Debt is Pushing the US Into Fascism

[Redcurtain]

Is the US borrowing its way to Fascism?

20th century versions of the merger of state and corporate power (Germany, Japan, Italy, and Spain) interacted differently in each country's particular history and conditions.

If it comes here, the Federal Reserve will play a key role:

Richard D. Wolff - The U.S. Is Borrowing Its Way to Fascism | Brave New Europe

"Today’s crisis-ridden capitalist economy is more dependent on credit than at any time in the system’s history.

"More than ever, credit sustains the purchasing power of consumers and of government programs.

"Capitalists depend on that purchasing power..."

"Once it was mostly private entities—rich families, banks, insurance companies, and pension funds—that were the chief lenders to corporations. They bought and held the corporate bonds and IOUs.

"Now those private lenders increasingly sell their corporate bonds to the Federal Reserve.

"That happens when the corporate loans get packaged into asset-backed securities sold to the Federal Reserve.

"More recently, the Fed has undertaken the market purchase of exchange-traded funds (ETFs) composed of corporate bonds and of corporate bonds direct from their private issuers."

Some Things Never Change
View attachment 387406
Renegade Inc - Michael Hudson: He died for our debts, not our sins | Brave New Europe

What’s wrong with fascism?

 

[Andylusion]

So what?

Your job, whatever job you made a living off of.... wouldn't exist without someone having invested in its creation.

Bezos's contribution to the creation of Amazon is not in dispute; however, in the present day his 800,000 employees (not to mention the Internet) contribute infinitely more to its success than Greedy Jeff's daily contribution to the corporation.

Which doesn't change the fact, that without Bezos, there wouldn't be 800,000 employees.

Amazon is paying for internet service. I don't know what you mean to imply by that. Amazon pays hundreds of thousands for internet services, and that doesn't include the cost of stringing their own fiber optic lines, and the thousands spent on computer hardware.

So... yes they make money off the internet, and they pay for the internet, that they make money off of. Not sure what your point is.

That's like saying a mom&pop shop owes all their wealth to water, sewer, and the power company.

In fact you could say the same about me, since my job involves internet service, so I guess I'm an evil capitalist that owes my $30,000 to some dumb socialist like you, because my employment is internet based.

Ridiculous.

contribute infinitely more to its success than Greedy Jeff's daily contribution to the corporation

Again, that show utter ignorance. Running a company is exceptionally hard. If you think that Bezos is walking into work at 11 AM, taking a hour lunch, and going home by 2 PM.... that kind of thinking means you are an ignorant idiot.

CEOs work their asses off. CEOs that don't work their asses off, don't end up CEO for very long.

The only leaders that don't work, are Union bosses, that come in, sleep a few hours, and go home.

I was working at an evil financial company, in their IT support. We had a special rule for the executives of the company. We were not allowed to go and service their machines after 5 AM, or before 10 PM.

The reason is because the executives were well known for coming in before 6 AM, and leaving after 9 PM. We could not take them offline during those hours, because that is when they worked.

Moreover, again if you think the CEOs do not create trillions of dollars in value, compared to an hourly employee, you are crazy.

The decision a CEO makes can end up costing billions, or making billions.

Again, CEO of Enron. Billions of dollars lost by a bad CEO.

CEO of Apple computer, Steve Jobs, created billions of dollars in wealth.

You remember the products Apple produced before Steve Jobs came back in 1997, right?

The Newton. The Performa. The Macintosh TV. The Bandai Pippin. Between 1985 and 1997, when Steve Jobs was gone from Apple, they had product flop after product flop.

People have no idea just how badly Apple had done, and how close it was to failing.

Then they brought Steve Jobs back, and you had the iMacs, and iPods, and iPhones, and iTunes, the online song sales, and the list of brilliant products and successes is long.

If you think the employees of Apple contributed more to the success of Apple, than Steve Jobs, then why did Apple almost cease to exist during the period between 1985 to 1997? You realize that many of the employees that were there in 1985 when Steve Jobs left, were still there in 1997 when he came back.

Why didn't they make Apple super successful during the time he was gone?

Because the CEO has many extremely important functions. A vision of the future. An ability to evaluate ideas and theories. Has to decide what products to promote, and when to promote them. Has to determine when a product is losing to much money, and when to pull the plug. And when a product is going to be a hit, and if they should add even more money to it.

On and on it goes. The CEO is absolutely critical to the success of a company, and without that guy doing the hard work of determining what to do, and how to do things, a company will implode.

Ironically, once again, socialists are the ones that proved that. Under Lenin and Stalin, they eliminated the CEOs and executives, and the result was an economic disaster in Russia. If you knew your Soviet history, you should have read about how eventually the soviets learned the value of managers and executives in the success of factories and companies.

 

[Andylusion]

However, when morons say things like "making the company totally unprofitable on paper, and thus immune from taxation" That's when you drift from fact to opinion.

FY20 Q4 - Press Releases - Investor Relations - Microsoft
It's baffling to me, that people like you, or I should say people like the writers who made that link you posted.... can say such obviously false statements, and never think anyone will fact check them, which it is so easy to do.

You believe Microsoft's version?
Why is that?
Did you also believe Enron and Bernie Madoff?
Did you ever take any classes at

So you are trying to tell me that Microsoft lied to the SEC?

Prove it. File a complaint. The Federal government, which routinely fines companies for far smaller infractions than that, would have Microsoft in an audit, and court proceedings, in a matter of minutes.

Moreover, the investors in Microsoft (such as myself), would have Microsoft in court paying out millions in punitive damages.

You realize that if Microsoft wasn't paying those billions in taxes, that means that profits were higher than stated, and that would mean that investors lost millions on millions on millions in dividend payments........

You are telling me, that Microsoft lied in official government audited reporting?

Prove it. You need to prove that. You can't just saying "this is the truth, because I'm a mindless left-winger." Prove it.

Until you prove that, yes, I believe those documents are accurate.

 

[Andylusion]

With or without the internet, doesn't matter. Fact is, it does exist, with the internet, and every single time people make a purchase through Amazon, it justifies why Bezo makes the big money.

Jeff makes the big money for the same reason as every other capitalist Robber Barron has...by exploiting those who create their wealth:

Jeff Bezos’s $150 Billion Fortune Is a Policy Failure

"Bezos and Amazon are in many ways ideal exemplars of the triumph of capital over labor, like the Waltons and Walmart and Rockefeller and Standard Oil before them..."

"In contrast, half of Amazon’s employees make less than $28,446 a year, per the company’s legal filings.*

"Some workers have complained of getting timed six-minute bathroom breaks. (Amazon said it does not track or limit employee bathroom use.)

"Warehouse workers need to pick goods and pack boxes at closely monitored speeds, handling up to 1,000 items and walking as many as 15 miles per shift.

"Contractors have repeatedly complained of wage-and-hour violations and argued that the company retaliates against whistleblowers.

"An Amazon temp died on the floor just a few years ago."

None of that makes any difference to our point.

If you don't like the job, don't work there.

All jobs closely monitor speeds. That's part of the deal. You have to produce enough value, to cover your own employment, and make the company money. If you don't, then you don't get hired.

This would be true all over the world, in every company that has ever existed, including co-ops.

The only place that isn't true, is in socialist countries.... which is why those countries suck, and no one wants to live there.

 

[georgephillip]

Yeah, I'd like to see *YOU* working on a farm. And by the way, if you are living on Social Security right now, you really shouldn't be calling others parasites. That is literally what social security is, and Medicare too

I've spent years working in citrus groves near my hometown. My experience was easier than toiling in row crops, but I would match its rigor with anything you've done.

SS and Medicare benefits are earned across a working lifetime. They are far more legitimate than the Divine Right of Capital.

The Divine Right of Capital by Marjorie Kelly: A Summary

"'If equality under the law is the hallmark of democracy, privilege sanctioned by law is the hallmark of aristocracy.'

"Just as feudal lords extracted wealth from serfs on their lands, today’s aristocracy does the same with corporations.

"Privilege – the right of the aristocracy – is 'a right to income detached from productivity.'"

 

[Andylusion]

We are clearly divided by class. It's always been this way. Doesn't mean anything bad it's just a fact. Different classes live differently. Wealthy associate with wealthy and poor associate with poor. In my 88 years of life it's been this way. When SS and Medicare are taken away or cut off the nation will indeed go into a tailspin like we've never seen. Those programs have made life alot better for how many millions of americans who worked their butts off just to barely scrape by.

Not true actually. Remember, that for every single dollar that improves your life through a government program, means that one dollar PLUS... has taken away from and making someone else's life worse.

You understand that, right? Every dollar that makes one persons life better, must by definition make someone else worse off by MORE than a dollar.

Because every dollar you get from the government, means someone else had to lose that dollar, plus more than that dollar, to pay for the cost of government.

So that's the problem with looking at SS and Medicare, is that you can see the people who benefit from those programs, but you never noticed the millions of people who didn't get a raise, because the company paid the government in taxes, instead of their workers in wages. You don't see the millions of people who have less money in their paychecks to pay for those programs for other people.

One of the things I'm always shocked people don't know, is that in Europe, everyone earns lower wages than the US. Engineers, Carpenters, Managers, Researchers, Executives even, everyone earns less money in Europe.

Why? Because the money to pay for free health are, and free education, and free pensions, and free everything else they want... has to come from somewhere. And if the company has to pay the government in Germany for example, $10 Million more in taxes, that is $10 Million less they can pay to employees.

Then those German engineers come to the US, and shocked they can nearly double their salary over what they were paid in Europe.

But you don't see that. You don't see the people harmed by all those programs. You see the people collecting the money from government. Not the people paying it.

So you think "they have been a benefit", when in fact, those programs have done more to harm the public, than any good.

Those programs have made life alot better for how many millions of americans who worked their butts off just to barely scrape by.

And that's the rub. What you, and those people, don't know.... is that it likely specifically because of all those programs, that they are barely scraping by.

How many thousands on thousands of dollars more, would all those people have.... if those programs didn't exist? Hard to say, but I guarantee you it would be hundreds of thousands over a life time.

And G-d forbid you are foolish enough to think Social Security will take care of you....

You realize that the AVERAGE....... *AVERAGE* social security benefit is $18,000 a year? You realize that here in Ohio, the minimum wage is $17,000 a year?

That means 50% of all Social Security beneficiaries are getting LESS than $18,000 a year from the program.

And they are taxed into poverty their entire lives, in order to live in poverty until they die.... and you think this has made them better off how?

By the way, do you realize that if you could eliminate Social Security, and invest that money in a private investment of your own choice, that every single American in the entire country, would retire a millionaire? You realize that?

 

[georgephillip]

So you have seen what happened in Venezuela when they kicked out the capitalists, right?

I saw what happened to infant mortality rates and literacy levels when Chavez required Venezuelan capitalists to pay their fair share of taxes; did you miss the reaction of the capitalists who control the global reserve currency?

Financial Imperialism-The Case of Venezuela

"In a world where US Capitalism is the dominant hegemon the US currency—the dollar—is the centerpiece of the US global economic empire. The dollar serves as the global trading currency as well as the global banking reserves currency.

"More than 85% of all global trade (export and import) is done in dollars. Certain commodities, like global oil and oil futures contracts, are traded virtually only in dollars."

Did you happen to notice what happened when capitalists put sanctions on Venezuelan oil sales?

 

[Andylusion]

How does anyone survive on 28 grand? For that I don't work all that hard. But if they get some govt help I guess they can make it.

I survived on $10 grand, with zero government help.

Honestly, you can live on very little.

Now is it fun? No, of course earning more money results in life being easier.

But truthfully, there is only two reasons people can't make it on very little.

A: They live in a left-wing government wrecked area, such as a place with massive taxes, and a screwed up housing market.

B: They simply want to live a luxury life, on a low income.

Unless you live in Seattle or NYC, or some other super high tax, screwed up by government area... the problem isn't that you earn too little money, but rather that you blow your money on things you think you need, that you don't.

Cut your spending. You can live on very little. And I'm not asking anyone to do anything, that I myself have not done.

 

[georgephillip]

That hasn't happened. The poor in Venezuela today, are worse off than they ever were when the capitalists were in the country.

Capitalists control the GLOBAL economy.

Trump’s Economic Sanctions Have Cost Venezuela About $6bn Since August 2017

 

[Andylusion]

So you have seen what happened in Venezuela when they kicked out the capitalists, right?

I saw what happened to infant mortality rates and literacy levels when Chavez required Venezuelan capitalists to pay their fair share of taxes; did you miss the reaction of the capitalists who control the global reserve currency?

Financial Imperialism-The Case of Venezuela

"In a world where US Capitalism is the dominant hegemon the US currency—the dollar—is the centerpiece of the US global economic empire. The dollar serves as the global trading currency as well as the global banking reserves currency.

"More than 85% of all global trade (export and import) is done in dollars. Certain commodities, like global oil and oil futures contracts, are traded virtually only in dollars."

Did you happen to notice what happened when capitalists put sanctions on Venezuelan oil sales?

Again, you can do all kinds of stuff with other people's money.... until the money disappears.

Capitalists will leave, if you force them out, and then you have no money.

'All we have are walls': crisis leaves Venezuelaâs schools crumbling

Schools across the country in dire straits as teachers abandon the profession or skip the country amid one of the worst economic downturns in modern history

www.theguardian.com

Yeah, not too impressed with literacy rates today, are we?

Under Capitalism, short term pain, leads to long term gain. That's how America itself rose from being the youngest and least wealthy, to the most wealthy and prosperous nation in the world.

Under socialism, like what we see above... short term gain... everything is fantastic when you have other people's money to loot and use for yourself.

But the long term, is just death.

 

[Andylusion]

That hasn't happened. The poor in Venezuela today, are worse off than they ever were when the capitalists were in the country.

Capitalists control the GLOBAL economy.

Trump’s Economic Sanctions Have Cost Venezuela About $6bn Since August 2017

Not relevant though. Does not make any difference.

The food shortages in Venezuela started almost 10 years before Trump put in place an oil sanction.

And that ignores why the sanctions were put in place, namely because officials in the Socialist government of Venezuela, were looting the government owned oil company, and moving the profits off shore. They were moving money into private accounts outside Venezuela, while the citizens of Venezuela were starving.

So Trump, being smarter than socialist morons like you, realized that obviously the oil money was not going to benefit the public anyway, and it was being used for corrupt purposes, to enrich people in the socialist government, while people died in their country.

The oil sanctions were the right move, by anyone with even the smallest sense of morality, and the injustice of people being starved to death in the country, by a corrupt government.

 

[georgephillip]

Depends on if you have people in government, who believe they should shut down the economy over a sniffle.

If this was not an election year, or if there had been far fewer Democrats in office, I wager none of this would have happened.

How many Americans have died unnecessarily because of Trump's incompetence?

The Graphic Truth: Two different pandemics - EU vs US

 

[Andylusion]

Yeah, I'd like to see *YOU* working on a farm. And by the way, if you are living on Social Security right now, you really shouldn't be calling others parasites. That is literally what social security is, and Medicare too

I've spent years working in citrus groves near my hometown. My experience was easier than toiling in row crops, but I would match its rigor with anything you've done.

SS and Medicare benefits are earned across a working lifetime. They are far more legitimate than the Divine Right of Capital.

The Divine Right of Capital by Marjorie Kelly: A Summary

"'If equality under the law is the hallmark of democracy, privilege sanctioned by law is the hallmark of aristocracy.'

"Just as feudal lords extracted wealth from serfs on their lands, today’s aristocracy does the same with corporations.

"Privilege – the right of the aristocracy – is 'a right to income detached from productivity.'"

SS and Medicare benefits are earned across a working lifetime.

Well you are wrong. If those are benefits are earned, then so are benefits that companies get from government, due to their working across a lifetime.

Social Security, is a tax, just like the corporate income tax, is a tax.

Benefits are paid out by social security, are welfare benefits. Just like any other welfare benefit.

If you believe that paying tax, entitles you to a government benefit.... then you just now justified every government handout to anyone anywhere.... including companies and the super wealthy.

"Privilege – the right of the aristocracy – is 'a right to income detached from productivity.'"

Are you collecting any government money, detached from productivity?

What do you think social security is, other than a right to an income detached from productivity?

 

[dudmuck]

So you have seen what happened in Venezuela when they kicked out the capitalists, right?

I saw what happened to infant mortality rates and literacy levels when Chavez required Venezuelan capitalists to pay their fair share of taxes; did you miss the reaction of the capitalists who control the global reserve currency?

Financial Imperialism-The Case of Venezuela

"In a world where US Capitalism is the dominant hegemon the US currency—the dollar—is the centerpiece of the US global economic empire. The dollar serves as the global trading currency as well as the global banking reserves currency.

"More than 85% of all global trade (export and import) is done in dollars. Certain commodities, like global oil and oil futures contracts, are traded virtually only in dollars."

Did you happen to notice what happened when capitalists put sanctions on Venezuelan oil sales?

Again, you can do all kinds of stuff with other people's money.... until the money disappears.

Capitalists will leave, if you force them out, and then you have no money.

'All we have are walls': crisis leaves Venezuelaâs schools crumbling

Schools across the country in dire straits as teachers abandon the profession or skip the country amid one of the worst economic downturns in modern history

www.theguardian.com

View attachment 392164

Yeah, not too impressed with literacy rates today, are we?

View attachment 392167

Under Capitalism, short term pain, leads to long term gain. That's how America itself rose from being the youngest and least wealthy, to the most wealthy and prosperous nation in the world.

Under socialism, like what we see above... short term gain... everything is fantastic when you have other people's money to loot and use for yourself.

But the long term, is just death.

 

[Andylusion]

Depends on if you have people in government, who believe they should shut down the economy over a sniffle.

If this was not an election year, or if there had been far fewer Democrats in office, I wager none of this would have happened.

How many Americans have died unnecessarily because of Trump's incompetence?

The Graphic Truth: Two different pandemics - EU vs US

Zero. No country has prevented Covid deaths. None.

 

[Andylusion]

So you have seen what happened in Venezuela when they kicked out the capitalists, right?

I saw what happened to infant mortality rates and literacy levels when Chavez required Venezuelan capitalists to pay their fair share of taxes; did you miss the reaction of the capitalists who control the global reserve currency?

Financial Imperialism-The Case of Venezuela

"In a world where US Capitalism is the dominant hegemon the US currency—the dollar—is the centerpiece of the US global economic empire. The dollar serves as the global trading currency as well as the global banking reserves currency.

"More than 85% of all global trade (export and import) is done in dollars. Certain commodities, like global oil and oil futures contracts, are traded virtually only in dollars."

Did you happen to notice what happened when capitalists put sanctions on Venezuelan oil sales?

Again, you can do all kinds of stuff with other people's money.... until the money disappears.

Capitalists will leave, if you force them out, and then you have no money.

'All we have are walls': crisis leaves Venezuelaâs schools crumbling

Schools across the country in dire straits as teachers abandon the profession or skip the country amid one of the worst economic downturns in modern history

www.theguardian.com

View attachment 392164

Yeah, not too impressed with literacy rates today, are we?

View attachment 392167

Under Capitalism, short term pain, leads to long term gain. That's how America itself rose from being the youngest and least wealthy, to the most wealthy and prosperous nation in the world.

Under socialism, like what we see above... short term gain... everything is fantastic when you have other people's money to loot and use for yourself.

But the long term, is just death.

Well that's entirely false, from the very first statement.

We did call bank bailouts socialism. The whole entire Tea Party movement, was started by opposing the socialist bank bailouts.

The conservative caucus in the House, presented an alternative to the bank bailouts, because conservatives completely opposed them.

I personally, got a list of every single member in government, that voted in favor of the bank bailouts, and voted against every single one of them, Republican or Democrat.

So.... foot-in-mouth much?

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

I saw what happened to infant mortality rates and literacy levels when Chavez required Venezuelan capitalists to pay their fair share of taxes;

Did you believe Chavez's lies? Have you always been this gullible?

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

So you have seen what happened in Venezuela when they kicked out the capitalists, right?

I saw what happened to infant mortality rates and literacy levels when Chavez required Venezuelan capitalists to pay their fair share of taxes; did you miss the reaction of the capitalists who control the global reserve currency?

Financial Imperialism-The Case of Venezuela

"In a world where US Capitalism is the dominant hegemon the US currency—the dollar—is the centerpiece of the US global economic empire. The dollar serves as the global trading currency as well as the global banking reserves currency.

"More than 85% of all global trade (export and import) is done in dollars. Certain commodities, like global oil and oil futures contracts, are traded virtually only in dollars."

Did you happen to notice what happened when capitalists put sanctions on Venezuelan oil sales?

Again, you can do all kinds of stuff with other people's money.... until the money disappears.

Capitalists will leave, if you force them out, and then you have no money.

'All we have are walls': crisis leaves Venezuelaâs schools crumbling

Schools across the country in dire straits as teachers abandon the profession or skip the country amid one of the worst economic downturns in modern history

www.theguardian.com

View attachment 392164

Yeah, not too impressed with literacy rates today, are we?

View attachment 392167

Under Capitalism, short term pain, leads to long term gain. That's how America itself rose from being the youngest and least wealthy, to the most wealthy and prosperous nation in the world.

Under socialism, like what we see above... short term gain... everything is fantastic when you have other people's money to loot and use for yourself.

But the long term, is just death.

TARP loans were repaid, the US Treasury made tens of billions in profits.
Oil and gas companies aren't getting subsidies when they write off business expenses.

 

[georgephillip]

Don't be a debtor. Stop borrowing. Live within your means. If you don't have the money to buy something..... don't.

So if you can't afford to buy food or pay rent, which do you spend cash on and which basic need do you put on your credit card?

Living wage - Wikipedia

"A living wage is defined as the minimum income necessary for a worker to meet their basic needs.[3]

"This is not the same as a subsistence wage, which refers to a biological minimum. Needs are defined to include food, housing, and other essential needs such as clothing.

"The goal of a living wage is to allow a worker to afford a basic but decent standard of living through employment without government subsidies."

Capitalism seldom pays a living wage because parasites like shareholders extract value from a corporation beyond what they contribute.

 

[georgephillip]

I can't think of a single example of anything Trump said that was divisive.

White supremacy requires dividing those who should be allies.

"Down in the polls and failing to control a raging pandemic, the president cast himself as waging battle against a 'new far-left fascism' that imperils American values and seeks to erase history."

Trump Uses Mount Rushmore Speech to Deliver Divisive Culture War Message