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Debate With Atheists/Leftists is Futile

Blues Man

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...A mother who lost her baby needs not to know which evil god had done this. She needs to know that god loves her, although such a terrible thing did happen to her...
“Atheism turns out to be too simple. If the whole universe has no meaning, we should never have found out that it has no meaning…” - C.S. Lewis

Modern humanism is the faith that through science humankind can know the truth and still be free. But if Darwin’s theory of natural selection is true, this is impossible. The human mind serves evolutionary success, not truth! – John Gray

Why do you think the universe must have some meaning?

Why can't the universe just be what it is and nothing more?
Maybe we're getting off track here. We like reality. Sure, sometimes bad things happen to good people but that makes reality even more interesting. Where are u on this, are u happy & do u enjoy living?

Of course I enjoy living. I have worked hard to improve myself and I have come to a place where I am at peace with myself and the world around me.

I don't need to think that the universe or a tree has to have some meaning to it's existence.

I don't even have to believe my life has meaning to the universe or even to most people in order to be grateful for my short time on in this world.
Thanks for clarifying.

My guess is that you and I have a lot in common w/ our belief systems, but did u notice that you responded w/ one sentence telling me what u DO believe & two sentences describing what you DO NOT believe? My hope is that this was because we're in a convo and u imagined that I wanted to know what you do not believe, but my fear is that you're letting your life be defined in terms of what you're not.

No chance of that is there?
Not really.
Huh, more negativism.

On your positive side you've said "...improve myself and I have come to a place where I am at peace with myself and the world around..." and I can very much tune into that, but one difference I got is my consideration for others. Do u value the existance of others in your reality?
Of course.

That path I walk is one of compassion for all living beings and respect for the natural world and of gratitude that these beings are part of the world of which I am fortunate to be a part of.

I describe the life I am attempting to live as cruelty free.

I don't dwell on what I am not or what i don't believe even if I do make those statements sometimes. The forum here isn't really comparable to real life interactions and I think sometimes nuance gets lost in the literal
whoa, what an amazing day, sorry I'm slow here but I'm back now; at any rate it sounds like we're 100% in agreement on everything so far here.

There seems to be a fuss going on here about "meaning" in things. I've never been too sure about just what that's supposed to be, tho in my experiance everyone seems to think its so important. Like, not only the churches but even the atheist group The Humanists made a big thing about finding "meaning". My take on that is that if it's so important to them then maybe they're thinking of something that I've already solved or they're into something that I haven't gotten to yet, so either way we got a situation where they're ok with it & I'm ok w/o it.

What's ur take?
Most people seek meaning from external sources.

I tend to agree with Buddhists that everything we need to deal with problems and to create meaning for ourselves is already within us.
That's what I was interested in, the idea the Buddhists have of devotion in prayer yet an unwillingness to talk about God Himself beyond the Divinity within ourselves. Truly an honest, realistic, and respectful approach. Of course there are many disciplines (aka denominations) of Buddhism yet the common thread is distinct.

But w/ regard to what we were talking about, if what we got isn't "meaning" imho it'll do until some other "meaning" comes along.
Buddhism is a nontheistic practice. Some Budhhists believe in gods some don't.
 

expat_panama

Gold Member
Joined
Apr 12, 2011
Messages
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382
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...A mother who lost her baby needs not to know which evil god had done this. She needs to know that god loves her, although such a terrible thing did happen to her...
“Atheism turns out to be too simple. If the whole universe has no meaning, we should never have found out that it has no meaning…” - C.S. Lewis

Modern humanism is the faith that through science humankind can know the truth and still be free. But if Darwin’s theory of natural selection is true, this is impossible. The human mind serves evolutionary success, not truth! – John Gray

Why do you think the universe must have some meaning?

Why can't the universe just be what it is and nothing more?
Maybe we're getting off track here. We like reality. Sure, sometimes bad things happen to good people but that makes reality even more interesting. Where are u on this, are u happy & do u enjoy living?

Of course I enjoy living. I have worked hard to improve myself and I have come to a place where I am at peace with myself and the world around me.

I don't need to think that the universe or a tree has to have some meaning to it's existence.

I don't even have to believe my life has meaning to the universe or even to most people in order to be grateful for my short time on in this world.
Thanks for clarifying.

My guess is that you and I have a lot in common w/ our belief systems, but did u notice that you responded w/ one sentence telling me what u DO believe & two sentences describing what you DO NOT believe? My hope is that this was because we're in a convo and u imagined that I wanted to know what you do not believe, but my fear is that you're letting your life be defined in terms of what you're not.

No chance of that is there?
Not really.
Huh, more negativism.

On your positive side you've said "...improve myself and I have come to a place where I am at peace with myself and the world around..." and I can very much tune into that, but one difference I got is my consideration for others. Do u value the existance of others in your reality?
Of course.

That path I walk is one of compassion for all living beings and respect for the natural world and of gratitude that these beings are part of the world of which I am fortunate to be a part of.

I describe the life I am attempting to live as cruelty free.

I don't dwell on what I am not or what i don't believe even if I do make those statements sometimes. The forum here isn't really comparable to real life interactions and I think sometimes nuance gets lost in the literal
whoa, what an amazing day, sorry I'm slow here but I'm back now; at any rate it sounds like we're 100% in agreement on everything so far here.

There seems to be a fuss going on here about "meaning" in things. I've never been too sure about just what that's supposed to be, tho in my experiance everyone seems to think its so important. Like, not only the churches but even the atheist group The Humanists made a big thing about finding "meaning". My take on that is that if it's so important to them then maybe they're thinking of something that I've already solved or they're into something that I haven't gotten to yet, so either way we got a situation where they're ok with it & I'm ok w/o it.

What's ur take?
Most people seek meaning from external sources.

I tend to agree with Buddhists that everything we need to deal with problems and to create meaning for ourselves is already within us.
That's what I was interested in, the idea the Buddhists have of devotion in prayer yet an unwillingness to talk about God Himself beyond the Divinity within ourselves. Truly an honest, realistic, and respectful approach. Of course there are many disciplines (aka denominations) of Buddhism yet the common thread is distinct.

But w/ regard to what we were talking about, if what we got isn't "meaning" imho it'll do until some other "meaning" comes along.
Buddhism is a nontheistic practice. Some Budhhists believe in gods some don't.
there are many Buddhists who'll be willing to say that, and there are also many others who just don't want to go there at all. We need to keep in mind that generally Buddhists pray and depending on which site u look at u get a different story about the nature of Buddhist prayer. That said, again there's a common thread and perhaps a useful quote (from here) might be "
We pray to the whole that gives rise to, and has agency through, the many. We pray that enlightened qualities become our continual way of living, bringing benefit to us and all we encounter.
We're talking about a mysterious yet passionate subject, but (mho) if we let the adhearants speak for themselves (avoiding third party sites where folks talk about what "they" believe) my experiance is that we find a lot of harmony --many paths to the same goodness.
 

Blues Man

Gold Member
Joined
Aug 28, 2016
Messages
14,863
Reaction score
5,080
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...A mother who lost her baby needs not to know which evil god had done this. She needs to know that god loves her, although such a terrible thing did happen to her...
“Atheism turns out to be too simple. If the whole universe has no meaning, we should never have found out that it has no meaning…” - C.S. Lewis

Modern humanism is the faith that through science humankind can know the truth and still be free. But if Darwin’s theory of natural selection is true, this is impossible. The human mind serves evolutionary success, not truth! – John Gray

Why do you think the universe must have some meaning?

Why can't the universe just be what it is and nothing more?
Maybe we're getting off track here. We like reality. Sure, sometimes bad things happen to good people but that makes reality even more interesting. Where are u on this, are u happy & do u enjoy living?

Of course I enjoy living. I have worked hard to improve myself and I have come to a place where I am at peace with myself and the world around me.

I don't need to think that the universe or a tree has to have some meaning to it's existence.

I don't even have to believe my life has meaning to the universe or even to most people in order to be grateful for my short time on in this world.
Thanks for clarifying.

My guess is that you and I have a lot in common w/ our belief systems, but did u notice that you responded w/ one sentence telling me what u DO believe & two sentences describing what you DO NOT believe? My hope is that this was because we're in a convo and u imagined that I wanted to know what you do not believe, but my fear is that you're letting your life be defined in terms of what you're not.

No chance of that is there?
Not really.
Huh, more negativism.

On your positive side you've said "...improve myself and I have come to a place where I am at peace with myself and the world around..." and I can very much tune into that, but one difference I got is my consideration for others. Do u value the existance of others in your reality?
Of course.

That path I walk is one of compassion for all living beings and respect for the natural world and of gratitude that these beings are part of the world of which I am fortunate to be a part of.

I describe the life I am attempting to live as cruelty free.

I don't dwell on what I am not or what i don't believe even if I do make those statements sometimes. The forum here isn't really comparable to real life interactions and I think sometimes nuance gets lost in the literal
whoa, what an amazing day, sorry I'm slow here but I'm back now; at any rate it sounds like we're 100% in agreement on everything so far here.

There seems to be a fuss going on here about "meaning" in things. I've never been too sure about just what that's supposed to be, tho in my experiance everyone seems to think its so important. Like, not only the churches but even the atheist group The Humanists made a big thing about finding "meaning". My take on that is that if it's so important to them then maybe they're thinking of something that I've already solved or they're into something that I haven't gotten to yet, so either way we got a situation where they're ok with it & I'm ok w/o it.

What's ur take?
Most people seek meaning from external sources.

I tend to agree with Buddhists that everything we need to deal with problems and to create meaning for ourselves is already within us.
That's what I was interested in, the idea the Buddhists have of devotion in prayer yet an unwillingness to talk about God Himself beyond the Divinity within ourselves. Truly an honest, realistic, and respectful approach. Of course there are many disciplines (aka denominations) of Buddhism yet the common thread is distinct.

But w/ regard to what we were talking about, if what we got isn't "meaning" imho it'll do until some other "meaning" comes along.
Buddhism is a nontheistic practice. Some Budhhists believe in gods some don't.
there are many Buddhists who'll be willing to say that, and there are also many others who just don't want to go there at all. We need to keep in mind that generally Buddhists pray and depending on which site u look at u get a different story about the nature of Buddhist prayer. That said, again there's a common thread and perhaps a useful quote (from here) might be "
We pray to the whole that gives rise to, and has agency through, the many. We pray that enlightened qualities become our continual way of living, bringing benefit to us and all we encounter.
We're talking about a mysterious yet passionate subject, but (mho) if we let the adhearants speak for themselves (avoiding third party sites where folks talk about what "they" believe) my experiance is that we find a lot of harmony --many paths to the same goodness.
They don't need to go there at all because Buddhism is non theistic
 

expat_panama

Gold Member
Joined
Apr 12, 2011
Messages
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...A mother who lost her baby needs not to know which evil god had done this. She needs to know that god loves her, although such a terrible thing did happen to her...
“Atheism turns out to be too simple. If the whole universe has no meaning, we should never have found out that it has no meaning…” - C.S. Lewis

Modern humanism is the faith that through science humankind can know the truth and still be free. But if Darwin’s theory of natural selection is true, this is impossible. The human mind serves evolutionary success, not truth! – John Gray

Why do you think the universe must have some meaning?

Why can't the universe just be what it is and nothing more?
Maybe we're getting off track here. We like reality. Sure, sometimes bad things happen to good people but that makes reality even more interesting. Where are u on this, are u happy & do u enjoy living?

Of course I enjoy living. I have worked hard to improve myself and I have come to a place where I am at peace with myself and the world around me.

I don't need to think that the universe or a tree has to have some meaning to it's existence.

I don't even have to believe my life has meaning to the universe or even to most people in order to be grateful for my short time on in this world.
Thanks for clarifying.

My guess is that you and I have a lot in common w/ our belief systems, but did u notice that you responded w/ one sentence telling me what u DO believe & two sentences describing what you DO NOT believe? My hope is that this was because we're in a convo and u imagined that I wanted to know what you do not believe, but my fear is that you're letting your life be defined in terms of what you're not.

No chance of that is there?
Not really.
Huh, more negativism.

On your positive side you've said "...improve myself and I have come to a place where I am at peace with myself and the world around..." and I can very much tune into that, but one difference I got is my consideration for others. Do u value the existance of others in your reality?
Of course.

That path I walk is one of compassion for all living beings and respect for the natural world and of gratitude that these beings are part of the world of which I am fortunate to be a part of.

I describe the life I am attempting to live as cruelty free.

I don't dwell on what I am not or what i don't believe even if I do make those statements sometimes. The forum here isn't really comparable to real life interactions and I think sometimes nuance gets lost in the literal
whoa, what an amazing day, sorry I'm slow here but I'm back now; at any rate it sounds like we're 100% in agreement on everything so far here.

There seems to be a fuss going on here about "meaning" in things. I've never been too sure about just what that's supposed to be, tho in my experiance everyone seems to think its so important. Like, not only the churches but even the atheist group The Humanists made a big thing about finding "meaning". My take on that is that if it's so important to them then maybe they're thinking of something that I've already solved or they're into something that I haven't gotten to yet, so either way we got a situation where they're ok with it & I'm ok w/o it.

What's ur take?
Most people seek meaning from external sources.

I tend to agree with Buddhists that everything we need to deal with problems and to create meaning for ourselves is already within us.
That's what I was interested in, the idea the Buddhists have of devotion in prayer yet an unwillingness to talk about God Himself beyond the Divinity within ourselves. Truly an honest, realistic, and respectful approach. Of course there are many disciplines (aka denominations) of Buddhism yet the common thread is distinct.

But w/ regard to what we were talking about, if what we got isn't "meaning" imho it'll do until some other "meaning" comes along.
Buddhism is a nontheistic practice. Some Budhhists believe in gods some don't.
there are many Buddhists who'll be willing to say that, and there are also many others who just don't want to go there at all. We need to keep in mind that generally Buddhists pray and depending on which site u look at u get a different story about the nature of Buddhist prayer. That said, again there's a common thread and perhaps a useful quote (from here) might be "
We pray to the whole that gives rise to, and has agency through, the many. We pray that enlightened qualities become our continual way of living, bringing benefit to us and all we encounter.
We're talking about a mysterious yet passionate subject, but (mho) if we let the adhearants speak for themselves (avoiding third party sites where folks talk about what "they" believe) my experiance is that we find a lot of harmony --many paths to the same goodness.
They don't need to go there at all because Buddhism is non theistic
You've said that already and a problem we get into w/ that is that (imho) "non-theistic" is more than a term where we can get a definition, but rather it's more like a concept that we'd have to work out. And we haven't.

There's so much more to Buddhism beyond what it's not. What it is (at the Buddhist Zone) has been listed thus--
  • Reincarnation
  • Karma
  • Meditation
  • The Four Noble Truths
  • Noble Eightfold Path
  • The Five Precepts

--and what I get basically includes consequences of our actions, peace and harmony w/ the cosmos, acquiring of virtues. some kind of existance after an earthly death, the need for prayer and meditation.

howzat?
 

Blues Man

Gold Member
Joined
Aug 28, 2016
Messages
14,863
Reaction score
5,080
Points
290
...A mother who lost her baby needs not to know which evil god had done this. She needs to know that god loves her, although such a terrible thing did happen to her...
“Atheism turns out to be too simple. If the whole universe has no meaning, we should never have found out that it has no meaning…” - C.S. Lewis

Modern humanism is the faith that through science humankind can know the truth and still be free. But if Darwin’s theory of natural selection is true, this is impossible. The human mind serves evolutionary success, not truth! – John Gray

Why do you think the universe must have some meaning?

Why can't the universe just be what it is and nothing more?
Maybe we're getting off track here. We like reality. Sure, sometimes bad things happen to good people but that makes reality even more interesting. Where are u on this, are u happy & do u enjoy living?

Of course I enjoy living. I have worked hard to improve myself and I have come to a place where I am at peace with myself and the world around me.

I don't need to think that the universe or a tree has to have some meaning to it's existence.

I don't even have to believe my life has meaning to the universe or even to most people in order to be grateful for my short time on in this world.
Thanks for clarifying.

My guess is that you and I have a lot in common w/ our belief systems, but did u notice that you responded w/ one sentence telling me what u DO believe & two sentences describing what you DO NOT believe? My hope is that this was because we're in a convo and u imagined that I wanted to know what you do not believe, but my fear is that you're letting your life be defined in terms of what you're not.

No chance of that is there?
Not really.
Huh, more negativism.

On your positive side you've said "...improve myself and I have come to a place where I am at peace with myself and the world around..." and I can very much tune into that, but one difference I got is my consideration for others. Do u value the existance of others in your reality?
Of course.

That path I walk is one of compassion for all living beings and respect for the natural world and of gratitude that these beings are part of the world of which I am fortunate to be a part of.

I describe the life I am attempting to live as cruelty free.

I don't dwell on what I am not or what i don't believe even if I do make those statements sometimes. The forum here isn't really comparable to real life interactions and I think sometimes nuance gets lost in the literal
whoa, what an amazing day, sorry I'm slow here but I'm back now; at any rate it sounds like we're 100% in agreement on everything so far here.

There seems to be a fuss going on here about "meaning" in things. I've never been too sure about just what that's supposed to be, tho in my experiance everyone seems to think its so important. Like, not only the churches but even the atheist group The Humanists made a big thing about finding "meaning". My take on that is that if it's so important to them then maybe they're thinking of something that I've already solved or they're into something that I haven't gotten to yet, so either way we got a situation where they're ok with it & I'm ok w/o it.

What's ur take?
Most people seek meaning from external sources.

I tend to agree with Buddhists that everything we need to deal with problems and to create meaning for ourselves is already within us.
That's what I was interested in, the idea the Buddhists have of devotion in prayer yet an unwillingness to talk about God Himself beyond the Divinity within ourselves. Truly an honest, realistic, and respectful approach. Of course there are many disciplines (aka denominations) of Buddhism yet the common thread is distinct.

But w/ regard to what we were talking about, if what we got isn't "meaning" imho it'll do until some other "meaning" comes along.
Buddhism is a nontheistic practice. Some Budhhists believe in gods some don't.
there are many Buddhists who'll be willing to say that, and there are also many others who just don't want to go there at all. We need to keep in mind that generally Buddhists pray and depending on which site u look at u get a different story about the nature of Buddhist prayer. That said, again there's a common thread and perhaps a useful quote (from here) might be "
We pray to the whole that gives rise to, and has agency through, the many. We pray that enlightened qualities become our continual way of living, bringing benefit to us and all we encounter.
We're talking about a mysterious yet passionate subject, but (mho) if we let the adhearants speak for themselves (avoiding third party sites where folks talk about what "they" believe) my experiance is that we find a lot of harmony --many paths to the same goodness.
They don't need to go there at all because Buddhism is non theistic
You've said that already and a problem we get into w/ that is that (imho) "non-theistic" is more than a term where we can get a definition, but rather it's more like a concept that we'd have to work out. And we haven't.

There's so much more to Buddhism beyond what it's not. What it is (at the Buddhist Zone) has been listed thus--
  • Reincarnation
  • Karma
  • Meditation
  • The Four Noble Truths
  • Noble Eightfold Path
  • The Five Precepts

--and what I get basically includes consequences of our actions, peace and harmony w/ the cosmos, acquiring of virtues. some kind of existance after an earthly death, the need for prayer and meditation.

howzat?

Not all Buddhists believe in reincarnation as in you live many lives as many forms etc.

Reincarnation as I see it means nothing more than your constituent atoms are recycled
 

expat_panama

Gold Member
Joined
Apr 12, 2011
Messages
3,005
Reaction score
382
Points
130
...A mother who lost her baby needs not to know which evil god had done this. She needs to know that god loves her, although such a terrible thing did happen to her...
“Atheism turns out to be too simple. If the whole universe has no meaning, we should never have found out that it has no meaning…” - C.S. Lewis

Modern humanism is the faith that through science humankind can know the truth and still be free. But if Darwin’s theory of natural selection is true, this is impossible. The human mind serves evolutionary success, not truth! – John Gray

Why do you think the universe must have some meaning?

Why can't the universe just be what it is and nothing more?
Maybe we're getting off track here. We like reality. Sure, sometimes bad things happen to good people but that makes reality even more interesting. Where are u on this, are u happy & do u enjoy living?

Of course I enjoy living. I have worked hard to improve myself and I have come to a place where I am at peace with myself and the world around me.

I don't need to think that the universe or a tree has to have some meaning to it's existence.

I don't even have to believe my life has meaning to the universe or even to most people in order to be grateful for my short time on in this world.
Thanks for clarifying.

My guess is that you and I have a lot in common w/ our belief systems, but did u notice that you responded w/ one sentence telling me what u DO believe & two sentences describing what you DO NOT believe? My hope is that this was because we're in a convo and u imagined that I wanted to know what you do not believe, but my fear is that you're letting your life be defined in terms of what you're not.

No chance of that is there?
Not really.
Huh, more negativism.

On your positive side you've said "...improve myself and I have come to a place where I am at peace with myself and the world around..." and I can very much tune into that, but one difference I got is my consideration for others. Do u value the existance of others in your reality?
Of course.

That path I walk is one of compassion for all living beings and respect for the natural world and of gratitude that these beings are part of the world of which I am fortunate to be a part of.

I describe the life I am attempting to live as cruelty free.

I don't dwell on what I am not or what i don't believe even if I do make those statements sometimes. The forum here isn't really comparable to real life interactions and I think sometimes nuance gets lost in the literal
whoa, what an amazing day, sorry I'm slow here but I'm back now; at any rate it sounds like we're 100% in agreement on everything so far here.

There seems to be a fuss going on here about "meaning" in things. I've never been too sure about just what that's supposed to be, tho in my experiance everyone seems to think its so important. Like, not only the churches but even the atheist group The Humanists made a big thing about finding "meaning". My take on that is that if it's so important to them then maybe they're thinking of something that I've already solved or they're into something that I haven't gotten to yet, so either way we got a situation where they're ok with it & I'm ok w/o it.

What's ur take?
Most people seek meaning from external sources.

I tend to agree with Buddhists that everything we need to deal with problems and to create meaning for ourselves is already within us.
That's what I was interested in, the idea the Buddhists have of devotion in prayer yet an unwillingness to talk about God Himself beyond the Divinity within ourselves. Truly an honest, realistic, and respectful approach. Of course there are many disciplines (aka denominations) of Buddhism yet the common thread is distinct.

But w/ regard to what we were talking about, if what we got isn't "meaning" imho it'll do until some other "meaning" comes along.
Buddhism is a nontheistic practice. Some Budhhists believe in gods some don't.
there are many Buddhists who'll be willing to say that, and there are also many others who just don't want to go there at all. We need to keep in mind that generally Buddhists pray and depending on which site u look at u get a different story about the nature of Buddhist prayer. That said, again there's a common thread and perhaps a useful quote (from here) might be "
We pray to the whole that gives rise to, and has agency through, the many. We pray that enlightened qualities become our continual way of living, bringing benefit to us and all we encounter.
We're talking about a mysterious yet passionate subject, but (mho) if we let the adhearants speak for themselves (avoiding third party sites where folks talk about what "they" believe) my experiance is that we find a lot of harmony --many paths to the same goodness.
They don't need to go there at all because Buddhism is non theistic
You've said that already and a problem we get into w/ that is that (imho) "non-theistic" is more than a term where we can get a definition, but rather it's more like a concept that we'd have to work out. And we haven't.

There's so much more to Buddhism beyond what it's not. What it is (at the Buddhist Zone) has been listed thus--
  • Reincarnation
  • Karma
  • Meditation
  • The Four Noble Truths
  • Noble Eightfold Path
  • The Five Precepts

--and what I get basically includes consequences of our actions, peace and harmony w/ the cosmos, acquiring of virtues. some kind of existance after an earthly death, the need for prayer and meditation.

howzat?

Not all Buddhists believe in reincarnation as in you live many lives as many forms etc.

Reincarnation as I see it means nothing more than your constituent atoms are recycled
There is no Great Buddha in the sky that made Buddhist Zone the supreme diviner of what Buddhism is. So we can throw out whatever we want. There's a danger that if we throw out too much then I could say that my parakeet is a Buddist. if I want --iow things get way out of hand.

my take is that it's a matter of emphasis, that we focus on what we want & leave others to run off to what they want. If anyone were to engage me in some kind of convo I could respond w/ my thoughts & observations, but they haven't.
 

ding

Confront reality
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...A mother who lost her baby needs not to know which evil god had done this. She needs to know that god loves her, although such a terrible thing did happen to her...
“Atheism turns out to be too simple. If the whole universe has no meaning, we should never have found out that it has no meaning…” - C.S. Lewis

Modern humanism is the faith that through science humankind can know the truth and still be free. But if Darwin’s theory of natural selection is true, this is impossible. The human mind serves evolutionary success, not truth! – John Gray

Why do you think the universe must have some meaning?

Why can't the universe just be what it is and nothing more?
Maybe we're getting off track here. We like reality. Sure, sometimes bad things happen to good people but that makes reality even more interesting. Where are u on this, are u happy & do u enjoy living?

Of course I enjoy living. I have worked hard to improve myself and I have come to a place where I am at peace with myself and the world around me.

I don't need to think that the universe or a tree has to have some meaning to it's existence.

I don't even have to believe my life has meaning to the universe or even to most people in order to be grateful for my short time on in this world.
Thanks for clarifying.

My guess is that you and I have a lot in common w/ our belief systems, but did u notice that you responded w/ one sentence telling me what u DO believe & two sentences describing what you DO NOT believe? My hope is that this was because we're in a convo and u imagined that I wanted to know what you do not believe, but my fear is that you're letting your life be defined in terms of what you're not.

No chance of that is there?
Not really.
Huh, more negativism.

On your positive side you've said "...improve myself and I have come to a place where I am at peace with myself and the world around..." and I can very much tune into that, but one difference I got is my consideration for others. Do u value the existance of others in your reality?
Of course.

That path I walk is one of compassion for all living beings and respect for the natural world and of gratitude that these beings are part of the world of which I am fortunate to be a part of.

I describe the life I am attempting to live as cruelty free.

I don't dwell on what I am not or what i don't believe even if I do make those statements sometimes. The forum here isn't really comparable to real life interactions and I think sometimes nuance gets lost in the literal
whoa, what an amazing day, sorry I'm slow here but I'm back now; at any rate it sounds like we're 100% in agreement on everything so far here.

There seems to be a fuss going on here about "meaning" in things. I've never been too sure about just what that's supposed to be, tho in my experiance everyone seems to think its so important. Like, not only the churches but even the atheist group The Humanists made a big thing about finding "meaning". My take on that is that if it's so important to them then maybe they're thinking of something that I've already solved or they're into something that I haven't gotten to yet, so either way we got a situation where they're ok with it & I'm ok w/o it.

What's ur take?
Most people seek meaning from external sources.

I tend to agree with Buddhists that everything we need to deal with problems and to create meaning for ourselves is already within us.
That's what I was interested in, the idea the Buddhists have of devotion in prayer yet an unwillingness to talk about God Himself beyond the Divinity within ourselves. Truly an honest, realistic, and respectful approach. Of course there are many disciplines (aka denominations) of Buddhism yet the common thread is distinct.

But w/ regard to what we were talking about, if what we got isn't "meaning" imho it'll do until some other "meaning" comes along.
Buddhism is a nontheistic practice. Some Budhhists believe in gods some don't.
there are many Buddhists who'll be willing to say that, and there are also many others who just don't want to go there at all. We need to keep in mind that generally Buddhists pray and depending on which site u look at u get a different story about the nature of Buddhist prayer. That said, again there's a common thread and perhaps a useful quote (from here) might be "
We pray to the whole that gives rise to, and has agency through, the many. We pray that enlightened qualities become our continual way of living, bringing benefit to us and all we encounter.
We're talking about a mysterious yet passionate subject, but (mho) if we let the adhearants speak for themselves (avoiding third party sites where folks talk about what "they" believe) my experiance is that we find a lot of harmony --many paths to the same goodness.
They don't need to go there at all because Buddhism is non theistic
You've said that already and a problem we get into w/ that is that (imho) "non-theistic" is more than a term where we can get a definition, but rather it's more like a concept that we'd have to work out. And we haven't.

There's so much more to Buddhism beyond what it's not. What it is (at the Buddhist Zone) has been listed thus--
  • Reincarnation
  • Karma
  • Meditation
  • The Four Noble Truths
  • Noble Eightfold Path
  • The Five Precepts

--and what I get basically includes consequences of our actions, peace and harmony w/ the cosmos, acquiring of virtues. some kind of existance after an earthly death, the need for prayer and meditation.

howzat?

Not all Buddhists believe in reincarnation as in you live many lives as many forms etc.

Reincarnation as I see it means nothing more than your constituent atoms are recycled
There is no Great Buddha in the sky that made Buddhist Zone the supreme diviner of what Buddhism is. So we can throw out whatever we want. There's a danger that if we throw out too much then I could say that my parakeet is a Buddist. if I want --iow things get way out of hand.

my take is that it's a matter of emphasis, that we focus on what we want & leave others to run off to what they want. If anyone were to engage me in some kind of convo I could respond w/ my thoughts & observations, but they haven't.
Ok, what are your thoughts and observations on suffering and what we were made for (if anything)?

Siddhārtha Gautama was a Hindu reformist. He believed that it had become fettered. Theology, ritual, authority, grace, mystery and tradition are components of religion. He believed they had become overbalanced. Where the form had replaced the meaning. He didn't reject them. He rejected the imbalance. He was a called the rebel child of Hinduism. He asked his followers, "did I ever teach you that God existed?" They said, "no." He asked them, "did I ever teach you that God didn't exist?" They said, "no." He asked them, "did I teach you the world is eternal?" They said, "no." He asked them, "did I teach you the world isn't eternal?" They said, "no." He then asked them, "what have I taught you?" They said, you have taught us suffering and the end of suffering."​
He was a rationalist and a moralist. He taught that people should work out their own salvation with diligence. He was not against Hinduism. He was against the corruption which had entered into Hinduism and wanted to get back to what was important in Hinduism. He believed we crave and cling to impermanent states and things which are incapable of satisfying us. Which is very true. We are free to pursue pleasure, wealth, fame and power but none of those things will satisfy us because we were made for more.​
 

expat_panama

Gold Member
Joined
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Messages
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...A mother who lost her baby needs not to know which evil god had done this. She needs to know that god loves her, although such a terrible thing did happen to her...
“Atheism turns out to be too simple. If the whole universe has no meaning, we should never have found out that it has no meaning…” - C.S. Lewis

Modern humanism is the faith that through science humankind can know the truth and still be free. But if Darwin’s theory of natural selection is true, this is impossible. The human mind serves evolutionary success, not truth! – John Gray

Why do you think the universe must have some meaning?

Why can't the universe just be what it is and nothing more?
Maybe we're getting off track here. We like reality. Sure, sometimes bad things happen to good people but that makes reality even more interesting. Where are u on this, are u happy & do u enjoy living?

Of course I enjoy living. I have worked hard to improve myself and I have come to a place where I am at peace with myself and the world around me.

I don't need to think that the universe or a tree has to have some meaning to it's existence.

I don't even have to believe my life has meaning to the universe or even to most people in order to be grateful for my short time on in this world.
Thanks for clarifying.

My guess is that you and I have a lot in common w/ our belief systems, but did u notice that you responded w/ one sentence telling me what u DO believe & two sentences describing what you DO NOT believe? My hope is that this was because we're in a convo and u imagined that I wanted to know what you do not believe, but my fear is that you're letting your life be defined in terms of what you're not.

No chance of that is there?
Not really.
Huh, more negativism.

On your positive side you've said "...improve myself and I have come to a place where I am at peace with myself and the world around..." and I can very much tune into that, but one difference I got is my consideration for others. Do u value the existance of others in your reality?
Of course.

That path I walk is one of compassion for all living beings and respect for the natural world and of gratitude that these beings are part of the world of which I am fortunate to be a part of.

I describe the life I am attempting to live as cruelty free.

I don't dwell on what I am not or what i don't believe even if I do make those statements sometimes. The forum here isn't really comparable to real life interactions and I think sometimes nuance gets lost in the literal
whoa, what an amazing day, sorry I'm slow here but I'm back now; at any rate it sounds like we're 100% in agreement on everything so far here.

There seems to be a fuss going on here about "meaning" in things. I've never been too sure about just what that's supposed to be, tho in my experiance everyone seems to think its so important. Like, not only the churches but even the atheist group The Humanists made a big thing about finding "meaning". My take on that is that if it's so important to them then maybe they're thinking of something that I've already solved or they're into something that I haven't gotten to yet, so either way we got a situation where they're ok with it & I'm ok w/o it.

What's ur take?
Most people seek meaning from external sources.

I tend to agree with Buddhists that everything we need to deal with problems and to create meaning for ourselves is already within us.
That's what I was interested in, the idea the Buddhists have of devotion in prayer yet an unwillingness to talk about God Himself beyond the Divinity within ourselves. Truly an honest, realistic, and respectful approach. Of course there are many disciplines (aka denominations) of Buddhism yet the common thread is distinct.

But w/ regard to what we were talking about, if what we got isn't "meaning" imho it'll do until some other "meaning" comes along.
Buddhism is a nontheistic practice. Some Budhhists believe in gods some don't.
there are many Buddhists who'll be willing to say that, and there are also many others who just don't want to go there at all. We need to keep in mind that generally Buddhists pray and depending on which site u look at u get a different story about the nature of Buddhist prayer. That said, again there's a common thread and perhaps a useful quote (from here) might be "
We pray to the whole that gives rise to, and has agency through, the many. We pray that enlightened qualities become our continual way of living, bringing benefit to us and all we encounter.
We're talking about a mysterious yet passionate subject, but (mho) if we let the adhearants speak for themselves (avoiding third party sites where folks talk about what "they" believe) my experiance is that we find a lot of harmony --many paths to the same goodness.
They don't need to go there at all because Buddhism is non theistic
You've said that already and a problem we get into w/ that is that (imho) "non-theistic" is more than a term where we can get a definition, but rather it's more like a concept that we'd have to work out. And we haven't.

There's so much more to Buddhism beyond what it's not. What it is (at the Buddhist Zone) has been listed thus--
  • Reincarnation
  • Karma
  • Meditation
  • The Four Noble Truths
  • Noble Eightfold Path
  • The Five Precepts

--and what I get basically includes consequences of our actions, peace and harmony w/ the cosmos, acquiring of virtues. some kind of existance after an earthly death, the need for prayer and meditation.

howzat?

Not all Buddhists believe in reincarnation as in you live many lives as many forms etc.

Reincarnation as I see it means nothing more than your constituent atoms are recycled
There is no Great Buddha in the sky that made Buddhist Zone the supreme diviner of what Buddhism is. So we can throw out whatever we want. There's a danger that if we throw out too much then I could say that my parakeet is a Buddist. if I want --iow things get way out of hand.

my take is that it's a matter of emphasis, that we focus on what we want & leave others to run off to what they want. If anyone were to engage me in some kind of convo I could respond w/ my thoughts & observations, but they haven't.
Ok, what are your thoughts and observations on suffering and what we were made for (if anything)?

Siddhārtha Gautama was a Hindu reformist. He believed that it had become fettered. Theology, ritual, authority, grace, mystery and tradition are components of religion. He believed they had become overbalanced. Where the form had replaced the meaning. He didn't reject them. He rejected the imbalance. He was a called the rebel child of Hinduism. He asked his followers, "did I ever teach you that God existed?" They said, "no." He asked them, "did I ever teach you that God didn't exist?" They said, "no." He asked them, "did I teach you the world is eternal?" They said, "no." He asked them, "did I teach you the world isn't eternal?" They said, "no." He then asked them, "what have I taught you?" They said, you have taught us suffering and the end of suffering."​
He was a rationalist and a moralist. He taught that people should work out their own salvation with diligence. He was not against Hinduism. He was against the corruption which had entered into Hinduism and wanted to get back to what was important in Hinduism. He believed we crave and cling to impermanent states and things which are incapable of satisfying us. Which is very true. We are free to pursue pleasure, wealth, fame and power but none of those things will satisfy us because we were made for more.​
Interesting and informative.

Something to keep in mind is that Buddhism is old. Six centuries older than Christianity & Christianity is old. As a consequence even though the idea of the Gautama Buddha being a reformer is desirable we not have had a long time for corruption and greed to contaminate Buddhism. Let's be clear that I'm sure not saying "define Buddhism" and certainly not "take over Buddhism". What I am saying is that we're now about ready to look beyond Buddhism.

My take is that the Buddha as u related gave us divine wisdom and that's good; and now there's more.
 

Blues Man

Gold Member
Joined
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Messages
14,863
Reaction score
5,080
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...A mother who lost her baby needs not to know which evil god had done this. She needs to know that god loves her, although such a terrible thing did happen to her...
“Atheism turns out to be too simple. If the whole universe has no meaning, we should never have found out that it has no meaning…” - C.S. Lewis

Modern humanism is the faith that through science humankind can know the truth and still be free. But if Darwin’s theory of natural selection is true, this is impossible. The human mind serves evolutionary success, not truth! – John Gray

Why do you think the universe must have some meaning?

Why can't the universe just be what it is and nothing more?
Maybe we're getting off track here. We like reality. Sure, sometimes bad things happen to good people but that makes reality even more interesting. Where are u on this, are u happy & do u enjoy living?

Of course I enjoy living. I have worked hard to improve myself and I have come to a place where I am at peace with myself and the world around me.

I don't need to think that the universe or a tree has to have some meaning to it's existence.

I don't even have to believe my life has meaning to the universe or even to most people in order to be grateful for my short time on in this world.
Thanks for clarifying.

My guess is that you and I have a lot in common w/ our belief systems, but did u notice that you responded w/ one sentence telling me what u DO believe & two sentences describing what you DO NOT believe? My hope is that this was because we're in a convo and u imagined that I wanted to know what you do not believe, but my fear is that you're letting your life be defined in terms of what you're not.

No chance of that is there?
Not really.
Huh, more negativism.

On your positive side you've said "...improve myself and I have come to a place where I am at peace with myself and the world around..." and I can very much tune into that, but one difference I got is my consideration for others. Do u value the existance of others in your reality?
Of course.

That path I walk is one of compassion for all living beings and respect for the natural world and of gratitude that these beings are part of the world of which I am fortunate to be a part of.

I describe the life I am attempting to live as cruelty free.

I don't dwell on what I am not or what i don't believe even if I do make those statements sometimes. The forum here isn't really comparable to real life interactions and I think sometimes nuance gets lost in the literal
whoa, what an amazing day, sorry I'm slow here but I'm back now; at any rate it sounds like we're 100% in agreement on everything so far here.

There seems to be a fuss going on here about "meaning" in things. I've never been too sure about just what that's supposed to be, tho in my experiance everyone seems to think its so important. Like, not only the churches but even the atheist group The Humanists made a big thing about finding "meaning". My take on that is that if it's so important to them then maybe they're thinking of something that I've already solved or they're into something that I haven't gotten to yet, so either way we got a situation where they're ok with it & I'm ok w/o it.

What's ur take?
Most people seek meaning from external sources.

I tend to agree with Buddhists that everything we need to deal with problems and to create meaning for ourselves is already within us.
That's what I was interested in, the idea the Buddhists have of devotion in prayer yet an unwillingness to talk about God Himself beyond the Divinity within ourselves. Truly an honest, realistic, and respectful approach. Of course there are many disciplines (aka denominations) of Buddhism yet the common thread is distinct.

But w/ regard to what we were talking about, if what we got isn't "meaning" imho it'll do until some other "meaning" comes along.
Buddhism is a nontheistic practice. Some Budhhists believe in gods some don't.
there are many Buddhists who'll be willing to say that, and there are also many others who just don't want to go there at all. We need to keep in mind that generally Buddhists pray and depending on which site u look at u get a different story about the nature of Buddhist prayer. That said, again there's a common thread and perhaps a useful quote (from here) might be "
We pray to the whole that gives rise to, and has agency through, the many. We pray that enlightened qualities become our continual way of living, bringing benefit to us and all we encounter.
We're talking about a mysterious yet passionate subject, but (mho) if we let the adhearants speak for themselves (avoiding third party sites where folks talk about what "they" believe) my experiance is that we find a lot of harmony --many paths to the same goodness.
They don't need to go there at all because Buddhism is non theistic
You've said that already and a problem we get into w/ that is that (imho) "non-theistic" is more than a term where we can get a definition, but rather it's more like a concept that we'd have to work out. And we haven't.

There's so much more to Buddhism beyond what it's not. What it is (at the Buddhist Zone) has been listed thus--
  • Reincarnation
  • Karma
  • Meditation
  • The Four Noble Truths
  • Noble Eightfold Path
  • The Five Precepts

--and what I get basically includes consequences of our actions, peace and harmony w/ the cosmos, acquiring of virtues. some kind of existance after an earthly death, the need for prayer and meditation.

howzat?

Not all Buddhists believe in reincarnation as in you live many lives as many forms etc.

Reincarnation as I see it means nothing more than your constituent atoms are recycled
There is no Great Buddha in the sky that made Buddhist Zone the supreme diviner of what Buddhism is. So we can throw out whatever we want. There's a danger that if we throw out too much then I could say that my parakeet is a Buddist. if I want --iow things get way out of hand.

my take is that it's a matter of emphasis, that we focus on what we want & leave others to run off to what they want. If anyone were to engage me in some kind of convo I could respond w/ my thoughts & observations, but they haven't.
Ok, what are your thoughts and observations on suffering and what we were made for (if anything)?

Siddhārtha Gautama was a Hindu reformist. He believed that it had become fettered. Theology, ritual, authority, grace, mystery and tradition are components of religion. He believed they had become overbalanced. Where the form had replaced the meaning. He didn't reject them. He rejected the imbalance. He was a called the rebel child of Hinduism. He asked his followers, "did I ever teach you that God existed?" They said, "no." He asked them, "did I ever teach you that God didn't exist?" They said, "no." He asked them, "did I teach you the world is eternal?" They said, "no." He asked them, "did I teach you the world isn't eternal?" They said, "no." He then asked them, "what have I taught you?" They said, you have taught us suffering and the end of suffering."​
He was a rationalist and a moralist. He taught that people should work out their own salvation with diligence. He was not against Hinduism. He was against the corruption which had entered into Hinduism and wanted to get back to what was important in Hinduism. He believed we crave and cling to impermanent states and things which are incapable of satisfying us. Which is very true. We are free to pursue pleasure, wealth, fame and power but none of those things will satisfy us because we were made for more.​
Interesting and informative.

Something to keep in mind is that Buddhism is old. Six centuries older than Christianity & Christianity is old. As a consequence even though the idea of the Gautama Buddha being a reformer is desirable we not have had a long time for corruption and greed to contaminate Buddhism. Let's be clear that I'm sure not saying "define Buddhism" and certainly not "take over Buddhism". What I am saying is that we're now about ready to look beyond Buddhism.

My take is that the Buddha as u related gave us divine wisdom and that's good; and now there's more.
Beyond to what?
 

expat_panama

Gold Member
Joined
Apr 12, 2011
Messages
3,005
Reaction score
382
Points
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...A mother who lost her baby needs not to know which evil god had done this. She needs to know that god loves her, although such a terrible thing did happen to her...
“Atheism turns out to be too simple. If the whole universe has no meaning, we should never have found out that it has no meaning…” - C.S. Lewis

Modern humanism is the faith that through science humankind can know the truth and still be free. But if Darwin’s theory of natural selection is true, this is impossible. The human mind serves evolutionary success, not truth! – John Gray

Why do you think the universe must have some meaning?

Why can't the universe just be what it is and nothing more?
Maybe we're getting off track here. We like reality. Sure, sometimes bad things happen to good people but that makes reality even more interesting. Where are u on this, are u happy & do u enjoy living?

Of course I enjoy living. I have worked hard to improve myself and I have come to a place where I am at peace with myself and the world around me.

I don't need to think that the universe or a tree has to have some meaning to it's existence.

I don't even have to believe my life has meaning to the universe or even to most people in order to be grateful for my short time on in this world.
Thanks for clarifying.

My guess is that you and I have a lot in common w/ our belief systems, but did u notice that you responded w/ one sentence telling me what u DO believe & two sentences describing what you DO NOT believe? My hope is that this was because we're in a convo and u imagined that I wanted to know what you do not believe, but my fear is that you're letting your life be defined in terms of what you're not.

No chance of that is there?
Not really.
Huh, more negativism.

On your positive side you've said "...improve myself and I have come to a place where I am at peace with myself and the world around..." and I can very much tune into that, but one difference I got is my consideration for others. Do u value the existance of others in your reality?
Of course.

That path I walk is one of compassion for all living beings and respect for the natural world and of gratitude that these beings are part of the world of which I am fortunate to be a part of.

I describe the life I am attempting to live as cruelty free.

I don't dwell on what I am not or what i don't believe even if I do make those statements sometimes. The forum here isn't really comparable to real life interactions and I think sometimes nuance gets lost in the literal
whoa, what an amazing day, sorry I'm slow here but I'm back now; at any rate it sounds like we're 100% in agreement on everything so far here.

There seems to be a fuss going on here about "meaning" in things. I've never been too sure about just what that's supposed to be, tho in my experiance everyone seems to think its so important. Like, not only the churches but even the atheist group The Humanists made a big thing about finding "meaning". My take on that is that if it's so important to them then maybe they're thinking of something that I've already solved or they're into something that I haven't gotten to yet, so either way we got a situation where they're ok with it & I'm ok w/o it.

What's ur take?
Most people seek meaning from external sources.

I tend to agree with Buddhists that everything we need to deal with problems and to create meaning for ourselves is already within us.
That's what I was interested in, the idea the Buddhists have of devotion in prayer yet an unwillingness to talk about God Himself beyond the Divinity within ourselves. Truly an honest, realistic, and respectful approach. Of course there are many disciplines (aka denominations) of Buddhism yet the common thread is distinct.

But w/ regard to what we were talking about, if what we got isn't "meaning" imho it'll do until some other "meaning" comes along.
Buddhism is a nontheistic practice. Some Budhhists believe in gods some don't.
there are many Buddhists who'll be willing to say that, and there are also many others who just don't want to go there at all. We need to keep in mind that generally Buddhists pray and depending on which site u look at u get a different story about the nature of Buddhist prayer. That said, again there's a common thread and perhaps a useful quote (from here) might be "
We pray to the whole that gives rise to, and has agency through, the many. We pray that enlightened qualities become our continual way of living, bringing benefit to us and all we encounter.
We're talking about a mysterious yet passionate subject, but (mho) if we let the adhearants speak for themselves (avoiding third party sites where folks talk about what "they" believe) my experiance is that we find a lot of harmony --many paths to the same goodness.
They don't need to go there at all because Buddhism is non theistic
You've said that already and a problem we get into w/ that is that (imho) "non-theistic" is more than a term where we can get a definition, but rather it's more like a concept that we'd have to work out. And we haven't.

There's so much more to Buddhism beyond what it's not. What it is (at the Buddhist Zone) has been listed thus--
  • Reincarnation
  • Karma
  • Meditation
  • The Four Noble Truths
  • Noble Eightfold Path
  • The Five Precepts

--and what I get basically includes consequences of our actions, peace and harmony w/ the cosmos, acquiring of virtues. some kind of existance after an earthly death, the need for prayer and meditation.

howzat?

Not all Buddhists believe in reincarnation as in you live many lives as many forms etc.

Reincarnation as I see it means nothing more than your constituent atoms are recycled
There is no Great Buddha in the sky that made Buddhist Zone the supreme diviner of what Buddhism is. So we can throw out whatever we want. There's a danger that if we throw out too much then I could say that my parakeet is a Buddist. if I want --iow things get way out of hand.

my take is that it's a matter of emphasis, that we focus on what we want & leave others to run off to what they want. If anyone were to engage me in some kind of convo I could respond w/ my thoughts & observations, but they haven't.
Ok, what are your thoughts and observations on suffering and what we were made for (if anything)?

Siddhārtha Gautama was a Hindu reformist. He believed that it had become fettered. Theology, ritual, authority, grace, mystery and tradition are components of religion. He believed they had become overbalanced. Where the form had replaced the meaning. He didn't reject them. He rejected the imbalance. He was a called the rebel child of Hinduism. He asked his followers, "did I ever teach you that God existed?" They said, "no." He asked them, "did I ever teach you that God didn't exist?" They said, "no." He asked them, "did I teach you the world is eternal?" They said, "no." He asked them, "did I teach you the world isn't eternal?" They said, "no." He then asked them, "what have I taught you?" They said, you have taught us suffering and the end of suffering."​
He was a rationalist and a moralist. He taught that people should work out their own salvation with diligence. He was not against Hinduism. He was against the corruption which had entered into Hinduism and wanted to get back to what was important in Hinduism. He believed we crave and cling to impermanent states and things which are incapable of satisfying us. Which is very true. We are free to pursue pleasure, wealth, fame and power but none of those things will satisfy us because we were made for more.​
Interesting and informative.

Something to keep in mind is that Buddhism is old. Six centuries older than Christianity & Christianity is old. As a consequence even though the idea of the Gautama Buddha being a reformer is desirable we not have had a long time for corruption and greed to contaminate Buddhism. Let's be clear that I'm sure not saying "define Buddhism" and certainly not "take over Buddhism". What I am saying is that we're now about ready to look beyond Buddhism.

My take is that the Buddha as u related gave us divine wisdom and that's good; and now there's more.
Beyond to what?
Life is very very big & there's much to it. A lot's changed since Gautama Buddha came to us, and sure there's an awful lot of important stuff that he shared but imho we are simply not the same kind of animal we were the better part of 3 millennia ago. Of course what he gave us was true & necessary. What I'm saying is that as many have pointed out there's much that's come about since his time that's also true & necessary.

Hey, the universe will last (as we can see it) maybe another 10 or 20 billion years, and life on earth will last only about another one billion years. Long before that the human race will be replaced by a new species of which we're really not in a position to imagine. What I'm saying is that things change.

Eventually we need to move beyond Buddha to new realities, and while many will refuse to go forward and instead insist on living in a mode better suited for thousands of years ago, the rest of us will move ahead.

So while I can tell u what I've gone beyond into, I can't tell u what u need to see.
 

ding

Confront reality
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...A mother who lost her baby needs not to know which evil god had done this. She needs to know that god loves her, although such a terrible thing did happen to her...
“Atheism turns out to be too simple. If the whole universe has no meaning, we should never have found out that it has no meaning…” - C.S. Lewis

Modern humanism is the faith that through science humankind can know the truth and still be free. But if Darwin’s theory of natural selection is true, this is impossible. The human mind serves evolutionary success, not truth! – John Gray

Why do you think the universe must have some meaning?

Why can't the universe just be what it is and nothing more?
Maybe we're getting off track here. We like reality. Sure, sometimes bad things happen to good people but that makes reality even more interesting. Where are u on this, are u happy & do u enjoy living?

Of course I enjoy living. I have worked hard to improve myself and I have come to a place where I am at peace with myself and the world around me.

I don't need to think that the universe or a tree has to have some meaning to it's existence.

I don't even have to believe my life has meaning to the universe or even to most people in order to be grateful for my short time on in this world.
Thanks for clarifying.

My guess is that you and I have a lot in common w/ our belief systems, but did u notice that you responded w/ one sentence telling me what u DO believe & two sentences describing what you DO NOT believe? My hope is that this was because we're in a convo and u imagined that I wanted to know what you do not believe, but my fear is that you're letting your life be defined in terms of what you're not.

No chance of that is there?
Not really.
Huh, more negativism.

On your positive side you've said "...improve myself and I have come to a place where I am at peace with myself and the world around..." and I can very much tune into that, but one difference I got is my consideration for others. Do u value the existance of others in your reality?
Of course.

That path I walk is one of compassion for all living beings and respect for the natural world and of gratitude that these beings are part of the world of which I am fortunate to be a part of.

I describe the life I am attempting to live as cruelty free.

I don't dwell on what I am not or what i don't believe even if I do make those statements sometimes. The forum here isn't really comparable to real life interactions and I think sometimes nuance gets lost in the literal
whoa, what an amazing day, sorry I'm slow here but I'm back now; at any rate it sounds like we're 100% in agreement on everything so far here.

There seems to be a fuss going on here about "meaning" in things. I've never been too sure about just what that's supposed to be, tho in my experiance everyone seems to think its so important. Like, not only the churches but even the atheist group The Humanists made a big thing about finding "meaning". My take on that is that if it's so important to them then maybe they're thinking of something that I've already solved or they're into something that I haven't gotten to yet, so either way we got a situation where they're ok with it & I'm ok w/o it.

What's ur take?
Most people seek meaning from external sources.

I tend to agree with Buddhists that everything we need to deal with problems and to create meaning for ourselves is already within us.
That's what I was interested in, the idea the Buddhists have of devotion in prayer yet an unwillingness to talk about God Himself beyond the Divinity within ourselves. Truly an honest, realistic, and respectful approach. Of course there are many disciplines (aka denominations) of Buddhism yet the common thread is distinct.

But w/ regard to what we were talking about, if what we got isn't "meaning" imho it'll do until some other "meaning" comes along.
Buddhism is a nontheistic practice. Some Budhhists believe in gods some don't.
there are many Buddhists who'll be willing to say that, and there are also many others who just don't want to go there at all. We need to keep in mind that generally Buddhists pray and depending on which site u look at u get a different story about the nature of Buddhist prayer. That said, again there's a common thread and perhaps a useful quote (from here) might be "
We pray to the whole that gives rise to, and has agency through, the many. We pray that enlightened qualities become our continual way of living, bringing benefit to us and all we encounter.
We're talking about a mysterious yet passionate subject, but (mho) if we let the adhearants speak for themselves (avoiding third party sites where folks talk about what "they" believe) my experiance is that we find a lot of harmony --many paths to the same goodness.
They don't need to go there at all because Buddhism is non theistic
You've said that already and a problem we get into w/ that is that (imho) "non-theistic" is more than a term where we can get a definition, but rather it's more like a concept that we'd have to work out. And we haven't.

There's so much more to Buddhism beyond what it's not. What it is (at the Buddhist Zone) has been listed thus--
  • Reincarnation
  • Karma
  • Meditation
  • The Four Noble Truths
  • Noble Eightfold Path
  • The Five Precepts

--and what I get basically includes consequences of our actions, peace and harmony w/ the cosmos, acquiring of virtues. some kind of existance after an earthly death, the need for prayer and meditation.

howzat?

Not all Buddhists believe in reincarnation as in you live many lives as many forms etc.

Reincarnation as I see it means nothing more than your constituent atoms are recycled
There is no Great Buddha in the sky that made Buddhist Zone the supreme diviner of what Buddhism is. So we can throw out whatever we want. There's a danger that if we throw out too much then I could say that my parakeet is a Buddist. if I want --iow things get way out of hand.

my take is that it's a matter of emphasis, that we focus on what we want & leave others to run off to what they want. If anyone were to engage me in some kind of convo I could respond w/ my thoughts & observations, but they haven't.
Ok, what are your thoughts and observations on suffering and what we were made for (if anything)?

Siddhārtha Gautama was a Hindu reformist. He believed that it had become fettered. Theology, ritual, authority, grace, mystery and tradition are components of religion. He believed they had become overbalanced. Where the form had replaced the meaning. He didn't reject them. He rejected the imbalance. He was a called the rebel child of Hinduism. He asked his followers, "did I ever teach you that God existed?" They said, "no." He asked them, "did I ever teach you that God didn't exist?" They said, "no." He asked them, "did I teach you the world is eternal?" They said, "no." He asked them, "did I teach you the world isn't eternal?" They said, "no." He then asked them, "what have I taught you?" They said, you have taught us suffering and the end of suffering."​
He was a rationalist and a moralist. He taught that people should work out their own salvation with diligence. He was not against Hinduism. He was against the corruption which had entered into Hinduism and wanted to get back to what was important in Hinduism. He believed we crave and cling to impermanent states and things which are incapable of satisfying us. Which is very true. We are free to pursue pleasure, wealth, fame and power but none of those things will satisfy us because we were made for more.​
Interesting and informative.

Something to keep in mind is that Buddhism is old. Six centuries older than Christianity & Christianity is old. As a consequence even though the idea of the Gautama Buddha being a reformer is desirable we not have had a long time for corruption and greed to contaminate Buddhism. Let's be clear that I'm sure not saying "define Buddhism" and certainly not "take over Buddhism". What I am saying is that we're now about ready to look beyond Buddhism.

My take is that the Buddha as u related gave us divine wisdom and that's good; and now there's more.
That description came from Huston Smith and it wasn't meant to be a criticism. That's not his style.

 

Blues Man

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...A mother who lost her baby needs not to know which evil god had done this. She needs to know that god loves her, although such a terrible thing did happen to her...
“Atheism turns out to be too simple. If the whole universe has no meaning, we should never have found out that it has no meaning…” - C.S. Lewis

Modern humanism is the faith that through science humankind can know the truth and still be free. But if Darwin’s theory of natural selection is true, this is impossible. The human mind serves evolutionary success, not truth! – John Gray

Why do you think the universe must have some meaning?

Why can't the universe just be what it is and nothing more?
Maybe we're getting off track here. We like reality. Sure, sometimes bad things happen to good people but that makes reality even more interesting. Where are u on this, are u happy & do u enjoy living?

Of course I enjoy living. I have worked hard to improve myself and I have come to a place where I am at peace with myself and the world around me.

I don't need to think that the universe or a tree has to have some meaning to it's existence.

I don't even have to believe my life has meaning to the universe or even to most people in order to be grateful for my short time on in this world.
Thanks for clarifying.

My guess is that you and I have a lot in common w/ our belief systems, but did u notice that you responded w/ one sentence telling me what u DO believe & two sentences describing what you DO NOT believe? My hope is that this was because we're in a convo and u imagined that I wanted to know what you do not believe, but my fear is that you're letting your life be defined in terms of what you're not.

No chance of that is there?
Not really.
Huh, more negativism.

On your positive side you've said "...improve myself and I have come to a place where I am at peace with myself and the world around..." and I can very much tune into that, but one difference I got is my consideration for others. Do u value the existance of others in your reality?
Of course.

That path I walk is one of compassion for all living beings and respect for the natural world and of gratitude that these beings are part of the world of which I am fortunate to be a part of.

I describe the life I am attempting to live as cruelty free.

I don't dwell on what I am not or what i don't believe even if I do make those statements sometimes. The forum here isn't really comparable to real life interactions and I think sometimes nuance gets lost in the literal
whoa, what an amazing day, sorry I'm slow here but I'm back now; at any rate it sounds like we're 100% in agreement on everything so far here.

There seems to be a fuss going on here about "meaning" in things. I've never been too sure about just what that's supposed to be, tho in my experiance everyone seems to think its so important. Like, not only the churches but even the atheist group The Humanists made a big thing about finding "meaning". My take on that is that if it's so important to them then maybe they're thinking of something that I've already solved or they're into something that I haven't gotten to yet, so either way we got a situation where they're ok with it & I'm ok w/o it.

What's ur take?
Most people seek meaning from external sources.

I tend to agree with Buddhists that everything we need to deal with problems and to create meaning for ourselves is already within us.
That's what I was interested in, the idea the Buddhists have of devotion in prayer yet an unwillingness to talk about God Himself beyond the Divinity within ourselves. Truly an honest, realistic, and respectful approach. Of course there are many disciplines (aka denominations) of Buddhism yet the common thread is distinct.

But w/ regard to what we were talking about, if what we got isn't "meaning" imho it'll do until some other "meaning" comes along.
Buddhism is a nontheistic practice. Some Budhhists believe in gods some don't.
there are many Buddhists who'll be willing to say that, and there are also many others who just don't want to go there at all. We need to keep in mind that generally Buddhists pray and depending on which site u look at u get a different story about the nature of Buddhist prayer. That said, again there's a common thread and perhaps a useful quote (from here) might be "
We pray to the whole that gives rise to, and has agency through, the many. We pray that enlightened qualities become our continual way of living, bringing benefit to us and all we encounter.
We're talking about a mysterious yet passionate subject, but (mho) if we let the adhearants speak for themselves (avoiding third party sites where folks talk about what "they" believe) my experiance is that we find a lot of harmony --many paths to the same goodness.
They don't need to go there at all because Buddhism is non theistic
You've said that already and a problem we get into w/ that is that (imho) "non-theistic" is more than a term where we can get a definition, but rather it's more like a concept that we'd have to work out. And we haven't.

There's so much more to Buddhism beyond what it's not. What it is (at the Buddhist Zone) has been listed thus--
  • Reincarnation
  • Karma
  • Meditation
  • The Four Noble Truths
  • Noble Eightfold Path
  • The Five Precepts

--and what I get basically includes consequences of our actions, peace and harmony w/ the cosmos, acquiring of virtues. some kind of existance after an earthly death, the need for prayer and meditation.

howzat?

Not all Buddhists believe in reincarnation as in you live many lives as many forms etc.

Reincarnation as I see it means nothing more than your constituent atoms are recycled
There is no Great Buddha in the sky that made Buddhist Zone the supreme diviner of what Buddhism is. So we can throw out whatever we want. There's a danger that if we throw out too much then I could say that my parakeet is a Buddist. if I want --iow things get way out of hand.

my take is that it's a matter of emphasis, that we focus on what we want & leave others to run off to what they want. If anyone were to engage me in some kind of convo I could respond w/ my thoughts & observations, but they haven't.
Ok, what are your thoughts and observations on suffering and what we were made for (if anything)?

Siddhārtha Gautama was a Hindu reformist. He believed that it had become fettered. Theology, ritual, authority, grace, mystery and tradition are components of religion. He believed they had become overbalanced. Where the form had replaced the meaning. He didn't reject them. He rejected the imbalance. He was a called the rebel child of Hinduism. He asked his followers, "did I ever teach you that God existed?" They said, "no." He asked them, "did I ever teach you that God didn't exist?" They said, "no." He asked them, "did I teach you the world is eternal?" They said, "no." He asked them, "did I teach you the world isn't eternal?" They said, "no." He then asked them, "what have I taught you?" They said, you have taught us suffering and the end of suffering."​
He was a rationalist and a moralist. He taught that people should work out their own salvation with diligence. He was not against Hinduism. He was against the corruption which had entered into Hinduism and wanted to get back to what was important in Hinduism. He believed we crave and cling to impermanent states and things which are incapable of satisfying us. Which is very true. We are free to pursue pleasure, wealth, fame and power but none of those things will satisfy us because we were made for more.​
Interesting and informative.

Something to keep in mind is that Buddhism is old. Six centuries older than Christianity & Christianity is old. As a consequence even though the idea of the Gautama Buddha being a reformer is desirable we not have had a long time for corruption and greed to contaminate Buddhism. Let's be clear that I'm sure not saying "define Buddhism" and certainly not "take over Buddhism". What I am saying is that we're now about ready to look beyond Buddhism.

My take is that the Buddha as u related gave us divine wisdom and that's good; and now there's more.
Beyond to what?
Life is very very big & there's much to it. A lot's changed since Gautama Buddha came to us, and sure there's an awful lot of important stuff that he shared but imho we are simply not the same kind of animal we were the better part of 3 millennia ago. Of course what he gave us was true & necessary. What I'm saying is that as many have pointed out there's much that's come about since his time that's also true & necessary.

Hey, the universe will last (as we can see it) maybe another 10 or 20 billion years, and life on earth will last only about another one billion years. Long before that the human race will be replaced by a new species of which we're really not in a position to imagine. What I'm saying is that things change.

Eventually we need to move beyond Buddha to new realities, and while many will refuse to go forward and instead insist on living in a mode better suited for thousands of years ago, the rest of us will move ahead.

So while I can tell u what I've gone beyond into, I can't tell u what u need to see.
I don't think people have changed that much. We all still have the same fears and anxieties. We all still deal with both the good and the bad that happens to all people.

So while absolutely in many ways the external world is different from the Buddha's time but there are still large numbers of people still living in squalor and there are still entire populations that are marginalized and there is certainly still suffering So while the external world has changed in some aspects in many others it hasn't. And the internal world of a person I think hasn't changed much at all.

So i still find Buddhism to be very relevant in that the core tenet that a person already has within him everything he needs to find peace, happiness and for lack of a better word enlightenment.
 
Last edited:

ding

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we not have had a long time for corruption and greed to contaminate Buddhism.
That's not how he used the word corruption.

corrupt: change or debase by making errors or unintentional alterations
 

expat_panama

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...A mother who lost her baby needs not to know which evil god had done this. She needs to know that god loves her, although such a terrible thing did happen to her...
“Atheism turns out to be too simple. If the whole universe has no meaning, we should never have found out that it has no meaning…” - C.S. Lewis

Modern humanism is the faith that through science humankind can know the truth and still be free. But if Darwin’s theory of natural selection is true, this is impossible. The human mind serves evolutionary success, not truth! – John Gray

Why do you think the universe must have some meaning?

Why can't the universe just be what it is and nothing more?
Maybe we're getting off track here. We like reality. Sure, sometimes bad things happen to good people but that makes reality even more interesting. Where are u on this, are u happy & do u enjoy living?

Of course I enjoy living. I have worked hard to improve myself and I have come to a place where I am at peace with myself and the world around me.

I don't need to think that the universe or a tree has to have some meaning to it's existence.

I don't even have to believe my life has meaning to the universe or even to most people in order to be grateful for my short time on in this world.
Thanks for clarifying.

My guess is that you and I have a lot in common w/ our belief systems, but did u notice that you responded w/ one sentence telling me what u DO believe & two sentences describing what you DO NOT believe? My hope is that this was because we're in a convo and u imagined that I wanted to know what you do not believe, but my fear is that you're letting your life be defined in terms of what you're not.

No chance of that is there?
Not really.
Huh, more negativism.

On your positive side you've said "...improve myself and I have come to a place where I am at peace with myself and the world around..." and I can very much tune into that, but one difference I got is my consideration for others. Do u value the existance of others in your reality?
Of course.

That path I walk is one of compassion for all living beings and respect for the natural world and of gratitude that these beings are part of the world of which I am fortunate to be a part of.

I describe the life I am attempting to live as cruelty free.

I don't dwell on what I am not or what i don't believe even if I do make those statements sometimes. The forum here isn't really comparable to real life interactions and I think sometimes nuance gets lost in the literal
whoa, what an amazing day, sorry I'm slow here but I'm back now; at any rate it sounds like we're 100% in agreement on everything so far here.

There seems to be a fuss going on here about "meaning" in things. I've never been too sure about just what that's supposed to be, tho in my experiance everyone seems to think its so important. Like, not only the churches but even the atheist group The Humanists made a big thing about finding "meaning". My take on that is that if it's so important to them then maybe they're thinking of something that I've already solved or they're into something that I haven't gotten to yet, so either way we got a situation where they're ok with it & I'm ok w/o it.

What's ur take?
Most people seek meaning from external sources.

I tend to agree with Buddhists that everything we need to deal with problems and to create meaning for ourselves is already within us.
That's what I was interested in, the idea the Buddhists have of devotion in prayer yet an unwillingness to talk about God Himself beyond the Divinity within ourselves. Truly an honest, realistic, and respectful approach. Of course there are many disciplines (aka denominations) of Buddhism yet the common thread is distinct.

But w/ regard to what we were talking about, if what we got isn't "meaning" imho it'll do until some other "meaning" comes along.
Buddhism is a nontheistic practice. Some Budhhists believe in gods some don't.
there are many Buddhists who'll be willing to say that, and there are also many others who just don't want to go there at all. We need to keep in mind that generally Buddhists pray and depending on which site u look at u get a different story about the nature of Buddhist prayer. That said, again there's a common thread and perhaps a useful quote (from here) might be "
We pray to the whole that gives rise to, and has agency through, the many. We pray that enlightened qualities become our continual way of living, bringing benefit to us and all we encounter.
We're talking about a mysterious yet passionate subject, but (mho) if we let the adhearants speak for themselves (avoiding third party sites where folks talk about what "they" believe) my experiance is that we find a lot of harmony --many paths to the same goodness.
They don't need to go there at all because Buddhism is non theistic
You've said that already and a problem we get into w/ that is that (imho) "non-theistic" is more than a term where we can get a definition, but rather it's more like a concept that we'd have to work out. And we haven't.

There's so much more to Buddhism beyond what it's not. What it is (at the Buddhist Zone) has been listed thus--
  • Reincarnation
  • Karma
  • Meditation
  • The Four Noble Truths
  • Noble Eightfold Path
  • The Five Precepts

--and what I get basically includes consequences of our actions, peace and harmony w/ the cosmos, acquiring of virtues. some kind of existance after an earthly death, the need for prayer and meditation.

howzat?

Not all Buddhists believe in reincarnation as in you live many lives as many forms etc.

Reincarnation as I see it means nothing more than your constituent atoms are recycled
There is no Great Buddha in the sky that made Buddhist Zone the supreme diviner of what Buddhism is. So we can throw out whatever we want. There's a danger that if we throw out too much then I could say that my parakeet is a Buddist. if I want --iow things get way out of hand.

my take is that it's a matter of emphasis, that we focus on what we want & leave others to run off to what they want. If anyone were to engage me in some kind of convo I could respond w/ my thoughts & observations, but they haven't.
Ok, what are your thoughts and observations on suffering and what we were made for (if anything)?

Siddhārtha Gautama was a Hindu reformist. He believed that it had become fettered. Theology, ritual, authority, grace, mystery and tradition are components of religion. He believed they had become overbalanced. Where the form had replaced the meaning. He didn't reject them. He rejected the imbalance. He was a called the rebel child of Hinduism. He asked his followers, "did I ever teach you that God existed?" They said, "no." He asked them, "did I ever teach you that God didn't exist?" They said, "no." He asked them, "did I teach you the world is eternal?" They said, "no." He asked them, "did I teach you the world isn't eternal?" They said, "no." He then asked them, "what have I taught you?" They said, you have taught us suffering and the end of suffering."​
He was a rationalist and a moralist. He taught that people should work out their own salvation with diligence. He was not against Hinduism. He was against the corruption which had entered into Hinduism and wanted to get back to what was important in Hinduism. He believed we crave and cling to impermanent states and things which are incapable of satisfying us. Which is very true. We are free to pursue pleasure, wealth, fame and power but none of those things will satisfy us because we were made for more.​
Interesting and informative.

Something to keep in mind is that Buddhism is old. Six centuries older than Christianity & Christianity is old. As a consequence even though the idea of the Gautama Buddha being a reformer is desirable we not have had a long time for corruption and greed to contaminate Buddhism. Let's be clear that I'm sure not saying "define Buddhism" and certainly not "take over Buddhism". What I am saying is that we're now about ready to look beyond Buddhism.

My take is that the Buddha as u related gave us divine wisdom and that's good; and now there's more.
That description came from Huston Smith and it wasn't meant to be a criticism. That's not his style.

No, I thought it was insightful --there may have been typos in my text.
 

expat_panama

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we not have had a long time for corruption and greed to contaminate Buddhism.
That's not how he used the word corruption.

corrupt: change or debase by making errors or unintentional alterations
thx fer seeing past my typos. ok, so corruption can mean many things but the problems are still problems, that's all I meant.
 

cnm

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Debate With Atheists/Leftists is Futile​

I imagine you would deny His Noodliness and it would be futile to discuss the benefits of colanders with you. Atheists like you do not believe in meaty deities.

d606ade23e8b938336c46082773644e5
 

cnm

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Ringtone

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"Go from the presence of a foolish man." - The Holy Bible

What is a foolish man?

"The fool hath said in his heart there is no God. - The Holy Bible

"Answer not a fool according to his folly lest thou be like unto him." - The Holy Bible

No matter what facts, no matter what evidence, what science, what compelling data and research you provide to Leftists/atheists, they will spin it, deny it, trivialize it, and completely refute it. So simply post an opening message for the good of thinking, rational people, and don't respond to lying atheists.
They're not worth your time and effort.

The effort necessary to refute bullshit is an order of magnitude greater than the effort required to produce it. - Brandolini's Law

Further reading:
The Irrational Atheist by Vox Day and Illogical Atheism by Bo Jinn.

Excellent, persuasive books by former militant atheists.

The idea that he is a devotee of reason seeing through the outdated superstitions believed by less intelligent beings is the foremost conceit of the atheist. – page 7

… 72.9 percent of professors polled described the Bible as “an ancient book of fables, legends, history, and moral precepts,” compared to 17.5 percent of the general population. – page 15



… the High Church atheist’s undeveloped social skills are often so dramatic as to be reasonably described as a form of social autism. – page 16

Democrats are more than twice as likely to be someone who has dropped out of high school than to be an individual with a master’s degree. – page 19

Studies have shown that those without religion have life expectancies seven years shorter than the average churchgoer, are more likely to smoke, abuse alcohol and be depressed or obese, and they are much less likely to marry or have children. – page 20 (The Irrational Atheist)

---------------------------------
The atheist consequently finds himself committed to a set of logical contradictions; that he is free, except there is no such thing as freedom; that all men are basically good, though moral good itself is only useful fiction; and finally that his life has meaning in a universe that has none – or at least none that we can possibly know of at any rate. Modern atheism is… an abstract mess.- Line1950

In order to establish an explanation as the best, you do not have to have an explanation for the explanation. [That would necessitate explanations all the way down.] The universe has demonstrated that it requires an explanation. God has not. – 1989

“I just go one god further (in my atheism than do theists).” – Richard Dawkins, who finds this wordplay “an amusing strategy”. This is an example of the “fallacy of pluralism,” which is to say that since multiple representations of the same thing have been suggested, it follows that the very thing itself, therefore, does not exist. – 2019

Contemporary atheism does no resolve in the conclusion that God does not exist as much as it begins with it. – 2270

If the evidence from sociology is not powerful enough, we now have recent studies from the field of psychology which validate the ridiculousness of this fictional psychological pre-disposition to atheism. – 2385
(Illogical Atheism, Kindle Edition)
Logic, the pertinent operative of the Imago Dei, tells mankind that God necessarily exists, but the atheist eschews logic and equates ignorance to humility.
 

BreezeWood

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"Go from the presence of a foolish man." - The Holy Bible

What is a foolish man?

"The fool hath said in his heart there is no God. - The Holy Bible

"Answer not a fool according to his folly lest thou be like unto him." - The Holy Bible

No matter what facts, no matter what evidence, what science, what compelling data and research you provide to Leftists/atheists, they will spin it, deny it, trivialize it, and completely refute it. So simply post an opening message for the good of thinking, rational people, and don't respond to lying atheists.
They're not worth your time and effort.

The effort necessary to refute bullshit is an order of magnitude greater than the effort required to produce it. - Brandolini's Law

Further reading:
The Irrational Atheist by Vox Day and Illogical Atheism by Bo Jinn.

Excellent, persuasive books by former militant atheists.

The idea that he is a devotee of reason seeing through the outdated superstitions believed by less intelligent beings is the foremost conceit of the atheist. – page 7

… 72.9 percent of professors polled described the Bible as “an ancient book of fables, legends, history, and moral precepts,” compared to 17.5 percent of the general population. – page 15



… the High Church atheist’s undeveloped social skills are often so dramatic as to be reasonably described as a form of social autism. – page 16

Democrats are more than twice as likely to be someone who has dropped out of high school than to be an individual with a master’s degree. – page 19

Studies have shown that those without religion have life expectancies seven years shorter than the average churchgoer, are more likely to smoke, abuse alcohol and be depressed or obese, and they are much less likely to marry or have children. – page 20 (The Irrational Atheist)

---------------------------------
The atheist consequently finds himself committed to a set of logical contradictions; that he is free, except there is no such thing as freedom; that all men are basically good, though moral good itself is only useful fiction; and finally that his life has meaning in a universe that has none – or at least none that we can possibly know of at any rate. Modern atheism is… an abstract mess.- Line1950

In order to establish an explanation as the best, you do not have to have an explanation for the explanation. [That would necessitate explanations all the way down.] The universe has demonstrated that it requires an explanation. God has not. – 1989

“I just go one god further (in my atheism than do theists).” – Richard Dawkins, who finds this wordplay “an amusing strategy”. This is an example of the “fallacy of pluralism,” which is to say that since multiple representations of the same thing have been suggested, it follows that the very thing itself, therefore, does not exist. – 2019

Contemporary atheism does no resolve in the conclusion that God does not exist as much as it begins with it. – 2270

If the evidence from sociology is not powerful enough, we now have recent studies from the field of psychology which validate the ridiculousness of this fictional psychological pre-disposition to atheism. – 2385
(Illogical Atheism, Kindle Edition)
Logic, the pertinent operative of the Imago Dei, tells mankind that God necessarily exists, but the atheist eschews logic and equates ignorance to humility.
.
Logic, the pertinent operative of the Imago Dei, tells mankind that God necessarily exists, but the atheist eschews logic and equates ignorance to humility.
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logic is a rues for those that would support the forgeries and fallacies of the desert religions, christianity - do they really believe by persuasion their specific religion by their appeals for honesty are warranted in light of their objections to the uninterrupted historical events those religions represent.
 
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ChemEngineer

ChemEngineer

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Job 26:14 Lo, these are parts of his ways: but how little a portion is heard of him? but the thunder of his power who can understand?

Ecclesiastes 8:17 Then I beheld all the work of God, that a man cannot find out the work that is don under the sun: because though a man labour to seek it out, yet he shall not find it; yea further; though a wise man think to know it, yet shall he not be able to find it.




With all our wisdom, and all our science, and all our research, “who can understand” anything today. Ultimate scientific answers continue to elude us everywhere one looks, from the submicroscopic to the supermacroscopic ! The atheist’s pretense is that all this magnificent science that we see and study arose from nothing, based solely on megatime and megauniverses. Insuperable statistical impossibilities are explained away with clever wordplay and nebulous theories – anything at all to deny the Hand of the Creator so evident to casual observers, of all educational backgrounds, and all nationalities, and all times. That is, except for those who will not see.

Are Atheists Right
 

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