Comparing the P-51, P-38, P-47

[Bleipriester]

I have found these interesting comparisons.

Bf-109 vs P-38 – Comparison – BVR – Dogfight
Fw-190 vs P-47 – Comparison – BVR – Dogfight
P-51 vs Me-262 – Comparison – BVR – Dogfight

Remarkable is that the Bf/Me 109 gets the most piston "Lethality Points" and ranks only second to the Me 262. The P-51 that I considered to be the best American fighter, sucks with only 60 Points compared to the 109´s 115 points.

If we rank the six planes by "Lethality Points" this would be the result:
Me 162 - 145 Points
Bf/Me 109 - 115 Points
P-47 - 80 Points
Fw 190 - 76 Points
P-38 - 75 Points
P-51 - 60 points

I have no clue what those "Lethality Points" are based on but I think it is the "Kill/Death ratio".

Compared to the P-51 the P-47 is somewhat ugly but I have to give it the point in the poll. Overall, it is difficult. The 109 is an outstanding aircraft produced in huge numbers but the Me 262 is a jet fighter.

Yeah, that's the problem with theory over reality. The reality is far different. As these "results" show.

The difference is whether the Russians are your ally or enemy. The numbers of the casualties that I posted before only underline the given ratings.
Equipment losses in World War II - Wikipedia

 

[westwall]

I have found these interesting comparisons.

Bf-109 vs P-38 – Comparison – BVR – Dogfight
Fw-190 vs P-47 – Comparison – BVR – Dogfight
P-51 vs Me-262 – Comparison – BVR – Dogfight

Remarkable is that the Bf/Me 109 gets the most piston "Lethality Points" and ranks only second to the Me 262. The P-51 that I considered to be the best American fighter, sucks with only 60 Points compared to the 109´s 115 points.

If we rank the six planes by "Lethality Points" this would be the result:
Me 162 - 145 Points
Bf/Me 109 - 115 Points
P-47 - 80 Points
Fw 190 - 76 Points
P-38 - 75 Points
P-51 - 60 points

I have no clue what those "Lethality Points" are based on but I think it is the "Kill/Death ratio".

Compared to the P-51 the P-47 is somewhat ugly but I have to give it the point in the poll. Overall, it is difficult. The 109 is an outstanding aircraft produced in huge numbers but the Me 262 is a jet fighter.

Yeah, that's the problem with theory over reality. The reality is far different. As these "results" show.

The difference is whether the Russians are your ally or enemy. The numbers of the casualties that I posted before only underline the given ratings.
Equipment losses in World War II - Wikipedia

The Soviets lost vast quantities of aircraft during the war because the pilots who flew them were expendable. They had very little time to train so were easy pickings. Gunther Rall was a friend and he said that a Soviet pilot would rate a one on the skill scale, an American or a Brit Commonwealth would rate a 6, and the Germans who survived a 7. He was an Experten so would probably rate a 9 or 10 on that scale.

 

[Daryl Hunt]

ME109G (Not BF) climb rate was 3,345 ft/min
P-38L climb rate was 4,750 ft/min and it was not as good as the P-38G and H.
P-51D was 3,200 ft/min, the H model was just below the P-38 for climb
P-47D was 3,180 ft/min
FW-190D was 3,300 ft/min

For some odd reason, when a ME-109 went vertical against the P-51D, the ME-109 developed a shaking before the P-51 and had to back out of the climb. Having a higher rate doesn't make it better. If the ME-109 was at low altitude, it could out climb many but as the altitude went up, it got worse. Only the P-38 could out climb a P-47 above 20K.

Using just the claimed numbers doesn't make an accurate picture. Quite a few Lutwaffe ME-109 pilots were lost trying this against all three of the Allied Long Ranged Fighters.

I have here a maximal climb rate of 3660 for the G variant. Sea Level climb rate is 3300. It is both 4113 for the 109 G-1. Maybe, what you claim to be a overrating is an underrating in reality.
P-38 Performance Tests
http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/me109/me109g.html

You did it again. You used the YP-38 figures for all other P-38s. The YP-38 had a pair of 1000 hp engines that never went into production. Starting with the D (used for testing as well as the E) the engines were 1125 hp. The F was 1125 and went into production. What it shows it that you will cherry pick to arrive with a conclusion that you have already formed. This type of relationships gets pilots killed when they believe it as fact. The fact is, the P-38G/H had the highest climb rate of all birds short of the ME163. While the ME109G, you are almost 1000 feet short. You want to compare apples with apples, stick with the current production models from the same time period. Therefore, you have to use the P-38G,H and J if you want to use your ME-109G.

I would rather use a ME-109F for a time to climb. The G got rather fat and really didn't perform as well as the F model. Just like the P-38H had a better time rate and higher top speed than the J and L models. Your ME-109G petered out around 20K feet for climb in comparison with all 3 of the Allied long ranged fighters. The P-51D started to lose it at 25K but the P-38 G and H Didn't lose it until over 40K. The only place the ME-109G had the advantage was from above 15K to less than 20K. This meant that you had about 1 minute of an advantage before you started to get into a really hasty buffer. The P-51D wold fly right up against it's limits without buffering. Meaning that the ME-109 Pilot avoided going vertical. He used his dive which was a little better than the P-51D to get out of dodge.

How about stopping cherry picking facts and compare apples to apples.

You are wrong. I do no cherry picking. Consult the page again and you see that it includes several variants of the P-38. The figures are taken from the P38G-1.

The power of the 109s varies from 680 PS (emergency power, ca 5 mins) of the first variant to 2000 PS (emergency power, ca 30 mins?) in the latest variant, the 109 K-4.

From your own cite:

WAR DEPARTMENT
AIR CORPS, MATERIEL DIVISION
Wright Field, Dayton, Ohio
February 12, 1941

MEMORANDUM REPORT ON
Lockheed YP-38 Airplane, A.C No. 39-689


Subject: Flight Test

The test wa done early 1941 and involved the YP-38. and the P-38D that never went into production. The YP had the 1000 hp enginess The J had 1600 hp engines. If you are going to use the ME108G and above, I get to use at least the P-38J-LO-15 and the P-38J-LO-25. Here is the writeup for the J-15.

http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/p-38/P-38J_performance_11march44.pdf

Your G and K end up sucking hind tit to both of these at all altitudes for climb, turn and speed. At close range, they are about equal in firepower. But step it off to 500 yds or better and the 20mm was far superior to the 108 cannon 30 mm in the 109. At about 500 yards and beyond, the 109 fire has already crossed and it couldn't hit the broad side of a barn.

The only saving grace is if you go into a hard dive. But you really can't tell the difference at a glance between a -15 or a -25. That dive works on the -15 but the -25 will follow you all the way down, shoot your tail off, beat you home and have dinner waiting for you.

I am not sure about your point. I compared the g with the g because the comparison was available. Of both the P38 is newer as I wrote.

Your date is wrong. The G did not go into service in 1942. The 109 for 1942 would be either the E or the F. But probably the E. It only had a 1200 hp motor with Injection. The G was being introduced in late 1942 but weren't in great numbers until early 1943. It would be facing the P-38G and H. And that would have been only a few months. September of 1943 meant the P-38J was being introduced in numbers. The P-51B was being introduced in October of 1943. Pretty much, any advantage the Gustov had was gone from that point on. Plus, the P-47 arrived on the scene. Germany had the advantage in numbers in 1942 and the first half of 1943 and it had the quality. But it's days were greatly numbered after than as the P-38J and P-51B/Cs made the scene shortly after. As good as the Gustav was, it became a tired design that Germany never recovered from. It would have been better to build more 190s.

You can't use just 4 or 5 months of okay times when you get overwhelmed after that. You are saying the Gustav was supreme but it wasn't. It's Pilots were until mid 1943 when the losses stacked up and they lost a whole slew of their pilots from then on. By Feb 1944, the war was lost when the 109s and 190s were bagged at will due to the AAF Pilots finally getting the training and the war time to compete. I am leaving out the Brits that also flew the P-51 and P-47 who already had the experience in combat.

The 109G had only a 90 minute combat flight time. That is to get there, do the fight and get home. No room for error. This why I left out the Spit since it was also short legged.

Your original claim was that the 109 out performed the P-51D in a climb. But reality is, the 109 dived and curved away and the P-51D was hard pressed to follow. But in the vertical going up, the 109G would get a severe buffet as it approached 20K feet and the Mustang II would not. Meaning, the 109G has to drop it's nose and dive to get energy back while the P-51D would still have energy and could fly for the kill. Not a place you want your enemy to be and many died in the 109Gs because they believe in the propoganda that the Luftwaffe was putting out.

 

[Bleipriester]

I have found these interesting comparisons.

Bf-109 vs P-38 – Comparison – BVR – Dogfight
Fw-190 vs P-47 – Comparison – BVR – Dogfight
P-51 vs Me-262 – Comparison – BVR – Dogfight

Remarkable is that the Bf/Me 109 gets the most piston "Lethality Points" and ranks only second to the Me 262. The P-51 that I considered to be the best American fighter, sucks with only 60 Points compared to the 109´s 115 points.

If we rank the six planes by "Lethality Points" this would be the result:
Me 162 - 145 Points
Bf/Me 109 - 115 Points
P-47 - 80 Points
Fw 190 - 76 Points
P-38 - 75 Points
P-51 - 60 points

I have no clue what those "Lethality Points" are based on but I think it is the "Kill/Death ratio".

Compared to the P-51 the P-47 is somewhat ugly but I have to give it the point in the poll. Overall, it is difficult. The 109 is an outstanding aircraft produced in huge numbers but the Me 262 is a jet fighter.

Yeah, that's the problem with theory over reality. The reality is far different. As these "results" show.

The difference is whether the Russians are your ally or enemy. The numbers of the casualties that I posted before only underline the given ratings.
Equipment losses in World War II - Wikipedia

The Soviets lost vast quantities of aircraft during the war because the pilots who flew them were expendable. They had very little time to train so were easy pickings. Gunther Rall was a friend and he said that a Soviet pilot would rate a one on the skill scale, an American or a Brit Commonwealth would rate a 6, and the Germans who survived a 7. He was an Experten so would probably rate a 9 or 10 on that scale.

The point is that the Eastern Front bound most of the German forces. When the allies landed in France, forces were redeployed to the West but that quickly changed. The point is not if the Russian pilots were bad. The point is that their number was endless. This applies even more on the ground. The Russians made extensive use of ground attack planes, as well.
For the frontiers Westen and Reich (bomber raids) applied a harsh limitation of aircraft usage due to fuel shortages. At times, only major attacks were countered and only most important tasks were done. Supply flights were limited to almost zero. Fuel shortages also affected the grounds forces heavily. Under this condition, the resistance the Germans offered the Allies was incredible. At the end of the war, only half or less of the required fuel was provided to the squadrons and ground forces.

 

[Bleipriester]

I have here a maximal climb rate of 3660 for the G variant. Sea Level climb rate is 3300. It is both 4113 for the 109 G-1. Maybe, what you claim to be a overrating is an underrating in reality.
P-38 Performance Tests
http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/me109/me109g.html

You did it again. You used the YP-38 figures for all other P-38s. The YP-38 had a pair of 1000 hp engines that never went into production. Starting with the D (used for testing as well as the E) the engines were 1125 hp. The F was 1125 and went into production. What it shows it that you will cherry pick to arrive with a conclusion that you have already formed. This type of relationships gets pilots killed when they believe it as fact. The fact is, the P-38G/H had the highest climb rate of all birds short of the ME163. While the ME109G, you are almost 1000 feet short. You want to compare apples with apples, stick with the current production models from the same time period. Therefore, you have to use the P-38G,H and J if you want to use your ME-109G.

I would rather use a ME-109F for a time to climb. The G got rather fat and really didn't perform as well as the F model. Just like the P-38H had a better time rate and higher top speed than the J and L models. Your ME-109G petered out around 20K feet for climb in comparison with all 3 of the Allied long ranged fighters. The P-51D started to lose it at 25K but the P-38 G and H Didn't lose it until over 40K. The only place the ME-109G had the advantage was from above 15K to less than 20K. This meant that you had about 1 minute of an advantage before you started to get into a really hasty buffer. The P-51D wold fly right up against it's limits without buffering. Meaning that the ME-109 Pilot avoided going vertical. He used his dive which was a little better than the P-51D to get out of dodge.

How about stopping cherry picking facts and compare apples to apples.

You are wrong. I do no cherry picking. Consult the page again and you see that it includes several variants of the P-38. The figures are taken from the P38G-1.

The power of the 109s varies from 680 PS (emergency power, ca 5 mins) of the first variant to 2000 PS (emergency power, ca 30 mins?) in the latest variant, the 109 K-4.

From your own cite:

WAR DEPARTMENT
AIR CORPS, MATERIEL DIVISION
Wright Field, Dayton, Ohio
February 12, 1941

MEMORANDUM REPORT ON
Lockheed YP-38 Airplane, A.C No. 39-689


Subject: Flight Test

The test wa done early 1941 and involved the YP-38. and the P-38D that never went into production. The YP had the 1000 hp enginess The J had 1600 hp engines. If you are going to use the ME108G and above, I get to use at least the P-38J-LO-15 and the P-38J-LO-25. Here is the writeup for the J-15.

http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/p-38/P-38J_performance_11march44.pdf

Your G and K end up sucking hind tit to both of these at all altitudes for climb, turn and speed. At close range, they are about equal in firepower. But step it off to 500 yds or better and the 20mm was far superior to the 108 cannon 30 mm in the 109. At about 500 yards and beyond, the 109 fire has already crossed and it couldn't hit the broad side of a barn.

The only saving grace is if you go into a hard dive. But you really can't tell the difference at a glance between a -15 or a -25. That dive works on the -15 but the -25 will follow you all the way down, shoot your tail off, beat you home and have dinner waiting for you.

I am not sure about your point. I compared the g with the g because the comparison was available. Of both the P38 is newer as I wrote.

Your date is wrong. The G did not go into service in 1942. The 109 for 1942 would be either the E or the F. But probably the E. It only had a 1200 hp motor with Injection. The G was being introduced in late 1942 but weren't in great numbers until early 1943. It would be facing the P-38G and H. And that would have been only a few months. September of 1943 meant the P-38J was being introduced in numbers. The P-51B was being introduced in October of 1943. Pretty much, any advantage the Gustov had was gone from that point on. Plus, the P-47 arrived on the scene. Germany had the advantage in numbers in 1942 and the first half of 1943 and it had the quality. But it's days were greatly numbered after than as the P-38J and P-51B/Cs made the scene shortly after. As good as the Gustav was, it became a tired design that Germany never recovered from. It would have been better to build more 190s.

You can't use just 4 or 5 months of okay times when you get overwhelmed after that. You are saying the Gustav was supreme but it wasn't. It's Pilots were until mid 1943 when the losses stacked up and they lost a whole slew of their pilots from then on. By Feb 1944, the war was lost when the 109s and 190s were bagged at will due to the AAF Pilots finally getting the training and the war time to compete. I am leaving out the Brits that also flew the P-51 and P-47 who already had the experience in combat.

The 109G had only a 90 minute combat flight time. That is to get there, do the fight and get home. No room for error. This why I left out the Spit since it was also short legged.

Your original claim was that the 109 out performed the P-51D in a climb. But reality is, the 109 dived and curved away and the P-51D was hard pressed to follow. But in the vertical going up, the 109G would get a severe buffet as it approached 20K feet and the Mustang II would not. Meaning, the 109G has to drop it's nose and dive to get energy back while the P-51D would still have energy and could fly for the kill. Not a place you want your enemy to be and many died in the 109Gs because they believe in the propoganda that the Luftwaffe was putting out.

My date is right. I wrote it is 1943:
Comparing the P-51, P-38, P-47

The 109 could also be equipped with a bunch of "expansion packs" according to the situation. It was just the most capable plane and this is why it ranks second to the Me 262. Stuff you come up with, like flight time or power, needs to be backed up by sources.

 

[Daryl Hunt]

You did it again. You used the YP-38 figures for all other P-38s. The YP-38 had a pair of 1000 hp engines that never went into production. Starting with the D (used for testing as well as the E) the engines were 1125 hp. The F was 1125 and went into production. What it shows it that you will cherry pick to arrive with a conclusion that you have already formed. This type of relationships gets pilots killed when they believe it as fact. The fact is, the P-38G/H had the highest climb rate of all birds short of the ME163. While the ME109G, you are almost 1000 feet short. You want to compare apples with apples, stick with the current production models from the same time period. Therefore, you have to use the P-38G,H and J if you want to use your ME-109G.

I would rather use a ME-109F for a time to climb. The G got rather fat and really didn't perform as well as the F model. Just like the P-38H had a better time rate and higher top speed than the J and L models. Your ME-109G petered out around 20K feet for climb in comparison with all 3 of the Allied long ranged fighters. The P-51D started to lose it at 25K but the P-38 G and H Didn't lose it until over 40K. The only place the ME-109G had the advantage was from above 15K to less than 20K. This meant that you had about 1 minute of an advantage before you started to get into a really hasty buffer. The P-51D wold fly right up against it's limits without buffering. Meaning that the ME-109 Pilot avoided going vertical. He used his dive which was a little better than the P-51D to get out of dodge.

How about stopping cherry picking facts and compare apples to apples.

You are wrong. I do no cherry picking. Consult the page again and you see that it includes several variants of the P-38. The figures are taken from the P38G-1.

The power of the 109s varies from 680 PS (emergency power, ca 5 mins) of the first variant to 2000 PS (emergency power, ca 30 mins?) in the latest variant, the 109 K-4.

From your own cite:

WAR DEPARTMENT
AIR CORPS, MATERIEL DIVISION
Wright Field, Dayton, Ohio
February 12, 1941

MEMORANDUM REPORT ON
Lockheed YP-38 Airplane, A.C No. 39-689


Subject: Flight Test

The test wa done early 1941 and involved the YP-38. and the P-38D that never went into production. The YP had the 1000 hp enginess The J had 1600 hp engines. If you are going to use the ME108G and above, I get to use at least the P-38J-LO-15 and the P-38J-LO-25. Here is the writeup for the J-15.

http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/p-38/P-38J_performance_11march44.pdf

Your G and K end up sucking hind tit to both of these at all altitudes for climb, turn and speed. At close range, they are about equal in firepower. But step it off to 500 yds or better and the 20mm was far superior to the 108 cannon 30 mm in the 109. At about 500 yards and beyond, the 109 fire has already crossed and it couldn't hit the broad side of a barn.

The only saving grace is if you go into a hard dive. But you really can't tell the difference at a glance between a -15 or a -25. That dive works on the -15 but the -25 will follow you all the way down, shoot your tail off, beat you home and have dinner waiting for you.

I am not sure about your point. I compared the g with the g because the comparison was available. Of both the P38 is newer as I wrote.

Your date is wrong. The G did not go into service in 1942. The 109 for 1942 would be either the E or the F. But probably the E. It only had a 1200 hp motor with Injection. The G was being introduced in late 1942 but weren't in great numbers until early 1943. It would be facing the P-38G and H. And that would have been only a few months. September of 1943 meant the P-38J was being introduced in numbers. The P-51B was being introduced in October of 1943. Pretty much, any advantage the Gustov had was gone from that point on. Plus, the P-47 arrived on the scene. Germany had the advantage in numbers in 1942 and the first half of 1943 and it had the quality. But it's days were greatly numbered after than as the P-38J and P-51B/Cs made the scene shortly after. As good as the Gustav was, it became a tired design that Germany never recovered from. It would have been better to build more 190s.

You can't use just 4 or 5 months of okay times when you get overwhelmed after that. You are saying the Gustav was supreme but it wasn't. It's Pilots were until mid 1943 when the losses stacked up and they lost a whole slew of their pilots from then on. By Feb 1944, the war was lost when the 109s and 190s were bagged at will due to the AAF Pilots finally getting the training and the war time to compete. I am leaving out the Brits that also flew the P-51 and P-47 who already had the experience in combat.

The 109G had only a 90 minute combat flight time. That is to get there, do the fight and get home. No room for error. This why I left out the Spit since it was also short legged.

Your original claim was that the 109 out performed the P-51D in a climb. But reality is, the 109 dived and curved away and the P-51D was hard pressed to follow. But in the vertical going up, the 109G would get a severe buffet as it approached 20K feet and the Mustang II would not. Meaning, the 109G has to drop it's nose and dive to get energy back while the P-51D would still have energy and could fly for the kill. Not a place you want your enemy to be and many died in the 109Gs because they believe in the propoganda that the Luftwaffe was putting out.

My date is right. I wrote it is 1943:
Comparing the P-51, P-38, P-47

The 109 could also be equipped with a bunch of "expansion packs" according to the situation. It was just the most capable plane and this is why it ranks second to the Me 262. Stuff you come up with, like flight time or power, needs to be backed up by sources.

You use 1943. Got a big newsflash for you: The P-51D was introduced in mid 1944 and so was the P-38L. The ME-109G-6 began manufacture in Feb 1943 and was out in number by May 1943. There were NO P-51 Merlin powered P-51s when during the time you keep going to. Your comparison would mean you should be using the P-51A Allison powered and that wasn't a great fighter against anything above 15K.

During the fighter sweeps of Feb 1944, there weren't that many Merlin powered Mustang IIs in service but they were going to be plenty later on. The Primary birds doing the fighter sweeps were the P-38J-15 and the P-47 and they were highly successful against both the 109G6 and 190A. If the G-6 were so wonderful then it should have won that matchup. Let's ace it, in Feb 1944, the G-6 out numbered both the P-38 and the P-47. I doubt if the Luftwaffe Pilots were that bad. Something else had to attribute it.

 

[Bleipriester]

You use 1943. Got a big newsflash for you: The P-51D was introduced in mid 1944 and so was the P-38L.

So this is even the opposite of your claim.

The ME-109G-6 began manufacture in Feb 1943 and was out in number by May 1943. There were NO P-51 Merlin powered P-51s when during the time you keep going to. Your comparison would mean you should be using the P-51A Allison powered and that wasn't a great fighter against anything above 15K.

During the fighter sweeps of Feb 1944, there weren't that many Merlin powered Mustang IIs in service but they were going to be plenty later on. The Primary birds doing the fighter sweeps were the P-38J-15 and the P-47 and they were highly successful against both the 109G6 and 190A. If the G-6 were so wonderful then it should have won that matchup. Let's ace it, in Feb 1944, the G-6 out numbered both the P-38 and the P-47. I doubt if the Luftwaffe Pilots were that bad. Something else had to attribute it.

No, the 109 did not outnumber other planes. Maybe, it was more common than each of the American planes alone but it regularly fought massively outnumbered by the opponents.

 

[Daryl Hunt]

You use 1943. Got a big newsflash for you: The P-51D was introduced in mid 1944 and so was the P-38L.

So this is even the opposite of your claim.

The ME-109G-6 began manufacture in Feb 1943 and was out in number by May 1943. There were NO P-51 Merlin powered P-51s when during the time you keep going to. Your comparison would mean you should be using the P-51A Allison powered and that wasn't a great fighter against anything above 15K.

During the fighter sweeps of Feb 1944, there weren't that many Merlin powered Mustang IIs in service but they were going to be plenty later on. The Primary birds doing the fighter sweeps were the P-38J-15 and the P-47 and they were highly successful against both the 109G6 and 190A. If the G-6 were so wonderful then it should have won that matchup. Let's ace it, in Feb 1944, the G-6 out numbered both the P-38 and the P-47. I doubt if the Luftwaffe Pilots were that bad. Something else had to attribute it.

No, the 109 did not outnumber other planes. Maybe, it was more common than each of the American planes alone but it regularly fought massively outnumbered by the opponents.

You are the one that keeps trying to compare an early German Fighter with a lawte modeled US fighter. Yoru claim is that the 109G-6 was better than the late models but you keep using 1942 info for the US fighters and the 1944 info for the German Fighter. In 1942, they were still not training the P-38 pilots. Teach them on a single trainer and then dump them into combat with a much more technical twin engine fighter. It wasn't the 109G that was better. It was the training of the German PIlots that were better.

Until the P-47 and the P-51B/C were in great numbers, the only Pure Fighter to operate over Germany in 1942 until late 1943. Most of the P-38s were transferred to the MTO to freeze the Italy to NA German supply chain. That left only one unit of P-38G/Hs. They kept the experienced pilots and ground support in the MTO leaving newbies in the ETO. While the P-47 could amass 700+ fighters for escort, they had to drop off near the German borders. They would be replaced at that point by 7 (count 'em) P-38s. They would be facing hundreds of 109s and 190s. The problem was that the 8th AF still believed in the Bomber Battle Formations. Ater NA fell, most of the P-38s from NA were either sent to either the PTO or kept in NA to attack Italy. Only a small number were sent to the ETO.

"Despite these revolting developments, the pilots of the 8th knew that the P-38 could outturn, outclimb, outrun and outfight anybody's airplane in the air so they set about rectifying their problems."
Capt. Heiden

 

[Bleipriester]

You are the one that keeps trying to compare an early German Fighter with a lawte modeled US fighter. Yoru claim is that the 109G-6 was better than the late models but you keep using 1942 info for the US fighters and the 1944 info for the German Fighter.

No, I do nothing like that. You are having a hard time facing unbiased facts, instead.

In 1942, they were still not training the P-38 pilots. Teach them on a single trainer and then dump them into combat with a much more technical twin engine fighter. It wasn't the 109G that was better. It was the training of the German PIlots that were better.

Until the P-47 and the P-51B/C were in great numbers, the only Pure Fighter to operate over Germany in 1942 until late 1943. Most of the P-38s were transferred to the MTO to freeze the Italy to NA German supply chain. That left only one unit of P-38G/Hs. They kept the experienced pilots and ground support in the MTO leaving newbies in the ETO. While the P-47 could amass 700+ fighters for escort, they had to drop off near the German borders. They would be replaced at that point by 7 (count 'em) P-38s. They would be facing hundreds of 109s and 190s. The problem was that the 8th AF still believed in the Bomber Battle Formations. Ater NA fell, most of the P-38s from NA were either sent to either the PTO or kept in NA to attack Italy. Only a small number were sent to the ETO.

"Despite these revolting developments, the pilots of the 8th knew that the P-38 could outturn, outclimb, outrun and outfight anybody's airplane in the air so they set about rectifying their problems."
Capt. Heiden

I think it is madness to send 7 fighters against hundreds and the responsible commander should be held accountable for the inevitable casualties and material losses.
However, bomber raids were characterized by huge losses and the crews had a life expectancy of a few missions. The Fw 190 attacked the bombers and they were accompanied by Me 109 that protected them from their escorts.

 

[Daryl Hunt]

You are the one that keeps trying to compare an early German Fighter with a lawte modeled US fighter. Yoru claim is that the 109G-6 was better than the late models but you keep using 1942 info for the US fighters and the 1944 info for the German Fighter.

No, I do nothing like that. You are having a hard time facing unbiased facts, instead.

In 1942, they were still not training the P-38 pilots. Teach them on a single trainer and then dump them into combat with a much more technical twin engine fighter. It wasn't the 109G that was better. It was the training of the German PIlots that were better.

Until the P-47 and the P-51B/C were in great numbers, the only Pure Fighter to operate over Germany in 1942 until late 1943. Most of the P-38s were transferred to the MTO to freeze the Italy to NA German supply chain. That left only one unit of P-38G/Hs. They kept the experienced pilots and ground support in the MTO leaving newbies in the ETO. While the P-47 could amass 700+ fighters for escort, they had to drop off near the German borders. They would be replaced at that point by 7 (count 'em) P-38s. They would be facing hundreds of 109s and 190s. The problem was that the 8th AF still believed in the Bomber Battle Formations. Ater NA fell, most of the P-38s from NA were either sent to either the PTO or kept in NA to attack Italy. Only a small number were sent to the ETO.

"Despite these revolting developments, the pilots of the 8th knew that the P-38 could outturn, outclimb, outrun and outfight anybody's airplane in the air so they set about rectifying their problems."
Capt. Heiden

I think it is madness to send 7 fighters against hundreds and the responsible commander should be held accountable for the inevitable casualties and material losses.
However, bomber raids were characterized by huge losses and the crews had a life expectancy of a few missions. The Fw 190 attacked the bombers and they were accompanied by Me 109 that protected them from their escorts.

And yet, those 7 fighters helped to get more bombers through. Without them, it may have been a higher loss than 60 percent that it was. Those 7 P-38s faced 50 enemy fighters and made them blink. And making them blink meant more bombers getting over their targets. The Attrition factor ended up being in the Allied favor. When the J-15 showed up middle 43, the aborts on the P-38 started to lessen, the Pilots were getting seasoned (just surviving made them seasoned) and the losses of the 190 and 109 started to go up. To give you an idea, the Luftwaffe Fighter Mass avoided the many P-47s that dropped off around the French/German border. What continued to harm the P-38G-J until early 1944 was tactics where they had to stick with the bombers. After that, the fighters went on fighter hunts ahead of the Bombers. In early 1944, the 190s and 109s still out numbered the long ranged fighters. But a pair of P-38s would sneak up on the luftwaffe fighters as they were forming up and attack two or three and then leave. That used the poor tactics of the Luftwaffe where the 109 and 190 would then start looking for what just hit them. It made them swarm. And this allowed more of the bombers to get through. Read up on Robin Olds where he bagged 5 in one day with an H model and became an ace in one day. He did exactly what I said on that day. It was the tactic change that allowed the P-38 to start bagging the 109s and 190s at a higher rate. Even with bad tactics, in the MTA and ETO, the P-38 ended up with a 1.5 to one kill rate in it's favor. It just took them a bit to get there. It wasn't the 109 or 190 that had any effect in the raising of those numbers, it was the pilots learning to fly the P-38 which WAS a superior fighter as was the P-51B/C and P-47D. But until early 1944, it was all the P-38 and not in any great numbers. The biggest improvement for the P-38 was the introduction of the modified E model and making it the Piggy Back for training. It meant that the newbies were better trained and live a few days longer.

Mechanically, the P-38F-H could have had maintenance done at front line service but it was never authorized. All the parts were there. I think that the power that be wanted to P-38 to fail in the ETO and damned near got their wishes. For instance, the loss of the C-54 that was carrying 500 dive breaks says it all. Yes, it was a terrible accident when the Spit mistook the C-54 for a Condor (shit happens) but instead of sending another 500, they waited until the P-38J-LO-25 came out of production. They could have had a over 470 mph P-38 but wouldn't take it out of production for about 2 weeks for them to tool up for the new engine and 4 bladed paddle prop. Meanwhile, the P-38s in the MTO and PTO were getting many of the fixes in the field that the ETO could have been doing. Plus, the fuel was different in the ETO where it was the 100 Octane and the P-38 required the octane booster in the ETO which gummed up the turbosuperchargers and blew up engines and caused overspeeds and runways. The P-47 was having a little of same problem with predetonation. When the AAF started supplying the Fuel (the 150 octane) many of the problems went away. It was a series of errors by the Leadership, not the P-38 itself. Even so, it still maintained a 1.5 to one kill rate until later on in the ETO. But a 1.5 to one when you are out numbered 11-1 on the mission doesn't sound real promising.

When flown and maintained properly, the P-38 could hold it's own with anything in the skies.

 

[Bleipriester]

You are the one that keeps trying to compare an early German Fighter with a lawte modeled US fighter. Yoru claim is that the 109G-6 was better than the late models but you keep using 1942 info for the US fighters and the 1944 info for the German Fighter.

No, I do nothing like that. You are having a hard time facing unbiased facts, instead.

In 1942, they were still not training the P-38 pilots. Teach them on a single trainer and then dump them into combat with a much more technical twin engine fighter. It wasn't the 109G that was better. It was the training of the German PIlots that were better.

Until the P-47 and the P-51B/C were in great numbers, the only Pure Fighter to operate over Germany in 1942 until late 1943. Most of the P-38s were transferred to the MTO to freeze the Italy to NA German supply chain. That left only one unit of P-38G/Hs. They kept the experienced pilots and ground support in the MTO leaving newbies in the ETO. While the P-47 could amass 700+ fighters for escort, they had to drop off near the German borders. They would be replaced at that point by 7 (count 'em) P-38s. They would be facing hundreds of 109s and 190s. The problem was that the 8th AF still believed in the Bomber Battle Formations. Ater NA fell, most of the P-38s from NA were either sent to either the PTO or kept in NA to attack Italy. Only a small number were sent to the ETO.

"Despite these revolting developments, the pilots of the 8th knew that the P-38 could outturn, outclimb, outrun and outfight anybody's airplane in the air so they set about rectifying their problems."
Capt. Heiden

I think it is madness to send 7 fighters against hundreds and the responsible commander should be held accountable for the inevitable casualties and material losses.
However, bomber raids were characterized by huge losses and the crews had a life expectancy of a few missions. The Fw 190 attacked the bombers and they were accompanied by Me 109 that protected them from their escorts.

And yet, those 7 fighters helped to get more bombers through. Without them, it may have been a higher loss than 60 percent that it was. Those 7 P-38s faced 50 enemy fighters and made them blink. And making them blink meant more bombers getting over their targets. The Attrition factor ended up being in the Allied favor. When the J-15 showed up middle 43, the aborts on the P-38 started to lessen, the Pilots were getting seasoned (just surviving made them seasoned) and the losses of the 190 and 109 started to go up. To give you an idea, the Luftwaffe Fighter Mass avoided the many P-47s that dropped off around the French/German border. What continued to harm the P-38G-J until early 1944 was tactics where they had to stick with the bombers. After that, the fighters went on fighter hunts ahead of the Bombers. In early 1944, the 190s and 109s still out numbered the long ranged fighters. But a pair of P-38s would sneak up on the luftwaffe fighters as they were forming up and attack two or three and then leave. That used the poor tactics of the Luftwaffe where the 109 and 190 would then start looking for what just hit them. It made them swarm. And this allowed more of the bombers to get through. Read up on Robin Olds where he bagged 5 in one day with an H model and became an ace in one day. He did exactly what I said on that day. It was the tactic change that allowed the P-38 to start bagging the 109s and 190s at a higher rate. Even with bad tactics, in the MTA and ETO, the P-38 ended up with a 1.5 to one kill rate in it's favor. It just took them a bit to get there. It wasn't the 109 or 190 that had any effect in the raising of those numbers, it was the pilots learning to fly the P-38 which WAS a superior fighter as was the P-51B/C and P-47D. But until early 1944, it was all the P-38 and not in any great numbers. The biggest improvement for the P-38 was the introduction of the modified E model and making it the Piggy Back for training. It meant that the newbies were better trained and live a few days longer.

Mechanically, the P-38F-H could have had maintenance done at front line service but it was never authorized. All the parts were there. I think that the power that be wanted to P-38 to fail in the ETO and damned near got their wishes. For instance, the loss of the C-54 that was carrying 500 dive breaks says it all. Yes, it was a terrible accident when the Spit mistook the C-54 for a Condor (shit happens) but instead of sending another 500, they waited until the P-38J-LO-25 came out of production. They could have had a over 470 mph P-38 but wouldn't take it out of production for about 2 weeks for them to tool up for the new engine and 4 bladed paddle prop. Meanwhile, the P-38s in the MTO and PTO were getting many of the fixes in the field that the ETO could have been doing. Plus, the fuel was different in the ETO where it was the 100 Octane and the P-38 required the octane booster in the ETO which gummed up the turbosuperchargers and blew up engines and caused overspeeds and runways. The P-47 was having a little of same problem with predetonation. When the AAF started supplying the Fuel (the 150 octane) many of the problems went away. It was a series of errors by the Leadership, not the P-38 itself. Even so, it still maintained a 1.5 to one kill rate until later on in the ETO. But a 1.5 to one when you are out numbered 11-1 on the mission doesn't sound real promising.

When flown and maintained properly, the P-38 could hold it's own with anything in the skies.

When you think of poor tactics you have to take into consideration that the goal was to shoot down as many bombers as possible. Interception was not the primary task. And when bombers returned from their target they would be awaited by Luftwaffe squadrons as well. This was not about gaining an advantage but about protecting the cities, infrastructure and war economy. The bomber crews were referred to as "Luftgangster" (air gangsters).
When a German aircraft closed in on a bomber it became an easy target. So it had be protected as well. Thus the attacks on the bombers reduced the planes available to deal with the escorts.

In the KTB of the OKW (War diary of the High Command of the Wehrmacht), they have the numbers of incoming allied aircraft and the numbers of German aircraft that confronted them day by day. It was almost daily about 1100 - 1300 American aircraft plus hundreds of British confronted by several hundred German fighters in different missions. It is clear, that the German planes were vastly outnumbered and they often had more casualties. Also, the fuel situation grounded many available planes. Jet fighter flights are highlighted in the KTB, for example some were used to bomb the Remagen bridge.

 

[westwall]

You are wrong. I do no cherry picking. Consult the page again and you see that it includes several variants of the P-38. The figures are taken from the P38G-1.

The power of the 109s varies from 680 PS (emergency power, ca 5 mins) of the first variant to 2000 PS (emergency power, ca 30 mins?) in the latest variant, the 109 K-4.

From your own cite:

WAR DEPARTMENT
AIR CORPS, MATERIEL DIVISION
Wright Field, Dayton, Ohio
February 12, 1941

MEMORANDUM REPORT ON
Lockheed YP-38 Airplane, A.C No. 39-689


Subject: Flight Test

The test wa done early 1941 and involved the YP-38. and the P-38D that never went into production. The YP had the 1000 hp enginess The J had 1600 hp engines. If you are going to use the ME108G and above, I get to use at least the P-38J-LO-15 and the P-38J-LO-25. Here is the writeup for the J-15.

http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/p-38/P-38J_performance_11march44.pdf

Your G and K end up sucking hind tit to both of these at all altitudes for climb, turn and speed. At close range, they are about equal in firepower. But step it off to 500 yds or better and the 20mm was far superior to the 108 cannon 30 mm in the 109. At about 500 yards and beyond, the 109 fire has already crossed and it couldn't hit the broad side of a barn.

The only saving grace is if you go into a hard dive. But you really can't tell the difference at a glance between a -15 or a -25. That dive works on the -15 but the -25 will follow you all the way down, shoot your tail off, beat you home and have dinner waiting for you.

I am not sure about your point. I compared the g with the g because the comparison was available. Of both the P38 is newer as I wrote.

Your date is wrong. The G did not go into service in 1942. The 109 for 1942 would be either the E or the F. But probably the E. It only had a 1200 hp motor with Injection. The G was being introduced in late 1942 but weren't in great numbers until early 1943. It would be facing the P-38G and H. And that would have been only a few months. September of 1943 meant the P-38J was being introduced in numbers. The P-51B was being introduced in October of 1943. Pretty much, any advantage the Gustov had was gone from that point on. Plus, the P-47 arrived on the scene. Germany had the advantage in numbers in 1942 and the first half of 1943 and it had the quality. But it's days were greatly numbered after than as the P-38J and P-51B/Cs made the scene shortly after. As good as the Gustav was, it became a tired design that Germany never recovered from. It would have been better to build more 190s.

You can't use just 4 or 5 months of okay times when you get overwhelmed after that. You are saying the Gustav was supreme but it wasn't. It's Pilots were until mid 1943 when the losses stacked up and they lost a whole slew of their pilots from then on. By Feb 1944, the war was lost when the 109s and 190s were bagged at will due to the AAF Pilots finally getting the training and the war time to compete. I am leaving out the Brits that also flew the P-51 and P-47 who already had the experience in combat.

The 109G had only a 90 minute combat flight time. That is to get there, do the fight and get home. No room for error. This why I left out the Spit since it was also short legged.

Your original claim was that the 109 out performed the P-51D in a climb. But reality is, the 109 dived and curved away and the P-51D was hard pressed to follow. But in the vertical going up, the 109G would get a severe buffet as it approached 20K feet and the Mustang II would not. Meaning, the 109G has to drop it's nose and dive to get energy back while the P-51D would still have energy and could fly for the kill. Not a place you want your enemy to be and many died in the 109Gs because they believe in the propoganda that the Luftwaffe was putting out.

My date is right. I wrote it is 1943:
Comparing the P-51, P-38, P-47

The 109 could also be equipped with a bunch of "expansion packs" according to the situation. It was just the most capable plane and this is why it ranks second to the Me 262. Stuff you come up with, like flight time or power, needs to be backed up by sources.

You use 1943. Got a big newsflash for you: The P-51D was introduced in mid 1944 and so was the P-38L. The ME-109G-6 began manufacture in Feb 1943 and was out in number by May 1943. There were NO P-51 Merlin powered P-51s when during the time you keep going to. Your comparison would mean you should be using the P-51A Allison powered and that wasn't a great fighter against anything above 15K.

During the fighter sweeps of Feb 1944, there weren't that many Merlin powered Mustang IIs in service but they were going to be plenty later on. The Primary birds doing the fighter sweeps were the P-38J-15 and the P-47 and they were highly successful against both the 109G6 and 190A. If the G-6 were so wonderful then it should have won that matchup. Let's ace it, in Feb 1944, the G-6 out numbered both the P-38 and the P-47. I doubt if the Luftwaffe Pilots were that bad. Something else had to attribute it.

You are incorrect, the P-51B had the Merlin and it was first flown in October of 1942 in the UK, and November of 1942 in the US. Pretty much every P-51 in the ETO by the middle of 1943 was Merlin powered.

 

[Daryl Hunt]

From your own cite:

WAR DEPARTMENT
AIR CORPS, MATERIEL DIVISION
Wright Field, Dayton, Ohio
February 12, 1941

MEMORANDUM REPORT ON
Lockheed YP-38 Airplane, A.C No. 39-689


Subject: Flight Test

The test wa done early 1941 and involved the YP-38. and the P-38D that never went into production. The YP had the 1000 hp enginess The J had 1600 hp engines. If you are going to use the ME108G and above, I get to use at least the P-38J-LO-15 and the P-38J-LO-25. Here is the writeup for the J-15.

http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/p-38/P-38J_performance_11march44.pdf

Your G and K end up sucking hind tit to both of these at all altitudes for climb, turn and speed. At close range, they are about equal in firepower. But step it off to 500 yds or better and the 20mm was far superior to the 108 cannon 30 mm in the 109. At about 500 yards and beyond, the 109 fire has already crossed and it couldn't hit the broad side of a barn.

The only saving grace is if you go into a hard dive. But you really can't tell the difference at a glance between a -15 or a -25. That dive works on the -15 but the -25 will follow you all the way down, shoot your tail off, beat you home and have dinner waiting for you.

I am not sure about your point. I compared the g with the g because the comparison was available. Of both the P38 is newer as I wrote.

Your date is wrong. The G did not go into service in 1942. The 109 for 1942 would be either the E or the F. But probably the E. It only had a 1200 hp motor with Injection. The G was being introduced in late 1942 but weren't in great numbers until early 1943. It would be facing the P-38G and H. And that would have been only a few months. September of 1943 meant the P-38J was being introduced in numbers. The P-51B was being introduced in October of 1943. Pretty much, any advantage the Gustov had was gone from that point on. Plus, the P-47 arrived on the scene. Germany had the advantage in numbers in 1942 and the first half of 1943 and it had the quality. But it's days were greatly numbered after than as the P-38J and P-51B/Cs made the scene shortly after. As good as the Gustav was, it became a tired design that Germany never recovered from. It would have been better to build more 190s.

You can't use just 4 or 5 months of okay times when you get overwhelmed after that. You are saying the Gustav was supreme but it wasn't. It's Pilots were until mid 1943 when the losses stacked up and they lost a whole slew of their pilots from then on. By Feb 1944, the war was lost when the 109s and 190s were bagged at will due to the AAF Pilots finally getting the training and the war time to compete. I am leaving out the Brits that also flew the P-51 and P-47 who already had the experience in combat.

The 109G had only a 90 minute combat flight time. That is to get there, do the fight and get home. No room for error. This why I left out the Spit since it was also short legged.

Your original claim was that the 109 out performed the P-51D in a climb. But reality is, the 109 dived and curved away and the P-51D was hard pressed to follow. But in the vertical going up, the 109G would get a severe buffet as it approached 20K feet and the Mustang II would not. Meaning, the 109G has to drop it's nose and dive to get energy back while the P-51D would still have energy and could fly for the kill. Not a place you want your enemy to be and many died in the 109Gs because they believe in the propoganda that the Luftwaffe was putting out.

My date is right. I wrote it is 1943:
Comparing the P-51, P-38, P-47

The 109 could also be equipped with a bunch of "expansion packs" according to the situation. It was just the most capable plane and this is why it ranks second to the Me 262. Stuff you come up with, like flight time or power, needs to be backed up by sources.

You use 1943. Got a big newsflash for you: The P-51D was introduced in mid 1944 and so was the P-38L. The ME-109G-6 began manufacture in Feb 1943 and was out in number by May 1943. There were NO P-51 Merlin powered P-51s when during the time you keep going to. Your comparison would mean you should be using the P-51A Allison powered and that wasn't a great fighter against anything above 15K.

During the fighter sweeps of Feb 1944, there weren't that many Merlin powered Mustang IIs in service but they were going to be plenty later on. The Primary birds doing the fighter sweeps were the P-38J-15 and the P-47 and they were highly successful against both the 109G6 and 190A. If the G-6 were so wonderful then it should have won that matchup. Let's ace it, in Feb 1944, the G-6 out numbered both the P-38 and the P-47. I doubt if the Luftwaffe Pilots were that bad. Something else had to attribute it.

You are incorrect, the P-51B had the Merlin and it was first flown in October of 1942 in the UK, and November of 1942 in the US. Pretty much every P-51 in the ETO by the middle of 1943 was Merlin powered.

That's a might fine time machine your have considering the first P-51B wasn't manufactured until September of 43 and didn't show up in great numbers until early 1944. The Cs first came in Dec 43 and didn't arrive in great numbers until AFTER Feb 44.

 

[westwall]

I am not sure about your point. I compared the g with the g because the comparison was available. Of both the P38 is newer as I wrote.

Your date is wrong. The G did not go into service in 1942. The 109 for 1942 would be either the E or the F. But probably the E. It only had a 1200 hp motor with Injection. The G was being introduced in late 1942 but weren't in great numbers until early 1943. It would be facing the P-38G and H. And that would have been only a few months. September of 1943 meant the P-38J was being introduced in numbers. The P-51B was being introduced in October of 1943. Pretty much, any advantage the Gustov had was gone from that point on. Plus, the P-47 arrived on the scene. Germany had the advantage in numbers in 1942 and the first half of 1943 and it had the quality. But it's days were greatly numbered after than as the P-38J and P-51B/Cs made the scene shortly after. As good as the Gustav was, it became a tired design that Germany never recovered from. It would have been better to build more 190s.

You can't use just 4 or 5 months of okay times when you get overwhelmed after that. You are saying the Gustav was supreme but it wasn't. It's Pilots were until mid 1943 when the losses stacked up and they lost a whole slew of their pilots from then on. By Feb 1944, the war was lost when the 109s and 190s were bagged at will due to the AAF Pilots finally getting the training and the war time to compete. I am leaving out the Brits that also flew the P-51 and P-47 who already had the experience in combat.

The 109G had only a 90 minute combat flight time. That is to get there, do the fight and get home. No room for error. This why I left out the Spit since it was also short legged.

Your original claim was that the 109 out performed the P-51D in a climb. But reality is, the 109 dived and curved away and the P-51D was hard pressed to follow. But in the vertical going up, the 109G would get a severe buffet as it approached 20K feet and the Mustang II would not. Meaning, the 109G has to drop it's nose and dive to get energy back while the P-51D would still have energy and could fly for the kill. Not a place you want your enemy to be and many died in the 109Gs because they believe in the propoganda that the Luftwaffe was putting out.

My date is right. I wrote it is 1943:
Comparing the P-51, P-38, P-47

The 109 could also be equipped with a bunch of "expansion packs" according to the situation. It was just the most capable plane and this is why it ranks second to the Me 262. Stuff you come up with, like flight time or power, needs to be backed up by sources.

You use 1943. Got a big newsflash for you: The P-51D was introduced in mid 1944 and so was the P-38L. The ME-109G-6 began manufacture in Feb 1943 and was out in number by May 1943. There were NO P-51 Merlin powered P-51s when during the time you keep going to. Your comparison would mean you should be using the P-51A Allison powered and that wasn't a great fighter against anything above 15K.

During the fighter sweeps of Feb 1944, there weren't that many Merlin powered Mustang IIs in service but they were going to be plenty later on. The Primary birds doing the fighter sweeps were the P-38J-15 and the P-47 and they were highly successful against both the 109G6 and 190A. If the G-6 were so wonderful then it should have won that matchup. Let's ace it, in Feb 1944, the G-6 out numbered both the P-38 and the P-47. I doubt if the Luftwaffe Pilots were that bad. Something else had to attribute it.

You are incorrect, the P-51B had the Merlin and it was first flown in October of 1942 in the UK, and November of 1942 in the US. Pretty much every P-51 in the ETO by the middle of 1943 was Merlin powered.

That's a might fine time machine your have considering the first P-51B wasn't manufactured until September of 43 and didn't show up in great numbers until early 1944. The Cs first came in Dec 43 and didn't arrive in great numbers until AFTER Feb 44.

You are correct about the factory production models, but the depots were converting them in 1942 and getting them out to the various units. By the end of the first quarter of 1943 most of the Mustangs in the UK had been converted to the B model.

 

[Daryl Hunt]

Your date is wrong. The G did not go into service in 1942. The 109 for 1942 would be either the E or the F. But probably the E. It only had a 1200 hp motor with Injection. The G was being introduced in late 1942 but weren't in great numbers until early 1943. It would be facing the P-38G and H. And that would have been only a few months. September of 1943 meant the P-38J was being introduced in numbers. The P-51B was being introduced in October of 1943. Pretty much, any advantage the Gustov had was gone from that point on. Plus, the P-47 arrived on the scene. Germany had the advantage in numbers in 1942 and the first half of 1943 and it had the quality. But it's days were greatly numbered after than as the P-38J and P-51B/Cs made the scene shortly after. As good as the Gustav was, it became a tired design that Germany never recovered from. It would have been better to build more 190s.

You can't use just 4 or 5 months of okay times when you get overwhelmed after that. You are saying the Gustav was supreme but it wasn't. It's Pilots were until mid 1943 when the losses stacked up and they lost a whole slew of their pilots from then on. By Feb 1944, the war was lost when the 109s and 190s were bagged at will due to the AAF Pilots finally getting the training and the war time to compete. I am leaving out the Brits that also flew the P-51 and P-47 who already had the experience in combat.

The 109G had only a 90 minute combat flight time. That is to get there, do the fight and get home. No room for error. This why I left out the Spit since it was also short legged.

Your original claim was that the 109 out performed the P-51D in a climb. But reality is, the 109 dived and curved away and the P-51D was hard pressed to follow. But in the vertical going up, the 109G would get a severe buffet as it approached 20K feet and the Mustang II would not. Meaning, the 109G has to drop it's nose and dive to get energy back while the P-51D would still have energy and could fly for the kill. Not a place you want your enemy to be and many died in the 109Gs because they believe in the propoganda that the Luftwaffe was putting out.

My date is right. I wrote it is 1943:
Comparing the P-51, P-38, P-47

The 109 could also be equipped with a bunch of "expansion packs" according to the situation. It was just the most capable plane and this is why it ranks second to the Me 262. Stuff you come up with, like flight time or power, needs to be backed up by sources.

You use 1943. Got a big newsflash for you: The P-51D was introduced in mid 1944 and so was the P-38L. The ME-109G-6 began manufacture in Feb 1943 and was out in number by May 1943. There were NO P-51 Merlin powered P-51s when during the time you keep going to. Your comparison would mean you should be using the P-51A Allison powered and that wasn't a great fighter against anything above 15K.

During the fighter sweeps of Feb 1944, there weren't that many Merlin powered Mustang IIs in service but they were going to be plenty later on. The Primary birds doing the fighter sweeps were the P-38J-15 and the P-47 and they were highly successful against both the 109G6 and 190A. If the G-6 were so wonderful then it should have won that matchup. Let's ace it, in Feb 1944, the G-6 out numbered both the P-38 and the P-47. I doubt if the Luftwaffe Pilots were that bad. Something else had to attribute it.

You are incorrect, the P-51B had the Merlin and it was first flown in October of 1942 in the UK, and November of 1942 in the US. Pretty much every P-51 in the ETO by the middle of 1943 was Merlin powered.

That's a might fine time machine your have considering the first P-51B wasn't manufactured until September of 43 and didn't show up in great numbers until early 1944. The Cs first came in Dec 43 and didn't arrive in great numbers until AFTER Feb 44.

You are correct about the factory production models, but the depots were converting them in 1942 and getting them out to the various units. By the end of the first quarter of 1943 most of the Mustangs in the UK had been converted to the B model.

You didn't convert an A to a B. Not without some serious airframe and sheet metal. The ducting alone prevents this. That idea was scrapped after it was tried early on. Same went for converting the B/Cs to Ds. Wiki has the dates wrong. The first B didn't come off the assembly plant until September of 1943. The C didn't come off until December of 1943. Both were being setup months earlier, yes. But it takes to to ramp up.

BTW, that 50 mph increase in speed had little to do with the engine. That increase in speed had more to do with the mods on the Aircraft itself. In fact, the Allison had a bit more oomph. But the B/C was more streamline than the A so the B/C was a bit faster. During the test of the stripped XP-51B, it hit 443 mph. The same speed that the stock H model P-38 was able to hit. The production B was able to hit 433 while the Production P-38J was slowed down to about 413 due to the beard. These two wreaked havoc over Germany while the P-47 was nailing anything not nailed down over France.

 

[westwall]

My date is right. I wrote it is 1943:
Comparing the P-51, P-38, P-47

The 109 could also be equipped with a bunch of "expansion packs" according to the situation. It was just the most capable plane and this is why it ranks second to the Me 262. Stuff you come up with, like flight time or power, needs to be backed up by sources.

You use 1943. Got a big newsflash for you: The P-51D was introduced in mid 1944 and so was the P-38L. The ME-109G-6 began manufacture in Feb 1943 and was out in number by May 1943. There were NO P-51 Merlin powered P-51s when during the time you keep going to. Your comparison would mean you should be using the P-51A Allison powered and that wasn't a great fighter against anything above 15K.

During the fighter sweeps of Feb 1944, there weren't that many Merlin powered Mustang IIs in service but they were going to be plenty later on. The Primary birds doing the fighter sweeps were the P-38J-15 and the P-47 and they were highly successful against both the 109G6 and 190A. If the G-6 were so wonderful then it should have won that matchup. Let's ace it, in Feb 1944, the G-6 out numbered both the P-38 and the P-47. I doubt if the Luftwaffe Pilots were that bad. Something else had to attribute it.

You are incorrect, the P-51B had the Merlin and it was first flown in October of 1942 in the UK, and November of 1942 in the US. Pretty much every P-51 in the ETO by the middle of 1943 was Merlin powered.

That's a might fine time machine your have considering the first P-51B wasn't manufactured until September of 43 and didn't show up in great numbers until early 1944. The Cs first came in Dec 43 and didn't arrive in great numbers until AFTER Feb 44.

You are correct about the factory production models, but the depots were converting them in 1942 and getting them out to the various units. By the end of the first quarter of 1943 most of the Mustangs in the UK had been converted to the B model.

You didn't convert an A to a B. Not without some serious airframe and sheet metal. The ducting alone prevents this. That idea was scrapped after it was tried early on. Same went for converting the B/Cs to Ds. Wiki has the dates wrong. The first B didn't come off the assembly plant until September of 1943. The C didn't come off until December of 1943. Both were being setup months earlier, yes. But it takes to to ramp up.

BTW, that 50 mph increase in speed had little to do with the engine. That increase in speed had more to do with the mods on the Aircraft itself. In fact, the Allison had a bit more oomph. But the B/C was more streamline than the A so the B/C was a bit faster. During the test of the stripped XP-51B, it hit 443 mph. The same speed that the stock H model P-38 was able to hit. The production B was able to hit 433 while the Production P-38J was slowed down to about 413 due to the beard. These two wreaked havoc over Germany while the P-47 was nailing anything not nailed down over France.

Sure they did. They were constantly upgrading aircraft. That's why there are virtually no Spit MKI's, and why there is but a single P-51 A Model. As they went in for maintenance they were brought up to the newest standards. Even B and C models were converted to D models and that required quite a bit of work to accomplish as they had to basically rebuild the aft part of the cockpit.

I know some of the ground crew who did that work and they are very proud of what they were able to do. Granted, this could only get done in the UK as they had the facilities for it, but do it they did!

And the speed increase from the Allison to the Merlin was 100 mph at altitude, IIRC they compared them at 30,000 feet.

 

[Daryl Hunt]

You use 1943. Got a big newsflash for you: The P-51D was introduced in mid 1944 and so was the P-38L. The ME-109G-6 began manufacture in Feb 1943 and was out in number by May 1943. There were NO P-51 Merlin powered P-51s when during the time you keep going to. Your comparison would mean you should be using the P-51A Allison powered and that wasn't a great fighter against anything above 15K.

During the fighter sweeps of Feb 1944, there weren't that many Merlin powered Mustang IIs in service but they were going to be plenty later on. The Primary birds doing the fighter sweeps were the P-38J-15 and the P-47 and they were highly successful against both the 109G6 and 190A. If the G-6 were so wonderful then it should have won that matchup. Let's ace it, in Feb 1944, the G-6 out numbered both the P-38 and the P-47. I doubt if the Luftwaffe Pilots were that bad. Something else had to attribute it.

You are incorrect, the P-51B had the Merlin and it was first flown in October of 1942 in the UK, and November of 1942 in the US. Pretty much every P-51 in the ETO by the middle of 1943 was Merlin powered.

That's a might fine time machine your have considering the first P-51B wasn't manufactured until September of 43 and didn't show up in great numbers until early 1944. The Cs first came in Dec 43 and didn't arrive in great numbers until AFTER Feb 44.

You are correct about the factory production models, but the depots were converting them in 1942 and getting them out to the various units. By the end of the first quarter of 1943 most of the Mustangs in the UK had been converted to the B model.

You didn't convert an A to a B. Not without some serious airframe and sheet metal. The ducting alone prevents this. That idea was scrapped after it was tried early on. Same went for converting the B/Cs to Ds. Wiki has the dates wrong. The first B didn't come off the assembly plant until September of 1943. The C didn't come off until December of 1943. Both were being setup months earlier, yes. But it takes to to ramp up.

BTW, that 50 mph increase in speed had little to do with the engine. That increase in speed had more to do with the mods on the Aircraft itself. In fact, the Allison had a bit more oomph. But the B/C was more streamline than the A so the B/C was a bit faster. During the test of the stripped XP-51B, it hit 443 mph. The same speed that the stock H model P-38 was able to hit. The production B was able to hit 433 while the Production P-38J was slowed down to about 413 due to the beard. These two wreaked havoc over Germany while the P-47 was nailing anything not nailed down over France.

Sure they did. They were constantly upgrading aircraft. That's why there are virtually no Spit MKI's, and why there is but a single P-51 A Model. As they went in for maintenance they were brought up to the newest standards. Even B and C models were converted to D models and that required quite a bit of work to accomplish as they had to basically rebuild the aft part of the cockpit.

I know some of the ground crew who did that work and they are very proud of what they were able to do. Granted, this could only get done in the UK as they had the facilities for it, but do it they did!

And the speed increase from the Allison to the Merlin was 100 mph at altitude, IIRC they compared them at 30,000 feet.

There were only 4 P-51Xs. Those made such an impact that Britain ordered 400 P-51Bs that had the mods already done. North American P-51B/C Mustang should just about remove all doubts.

 

[westwall]

You are incorrect, the P-51B had the Merlin and it was first flown in October of 1942 in the UK, and November of 1942 in the US. Pretty much every P-51 in the ETO by the middle of 1943 was Merlin powered.

That's a might fine time machine your have considering the first P-51B wasn't manufactured until September of 43 and didn't show up in great numbers until early 1944. The Cs first came in Dec 43 and didn't arrive in great numbers until AFTER Feb 44.

You are correct about the factory production models, but the depots were converting them in 1942 and getting them out to the various units. By the end of the first quarter of 1943 most of the Mustangs in the UK had been converted to the B model.

You didn't convert an A to a B. Not without some serious airframe and sheet metal. The ducting alone prevents this. That idea was scrapped after it was tried early on. Same went for converting the B/Cs to Ds. Wiki has the dates wrong. The first B didn't come off the assembly plant until September of 1943. The C didn't come off until December of 1943. Both were being setup months earlier, yes. But it takes to to ramp up.

BTW, that 50 mph increase in speed had little to do with the engine. That increase in speed had more to do with the mods on the Aircraft itself. In fact, the Allison had a bit more oomph. But the B/C was more streamline than the A so the B/C was a bit faster. During the test of the stripped XP-51B, it hit 443 mph. The same speed that the stock H model P-38 was able to hit. The production B was able to hit 433 while the Production P-38J was slowed down to about 413 due to the beard. These two wreaked havoc over Germany while the P-47 was nailing anything not nailed down over France.

Sure they did. They were constantly upgrading aircraft. That's why there are virtually no Spit MKI's, and why there is but a single P-51 A Model. As they went in for maintenance they were brought up to the newest standards. Even B and C models were converted to D models and that required quite a bit of work to accomplish as they had to basically rebuild the aft part of the cockpit.

I know some of the ground crew who did that work and they are very proud of what they were able to do. Granted, this could only get done in the UK as they had the facilities for it, but do it they did!

And the speed increase from the Allison to the Merlin was 100 mph at altitude, IIRC they compared them at 30,000 feet.

There were only 4 P-51Xs. Those made such an impact that Britain ordered 400 P-51Bs that had the mods already done. North American P-51B/C Mustang should just about remove all doubts.

Indeed. Though it appears my memory was off by 200 feet.


"In August of 1942, 400 P-51Bs were ordered on the basis of NAA's performance estimates, even before the first example had flown.

The first XP-51B was flown by Bob Chilton on November 30, 1942. It was initially flown without armament. The performance improvement was nothing short of astounding. The XP-51B achieved a level speed of 441 mph at 29,800 feet, over 100 mph faster than the Allison-engined P-51 at that altitude. At all heights, the rate of climb was approximately doubled."

 

[Daryl Hunt]

That's a might fine time machine your have considering the first P-51B wasn't manufactured until September of 43 and didn't show up in great numbers until early 1944. The Cs first came in Dec 43 and didn't arrive in great numbers until AFTER Feb 44.

You are correct about the factory production models, but the depots were converting them in 1942 and getting them out to the various units. By the end of the first quarter of 1943 most of the Mustangs in the UK had been converted to the B model.

You didn't convert an A to a B. Not without some serious airframe and sheet metal. The ducting alone prevents this. That idea was scrapped after it was tried early on. Same went for converting the B/Cs to Ds. Wiki has the dates wrong. The first B didn't come off the assembly plant until September of 1943. The C didn't come off until December of 1943. Both were being setup months earlier, yes. But it takes to to ramp up.

BTW, that 50 mph increase in speed had little to do with the engine. That increase in speed had more to do with the mods on the Aircraft itself. In fact, the Allison had a bit more oomph. But the B/C was more streamline than the A so the B/C was a bit faster. During the test of the stripped XP-51B, it hit 443 mph. The same speed that the stock H model P-38 was able to hit. The production B was able to hit 433 while the Production P-38J was slowed down to about 413 due to the beard. These two wreaked havoc over Germany while the P-47 was nailing anything not nailed down over France.

Sure they did. They were constantly upgrading aircraft. That's why there are virtually no Spit MKI's, and why there is but a single P-51 A Model. As they went in for maintenance they were brought up to the newest standards. Even B and C models were converted to D models and that required quite a bit of work to accomplish as they had to basically rebuild the aft part of the cockpit.

I know some of the ground crew who did that work and they are very proud of what they were able to do. Granted, this could only get done in the UK as they had the facilities for it, but do it they did!

And the speed increase from the Allison to the Merlin was 100 mph at altitude, IIRC they compared them at 30,000 feet.

There were only 4 P-51Xs. Those made such an impact that Britain ordered 400 P-51Bs that had the mods already done. North American P-51B/C Mustang should just about remove all doubts.

Indeed. Though it appears my memory was off by 200 feet.


"In August of 1942, 400 P-51Bs were ordered on the basis of NAA's performance estimates, even before the first example had flown.

The first XP-51B was flown by Bob Chilton on November 30, 1942. It was initially flown without armament. The performance improvement was nothing short of astounding. The XP-51B achieved a level speed of 441 mph at 29,800 feet, over 100 mph faster than the Allison-engined P-51 at that altitude. At all heights, the rate of climb was approximately doubled."

Not a difficult thing to do since the P-51A was a normal aspirated engine. It may be able to zoom that high but it would have exactly nothing left once it got there. Just a quick trip down.

 

[Bleipriester]

Another interesting plane was the Do 335. The design allowed it to be propelled by two engines without having a reduced agility like conventional two-engined aircraft. The book that I know it from reads: "When there is something the German engineers can´t be accused of, its conservatism":

Bottom left: Ar 234

The two 1750 hp resp. 2000 hp engines gave it a maximum speed of 775 km/h* (475 mph), making it the fastest piston aircraft.

* No official data preserved, therefor, the exact maximum speed can differ.