Could Ukraine standoff have been avoided by Obama?

[Kevin_Kennedy]

What happens when the United States government participates meaningfully in toppling foreign governments in the name of spreading democracy? That behavior usually results in unintended consequences and often produces disasters.

...

When the Ukraine government needed cash and Russia offered it a better deal than the European Union, our imperial diplomats and lawless intelligence gurus were embarrassed. So, the U.S. fomented another revolution in the streets of Kiev. One of our diplomats, Victoria Nuland, acknowledged as much in a tapped and taped (complete with expletives) and eventually viral cellphone conversation. Then, Viktor Yanukovich, the popularly and lawfully elected Ukraine president, was toppled and fled to Moscow. The new unelected Ukraine president has received American recognition and help. Earlier this week, the U.S. offered him $1 billion in immediate cash.

Enter Vladimir Putin. He is the popularly elected president of Russia who has designs on reconstituting the old Soviet Union. Putin is also an ex-KGB agent; he is a torturer, a murderer, a tyrant and a monster. He often has lamented the demise of the former Soviet Union. Ukraine was a part of that union until the evil empire dissolved in 1991. It was the most economically productive part of that union. Today it enjoys a mostly free market and is highly entrepreneurial, though partly a welfare state. Roughly two-thirds of Ukraine identifies with Europe and one-third with Russia.

Monster Putin -- Could Ukraine standoff have been avoided by Obama? | Fox News

In other words, if the western powers, U.S. and E.U., had not meddled in the Ukraine to begin with, by undermining the existing government and essentially recognizing the rebels, then this entire fiasco could have been avoided. Of course Putin was going to react to his puppet government being thrown out and replaced by a U.S.-E.U. puppet government so close to Russian borders. It was an obvious provocation by the west.

 

[waltky]

Granny says Putin put `em up to it...

PRO-RUSSIAN FORCES STORM UKRAINIAN BASE IN CRIMEA
Mar 22,`14 -- Ukraine's armed forces took what may prove to be one of their final stands Saturday in Crimea, as pro-Russian forces stormed and seized control of an air force base amid a barrage of gunfire and explosions.

A tense blockade of the Belbek air base base that has endured for more than a week looked set for an inevitable culmination following the seizure of one Ukrainian-held military facility after another in recent days. It was the last major Ukrainian military facility in Crimea to fall into the hands of pro-Russian forces. The Ukrainian Defense Ministry hasn't provided details of how many bases it still controls on the peninsula. Crimea residents voted last week to secede from Ukraine and join Russia - a process that was formalized this week with the blessing of President Vladimir Putin. The vote, which was held under condition akin to martial law under the gaze of apparently Moscow-led militia forces, has been rejected as illegitimate by the international community.

The assault on the Belbek base mirrored events at other Ukrainian-held military facilities on the peninsula in recent days. In footage provided by the Ukrainian Defense ministry, a Russian-made BTR-80 armored personnel carrier could be seen smashing open a front gate at Belbek, a base across the bay from the port city of Sevastopol. APCs crashed through walls at two other locations and were followed by armed personnel, who advanced in crouching position as they secured the area. Four BTR-80s were involved in the assault, Ukrainian officials said. Ukrainian troops offered no resistance. Later, a separate motley group arrived at the scene. The crowd appeared to be made up of professional soldiers, members of a recently-formed militia unit and Cossacks.

The cause of the explosions wasn't immediately clear, although Ukrainian officials said they were stun grenades used to disperse any potential resistance. Two ambulances arrived and then departed shortly after. Ukraine's Defense Ministry said one reporter and a Ukrainian soldier were injured in the raid. After the takeover, Belbek base commander Col. Yuliy Mamchur called together his men, who sang the Ukrainian national anthem and then stood at ease. He then told his men to put their weapons in the base's armory. A few hours before, Mamchur attended a wedding between two lieutenants serving at Belbek. Soldiers drank champagne and toasted the couple, despite the looming threat of a raid on the base.

Earlier, a crowd stormed the Novofedorivka base, about 50 kilometers (30 miles) west of Crimea's capital, Simferopol, Ukraine's Defense Ministry said. Ukrainian television station TSN said troops inside the base hurled smoke grenades in an attempt to disperse groups of burly young men attempting to break through the front gates. There were conflicting reports about whether the base was eventually taken over. The Russian Defense Ministry says that as of late Friday, less than 2,000 of 18,000 Ukrainian servicemen in Crimea had "expressed a desire to leave for Ukraine." The ministry, however, stopped short of saying the remainder of the troops would serve in the Russian army.

MORE

See also:

RUSSIAN LAWMAKERS SEAL ANNEXATION OF CRIMEA
Mar 20,`14 -- The Russian parliament's lower house has given its near-unanimous approval to the country's annexation of Crimea, ignoring threats from Western powers of more sanctions.

The Kremlin-controlled State Duma voted 445-1 Thursday to make Crimea a part of Russia following a quick discussion in which members assailed the Ukrainian authorities. The vote came as UN Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon arrived in Moscow for a meeting with President Vladimir Putin. "I'm deeply concerned about the current situation," Ban said at the start of the talks. The incorporation of Crimea into Russia needs to be rubber-stamped by the upper house and receive a final endorsement by Putin, formalities expected to be completed by the end of the week.

During Thursday's debate, senior lawmakers spoke of the need to protect Russian speakers elsewhere in Ukraine from radical Ukrainian nationalists, statements that could fuel fears of Russian invasion. "They don't understand in Washington that entire territories will flee as Crimea did if such outrage continues," said Vladimir Vasilyev, the leader of the dominant United Russia faction.

Though Putin, who signed the treaty for Crimea to join Russia earlier this week, said he's not seeking a division of Ukraine, he insisted that the country can "use all means" to protect Russian speakers. He also made his view clear that he sees Ukraine as an artificial state carved up by the Soviet government to include some of Russia's historic lands. Russia has been arguing for broad autonomy for Ukraine's regions that would turn the nation into a federation, and guarantees of Ukraine's neutral status to prevent its membership in NATO.

Thursday's vote follows Crimea's referendum Sunday, which was held just two weeks after Russian forces effectively took over the strategic Black Sea peninsula. The United States and the European Union have responded by slapping some limited sanctions on Russia. Ilya Ponomarev, an opposition lawmaker who was the only Duma member who voted against, said in his blog that Russia behaved like a "banal aggressor" and made a grave mistake by annexing Crimea.

http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/storie...ME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT&CTIME=2014-03-20-11-14-20

 

[Vikrant]

It could have been avoided for sure. It seems like G8 (minus Russia) counted on the fact that Russians would do anything if they were threatened to be kicked out of G8. That does not seem to be the case.

---

Russia is not clinging to the G8 format, as all major world problems can be discussed at other international venues such as G20, Russia’s Foreign Minister Sergey Lavrov has said.

“The G8 is an informal club, no one gives out membership cards and no one can expel members,” Lavrov told a media conference at the Hague. “If our Western partners believe that this format has exhausted itself, let it be. We are not clinging to it.”

He went on to say that many believe that the G8 has already fulfilled its mission as many issues are now discussed at the G20 forum.

“Generally speaking, there are also other formats for considering many questions, including the UN Security Council, the Middle East Quartet and the P5+1 on the Iranian nuclear problem,” Lavrov told journalists.

The Minister also commented on earlier reports regarding Australia considering not inviting President Vladimir Putin to the November G20 meeting, which is going to be held in Brisbane.

“The G20 was not established by Australia, which voiced the proposal not to invite Russia to the meeting. We created the format all together,” Lavrov said.

Meanwhile, G7 leaders – Canada, France, Germany, Italy, Japan, the UK and the US – are also holding a gathering at The Hague. According to the media, the Ukraine issue is high on the agenda.

Russia’s top diplomat is in the Netherlands, where representatives of over 50 states and chiefs of the UN, the EU, the International Atomic Energy Agency and the European Police Office have gathered for the Nuclear Security Summit to address the threat of nuclear terrorism.

On the sidelines of the gathering, Lavrov met with US Secretary of State John Kerry and yet again discussed the Ukraine question, which has caused quite a chill in relations between the two powers.

...

http://rt.com/news/lavrov-g8-crimea-kerry-933/

 

[Kevin_Kennedy]

It could have been avoided for sure. It seems like G8 (minus Russia) counted on the fact that Russians would do anything if they were threatened to be kicked out of G8. That does not seem to be the case.

---

Russia is not clinging to the G8 format, as all major world problems can be discussed at other international venues such as G20, Russia’s Foreign Minister Sergey Lavrov has said.

“The G8 is an informal club, no one gives out membership cards and no one can expel members,” Lavrov told a media conference at the Hague. “If our Western partners believe that this format has exhausted itself, let it be. We are not clinging to it.”

He went on to say that many believe that the G8 has already fulfilled its mission as many issues are now discussed at the G20 forum.

“Generally speaking, there are also other formats for considering many questions, including the UN Security Council, the Middle East Quartet and the P5+1 on the Iranian nuclear problem,” Lavrov told journalists.

The Minister also commented on earlier reports regarding Australia considering not inviting President Vladimir Putin to the November G20 meeting, which is going to be held in Brisbane.

“The G20 was not established by Australia, which voiced the proposal not to invite Russia to the meeting. We created the format all together,” Lavrov said.

Meanwhile, G7 leaders – Canada, France, Germany, Italy, Japan, the UK and the US – are also holding a gathering at The Hague. According to the media, the Ukraine issue is high on the agenda.

Russia’s top diplomat is in the Netherlands, where representatives of over 50 states and chiefs of the UN, the EU, the International Atomic Energy Agency and the European Police Office have gathered for the Nuclear Security Summit to address the threat of nuclear terrorism.

On the sidelines of the gathering, Lavrov met with US Secretary of State John Kerry and yet again discussed the Ukraine question, which has caused quite a chill in relations between the two powers.

...

http://rt.com/news/lavrov-g8-crimea-kerry-933/

I don't see kicking Russia out of the G8 as being intended to do anything to Russia, but rather to make western countries look tough in their dealings with Russia.

 

[Sallow]

It could have been avoided for sure. It seems like G8 (minus Russia) counted on the fact that Russians would do anything if they were threatened to be kicked out of G8. That does not seem to be the case.

---

Russia is not clinging to the G8 format, as all major world problems can be discussed at other international venues such as G20, Russia’s Foreign Minister Sergey Lavrov has said.

“The G8 is an informal club, no one gives out membership cards and no one can expel members,” Lavrov told a media conference at the Hague. “If our Western partners believe that this format has exhausted itself, let it be. We are not clinging to it.”

He went on to say that many believe that the G8 has already fulfilled its mission as many issues are now discussed at the G20 forum.

“Generally speaking, there are also other formats for considering many questions, including the UN Security Council, the Middle East Quartet and the P5+1 on the Iranian nuclear problem,” Lavrov told journalists.

The Minister also commented on earlier reports regarding Australia considering not inviting President Vladimir Putin to the November G20 meeting, which is going to be held in Brisbane.

“The G20 was not established by Australia, which voiced the proposal not to invite Russia to the meeting. We created the format all together,” Lavrov said.

Meanwhile, G7 leaders – Canada, France, Germany, Italy, Japan, the UK and the US – are also holding a gathering at The Hague. According to the media, the Ukraine issue is high on the agenda.

Russia’s top diplomat is in the Netherlands, where representatives of over 50 states and chiefs of the UN, the EU, the International Atomic Energy Agency and the European Police Office have gathered for the Nuclear Security Summit to address the threat of nuclear terrorism.

On the sidelines of the gathering, Lavrov met with US Secretary of State John Kerry and yet again discussed the Ukraine question, which has caused quite a chill in relations between the two powers.

...

http://rt.com/news/lavrov-g8-crimea-kerry-933/

I don't see kicking Russia out of the G8 as being intended to do anything to Russia, but rather to make western countries look tough in their dealings with Russia.

You don't understand how the world economy works then..

 

[Sallow]

What happens when the United States government participates meaningfully in toppling foreign governments in the name of spreading democracy? That behavior usually results in unintended consequences and often produces disasters.

...

When the Ukraine government needed cash and Russia offered it a better deal than the European Union, our imperial diplomats and lawless intelligence gurus were embarrassed. So, the U.S. fomented another revolution in the streets of Kiev. One of our diplomats, Victoria Nuland, acknowledged as much in a tapped and taped (complete with expletives) and eventually viral cellphone conversation. Then, Viktor Yanukovich, the popularly and lawfully elected Ukraine president, was toppled and fled to Moscow. The new unelected Ukraine president has received American recognition and help. Earlier this week, the U.S. offered him $1 billion in immediate cash.

Enter Vladimir Putin. He is the popularly elected president of Russia who has designs on reconstituting the old Soviet Union. Putin is also an ex-KGB agent; he is a torturer, a murderer, a tyrant and a monster. He often has lamented the demise of the former Soviet Union. Ukraine was a part of that union until the evil empire dissolved in 1991. It was the most economically productive part of that union. Today it enjoys a mostly free market and is highly entrepreneurial, though partly a welfare state. Roughly two-thirds of Ukraine identifies with Europe and one-third with Russia.

Monster Putin -- Could Ukraine standoff have been avoided by Obama? | Fox News

In other words, if the western powers, U.S. and E.U., had not meddled in the Ukraine to begin with, by undermining the existing government and essentially recognizing the rebels, then this entire fiasco could have been avoided. Of course Putin was going to react to his puppet government being thrown out and replaced by a U.S.-E.U. puppet government so close to Russian borders. It was an obvious provocation by the west.

Viktor Yanukovich was a Russian puppet, as evidenced when he fled to Russia. He was jailing opposition leaders and governing like a dictator. Which is why there was an uprising.

 

[Politico]

No. His weak foreign policy had been in place for years. No way he could have suddenly fixed it.

 

[Kevin_Kennedy]

It could have been avoided for sure. It seems like G8 (minus Russia) counted on the fact that Russians would do anything if they were threatened to be kicked out of G8. That does not seem to be the case.



---



Russia is not clinging to the G8 format, as all major world problems can be discussed at other international venues such as G20, Russia’s Foreign Minister Sergey Lavrov has said.



“The G8 is an informal club, no one gives out membership cards and no one can expel members,” Lavrov told a media conference at the Hague. “If our Western partners believe that this format has exhausted itself, let it be. We are not clinging to it.”



He went on to say that many believe that the G8 has already fulfilled its mission as many issues are now discussed at the G20 forum.



“Generally speaking, there are also other formats for considering many questions, including the UN Security Council, the Middle East Quartet and the P5+1 on the Iranian nuclear problem,” Lavrov told journalists.



The Minister also commented on earlier reports regarding Australia considering not inviting President Vladimir Putin to the November G20 meeting, which is going to be held in Brisbane.



“The G20 was not established by Australia, which voiced the proposal not to invite Russia to the meeting. We created the format all together,” Lavrov said.



Meanwhile, G7 leaders – Canada, France, Germany, Italy, Japan, the UK and the US – are also holding a gathering at The Hague. According to the media, the Ukraine issue is high on the agenda.



Russia’s top diplomat is in the Netherlands, where representatives of over 50 states and chiefs of the UN, the EU, the International Atomic Energy Agency and the European Police Office have gathered for the Nuclear Security Summit to address the threat of nuclear terrorism.



On the sidelines of the gathering, Lavrov met with US Secretary of State John Kerry and yet again discussed the Ukraine question, which has caused quite a chill in relations between the two powers.



...



http://rt.com/news/lavrov-g8-crimea-kerry-933/

I don't see kicking Russia out of the G8 as being intended to do anything to Russia, but rather to make western countries look tough in their dealings with Russia.

You don't understand how the world economy works then..

Well it's clear that you do.



Sent from my iPhone using USMessageBoard.com

 

[Kevin_Kennedy]

I don't think there's any question Yanukovich was a Russian puppet. The issue here, however, is the west recognizing the rebels and deposing the Russian puppet and putting in their own puppet. The provocation to Russia is obvious, and it's easy to see why Putin reacted, as negative as it is, the way he did.


Sent from my iPhone using USMessageBoard.com

 

[editec]

I don't think there's any question Yanukovich was a Russian puppet. The issue here, however, is the west recognizing the rebels and deposing the Russian puppet and putting in their own puppet. The provocation to Russia is obvious, and it's easy to see why Putin reacted, as negative as it is, the way he did.


Sent from my iPhone using USMessageBoard.com

Yeah I think that a fair assessment of the events, Kev.

I have little doubt that Yanukovich was a tool, neither do I doubt the honest disgust that the Ukrainians had for him.

I am not entirely sure that the West insinuating itself into this domestic affair was a good idea.

It was entirely predictable that Russia was going to freak out if the WEST got involved, and I am fairly confident that the WEST knew that and therefore must have WANTED to have this breakdown in relations with Russia.

Other than understanding that Russia is not about (cannot afford) to lose access to the Black Sea, I have very little sympathy with either of the superpowers here, but am concerned with the well being of the Ukrainians in Ukraine AND in Crimea, too.

 

[pvsi]

What happens when the United States government participates meaningfully in toppling foreign governments in the name of spreading democracy? That behavior usually results in unintended consequences and often produces disasters.

...

When the Ukraine government needed cash and Russia offered it a better deal than the European Union, our imperial diplomats and lawless intelligence gurus were embarrassed. So, the U.S. fomented another revolution in the streets of Kiev. One of our diplomats, Victoria Nuland, acknowledged as much in a tapped and taped (complete with expletives) and eventually viral cellphone conversation. Then, Viktor Yanukovich, the popularly and lawfully elected Ukraine president, was toppled and fled to Moscow. The new unelected Ukraine president has received American recognition and help. Earlier this week, the U.S. offered him $1 billion in immediate cash.

Enter Vladimir Putin. He is the popularly elected president of Russia who has designs on reconstituting the old Soviet Union. Putin is also an ex-KGB agent; he is a torturer, a murderer, a tyrant and a monster. He often has lamented the demise of the former Soviet Union. Ukraine was a part of that union until the evil empire dissolved in 1991. It was the most economically productive part of that union. Today it enjoys a mostly free market and is highly entrepreneurial, though partly a welfare state. Roughly two-thirds of Ukraine identifies with Europe and one-third with Russia.

Monster Putin -- Could Ukraine standoff have been avoided by Obama? | Fox News

In other words, if the western powers, U.S. and E.U., had not meddled in the Ukraine to begin with, by undermining the existing government and essentially recognizing the rebels, then this entire fiasco could have been avoided. Of course Putin was going to react to his puppet government being thrown out and replaced by a U.S.-E.U. puppet government so close to Russian borders. It was an obvious provocation by the west.

I discus what is all 3 - Fox News, Obama and Putin in this speech: skip to 3 minute mark

 

[georgephillip]

What happens when the United States government participates meaningfully in toppling foreign governments in the name of spreading democracy? That behavior usually results in unintended consequences and often produces disasters.

...

When the Ukraine government needed cash and Russia offered it a better deal than the European Union, our imperial diplomats and lawless intelligence gurus were embarrassed. So, the U.S. fomented another revolution in the streets of Kiev. One of our diplomats, Victoria Nuland, acknowledged as much in a tapped and taped (complete with expletives) and eventually viral cellphone conversation. Then, Viktor Yanukovich, the popularly and lawfully elected Ukraine president, was toppled and fled to Moscow. The new unelected Ukraine president has received American recognition and help. Earlier this week, the U.S. offered him $1 billion in immediate cash.

Enter Vladimir Putin. He is the popularly elected president of Russia who has designs on reconstituting the old Soviet Union. Putin is also an ex-KGB agent; he is a torturer, a murderer, a tyrant and a monster. He often has lamented the demise of the former Soviet Union. Ukraine was a part of that union until the evil empire dissolved in 1991. It was the most economically productive part of that union. Today it enjoys a mostly free market and is highly entrepreneurial, though partly a welfare state. Roughly two-thirds of Ukraine identifies with Europe and one-third with Russia.

Monster Putin -- Could Ukraine standoff have been avoided by Obama? | Fox News

In other words, if the western powers, U.S. and E.U., had not meddled in the Ukraine to begin with, by undermining the existing government and essentially recognizing the rebels, then this entire fiasco could have been avoided. Of course Putin was going to react to his puppet government being thrown out and replaced by a U.S.-E.U. puppet government so close to Russian borders. It was an obvious provocation by the west.

Monster Putin -- Could Ukraine standoff have been avoided by Obama? | Fox News

"The stated purpose of the Russian invasion is to protect predominantly ethnic Russians in Crimea from the mob-induced fate of Yanukovich. At first blush, this seems nonsense.

"But consider the view from Moscow of the American-induced expulsion of the popularly elected and Russian-oriented Ukraine president.

"And then consider this: What would the U.S. do if the Chinese had fomented a revolution in Mexico and installed a Chinese-friendly government there that solicited Chinese loans and invited the Chinese to help govern?

"Would the U.S. protect English-speaking American-friendly folks along the Texas-Mexico border?"

It's not as far-fetched as it sounds.

If Russia, China, Iran, Brazil, India and other lesser economic powers succeed in depriving the US of its status the world's reserve currency, the business of America won't change in one fundamental respect: the Business of America will remain War.

Without the petrodollar the Pentagon may be unable to borrow enough money to invade states on the opposite side of the globe; however, that won't help Mexico.

 

[Avatar4321]

Yes. By keeping His word and not making threats he had no intention of backing up.

 

[georgephillip]

Ralph Nader's open letter to Obama suggests it's American Exceptionalism that's largely responsible for recent events in Ukraine:

"'Do as I say, not as I do,' is hard to sell to Russians who are interpreting your words of protest as disingenuous.

"This is especially the case because Crimea, long under the rule of the Ottoman Empire, became part of Russia over 200 years ago.

"In 1954, Soviet leader, Nikita Khrushchev gave Crimea to Ukraine, which was then part of the Soviet Union, out of sympathy for what Ukraine endured under the Nazi invasion and its atrocities.

"It mattered little then because both 'socialist republics,' Ukraine and Crimea, were part of the Soviet Union.

"However, it is not entirely clear whether Khrushchev fully complied with the Soviet constitution when he transferred Crimea to Ukraine.

"Compare, by the way, the United States’ seizure of Guantanamo from Cuba initially after the Spanish-American War, which was then retained after Cuba became independent over a century ago."

Obama to Putin: Do as I Say Not as I Do » CounterPunch: Tells the Facts, Names the Names

The rampant hypocrisy of the Greatest Purveyor of Violence in the World lecturing a minor thug like Putin on aspects of international law would be hysterical if not for the thousands of nuclear weapons both military superpowers possess.

 

[Kevin_Kennedy]

Ralph Nader's open letter to Obama suggests it's American Exceptionalism that's largely responsible for recent events in Ukraine:

"'Do as I say, not as I do,' is hard to sell to Russians who are interpreting your words of protest as disingenuous.

"This is especially the case because Crimea, long under the rule of the Ottoman Empire, became part of Russia over 200 years ago.

"In 1954, Soviet leader, Nikita Khrushchev gave Crimea to Ukraine, which was then part of the Soviet Union, out of sympathy for what Ukraine endured under the Nazi invasion and its atrocities.

"It mattered little then because both 'socialist republics,' Ukraine and Crimea, were part of the Soviet Union.

"However, it is not entirely clear whether Khrushchev fully complied with the Soviet constitution when he transferred Crimea to Ukraine.

"Compare, by the way, the United States’ seizure of Guantanamo from Cuba initially after the Spanish-American War, which was then retained after Cuba became independent over a century ago."

Obama to Putin: Do as I Say Not as I Do » CounterPunch: Tells the Facts, Names the Names

The rampant hypocrisy of the Greatest Purveyor of Violence in the World lecturing a minor thug like Putin on aspects of international law would be hysterical if not for the thousands of nuclear weapons both military superpowers possess.

I wouldn't categorize Putin as a minor thug. Gaddhafi, Assad, Kim Jong-un, and Ahmadinejad are minor thugs. Putin is a very serious thug, which is not to undermine the fact that Obama, along with other western leaders, is also a very serious thug.

 

[FlemishMaster]

Ralph Nader's open letter to Obama suggests it's American Exceptionalism that's largely responsible for recent events in Ukraine:

"'Do as I say, not as I do,' is hard to sell to Russians who are interpreting your words of protest as disingenuous.

"This is especially the case because Crimea, long under the rule of the Ottoman Empire, became part of Russia over 200 years ago.

"In 1954, Soviet leader, Nikita Khrushchev gave Crimea to Ukraine, which was then part of the Soviet Union, out of sympathy for what Ukraine endured under the Nazi invasion and its atrocities.

"It mattered little then because both 'socialist republics,' Ukraine and Crimea, were part of the Soviet Union.

"However, it is not entirely clear whether Khrushchev fully complied with the Soviet constitution when he transferred Crimea to Ukraine.

"Compare, by the way, the United States’ seizure of Guantanamo from Cuba initially after the Spanish-American War, which was then retained after Cuba became independent over a century ago."

Obama to Putin: Do as I Say Not as I Do » CounterPunch: Tells the Facts, Names the Names

The rampant hypocrisy of the Greatest Purveyor of Violence in the World lecturing a minor thug like Putin on aspects of international law would be hysterical if not for the thousands of nuclear weapons both military superpowers possess.

I wouldn't categorize Putin as a minor thug. Gaddhafi, Assad, Kim Jong-un, and Ahmadinejad are minor thugs. Putin is a very serious thug, which is not to undermine the fact that Obama, along with other western leaders, is also a very serious thug.

I'm not a fan of Putin and I think that many of his policies are repressive and not in the long-term interest of the russian people. But i wouldn't consider him a thug and I wouldn't put him in the same category as Assad, Khadaffi, Kim Jong-Un, etc. He's an authoritarian and repressive leader, not a mass-murderer.

 

[TakeAStepBack]

Ralph Nader's open letter to Obama suggests it's American Exceptionalism that's largely responsible for recent events in Ukraine:

"'Do as I say, not as I do,' is hard to sell to Russians who are interpreting your words of protest as disingenuous.

"This is especially the case because Crimea, long under the rule of the Ottoman Empire, became part of Russia over 200 years ago.

"In 1954, Soviet leader, Nikita Khrushchev gave Crimea to Ukraine, which was then part of the Soviet Union, out of sympathy for what Ukraine endured under the Nazi invasion and its atrocities.

"It mattered little then because both 'socialist republics,' Ukraine and Crimea, were part of the Soviet Union.

"However, it is not entirely clear whether Khrushchev fully complied with the Soviet constitution when he transferred Crimea to Ukraine.

"Compare, by the way, the United States’ seizure of Guantanamo from Cuba initially after the Spanish-American War, which was then retained after Cuba became independent over a century ago."

Obama to Putin: Do as I Say Not as I Do » CounterPunch: Tells the Facts, Names the Names

The rampant hypocrisy of the Greatest Purveyor of Violence in the World lecturing a minor thug like Putin on aspects of international law would be hysterical if not for the thousands of nuclear weapons both military superpowers possess.

I wouldn't categorize Putin as a minor thug. Gaddhafi, Assad, Kim Jong-un, and Ahmadinejad are minor thugs. Putin is a very serious thug, which is not to undermine the fact that Obama, along with other western leaders, is also a very serious thug.

Exactly. This is nothing more than a gang turf war and the western gangs end up looking like the hypocrites over it.

 

[Kevin_Kennedy]

Ralph Nader's open letter to Obama suggests it's American Exceptionalism that's largely responsible for recent events in Ukraine:

"'Do as I say, not as I do,' is hard to sell to Russians who are interpreting your words of protest as disingenuous.

"This is especially the case because Crimea, long under the rule of the Ottoman Empire, became part of Russia over 200 years ago.

"In 1954, Soviet leader, Nikita Khrushchev gave Crimea to Ukraine, which was then part of the Soviet Union, out of sympathy for what Ukraine endured under the Nazi invasion and its atrocities.

"It mattered little then because both 'socialist republics,' Ukraine and Crimea, were part of the Soviet Union.

"However, it is not entirely clear whether Khrushchev fully complied with the Soviet constitution when he transferred Crimea to Ukraine.

"Compare, by the way, the United States’ seizure of Guantanamo from Cuba initially after the Spanish-American War, which was then retained after Cuba became independent over a century ago."

Obama to Putin: Do as I Say Not as I Do » CounterPunch: Tells the Facts, Names the Names

The rampant hypocrisy of the Greatest Purveyor of Violence in the World lecturing a minor thug like Putin on aspects of international law would be hysterical if not for the thousands of nuclear weapons both military superpowers possess.

I wouldn't categorize Putin as a minor thug. Gaddhafi, Assad, Kim Jong-un, and Ahmadinejad are minor thugs. Putin is a very serious thug, which is not to undermine the fact that Obama, along with other western leaders, is also a very serious thug.

I'm not a fan of Putin and I think that many of his policies are repressive and not in the long-term interest of the russian people. But i wouldn't consider him a thug and I wouldn't put him in the same category as Assad, Khadaffi, Kim Jong-Un, etc. He's an authoritarian and repressive leader, not a mass-murderer.

I'm talking on a global stage. Domestically there's no question that these other thugs are terrors to their own population, but globally they were and are essentially nothing. Putin on the other hand, while maybe not as bad domestically as a Kim Jong-un, is a player globally.

 

[FlemishMaster]

I wouldn't categorize Putin as a minor thug. Gaddhafi, Assad, Kim Jong-un, and Ahmadinejad are minor thugs. Putin is a very serious thug, which is not to undermine the fact that Obama, along with other western leaders, is also a very serious thug.

I'm not a fan of Putin and I think that many of his policies are repressive and not in the long-term interest of the russian people. But i wouldn't consider him a thug and I wouldn't put him in the same category as Assad, Khadaffi, Kim Jong-Un, etc. He's an authoritarian and repressive leader, not a mass-murderer.

I'm talking on a global stage. Domestically there's no question that these other thugs are terrors to their own population, but globally they were and are essentially nothing. Putin on the other hand, while maybe not as bad domestically as a Kim Jong-un, is a player globally.

True, but he is also a much more responsible and predictable player unlike Kim Jong-Un. Kim Jong-un is indeed not a global player, but the chance that he starts a major and very bloody war that involves most of the world's major powers is much greater than that Putin would do such a thing (or Assad for that matter).

 

[Kevin_Kennedy]

I'm not a fan of Putin and I think that many of his policies are repressive and not in the long-term interest of the russian people. But i wouldn't consider him a thug and I wouldn't put him in the same category as Assad, Khadaffi, Kim Jong-Un, etc. He's an authoritarian and repressive leader, not a mass-murderer.

I'm talking on a global stage. Domestically there's no question that these other thugs are terrors to their own population, but globally they were and are essentially nothing. Putin on the other hand, while maybe not as bad domestically as a Kim Jong-un, is a player globally.

True, but he is also a much more responsible and predictable player unlike Kim Jong-Un. Kim Jong-un is indeed not a global player, but the chance that he starts a major and very bloody war that involves most of the world's major powers is much greater than that Putin would do such a thing (or Assad for that matter).

Really? Kim Jong-un simply acts out every so often, trying to shoot off some missile that works about half the time. I don't see that as being a legitimate impetus to war, not that a legitimate impetus is necessary when it comes to U.S. hawks, mind you, but Putin sending troops into Crimea and Crimea joining Russia certainly strikes me as something, even though you can't really say he started the conflict, that could spark something ugly.