy but allowed for a police force for internal security); a border with Jordan monitored by an international peace force; allowed Israel to defend itself against forces beyond its own borders, such as on the border with Jordan; Israeli access to Palestinian airspace; the permission of Israel to pursue terrorists beyond its own borders.
Olmert said, when he presented the plan to Abbas: "You will never again see such an opportunity given to you by Israel. Take it."
He was right. That ship has sailed. SO sailed. He should have taken it.
unless Israelis and Palestinians change their prejudiced perception and resistance to and fear of change, and finally come to the realization that their fate is intertwined and neither can live in peace and security without the other.
To some extent this is true. The solution is one state with Jewish and Muslim and Christian social equality, and political equal rights guaranteed by a written constitution in a secular state. If it works in America, it can work in the Zionist paradise.
America and Israel are very very different with very different populations and national interests. I think one only has to look around the Middle East and ask - what would one state, with a Palestinian majority, many of whom have not been well served by democratic processes - look like? What happened in Egypt?
Saudi Arabia successfully destroyed a fledgling democracy, probably with American and Israeli connivance. One could ask the same question regarding South Africa, which while not perfect, functions as a democratic state, or Turkey for that matter; a nation made up of several minority ethnic groups. There is a good reason Israel has never adopted a formal written constitution and that is to maintain the "Herrenvolk" status of it's colonists. If you look at America in 1784, the place was a mess of different populations with competing interests, heavily in debt and on the verge of total anarchy in some areas. Nothing worthwhile happens overnight, if anything America should "level the playing field" to force the Zionists to negotiate in good faith, something they have never done in the past.
[edit] Not quite true, there was one instance of good faith negotiation on the part of the Zionists, and they murdered the person who tried.
Oh so generous! You can have a "sovereign" state, except for all the trappings that enable sovereignty. Pity he never showed Abbas which 6.3% of Palestine he wanted..
Palestinian Christians and Muslims do not have anything to do with Hashemite Jordan.
The Jordanians are 92% Arab Muslims who are identical to any other Arab Muslim in the region. 6% christian identical to any other Arab Christians in the region and 1% druze identical to any other Arab Druze in the region
But we both know thats not the topic. The topic is the Arab Muslims desire to wipe out Israel and how that desire is destroying the peace process.
Palestinian Christians and Muslims do not have anything to do with Hashemite Jordan.
The Jordanians are 92% Arab Muslims who are identical to any other Arab Muslim in the region. 6% christian identical to any other Arab Christians in the region and 1% druze identical to any other Arab Druze in the region
But we both know thats not the topic. The topic is the Arab Muslims desire to wipe out Israel and how that desire is destroying the peace process.
Bedouins are in no way identical or even similar to Muslim or Christian Palestinians. The Bedouin are Arabians. It would be like saying Hispanic Catholics from Colombia are identical to Hispanic Catholics from Spain.
Palestinians, Christians and Muslims, want self-rule or enfranchisement, not the destruction of Israel of Israel.
South Africa had Nelson Mandella to negotiate the transition, replacing vengeance and anger with truth and reconciliation.
Zimbabwe did not. Compare the outcomes.
Who is the Nelson Mandella for Palestine?
Nations are unique. In terms of culture - Turkey is rather different than Egypt, Libya, Syria, etc, and the Turks aren't even Arab.
I think it's more accurate to look at recent history within that region for probabilities of what could happen. In order for a democracy to function, minority rights must be protected. How well did the new Egyptian government protect the rights of it's minority Coptic Christians when Mubarrek was toppled? How well did it protect foreign embassies on it's territories?
The thing is, you're playing with people's lives. If you were Jewish, would you trust your family's safety to an uncertain situation like that?
Sure he did. Gush Etzion, Ma'aleh Adumim and some of the communities around Jerusalem.
It was a most reasonable deal.
I love using that word, hasbara, its got a ring to it. Oh and it now means ( since we're making up new meanings for the vernacular ) "Arab Muslim lies".
I love using that word, hasbara, its got a ring to it. Oh and it now means ( since we're making up new meanings for the vernacular ) "Arab Muslim lies".
Yes, you really do like making things up, don't you.
,
The thoughts and views of just one person is hardly factual and reality. I could write a blog under a pen name pulling facts from extremist sites and pass it of as reality. Stop believing unsubstantiated blogs
Of course not. And that applies to all sources....even the Catholic Encyclopedia.
However, this writer made some good observations on both Israeli's and Palestinians, nothing "extremist" in there.
The article begins with a false prerogative that both sides agree there must be a two state solution.
I don't see that at all. I see a four state solution. We already have a two state solution and Israel has been forced by the failed Oslo accord to give up Gaza, which it did, 3 state solution. Now the Arab Muslims want a fourth state solution.
So how are we agreeing to a two state solution ? Are the Arab Muslims willing to give up gaza and the west bank and return the land to the Israeli's ?
The article attempts to chalk up facts, to illusions. The fact is that the last legally binding instrument allocated the entirety of the are west of the Jordan to Israel. Thats not an illusion, that a fact. The next fact is that Israel won against the Arab Leagues declaration of war, in an era where land could be gained through conquest, and particularly a defensive conquest. Thats also a simple fact. The Arab led UN didn't outlaw land acquired by conquest until it failed in its attempts to win land by conquest.
Funny how that works now isn't it. Or is someone going to try and foist that off to an illusion as well. ;--)
You're part of the miniscule minority that believes in the illusion of a Jordan/Israel 2 state solution
Jordan is no illusion, neither is Israel.
Add them up and you get two states in the mandated area.
The illusion is that if we add another Arab Muslim state we'd have peace. The objective clearly isn't statehood otherwise there'd already be more than just the two states we already have. Gaza for instance, there's nothing but hatred stopping Gaza from declaring itself a state. The third state in the original mandate area. Areas A and B could also be a state anytime, a fourth state.
There's no illusion, just the false promise of peace if Israel will only let down its guard
The states themselves aren't illusions, that is correct so some might wish it otherwise.
However the idea that all the Palestinians belong in Jordan or for that matter, that there is a massive right of return for all the Palestians IS.
What is "nice" about the Israeli oppression of the Palestinians?
I love using that word, hasbara, its got a ring to it. Oh and it now means ( since we're making up new meanings for the vernacular ) "Arab Muslim lies".
Yes, you really do like making things up, don't you.
