Definitive Proof that GOD Exists?

[Derideo_Te]

All you have established is that spirituality exists. Proof of the existence of a deity requires far more than that. Humans are fallible and so is their spirituality. Under your "logic" that makes your God fallible too since his existence depends entirely upon imperfect humans ability to conceive of his existence. Since you raised the specter of spirituality being "proof" for the existence of other worldly entities you are claiming that demons exist too. Is that where you really want to go with this argument?

I have established that spirituality has always existed in humans, which means 'God' exists.

The existence of spirituality does not equate to the existence of any deity whatsoever.

You can't have spirituality and not be spiritual.

There are spiritual Atheists. Spirituality has nothing whatsoever to do with any deities.

I never said I could prove WHOSE god(s) exist.

Proof of the existence of a deity requires far more? Such as? I mean, I proved that man has always worshiped something, and Darwin said if a species has inherent traits they must be fundamental. Mankind has always had this fundamental behavior, therefore, there must be a purpose. Something has to first exist, in order to have purpose. If there were no God, human spirituality would have vanished in our species long ago.

Yet another false premise. The existence of spirituality might have been from a period prior to humans developing language. It might have been a way to communicate when it was impossible to express yourself in words. Your erroneous supposition that spirituality is only for the purpose of communicating with a deity is leading you astray. You are starting with the assumption that your God exists and therefore the existence of human spirituality is proof. The more likely scenario is that spirituality has been repurposed by religion as a means to promote their dogma.

Humans ARE fallible, and so is their spirituality. You can say that Religion is man's fallible way of understanding their spiritual maker. I don't understand how man's fallibility means God must also be fallible. I also don't understand why God has to be infallible to exist. Nor does existence demand or require belief. Black holes existed in the universe long before we believed they existed.

Peer reviewed science has proven the existence of black holes through measurements of gravitational forces. No belief required.

Demons? Interesting twist! Of course, we can use basic physical principles and advanced logic, and figure out, if "good" exists, then "evil" must also exist. If it didn't, we'd have no idea of what "good" is. This means demon spirits do exist, and as a matter of fact, some humans worship these demon spirits, and that is their God. Again... never claimed I could prove WHOSE god exists.

Until you can divorce your personal beliefs from the facts you are going nowhere with your claim.

 

[Truthmatters]

a thought exists.


thoughts of god exsit.

thoughts of purple dolphins who have a kingdom under the waves that rival all of mankind and are encrusted with diamonds exist too.

That does not mean there are really purple dolphin who have a kingdom under the waves that rival all of mankind and are encrusted with diamonds

 

[Boss]

as well as definitive proof that the physical existence of the christ rules out the possibility of him being god, without violating your premise that is.

hmm... So if an omnipotent spirit decides to manifest itself in the physical world, that is something the omnipotent entity can't achieve? Is that what you're saying?

omnipotence is a paradox that logically excludes the possibility of an omnipotent deity of any sort.

huh?

 

[G.T.]

Here is how logic works:

Can "spirituality" be explained as anything other than communication with a deity?

answer: yes, yes it can.

Has anyone ever proven spiritual communication with a deity? (belief is not proof).

Answer: no, they haven't.

So is spirituality "definitive proof" of the existence of a deity?

Absolutely not, in any logical terms whatsoever.

 

[Boss]

I think you're supremely confused as to what "proof" means.

"Spirituality" in a person does not prove God. For it to be proof, you'd have to show that it cannot be an abstract reality the person is creating in his/her own mind. A frame of being they chose to live as - despite whether God exists or not. Meaning, just because a person is "spiritual" does not mean whatever they pray to or believe in ACTUALLY EXISTS.

That's the most retarded excuse for "proof" I could possibly imagine.

No, you are the one who is confusing physical proof with spiritual proof. You are demanding physical evidence to support something not of the physical world. You are also requiring that any proof of God has to define what incarnation of God, and this is illogical as well. I can prove beyond any shadow of a doubt, two NFL teams will play in the Super Bowl this season. I don't have to tell you which teams to prove that.

You're wrong, I'm not requiring physical proof.

I'd like to see the spiritual proof.

Just because people pray and are spiritual, does not mean that WHAT they pray to EXISTS. That is not proof of its existence, simply that they pray to it. I think your logic breaks down at the fact that you don't understand what "definitive proof" really means.

LOL... You'd like to "see" spiritual proof? To "see" something would require it to have physical presence, we can't "see" things that don't physically exist.

If they pray to something, it spiritually must exist to them, or they wouldn't be praying to it.

My logic is not flawed, you keep trying to apply physical attributes to a spiritual entity, and demand physical proof of a spiritual entity, then claim I am confused about definitive proof.

 

[Truthmatters]

and some little girls believe in purple dolphins

 

[G.T.]

No, you are the one who is confusing physical proof with spiritual proof. You are demanding physical evidence to support something not of the physical world. You are also requiring that any proof of God has to define what incarnation of God, and this is illogical as well. I can prove beyond any shadow of a doubt, two NFL teams will play in the Super Bowl this season. I don't have to tell you which teams to prove that.

You're wrong, I'm not requiring physical proof.

I'd like to see the spiritual proof.

Just because people pray and are spiritual, does not mean that WHAT they pray to EXISTS. That is not proof of its existence, simply that they pray to it. I think your logic breaks down at the fact that you don't understand what "definitive proof" really means.

LOL... You'd like to "see" spiritual proof? To "see" something would require it to have physical presence, we can't "see" things that don't physically exist.

If they pray to something, it spiritually must exist to them, or they wouldn't be praying to it.

My logic is not flawed, you keep trying to apply physical attributes to a spiritual entity, and demand physical proof of a spiritual entity, then claim I am confused about definitive proof.

"See" as in, "see" you explain it here in words, dingbat.

Your logic is still poor. "Must exist to them?"

"must exist to them" implies personal belief, not objective proof.

Really, this is such an odd....conversation.


So every guy who talks to an invisible friend means that there's proof of invisible people?
Every person who has a conversation with a rock is definitive proof that rocks talk?

That logic is a failure.

 

[eflatminor]

I have established that spirituality has always existed in humans, which means 'God' exists.

Not really. Hey, I'm all for believing in God...have no problem with it. But your logic fails here. The existence of spirituality doesn't mean God exists, it means a belief in God exists. Big difference.

Anyway, I also get the atheist argument. If everything around us, everything we observe, evolves from the simple to the more complex, why should an omnipotent being, the ultimate in evolution, exist BEFORE the process of evolution began? It makes no sense. At least their argument is based in logic and reason. Not so yours.

So, while I have no problems with God, I can't jump on board the 'definitive proof' bandwagon just because people are spiritual. People have always felt hungry when they needed to eat. That doesn't make broccoli divine.

 

[G.T.]

The existence of spirituality doesn't mean God exists, it means a belief in God exists. Big difference.

.

Nailed it.

 

[Truthmatters]

the purple dolphins are going to be real mad at you

 

[Boss]

Here is how logic works:

Can "spirituality" be explained as anything other than communication with a deity?

answer: yes, yes it can.

Has anyone ever proven spiritual communication with a deity? (belief is not proof).

Answer: no, they haven't.

So is spirituality "definitive proof" of the existence of a deity?

Absolutely not, in any logical terms whatsoever.

First of all, I never claimed I had definitive proof of a "deity" and you are equating "deity" with "god." Presence of spirituality means that something is being worshipped which is greater than self. I never claimed I could prove what that thing is, just that it must exist.

Has anyone ever proven spiritual communication with a deity? (belief is not proof).

Answer: no, they haven't.

Again, you are attempting to mix physical proof with something that isn't physical. Belief most certainly IS proof. You can have no "proof" of anything, unless you believe it proves.

Millions of followers fully believe Moses communicated with God. His proof was the 10 commandments.

 

[G.T.]

Here is how logic works:

Can "spirituality" be explained as anything other than communication with a deity?

answer: yes, yes it can.

Has anyone ever proven spiritual communication with a deity? (belief is not proof).

Answer: no, they haven't.

So is spirituality "definitive proof" of the existence of a deity?

Absolutely not, in any logical terms whatsoever.

First of all, I never claimed I had definitive proof of a "deity" and you are equating "deity" with "god." Presence of spirituality means that something is being worshipped which is greater than self. I never claimed I could prove what that thing is, just that it must exist.

Has anyone ever proven spiritual communication with a deity? (belief is not proof).

Answer: no, they haven't.

Again, you are attempting to mix physical proof with something that isn't physical. Belief most certainly IS proof. You can have no "proof" of anything, unless you believe it proves.

Millions of followers fully believe Moses communicated with God. His proof was the 10 commandments.

Belief is proof?

Ok, we're done here.

 

[Truthmatters]

We often hear the God-haters chortle... you don't have definitive proof that god exists, therefore, it must be a fallacy. I have often been puzzled by this argument, because it seems to indicate a complete lack of basic comprehension and logic. Many people certainly DO have definitive proof that god exists, that's why they believe in god. You may not be willing to accept their proof, because it is spiritual and not physical, but that's your problem.

You see, we can't expect a spiritual entity to exist in the physical sense, then it would be a physical entity. By it's very nature, God doesn't have to physically exist to exist as a spirit or energy. So the demands for physical proof of a spiritual entity are devoid of logic to begin with. Does a thought exist? You can't see it, there is no physical proof of it's existence, but does it not still exist? How about an inspiration? How about a dream? How about love?

As you can see, the "existence" of something can be physical or nonphysical, or even spiritual. So in order to evaluate the existence of something spiritual, we have to use spiritual evidence, since physical evidence doesn't logically apply. We don't demand spiritual evidence to prove the physical.... if you demonstrate how rain is caused with physical science, and someone says...well God tells me that rain is His tears... what would you say to that? It's backward, mouth-breathing and knuckle-dragging? Right? Well, that is someone applying spiritual evidence to the physical, and rejecting physical evidence. Yes, it's kind of stupid, isn't it? Just as stupid as demanding physical evidence to support a spiritual entity, and rejecting spiritual evidence.

Now to the "definitive proof" part. Since we have now determined that Spiritual evidence is what is needed to prove God's existence, we take you back 70,000 years or so, to the ancient people of Lake Mungo, one of the oldest human civilizations ever discovered. There, they found evidence of ritual burial using red ochre in ceremony. This is important because it signifies presence of spirituality. We can trace this human connection with spirituality all through mankind's history to present day religions. Mankind has always been spiritually connected to something greater than self. Since our very origins.

Perhaps this is where we can interject some relative physical science, from none other than the father of evolution, Mr. Charles Darwin. In his book, Origin of the Species, Darwin points out that behavioral traits which are inherent in a species, exist for some fundamental reason pertaining to the advancement of the species, otherwise they are discarded over time through natural selection. No species of animal we have ever studied, just does something inherently, with no fundamental reason. Salmon swim upstream for a reason. Dogs wag their tails for a reason. We may not understand the reason, but Darwin tells us, there has to be one.

So there you have it, in just a few short paragraphs. Definitive proof that God exists!

dude your words are right here

 

[Truthmatters]

belief does not equal proof

 

[Boss]

The existence of spirituality doesn't mean God exists, it means a belief in God exists. Big difference.

.

Nailed it.

However, the existence of spirituality in humans for as long as humans have existed, means that something spiritual must exist, or we would have discarded the trait, according to Darwin.

So... Failed to nail!

 

[G.T.]

The existence of spirituality doesn't mean God exists, it means a belief in God exists. Big difference.

.

Nailed it.

However, the existence of spirituality in humans for as long as humans have existed, means that something spiritual must exist, or we would have discarded the trait, according to Darwin.

So... Failed to nail!

Incorrect. It actually could be a brain mechanism used to alleviate the fear of eternal death.

That there are tons of explanations for spirituality mean that "definitive proof" has not been even close to met, not even close.

Again, you're the guy who said "belief is proof."

So let's talk about logic failures.

When the earth was believe to be flat, it was PROOF that it was flat?

Yea, wipe that off.

 

[Boss]

belief does not equal proof

Sure it does, especially when dealing with spiritual proof. Remember, we can't apply physical proof criteria here, we're not talking about physical existence. ANY kind of proof, physical or spiritual, requires belief.

 

[G.T.]

belief does not equal proof

Sure it does, especially when dealing with spiritual proof. Remember, we can't apply physical proof criteria here, we're not talking about physical existence. ANY kind of proof, physical or spiritual, requires belief.

No, it does not. Ever, within the confines of logic.

Belief does not equal proof. Belief could be incorrect belief. Belief could be misled belief. Belief could be ignorant belief. Belief could be mentally unstable belief.

Belief, in no realm of existence, is equal to proof.

 

[G.T.]

This thread gives Theists a bad name, because there are plenty of theists who can carry a full on conversation following Actual logic in defense of their beliefs.

 

[eflatminor]

The existence of spirituality doesn't mean God exists, it means a belief in God exists. Big difference.

.

Nailed it.

However, the existence of spirituality in humans for as long as humans have existed, means that something spiritual must exist

No, it only means spirituality must exist. People believe they're going to win the lottery, but that belief doesn't make it so.

, or we would have discarded the trait, according to Darwin.

That's not how evolution works. We would have only discarded spirituality if it presented an obstacle to successful breeding. It does not. In fact, spirituality offers comfort from the unknown and would therefore be seen as a positive trait, not one that would have been discarded. Just because there is much humans do not understand doesn't mean the hope that some higher power knows what's going on proves the existence of that power. It simply doesn't.