Zone1 Creepy things the (in)famous Luther said

[hadit]

I regret that these are problems you face in the Lutheran church, that people are working so hard they are missing out on the Way Jesus outlined for all. It is not an issue in the Catholic Church. May Luther's own struggles be of help to all of you because I wish you all the best.

I am not a Lutheran. I thought I made that clear long ago. You are guilty of that which you accuse others, lumping all within a convenient group.

 

[notmyfault2020]

There is no fear of works. There is, however, a danger of legalism when someone who is in right relationship with God and who is walking in obedience with God is accused of not being saved because they're not doing the same works someone else is doing. There is a danger of relying on works to make yourself feel more holy or sanctified than someone else. These are, unfortunately, human tendencies to be avoided at all costs. When someone starts to believe that they have it figured out and they are doing everything right because they go to "right" church, wear the "right" clothes and do the "right" things over walking in the light of Christ, they fall into legalism and start to rely on works to save them instead of FIRST keeping their relationship with God alive and well.

well, I have often been in the middle of doing some work for the Lord and.. would have rather spent time just being with the Lord in prayer. But I figure (tell myself) that

I can be with him at some point in the future.. and in the meantime, many good works are in sore need of being done... evangelizing comes to mind first..

 

[Meriweather]

Tell me this, what works did the thief on the cross have to take with him when he entered Paradise? Did he have any certificates of completion, any testimonials from anyone, anything at all? Or did he enter Paradise and say, "He told me I could come in with Him", and that was enough?

This was the Gospel that was read last Sunday for the Feast of Christ the King. In the homily we heard, "This was a man suffering beside Jesus when the other man being crucified demanded Jesus get them off the cross, and apparently in a bullying or jeering manner.

The other thief, despite his own agony, came to Jesus' defense. He testified to everyone that he and the other thief deserved their punishment, but Jesus was not guilty of any crime. Then he showed his respect for Jesus and his mission. He said simply, "Remember me when you come into your kingdom" acknowledging God's kingdom in front of all, and testifying to Jesus' place in the kingdom.

We were asked to consider, How often, when we are deep into our own misery, do we make the effort to become aware of, defend and acknowledge someone else and their troubles.

What about the other thief? He didn't do a thing...was he with Jesus as well? After all, he was very careful not to do anything that would make it seem he was doing works to get into heaven.

 

[hadit]

well, as I have often told protestants: their beliefs are correct insofar as they adhere to Catholic teaching (divorce and remarriage is wrong.. ditto fornication.. ditto abortion and etc..) and wrong insofar as they do not.

There is only one Church. Jesus didn't need thousands. That said, every "church" has good in it if people are sincerely following Jesus to the best of their ability

Ah, the rigidity softens, and there is hope yet. Next you'll be saying that there are true Christians to be found in every denomination that accepts Christ as God in the flesh, crucified and resurrected, the source of our salvation.

 

[Meriweather]

I am not a Lutheran. I thought I made that clear long ago. You are guilty of that which you accuse others, lumping all within a convenient group.

Whatever. I don't try to keep track of the denominations of everyone here. I am sorry that is the problem in your church/denomination, whatever those happen to be. You were defending Luther, which is not a bad thing, but it has been my experience it is usually Lutherans who care about Martin Luther.

 

[hadit]

This was the Gospel that was read last Sunday for the Feast of Christ the King. In the homily we heard, "This was a man suffering beside Jesus when the other man being crucified demanded Jesus get them off the cross, and apparently in a bullying or jeering manner.

The other thief, despite his own agony, came to Jesus' defense. He testified to everyone that he and the other thief deserved their punishment, but Jesus was not guilty of any crime. Then he showed his respect for Jesus and his mission. He said simply, "Remember me when you come into your kingdom" acknowledging God's kingdom in front of all, and testifying to Jesus' place in the kingdom.

We were asked to consider, How often, when we are deep into our own misery, do we make the effort to become aware of, defend and acknowledge someone else and their troubles.

What about the other thief? He didn't do a thing...was he with Jesus as well? After all, he was very careful not to do anything that would make it seem he was doing works to get into heaven.

I do not believe the other thief entered Paradise with Christ, as he did not make a statement of faith.

 

[hadit]

Whatever. I don't try to keep track of the denominations of everyone here. I am sorry that is the problem in your church/denomination, whatever those happen to be. You were defending Luther, which is not a bad thing, but it has been my experience it is usually Lutherans who care about Martin Luther.

Legalism is a problem, as it can take your focus completely off the person you're supposedly doing that works for. When He calls you and says He simply wants to sit and talk with you for a while, but you're too busy "working" to have time for Him, there's a problem. When you allow your works to make you feel holy and righteous instead of it being all from Christ, there's a problem.

 

[hadit]

well, I have often been in the middle of doing some work for the Lord and.. would have rather spent time just being with the Lord in prayer. But I figure (tell myself) that

I can be with him at some point in the future.. and in the meantime, many good works are in sore need of being done... evangelizing comes to mind first..

And when God calls you to step away from working to just spend time with Him, are you going to be Martha or Mary? Remember which one He said had made the better choice. Jesus Himself spent 40 days in the wilderness preparing for ministry in which He was not doing "works", He was spending time with the Father. You can get so wrapped up in doing good that you miss out on God's best.

 

[notmyfault2020]

Ah, the rigidity softens, and there is hope yet. Next you'll be saying that there are true Christians to be found in every denomination that accepts Christ as God in the flesh, crucified and resurrected, the source of our salvation.

how presumptuous!

Did it ever occur to you that i already had that belief/thought (that there is good in all "churches" that follow Jesus to the best of their ability)?

Well, that is indeed the case

you just assumed that it was because of your preaching (or some other protestants' preaching?) that I "changed."

No, I have had that thought virtually all my life, a thought that did not change at any time throughout the decades of learning my Catholic faith.. learning about Vatican II.

So.. no.. your conclusion is not one I am about to take as my own.. (that every denomination... is a reliable source of salvation)

 

[notmyfault2020]

And when God calls you to step away from working to just spend time with Him, are you going to be Martha or Mary? Remember which one He said had made the better choice. Jesus Himself spent 40 days in the wilderness preparing for ministry in which He was not doing "works", He was spending time with the Father. You can get so wrapped up in doing good that you miss out on God's best.

True.. but I play it by ear. Sometimes I feel I need to put down the work and be with God.. When one is troubled, one definitley needs to do that

other times I am just making excuses for not doing work that .. maybe not be too pleasant for me.. just seeking Self rather than obeying Christ..

that is not a good thing

 

[Meriweather]

Legalism is a problem, as it can take your focus completely off the person you're supposedly doing that works for. When He calls you and says He simply wants to sit and talk with you for a while, but you're too busy "working" to have time for Him, there's a problem. When you allow instead of it being all from Christ, there's a problem.

I don't know whether to laugh or cry! Your church is worried about "legalism" and go around searching yours and others' lives for potential legalisms? Never heard of "legalism" in Church, but apparently it distresses other Christian denominations to the point they worry about "working"? They worry they might not have time for prayer, to sit and talk with God? To reflect and meditate? Oh that's right. Non-Catholic Christians don't believe in reflecting and meditating over Christ's life. They go nuts when they see a Catholic with a rosary in their meditations and reflections on the life of Christ.

Catholics pray, talk, meditate, reflect, and when refreshed and renewed, often end with, "Here I am, Lord. Send me." You see, one of our hymns about being the Body of Christ ends with this verse....

On the rock of Peter, see my Church I build.
Come receive my spirit, with my gifts be filled.
For you are my body, you're my hands and feet.
Speak my word of life to everyone you meet.

While your church might teach "your works make you feel holy and righteous" my church teaches we are merely unworthy servants who have done only their duty.

 

[notmyfault2020]

While your church might teach "your works make you feel holy and righteous" my church teaches we are merely unworthy servants who have done only their duty.

one of your best posts

And there is actually a Scrpture that says this, that when we are done working, we say that we only did what we were obligated to do..

 

[hadit]

I don't know whether to laugh or cry! Your church is worried about "legalism" and go around searching yours and others' lives for potential legalisms? Never heard of "legalism" in Church, but apparently it distresses other Christian denominations to the point they worry about "working"? They worry they might not have time for prayer, to sit and talk with God? To reflect and meditate? Oh that's right. Non-Catholic Christians don't believe in reflecting and meditating over Christ's life. They go nuts when they see a Catholic with a rosary in their meditations and reflections on the life of Christ.

Catholics pray, talk, meditate, reflect, and when refreshed and renewed, often end with, "Here I am, Lord. Send me." You see, one of our hymns about being the Body of Christ ends with this verse....

On the rock of Peter, see my Church I build.
Come receive my spirit, with my gifts be filled.
For you are my body, you're my hands and feet.
Speak my word of life to everyone you meet.

While your church might teach "your works make you feel holy and righteous" my church teaches we are merely unworthy servants who have done only their duty.

Dude, I believe you are being deliberately obtuse regarding legalism. Legalism is a problem when obeying laws or man-made rules becomes a substitute for a relationship with God. Do you not understand that? I don't think so, because of your hyperbolic nonsense about what you think I believe.

Oh, and by the way, that Rock that Christ built His Church on wasn't Peter himself, it was Peter's declaration of who Jesus is. Consider that the early church certainly did not consider Peter to be an infallible pope, because He and Paul argued over doctrine, and Peter lost the argument.

 

[hadit]

True.. but I play it by ear. Sometimes I feel I need to put down the work and be with God.. When one is troubled, one definitley needs to do that

other times I am just making excuses for not doing work that .. maybe not be too pleasant for me.. just seeking Self rather than obeying Christ..

that is not a good thing

And if you are in tune with God, He will reveal it to you that you need to get up off your butt and do what He's calling you to do.

 

[hadit]

how presumptuous!

Did it ever occur to you that i already had that belief/thought (that there is good in all "churches" that follow Jesus to the best of their ability)?

Well, that is indeed the case

you just assumed that it was because of your preaching (or some other protestants' preaching?) that I "changed."

No, I have had that thought virtually all my life, a thought that did not change at any time throughout the decades of learning my Catholic faith.. learning about Vatican II.

So.. no.. your conclusion is not one I am about to take as my own.. (that every denomination... is a reliable source of salvation)

As long as you're not out there preaching that "true" Christians are found only in the CC. Heck, you'll even find them in Lutheran Churches. You know, the guys that follow Martin Luther.

 

[Meriweather]

Dude, I believe you are being deliberately obtuse regarding legalism. Legalism is a problem when obeying laws or man-made rules becomes a substitute for a relationship with God. Do you not understand that? I don't think so, because of your hyperbolic nonsense about what you think I believe.

Never--and I mean never--has this ever come up in my life or any of the Catholic churches I have attended. Think about it. Do you worry about legalism in any other relationship you have? There is no 'deliberately' about it. I am totally ignorant of such a problem, which may or may not make me obtuse.

I am trying to understand why legalism is an issue with non-Catholic Christians.

 

[Meriweather]

Oh, and by the way, that Rock that Christ built His Church on wasn't Peter himself, it was Peter's declaration of who Jesus is. Consider that the early church certainly did not consider Peter to be an infallible pope, because He and Paul argued over doctrine, and Peter lost the argument.

Sigh. For over the hundredth time. That is not what 'infallible means' when it comes to the Pope. There have only been two "infallible" issue in the history of the Church.

Do you understand what giving keys to an underling meant in those times? If you don't want to claim Peter as the church's first leader following Christ, then don't. Doesn't bother me in the least. Catholics see Peter as an integral part of the Body of Christ and our Family Tree and are proud to do so.

I doubt that Peter minds if some denominations ask him to move to a lower place around the table.

 

[hadit]

Never--and I mean never--has this ever come up in my life or any of the Catholic churches I have attended. Think about it. Do you worry about legalism in any other relationship you have? There is no 'deliberately' about it. I am totally ignorant of such a problem, which may or may not make me obtuse.

I am trying to understand why legalism is an issue with non-Catholic Christians.

First, do you even understand what legalism is? Maybe they never talk about it in any of the churches you've been in because they embrace it too much. What role does the Holy Spirit play in your everyday life?

 

[hadit]

Sigh. For over the hundredth time. That is not what 'infallible means' when it comes to the Pope. There have only been two "infallible" issue in the history of the Church.

Do you understand what giving keys to an underling meant in those times? If you don't want to claim Peter as the church's first leader following Christ, then don't. Doesn't bother me in the least. Catholics see Peter as an integral part of the Body of Christ and our Family Tree and are proud to do so.

I doubt that Peter minds if some denominations ask him to move to a lower place around the table.

What lower place? He is among the original apostles and a close disciple of Christ. There was no single leader of the Early Church, the disciples of Christ that were empowered by the Holy Spirit on Pentecost were all considered the head leaders.

 

[Meriweather]

First, do you even understand what legalism is? Maybe they never talk about it in any of the churches you've been in because they embrace it too much. What role does the Holy Spirit play in your everyday life?

My experience with the Holy Spirit, God in His entirety, is that He is infused in every aspect of everyday life. It is a matter of having Director, Co-worker, Teammate, Friend with me throughout the day, always remembering that while God is like all I mentioned to me, He is still the Supreme Being who holds the universe in the palm of His hand like we can hold a handful of pebbles. I see it as God working with and within me, with me in the way I work with a small animal who has only a bit of understanding of who I am and what I am about.

To my mind, there is nothing "legal" about any of this. In your mind, every step I take throughout the day must be all legalism. Quite different perspectives, I'm thinking.