Zone1 Creepy things the (in)famous Luther said

[hadit]

Who says salvation has to be earned? It is a false accusation by non-Catholic Christians directed at Catholics. It makes no sense, so the Church pays no attention to it.

Then why the angst when Martin Luther said that salvation comes only through faith? What more is needed?

 

[Meriweather]

Once we have that saving faith, then, we are to show the fruit of the Spirit

Or else, what?

 

[hadit]

Or else, what?

From John 15, in Jesus' words:

1 “I am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener. 2 He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit, while every branch that does bear fruit he prunes[a] so that it will be even more fruitful. 3 You are already clean because of the word I have spoken to you. 4 Remain in me, as I also remain in you. No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine. Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me.

5 “I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. 6 If you do not remain in me, you are like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned.

Salvation is a free gift, but the responsibility of the saved is to nurture that gift, keep it growing, and bring glory to God by bearing the fruit of the Spirit in their lives. I am not a proponent of the "once saved, always saved" creed that allows someone to claim they are saved in Christ, then rebel against God at every opportunity for the rest of their lives. If a person is saved, they will act like they are. Notice that Jesus did not say we had to work, strive and struggle to bear fruit, we need to REMAIN in Him and we WILL bear much fruit. Just like salvation comes through faith and not works, fruit comes from keeping alive the relationship with Him, not from works.

Works are the RESULT of salvation, not the CAUSE.

 

[Meriweather]

Then why the angst when Martin Luther said that salvation comes only through faith? What more is needed?

Paul suggests that we work out our own salvation with fear and trembling. James suggests showing people who have faith without deeds, to show them faith with deeds.

As I noted before, Martin Luther had a hard life until he had his own "Ah, ha!" moment with what both Church and Scripture had laid before him all along. Martin Luther's had focused his entire life on works alone. Once he realized what was missing, he ran to other far end of the spectrum, faith/grace alone. Given enough time, he may have found the balance that most already--and always--had.

I have great sympathy and compassion for Martin Luther. A wounded child grew into a wounded man. In many ways, he was too easily influenced. He had a valuable message in telling people don't become so overwhelmed with (and by) deeds, you overlook the gift. Given enough time, he probably would have also said, "Don't spend so much time gift gazing, that you forget there is also God's will (work) to discern and be done. Remember the Prophets' words: Here I am, Lord. Send me. I come to do Your will.

 

[Meriweather]

Notice that Jesus did not say we had to work, strive and struggle to bear fruit, we need to REMAIN in Him and we WILL bear much fruit.

And in other places we said we are to discern the will of God and follow it. Can we bear good fruit without doing the will of God? By doing nothing?

 

[Meriweather]

Works are the RESULT of salvation, not the CAUSE.

Works are neither the result nor the cause of salvation. We are commanded to do works and to keep the attitude of, "We are unworthy servants who have only done what was our duty." We have obligations we are expected to fulfill.

No one should overlook the Parable of the Talents, either, where the servant who did not produce more was dismissed and he lost all that he had.

A rough way of putting it is that we are given/bestowed salvation/redemption/faith and now must work to retain it. Shrug. Works have always been part and parcel of the deal. Luther understood that, but there was a time he lost sight of the great gift of grace that is not only at the root, but showers continual blessings upon our work.

 

[hadit]

Paul suggests that we work out our own salvation with fear and trembling. James suggests showing people who have faith without deeds, to show them faith with deeds.

As I noted before, Martin Luther had a hard life until he had his own "Ah, ha!" moment with what both Church and Scripture had laid before him all along. Martin Luther's had focused his entire life on works alone. Once he realized what was missing, he ran to other far end of the spectrum, faith/grace alone. Given enough time, he may have found the balance that most already--and always--had.

I have great sympathy and compassion for Martin Luther. A wounded child grew into a wounded man. In many ways, he was too easily influenced. He had a valuable message in telling people don't become so overwhelmed with (and by) deeds, you overlook the gift. Given enough time, he probably would have also said, "Don't spend so much time gift gazing, that you forget there is also God's will (work) to discern and be done. Remember the Prophets' words: Here I am, Lord. Send me. I come to do Your will.

My stance, and I believe it to be supported by Scripture, is that salvation itself is a totally unearned and completely free gift. I've cited the thief on the cross as an example. He had nothing except a barebones confession of faith in Jesus, who graciously took him to Paradise. I also believe that, once saved, we have a responsibility to act like we are saved.

Think of it this way, if I went to my wife on my wedding day and said, "Give me a list of 10 things that I must do in order to make you happy. I will spend my entire life trying to find ways to get around them, I'll re-interpret them in ways pleasing to myself, or I will outright ignore them, but I will claim that I am following them and you will then have to treat me like your husband". Wouldn't go over very well, would it? If, OTOH, I married my wife and spent the rest of my life watching her, learning what she liked and disliked, making sure I always treated her with love and respect, especially out in public, I wouldn't need a list, would I? I would be acting like a great husband, both in public and in private. No one would have to guess that I was married to my wife, because my life would scream it in everything I do.

Faith without works is dead, because faith CAUSES works. You've seen people in love, and you can instantly tell they are in love because of the way they look at each other, touch each other, talk to and about each other. Those ACTIONS are inspired by the relationship they have with each other. If the husband, for example, claimed he loves his wife but spent every moment talking her down, scowling at her angrily, and ignoring everything she liked to get what he wanted, you wouldn't believe him, right? His love would be dead. He might be in a marriage, but it could be over soon. It is the same with faith. I cannot earn salvation, but if I am saved, there will be evidence of it in my life.

 

[hadit]

And in other places we said we are to discern the will of God and follow it. Can we bear good fruit without doing the will of God? By doing nothing?

I've addressed this previously but consider this. If I love God with an all-consuming love and am grateful for the salvation He gives me, how do you think I will act? I will read through the Scriptures, looking to find ways to please Him. I will find out that He wants me to take care of the poor, the hungry, and the sick. I will find out that He wants me to be faithful to my wife and treat her with love and respect. I will find out that he wants me to purge myself of hate and bitterness and throw off anything that gets between me and Him. The fruit of Spirit is all about our character and the changes He brings to us internally. The fruit of good works comes because we are in love with Him.

Think of it this way, how am I going to act towards my fellow man when God pours His love into my heart? Am I going to continue being selfish and living for myself, or am I going to open my heart and pour out the love I have received, especially after I've learned what pleases Him?

 

[Meriweather]

My stance, and I believe it to be supported by Scripture, is that salvation itself is a totally unearned and completely free gift.

Life is a free gift, totally unearned, a completely free gift.

Replace "Life" with "Salvation/Redemption". Life and salvation is where we start, the gifts that are freely given to all. The work for these do not come before, we do not need to do a thing to receive them. The work comes after--and is expected--even commanded--in both life and in salvation/redemption.

 

[Meriweather]

Think of it this way, how am I going to act towards my fellow man when God pours His love into my heart? Am I going to continue being selfish and living for myself, or am I going to open my heart and pour out the love I have received, especially after I've learned what pleases Him?

I do think of it that way and see how work is tied to salvation/redemption. Without work, faith and salvation--even life--are in danger.

Why the fear of work? Here is how I have heard Catholic clergy put it: All the work we do in the world can never put God in our debt. God does not owe us a thing, and everything that comes from Him is a gift--perhaps especially the work we are given to do.

In other words, when we wake up in the morning, it is not because God owes us, it is because we received a gift. The same with salvation/redemption. I do not understand why this is so hard for non-Catholics to understand. I could pick up some stray piece of litter and put it in the trash, and some non-Catholic would say, "Picking up that piece of trash won't earn your way to heaven." Catholics don't do anything to earn our way to heaven. We do it because it is the right thing to do, and we, the unworthy servants, are merely doing our duty.

 

[notmyfault2020]

Then why the angst when Martin Luther said that salvation comes only through faith? What more is needed?

Luther was wrong

see James 2:12

about those who have faith but not works..

 

[notmyfault2020]

Paul suggests that we work out our own salvation with fear and trembling. James suggests showing people who have faith without deeds, to show them faith with deeds.

As I noted before, Martin Luther had a hard life until he had his own "Ah, ha!" moment with what both Church and Scripture had laid before him all along. Martin Luther's had focused his entire life on works alone. Once he realized what was missing, he ran to other far end of the spectrum, faith/grace alone. Given enough time, he may have found the balance that most already--and always--had.

I have great sympathy and compassion for Martin Luther. A wounded child grew into a wounded man. In many ways, he was too easily influenced. He had a valuable message in telling people don't become so overwhelmed with (and by) deeds, you overlook the gift. Given enough time, he probably would have also said, "Don't spend so much time gift gazing, that you forget there is also God's will (work) to discern and be done. Remember the Prophets' words: Here I am, Lord. Send me. I come to do Your will.

check out the book The Facts About Luther -- then you may not be so... um... understanding of Luther

 

[notmyfault2020]

My stance, and I believe it to be supported by Scripture, is that salvation itself is a totally unearned and completely free gift.

But people lose gifts all the time.

Someone once gave me the most beautiful rosary.. Somehow I lost it.. and I didn't even sin to lose it.. unless being absent minded is a sin, in which case, I'm toast

 

[hadit]

Luther was wrong

see James 2:12

about those who have faith but not works..

I've already dealt with this. The works follow salvation as a natural result. Salvation has already been given, the works are the evidence thereof. Luther was correct.

 

[hadit]

But people lose gifts all the time.

Someone once gave me the most beautiful rosary.. Somehow I lost it.. and I didn't even sin to lose it.. unless being absent minded is a sin, in which case, I'm toast

And I believe you can lose your salvation as well. Being saved does not remove your freedom of choice and you can still turn your back on God. Not accidentally, but deliberately.

 

[hadit]

I do think of it that way and see how work is tied to salvation/redemption. Without work, faith and salvation--even life--are in danger.

Why the fear of work? Here is how I have heard Catholic clergy put it: All the work we do in the world can never put God in our debt. God does not owe us a thing, and everything that comes from Him is a gift--perhaps especially the work we are given to do.

In other words, when we wake up in the morning, it is not because God owes us, it is because we received a gift. The same with salvation/redemption. I do not understand why this is so hard for non-Catholics to understand. I could pick up some stray piece of litter and put it in the trash, and some non-Catholic would say, "Picking up that piece of trash won't earn your way to heaven." Catholics don't do anything to earn our way to heaven. We do it because it is the right thing to do, and we, the unworthy servants, are merely doing our duty.

There is no fear of works. There is, however, a danger of legalism when someone who is in right relationship with God and who is walking in obedience with God is accused of not being saved because they're not doing the same works someone else is doing. There is a danger of relying on works to make yourself feel more holy or sanctified than someone else. These are, unfortunately, human tendencies to be avoided at all costs. When someone starts to believe that they have it figured out and they are doing everything right because they go to "right" church, wear the "right" clothes and do the "right" things over walking in the light of Christ, they fall into legalism and start to rely on works to save them instead of FIRST keeping their relationship with God alive and well.

 

[Meriweather]

There is no fear of works. There is, however, a danger of legalism when someone who is in right relationship with God and who is walking in obedience with God is accused of not being saved because they're not doing the same works someone else is doing. There is a danger of relying on works to make yourself feel more holy or sanctified than someone else. These are, unfortunately, human tendencies to be avoided at all costs. When someone starts to believe that they have it figured out and they are doing everything right because they go to "right" church, wear the "right" clothes and do the "right" things over walking in the light of Christ, they fall into legalism and start to rely on works to save them instead of FIRST keeping their relationship with God alive and well.

Then I am sorry non-Catholic Christians live with this fear. It, too, is groundless.

 

[hadit]

Then I am sorry non-Catholic Christians live with this fear. It, too, is groundless.

Legalism is a very real problem. It is when you rely on works to make you holy and you forget all about the person you're doing the works for in the first place. You can have all the works in the world and miss out on what Jesus actually wants to share with you, as Mary and Martha found out. Works don't do anything to save you, they're the evidence of your salvation, the proof of your faith, but faith is all that's required for salvation.

Tell me this, what works did the thief on the cross have to take with him when he entered Paradise? Did he have any certificates of completion, any testimonials from anyone, anything at all? Or did he enter Paradise and say, "He told me I could come in with Him", and that was enough?

 

[Meriweather]

Legalism is a very real problem. It is when you rely on works to make you holy and you forget all about the person you're doing the works for in the first place. You can have all the works in the world and miss out on what Jesus actually wants to share with you, as Mary and Martha found out. Works don't do anything to save you, they're the evidence of your salvation, the proof of your faith, but faith is all that's required for salvation.

I regret that these are problems you face in the Lutheran church, that people are working so hard they are missing out on the Way Jesus outlined for all. It is not an issue in the Catholic Church. May Luther's own struggles be of help to all of you because I wish you all the best.

 

[notmyfault2020]

And I believe you can lose your salvation as well. Being saved does not remove your freedom of choice and you can still turn your back on God. Not accidentally, but deliberately.

well, as I have often told protestants: their beliefs are correct insofar as they adhere to Catholic teaching (divorce and remarriage is wrong.. ditto fornication.. ditto abortion and etc..) and wrong insofar as they do not.

There is only one Church. Jesus didn't need thousands. That said, every "church" has good in it if people are sincerely following Jesus to the best of their ability