Could Ukraine standoff have been avoided by Obama?

[georgephillip]

Ralph Nader's open letter to Obama suggests it's American Exceptionalism that's largely responsible for recent events in Ukraine:

"'Do as I say, not as I do,' is hard to sell to Russians who are interpreting your words of protest as disingenuous.

"This is especially the case because Crimea, long under the rule of the Ottoman Empire, became part of Russia over 200 years ago.

"In 1954, Soviet leader, Nikita Khrushchev gave Crimea to Ukraine, which was then part of the Soviet Union, out of sympathy for what Ukraine endured under the Nazi invasion and its atrocities.

"It mattered little then because both 'socialist republics,' Ukraine and Crimea, were part of the Soviet Union.

"However, it is not entirely clear whether Khrushchev fully complied with the Soviet constitution when he transferred Crimea to Ukraine.

"Compare, by the way, the United States’ seizure of Guantanamo from Cuba initially after the Spanish-American War, which was then retained after Cuba became independent over a century ago."

Obama to Putin: Do as I Say Not as I Do » CounterPunch: Tells the Facts, Names the Names

The rampant hypocrisy of the Greatest Purveyor of Violence in the World lecturing a minor thug like Putin on aspects of international law would be hysterical if not for the thousands of nuclear weapons both military superpowers possess.

I wouldn't categorize Putin as a minor thug. Gaddhafi, Assad, Kim Jong-un, and Ahmadinejad are minor thugs. Putin is a very serious thug, which is not to undermine the fact that Obama, along with other western leaders, is also a very serious thug.

Along with a few Egyptian generals...

"Reuters) - The leader of Egypt's outlawed Muslim Brotherhood and 682 others went on trial on Tuesday on charges including murder, a day after more than 500 supporters of deposed Islamist president Mohamed Mursi were sentenced to death."

Brotherhood head, 682 others tried in Egypt after mass death sentence | Reuters

 

[FlemishMaster]

I'm talking on a global stage. Domestically there's no question that these other thugs are terrors to their own population, but globally they were and are essentially nothing. Putin on the other hand, while maybe not as bad domestically as a Kim Jong-un, is a player globally.

True, but he is also a much more responsible and predictable player unlike Kim Jong-Un. Kim Jong-un is indeed not a global player, but the chance that he starts a major and very bloody war that involves most of the world's major powers is much greater than that Putin would do such a thing (or Assad for that matter).

Really? Kim Jong-un simply acts out every so often, trying to shoot off some missile that works about half the time. I don't see that as being a legitimate impetus to war, not that a legitimate impetus is necessary when it comes to U.S. hawks, mind you, but Putin sending troops into Crimea and Crimea joining Russia certainly strikes me as something, even though you can't really say he started the conflict, that could spark something ugly.

You seem to forget that ocasionally North Korea actually engages in lethal attacks; that it kidnaps citizens of other countries; and that the missiles they fire off are fairly unpredictable and could intentionally or otherwise hit Japan. The regime in North korea is erratic and the risk that it may miscalculate at some point (as they have done in the past) is very serious. A renewed conflict on the Korean peninsula may easily cost several millions of lives.

As for Putin's actions in the crimea, he only formalized his domination of an area where he was already militarily present and dominant. The chances for a military clash with the US and or NATO over Ukraine are nil, since the US and NATO will under no circumstances fight to defend Ukraine.

 

[Kevin_Kennedy]

True, but he is also a much more responsible and predictable player unlike Kim Jong-Un. Kim Jong-un is indeed not a global player, but the chance that he starts a major and very bloody war that involves most of the world's major powers is much greater than that Putin would do such a thing (or Assad for that matter).

Really? Kim Jong-un simply acts out every so often, trying to shoot off some missile that works about half the time. I don't see that as being a legitimate impetus to war, not that a legitimate impetus is necessary when it comes to U.S. hawks, mind you, but Putin sending troops into Crimea and Crimea joining Russia certainly strikes me as something, even though you can't really say he started the conflict, that could spark something ugly.

You seem to forget that ocasionally North Korea actually engages in lethal attacks; that it kidnaps citizens of other countries; and that the missiles they fire off are fairly unpredictable and could intentionally or otherwise hit Japan. The regime in North korea is erratic and the risk that it may miscalculate at some point (as they have done in the past) is very serious. A renewed conflict on the Korean peninsula may easily cost several millions of lives.

As for Putin's actions in the crimea, he only formalized his domination of an area where he was already militarily present and dominant. The chances for a military clash with the US and or NATO over Ukraine are nil, since the US and NATO will under no circumstances fight to defend Ukraine.

I suppose you do make a good point. It is far more likely that the U.S. would attack North Korea than it would Russia. Russia is too strong, but I think North Korea's erratic behavior would preclude the U.S. attacking them too. Far better to focus on weak countries like Iraq or Libya that are unable to do anything at all.

 

[FlemishMaster]

Really? Kim Jong-un simply acts out every so often, trying to shoot off some missile that works about half the time. I don't see that as being a legitimate impetus to war, not that a legitimate impetus is necessary when it comes to U.S. hawks, mind you, but Putin sending troops into Crimea and Crimea joining Russia certainly strikes me as something, even though you can't really say he started the conflict, that could spark something ugly.

You seem to forget that ocasionally North Korea actually engages in lethal attacks; that it kidnaps citizens of other countries; and that the missiles they fire off are fairly unpredictable and could intentionally or otherwise hit Japan. The regime in North korea is erratic and the risk that it may miscalculate at some point (as they have done in the past) is very serious. A renewed conflict on the Korean peninsula may easily cost several millions of lives.

As for Putin's actions in the crimea, he only formalized his domination of an area where he was already militarily present and dominant. The chances for a military clash with the US and or NATO over Ukraine are nil, since the US and NATO will under no circumstances fight to defend Ukraine.

I suppose you do make a good point. It is far more likely that the U.S. would attack North Korea than it would Russia. Russia is too strong, but I think North Korea's erratic behavior would preclude the U.S. attacking them too. Far better to focus on weak countries like Iraq or Libya that are unable to do anything at all.

I'm not suggesting the US would attack North Korea. But in certain cases a North Korean action may leave the US and its allies no chance but to respond. Also, the regime in North Korea is much more unstable than the reguime in Russia. If the regime in Pyongyang were to come crashing down there is every possibility it might lash out militarily at its neighbours (however suicidal that might be).

 

[georgephillip]

According to Socialists, Ukrainian oligarchs will benefit first and foremost from the latest round of IMF loans, just as they have over the past two decades.

"At the weekend, German foreign minister Frank-Walter Steinmeier (Social Democratic Party, SPD) visited Donetsk in eastern Ukraine to pay his respects to the oligarchs of the industrial metropolis.

"First to receive him was Rinat Akhmetov in his glass-clad corporate headquarters, where they held a private conversation lasting one hour.

"With an estimated fortune of $18 billion, Akhmetov is the richest man in Ukraine. His investment company, System Capital Management (SCM), controls large parts of eastern Ukraine’s steel and coal industries, and plays a leading role in the food and transport industries, as well as commercial agriculture.

"Akhmetov also enjoys influence with the regional media and is president of the Shakhtar Donetsk Football Club, which he built up into the leading Ukrainian club with massive financial support.

"For a long time, the 'Godfather of Donetsk' was regarded as the eminence grise of Viktor Yanukovich, who was deposed as president on February 22. Akhmetov financed Yanukovich’s election campaigns in 2004 and 2010, and has sat as a deputy in the Ukrainian parliament since 2006 for Yanukovich’s Party of Regions.

"However, he has always hedged his bets in all political directions.

"Yanukovich’s rival Yulia Timoshenko has also benefited from the financial drip feed of the richest Ukrainian oligarch."

German foreign minister Steinmeier woos Ukrainian oligarchs - World Socialist Web Site

 

[Vikrant]

It could have been avoided for sure. It seems like G8 (minus Russia) counted on the fact that Russians would do anything if they were threatened to be kicked out of G8. That does not seem to be the case.

---

Russia is not clinging to the G8 format, as all major world problems can be discussed at other international venues such as G20, Russia’s Foreign Minister Sergey Lavrov has said.

“The G8 is an informal club, no one gives out membership cards and no one can expel members,” Lavrov told a media conference at the Hague. “If our Western partners believe that this format has exhausted itself, let it be. We are not clinging to it.”

He went on to say that many believe that the G8 has already fulfilled its mission as many issues are now discussed at the G20 forum.

“Generally speaking, there are also other formats for considering many questions, including the UN Security Council, the Middle East Quartet and the P5+1 on the Iranian nuclear problem,” Lavrov told journalists.

The Minister also commented on earlier reports regarding Australia considering not inviting President Vladimir Putin to the November G20 meeting, which is going to be held in Brisbane.

“The G20 was not established by Australia, which voiced the proposal not to invite Russia to the meeting. We created the format all together,” Lavrov said.

Meanwhile, G7 leaders – Canada, France, Germany, Italy, Japan, the UK and the US – are also holding a gathering at The Hague. According to the media, the Ukraine issue is high on the agenda.

Russia’s top diplomat is in the Netherlands, where representatives of over 50 states and chiefs of the UN, the EU, the International Atomic Energy Agency and the European Police Office have gathered for the Nuclear Security Summit to address the threat of nuclear terrorism.

On the sidelines of the gathering, Lavrov met with US Secretary of State John Kerry and yet again discussed the Ukraine question, which has caused quite a chill in relations between the two powers.

...

Russia not clinging to G8 if West does not want it ? Russian FM ? RT News

I don't see kicking Russia out of the G8 as being intended to do anything to Russia, but rather to make western countries look tough in their dealings with Russia.

Some members of G7 are in downright turmoil. So its strength is diminishing. BRICS on the other hand has some members including Russia whose economy has literally skyrocketed. This BRICS is firmly backing Russia's position in G20 which is more important to Russia than G7.

---

BRICS ministers: Russia should be allowed to participate in G20 Summit - UPI.com

 

[tinydancer]

It could have been avoided for sure. It seems like G8 (minus Russia) counted on the fact that Russians would do anything if they were threatened to be kicked out of G8. That does not seem to be the case.

---

Russia is not clinging to the G8 format, as all major world problems can be discussed at other international venues such as G20, Russia’s Foreign Minister Sergey Lavrov has said.

“The G8 is an informal club, no one gives out membership cards and no one can expel members,” Lavrov told a media conference at the Hague. “If our Western partners believe that this format has exhausted itself, let it be. We are not clinging to it.”

He went on to say that many believe that the G8 has already fulfilled its mission as many issues are now discussed at the G20 forum.

“Generally speaking, there are also other formats for considering many questions, including the UN Security Council, the Middle East Quartet and the P5+1 on the Iranian nuclear problem,” Lavrov told journalists.

The Minister also commented on earlier reports regarding Australia considering not inviting President Vladimir Putin to the November G20 meeting, which is going to be held in Brisbane.

“The G20 was not established by Australia, which voiced the proposal not to invite Russia to the meeting. We created the format all together,” Lavrov said.

Meanwhile, G7 leaders – Canada, France, Germany, Italy, Japan, the UK and the US – are also holding a gathering at The Hague. According to the media, the Ukraine issue is high on the agenda.

Russia’s top diplomat is in the Netherlands, where representatives of over 50 states and chiefs of the UN, the EU, the International Atomic Energy Agency and the European Police Office have gathered for the Nuclear Security Summit to address the threat of nuclear terrorism.

On the sidelines of the gathering, Lavrov met with US Secretary of State John Kerry and yet again discussed the Ukraine question, which has caused quite a chill in relations between the two powers.

...

http://rt.com/news/lavrov-g8-crimea-kerry-933/

I don't see kicking Russia out of the G8 as being intended to do anything to Russia, but rather to make western countries look tough in their dealings with Russia.

You don't understand how the world economy works then..

Russia has the EU by the balls. Not the other way around. Fools the bloody lot of them including my Prime Minister and President Obama.

A picture is worth a quizzillion words. Russia can turn off the taps or jake the price.
Ruh roh. So much for harsh words from the G7 eh?

 

[tinydancer]

What happens when the United States government participates meaningfully in toppling foreign governments in the name of spreading democracy? That behavior usually results in unintended consequences and often produces disasters.

...

When the Ukraine government needed cash and Russia offered it a better deal than the European Union, our imperial diplomats and lawless intelligence gurus were embarrassed. So, the U.S. fomented another revolution in the streets of Kiev. One of our diplomats, Victoria Nuland, acknowledged as much in a tapped and taped (complete with expletives) and eventually viral cellphone conversation. Then, Viktor Yanukovich, the popularly and lawfully elected Ukraine president, was toppled and fled to Moscow. The new unelected Ukraine president has received American recognition and help. Earlier this week, the U.S. offered him $1 billion in immediate cash.

Enter Vladimir Putin. He is the popularly elected president of Russia who has designs on reconstituting the old Soviet Union. Putin is also an ex-KGB agent; he is a torturer, a murderer, a tyrant and a monster. He often has lamented the demise of the former Soviet Union. Ukraine was a part of that union until the evil empire dissolved in 1991. It was the most economically productive part of that union. Today it enjoys a mostly free market and is highly entrepreneurial, though partly a welfare state. Roughly two-thirds of Ukraine identifies with Europe and one-third with Russia.

Monster Putin -- Could Ukraine standoff have been avoided by Obama? | Fox News

In other words, if the western powers, U.S. and E.U., had not meddled in the Ukraine to begin with, by undermining the existing government and essentially recognizing the rebels, then this entire fiasco could have been avoided. Of course Putin was going to react to his puppet government being thrown out and replaced by a U.S.-E.U. puppet government so close to Russian borders. It was an obvious provocation by the west.

Viktor Yanukovich was a Russian puppet, as evidenced when he fled to Russia. He was jailing opposition leaders and governing like a dictator. Which is why there was an uprising.

Bullshit that he was governing like a dictator. The protests started out very small and non violent.

The opposition parties including Svoboda saw an opportunity for a coup. Partnering with the Right Sector they kicked the protests into high gear with violence.

Oh and they were armed and dangerous. They are mega goons after all.

Now as to the President being a puppet of Russia? More freaking bullshit. He won the election in 2010 fair and square and every body that voted for him knew where he stood on issues.

The bottom line when it came to joining the EU or taking the financial deal offered by Moscow, bottom line was that Russia offered a sweeter deal for the Ukraine. A far sweeter deal.

He won not only a majority but the vote won high praises from observers. This isn't Putin propaganda. Check the date Sallow. He beat that loser bitch hands down.

Pretty high praise from the observers.


Yanukovych set to become president as observers say Ukraine election was fair
• Yulia Tymoshenko under pressure to concede defeat

• Monitors praise 'impressive display' of democracy

Luke Harding in Kiev
The Guardian, Monday 8 February 2010 14.27 GMT




Observers from the Organisation for Security and Co-operation in Europe (OSCE) said there were no indications of serious fraud and described the vote as an "impressive display" of democracy "For everyone in Ukraine this election was a victory," João Soares, president of the OSCE's parliamentary assembly, said.

Yanukovych set to become president as observers say Ukraine election was fair | World news | The Guardian

 

[georgephillip]

Colonel Larry Wilkerson offers his thoughts on why Obama and Putin are "acting tough" on recent events in Kiev:

"DESVARIEUX: Alright. I want to get your take on the U.S.'s role in the way the crisis in Kiev has thus far resulted in this unconstitutional transitional government. What do you think their role has been?

"WILKERSON: The United States's role has been the same in Kiev, I think, that it is in Caracas and that it was before in Damascus, and that is essentially fomenting regime change, whether you're doing it through the National Endowment for Democracy, its counterparts the IRI and the NDI, or with the CIA, who are all in tandem, which is what I think we're doing.

"We have no one to blame but ourselves for what results when a great power sitting on the border of the country we're trying to change the regime in suddenly objects.

"I mean, this is Hungary in 1956, when we egged, by propaganda and CIA covert actions, the Hungarians to rise up. And they rose up, and the Soviet tanks rolled in. Or it's Prague in 1968.

"We've been through this before.

"It's just Russia now and not the U.S.S.R., but some things simply don't change. Great power and the influences and moves and the procedures that they go through in exercising that power simply don't change over time.

"So it doesn't matter whether it's Putin or Catherine the Great or some future leader of Russia, or whether it's Obama or Mitt Romney.

"Their hands should be tied in terms of taking this further and risking a really serious war."

What's Driving Putin & Obama's Posturing on Ukraine?

 

[Vikrant]

No body should be criticizing Obama for not taking military action against Russia. ~ Steven Seagal

---

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EAb39HMVAGE]Steven Seagal on U.S., Russia, and Ukraine - YouTube[/ame]

 

[georgephillip]

A Socialist Perspective:

"Last month’s US-instigated, fascist-spearheaded coup in Ukraine has intensified the deep divisions within Iran’s bourgeois political elite over the Islamic Republic’s relations with US imperialism and its European Union allies.

"Those sections of the Iranian media most supportive of President Hassan Rouhani’s recent overtures to the US and EU are parroting Washington’s lies.

"Like the Obama administration and the Western media, they are hailing the overthrow of Ukraine’s elected president as a 'democratic revolution' and denouncing supposed Russian 'aggression.'

Ukraine coup intensifies conflicts within Iran?s elite - World Socialist Web Site

Apparently Iran's 1% are willing to ally themselves with neo-Nazis and the IMF in order to "do business" with the EU and US...

 

[1776]

Uh, the people of Ukraine rose up on their own against a Russian puppet that openly lied to them about working more with the EU and less with Russia. Putin paid him off to stay a slave to Russia so the people protested and kicked him out of office, not after many were killed by Russian backed secret police/FSB spies. The Russian puppet then fled with Russia after stealing millions of dollars from the Ukrainian GOV.

Putin's response could've been avoided if he was afraid of a real response by Obama and others in Europe. Putin understands he holds Europe hostage with gas sales and Obama is too busy trying to cover up scandal after scandal here. Putin doesn't respect Obama, so he felt stealing parts of Ukraine and maybe all of it someday is good for Russia and their right.

 

[JakeStarkey]

Could Ukraine standoff have been avoided by Obama?

Only if he reversed the policies of Clinton and Bush, which at the time made sense. But Obama should have withdrawn USA influence once it became evident the struggle would be between Russian and Ukranian fascists.

 

[georgephillip]

Could Ukraine standoff have been avoided by Obama?

Only if he reversed the policies of Clinton and Bush, which at the time made sense. But Obama should have withdrawn USA influence once it became evident the struggle would be between Russian and Ukranian fascists.

Is it too late for Obama to reverse his policies in Ukraine?

"Responsibility for the escalating risk of bloodshed lies squarely with the aggressive policies of the Obama administration and its European allies.

"They incited and backed a putsch by fascist, anti-Russian forces like Right Sector, aiming to geo-strategically cripple Russia by installing a pro-Western, anti-Russian regime in Kiev.

"Now, the NATO powers are backing Kiev’s hysterical threats of a crackdown and calling for escalating Western military intervention in Europe.

"NATO’s top military commander in Europe, US Air Force General Philip Breedlove, said he was preparing plans for a military build-up to surround Russia with NATO troops.

“'Essentially what we are looking at is a package of land, air and maritime measures that would build assurance for our easternmost allies,' Breedlove said in an interview with the AP. 'I'm tasked to deliver this by next week. I fully intend to deliver it early.'

"Asked if US soldiers would be posted to 'frontline' states bordering Russia, he said yes: 'I would not write off contributions from any nation.'”

Civil war looms as pro-US regime threatens massacre of east Ukraine protesters - World Socialist Web Site

 

[Vikrant]

There is a possibility of **** hitting the fan.

---

The Pentagon said a Russian fighter jet made multiple close-range passes near an American navy destroyer. The warship was deployed in the Black Sea as Russian military monitored NATO’s systematic build-up of naval forces in the region.

"This provocative and unprofessional Russian action is inconsistent with their national protocols and previous agreements on the professional interaction between our militaries," said Colonel Steve Warren, a Pentagon spokesman.

"I have difficulty believing that two Russian pilots on their own would choose to take such an action."

Pentagon defined the jet as a Russian Su-24 aircraft, or Fencer, which made 12 passes at low altitude near the USS Donald Cook that, at the time, was conducting a patrol in international waters in the western Black Sea, Reuters reported.

Earlier, a military official told AP that on April, 12, a Russian aircraft flew repeatedly within 1,000 yards of the USS Donald Cook at about 500 feet above sea level for over 90 minutes.

According to the official, the destroyer’s crew made several attempts to radio the Russian warplane requesting the reason for the manoeuvre. They then reportedly issued warnings to remain at a safe distance, however, there was no response from the Russian pilot.

...

http://rt.com/news/pentagon-destroyer-russian-jet-428/

 

[georgephillip]

There is a possibility of **** hitting the fan.

---

The Pentagon said a Russian fighter jet made multiple close-range passes near an American navy destroyer. The warship was deployed in the Black Sea as Russian military monitored NATO’s systematic build-up of naval forces in the region.

"This provocative and unprofessional Russian action is inconsistent with their national protocols and previous agreements on the professional interaction between our militaries," said Colonel Steve Warren, a Pentagon spokesman.

"I have difficulty believing that two Russian pilots on their own would choose to take such an action."

Pentagon defined the jet as a Russian Su-24 aircraft, or Fencer, which made 12 passes at low altitude near the USS Donald Cook that, at the time, was conducting a patrol in international waters in the western Black Sea, Reuters reported.

Earlier, a military official told AP that on April, 12, a Russian aircraft flew repeatedly within 1,000 yards of the USS Donald Cook at about 500 feet above sea level for over 90 minutes.

According to the official, the destroyer’s crew made several attempts to radio the Russian warplane requesting the reason for the manoeuvre. They then reportedly issued warnings to remain at a safe distance, however, there was no response from the Russian pilot.

...

Pentagon: Russian fighter jet repeatedly flew over US destroyer in Black Sea ? RT News

"Andrey Parubiy, head of Ukraine’s National Security and Defense Council, announced the first battalion of a National Guard 'comprised of volunteers from Maidan self-defense troops', has left Kiev for the south-east."

Another way of saying this: the Nazis who drove an elected president from office at the behest of the US State Department are taking their firebombs on the road.

Sleepwalking toward war is the best description I've heard for what's playing out in Ukraine almost exactly 100 years after the beginning of the War to End All Wars.

http://rt.com/news/kiev-military-operation-east-584/