Let's Drop the Partisan Knee-Jerk Reactions and Look at the Ukraine Negotiations Realistically and Fairly

[JoeB131]

Moscow is expendable. Napoleon had it burned down back in 1812, but he lost the war. America, if really determined, may burn it down, too. But in this case America will lose at least 50% of population if unconditionally surrender after the first Russian counter-value strike and more than 90% if not. In practical terms Russia definitely has an upper hand in the nuclear war.

You are a crazy person, aren't you?

Russia is a basket case without nuclear war.

That's why all your pretty women want to be mail order brides to America.

 

[Zavulon]

You are a crazy person, aren't you?

And who is not? Sanity is arbitrary, isn't it?

Russia is a basket case without nuclear war.

That's why we love nukes so much and determined to use them if necessary (or even if not really necessary). It is the only thing that stays between Russia and fate of Yugoslavia or Iraq.

 

[JoeB131]

That's why we love nukes so much and determined to use them if necessary (or even if not really necessary). It is the only thing that stays between Russia and fate of Yugoslavia or Iraq.

Yugoslavia and Iraq fell because they have shit governments their own people couldn't stand.

Same thing happened to the USSR, come to think of it, despite nukes.

Eventually, Russians will get sick of Putin.

 

[Zavulon]

Yugoslavia and Iraq fell because they have shit governments their own people couldn't stand.

Its more politically motivated rhetoric rather the actual explanation.

Same thing happened to the USSR, come to think of it, despite nukes.

It wasn't "despite nukes". Partly it was because of nukes. Russia decided that with nukes she doesn't actually need Poland and Romania to defend itself. You know, the logic was more or less simple: "NATO won't dare to expand eastward and kill Russians, because if they do something that provocative - we'll use nuclear weapons to kill them." In a sense it even worked - Russia got forty years of peace and getting rich (for world's market is much more profitable than East-European only), but stupid American decision makers decided that they really "won" something and they can actually treat Russia and kill Russians. So, that's the time to prove that both American and Russian decision makers were wrong, peaceful coexistence is impossible, deterrence doesn't work with western suiciders and Russia actually need to use nukes to stop and eliminate them.

Eventually, Russians will get sick of Putin.

I don't like Putin anyway. But it is not about him. It is about safety of Russian people. You attack one of us, you attack all of us.

 

[JoeB131]

It wasn't "despite nukes". Partly it was because of nukes. Russia decided that with nukes she doesn't actually need Poland and Romania to defend itself.

Poland and Romania weren't part of the USSR>

The problem is that they lost Ukraine and Kazakhstan.

 

[Zavulon]

Poland and Romania weren't part of the USSR>

They were part of Warsaw pact. In fifties, sixties and even seventies they seemed to be essential for Russia's safety. In eighties, with enough of progress in nuclear weapons, the soil for future mutually acceptable treaties seemed to be found. And it made Warsaw pact and even the USSR unnecessary (at least it was the idea).

The problem is that they lost Ukraine and Kazakhstan.

It's not a big deal either. Their formal independence (while they were not trying to join hostile military alliance and didn't really discriminate Russians) - was more or less acceptable.
Live and allow live others, if they are not making hostile actions against you.

 

[toobfreak]

Sanity is arbitrary, isn't it?

No, just the opposite is true. Sanity is absolute. If it were not, we would be talking about relativism--- and there would be no right or wrong answer to a problem.

Sanity is the guidepost by which one reliably determines reality from fiction.

 

[Zavulon]

No, just the opposite is true. Sanity is absolute.

No one is absolute sane. Right now, typing this text, I'm drinking coffee, and coffee is a poison (ok, everything is poison and everything is medicine, after all). Of course, it slightly affects my understanding, my perception, my reasoning. I'm intoxicated, and, therefore, I can't be "absolutely sane". Someone else use cocaine or marijuana. Are there posts "sane"? Other guys, say, watch TV and full of irrational hatred to Russia. Are they "sane"?

If it were not, we would be talking about relativism--- and there would be no right or wrong answer to a problem.

Quite often there is no "right or wrong answer". Life is a complicated thing, you know.

Sanity is the guidepost by which one reliably determines reality from fiction.

Human mind can't work with the raw reality itself. We always work with perceptions, models and words of other human beings. Sometimes models are adequate, sometimes they are not. Sometimes other people say truth (as they understand it), more often they lie. Is it sane to believe such proven liars as Western media? Is the lack of critical thinking is a sign of "sane thinking"?

 

[JoeB131]

They were part of Warsaw pact. In fifties, sixties and even seventies they seemed to be essential for Russia's safety. In eighties, with enough of progress in nuclear weapons, the soil for future mutually acceptable treaties seemed to be found. And it made Warsaw pact and even the USSR unnecessary (at least it was the idea).

Really? It looked to the rest of the world like they threw your asses out.

It's not a big deal either. Their formal independence (while they were not trying to join hostile military alliance and didn't really discriminate Russians) - was more or less acceptable.
Live and allow live others, if they are not making hostile actions against you.

Again, you got thrown out on your cans.

Putin trying to restore a dead empire is just laughable.

 

[Robert W]

Moscow is expendable. Napoleon had it burned down back in 1812, but he lost the war. America, if really determined, may burn it down, too. But in this case America will lose at least 50% of population if unconditionally surrender after the first Russian counter-value strike and more than 90% if not. In practical terms Russia definitely has an upper hand in the nuclear war.

Putin has not lasted this long by being completely stupid. Putin never will unleash nuclear war.

 

[Robert W]

No one is absolute sane. Right now, typing this text, I'm drinking coffee, and coffee is a poison (ok, everything is poison and everything is medicine, after all). Of course, it slightly affects my understanding, my perception, my reasoning. I'm intoxicated, and, therefore, I can't be "absolutely sane". Someone else use cocaine or marijuana. Are there posts "sane"? Other guys, say, watch TV and full of irrational hatred to Russia. Are they "sane"?

I have watched many videos of life today in Russia. I don't hate Russia at all. I don't see posters here hating Russia. I see some that hate Putin. For what he has done both to Ukraine but also Russia. Don't you want the pain he causes to stop?

 

[Robert W]

How so? It there some kind of magic curse or you got a weapon to destroy Yamantau mountain? And, anyway, Putin is expendable.

Putin has seen already that the USA can exterminate vicious men around the world. Putin must end war.

 

[Zavulon]

Really? It looked to the rest of the world like they threw your asses out.

I know how did you see it. You were wrong. It was partly a wishful thinking, partly self-praising. Most of you never understood what actually happened. That's the root of the problem.

Again, you got thrown out on your cans.

As if Russia (or America) has nothing to do, but to sponsor and defend Poles and Romanians.

Putin trying to restore a dead empire is just laughable.

What is really laughable is you attempts to invent a straw man and fight him (totally ignoring and even denying the real situation and the real problems).

 

[toobfreak]

No one is absolute sane. Human mind can't work with the raw reality itself.

You have a lot of interesting and quaint theories, Zavulon, but unfortunately, they are not really true. I've known absolutely sane people, and sanity is absolute. But you have to be sane or have known truly sane thinking and people to understand that.

But I'll give you this: truly sane people are very far and few between these days.

 

[JoeB131]

I know how did you see it. You were wrong. It was partly a wishful thinking, partly self-praising. Most of you never understood what actually happened. That's the root of the problem.

We understood what happened very well.

The people of Eastern Europe finally stood up to the neighborhood bully, and they were better off for it.

 

[Zavulon]

Putin has seen already that the USA can exterminate vicious men around the world. Putin must end war.

America has seen already that Russia can exterminate vicious men (even millions of them) around the world. So, America should f#ck off, and don't interfere while Russia is exterminating Banderlogs and going to end this war by achieving safe and lasting peace.

 

[Zavulon]

You have a lot of interesting and quaint theories, Zavulon, but unfortunately, they are not really true. I've known absolutely sane people, and sanity is absolute. But you have to be sane or have known truly sane thinking and people to understand that.

But I'll give you this: truly sane people are very far and few between these days.

I know a lot of "medically sane" people who declared they believe in really "insane" things - in Christ, in Allah, in Buddha, in Global Warming, in Nuclear Winter, in The Invisible Hand of Market, Bright Future of Communism, Illegal and Unprovoked Russian Invasion and so on...

Am I "medically sane"? Yes, I take health (including mental health) examinations at least twice a year, and the psychiatrist said that I'm sane. Do I understand that many other people (especially religious/ignorant ones) see my believes as "insane"? Yes, I do.
I don't think it is a problem, if we are discussing actual questions, not each others mental health.

 

[Zavulon]

We understood what happened very well.

No, you don't. That's exactly the problem.

The people of Eastern Europe finally stood up to the neighborhood bully, and they were better off for it.

Russians are not "naturally evil monsters", who's only goal is to do evil things - killing, abusing and supressing other people, who do evil because it is their nature. Russians are very practical men. They usually prefer to do good things for themselves, rather than do bad things to other people (sometimes, but quite rarely, those are the same things). And when they have the choice between "exclusive access to Polish market" and "almost free, non-discriminating access to America's market" and when the security risks are seen as acceptable - why not? They don't need additional push to understand what side of bread is covered with butter.

 

[toobfreak]

I know a lot of "medically sane" people who declared they believe in really "insane" things - in Christ, in Allah, in Buddha, in Global Warming, in Nuclear Winter, in The Invisible Hand of Market, Bright Future of Communism, Illegal and Unprovoked Russian Invasion and so on...

"Medical" sanity is a man-made legal definition that has little bearing on real sanity.

 

[Zavulon]

"Medical" sanity is a man-made legal definition that has little bearing on real sanity.

Yep. People need common understanding of the words like this. If we use your definition of "real sanity" as "ability to see reality as it is" - then no one is "really sane". And if he pretends that he really can do it - he is, highly likely, insane even in the "medical" meaning of the word.