Comparing the P-51, P-38, P-47

[Daryl Hunt]

The three aircraft mentioned were not all fighters alone. The 51 was closest to a pure fighter the 38 was close too but had a strong ground attack and the 47 was almost never used as a fighter it was close air support.

In bomber escort, all 3 were involved all the way to the end. It went something like this.

The Bombers took off and were met by the P-47s that could escort them deep into France. Later, the P-38s took off and would meet the bomber formation somewhere in france. The P-38 would go until deep into Germany. The P-51 would pick it up from there. No fighter had the ability to go with the bombers all the way. The gas involved while with the bombers would suck up the drop tanks. When the fighters left the bombers, the all would head for the ground and do strafing.

When the doctrine was changed, it allowed the fighters to go ahead of the bombers and do fighter sweeps. The Luftwaffe fighters had only about 90 minutes of serious flight time. They had to take the time to get a large formation before the bombers got there. The trick was to hit them during the bunchup time. Even if it's only two allied fighters attacking from the rear, it usually broke up the formation. You just lost 3 or 4 enemy fighters and the rest gets very paranoid. You have a couple of experienced pilots in the mix but the rest are newbies and panic easily. The Allied fighter would hit them, get a couple or three kills and then boogie out since the surprise is over. 50 to 3 is not good odds. On the way home, the fighters will hit railyards, trains, ferries and trucks. The last fighter group would back away just before the flak fields. By then, the Luftwaffe didn't go after bombers that are leaving once the bombers hits the target (or not) and exits out the flak field.

 

[Bleipriester]

I chose the P-38 due to it being the most versatile of the 3.

The P-51 is slightly better at high altitudes as a pure fighter, second comes the P-38 as long as the altitude is below 20,000 feet. Below 20,000 feet, the P-38 rarely gets into the compression ability problem. Above that, it can get a newbie pilot killed fast in a dive. But above 25K, the P-47 is far superior to the other 3.

As for claiming the P-51 was the "Only" long ranged fighter, the P-38J+ had a much longer range. The first fighters above Berlin were P-38G models. They were supposed to escort bombers but the bombers were scrubbed. Since the P-38s were already over Germany, they proceeded to Berlin and did strafing runs. This was mid 1943.

If you are doing Recon, the P-38 wins hands down. It's counter rotating props made it very, very smooth in comparison (the P-47 was the rough one). It meant the pictures could be taken at a higher altitude and be clearer due to the lack of motion on the camera. Even so, there was a 75% loss on the P-38 recon birds since they were not armed and had to fly at specific altitudes without changing their altitude or direction while filming. And they were 2000 lbs lighter with all the armor removed. They relied on speed but still.....

As for strafing, the P-47 barely edges out the P-38. The P-47 packed 8 50 cals and could take severe damage from the the ground forces. Meanwhile, the P-38 carried 4 50 cals and was the only WWII Usaf fighter to carry a cannon. The P-47 used convergent fire meaning the bullet paths crossed at about 250 yards. But if you are operating at less than that in ground attack, it doesn't mean a thing. The P-38 had straight trajectories meaning all guns were aimed directly forward including the cannon. At longer Ranges the P-38 was superior but a closer range (due to the rugged construction) the P-47 gets the nod. The P-51 was also used for ground attack but it wasn't nearly as effective as the other 2 due it only having 6 50 cals and it's inability to absorb damage.

Now, let's go onto being able to absorb punishment and still get home. The King is the P-47 with it's radial engine and heavy armor hands down. Hitting his engine may reduce his power but he can be flinging oil with a couple of jug blown off and still get home. The P-38 has two engines. The only way to get him not to come home due to engines is to take out both since he is still very flight worthy on only one (find a cloud bank and boogie home). The worst is the P-51 since he has only one engine. He can be taken out just by hitting his radiator. To give you an idea, more P-51s were lost due to this than either the P-38 or the P-47 combined.

You also have to look at the period of the War. Until the P-47 arrived in mass in early 1943, the only long ranged fighter was the P-38. In 1942, the P-38 faced experienced Luftaffe Pilots at a 11-1 rate. And they tried to use the P-38 by having him fly with the bombers. Here the P-38 is flying in a zig zag formation with the bombers at 200 kts when they are jumped by the 109 doing a dive zoom at 320 kts. The P-38 has to spool up to get up to speed. During that time, bombers are lost and so are the lumbering P-38s. Same goes for the P-47 flying the same mission. Early 1944, that doctrine was changed and allowed the fighters to fly ahead of the bombers and disrupt Luftwaffen Fighters. Early 1944 was when the bulk of the P-51s came into service. And you have to know that the flight training of a P-38 pilot was extremely poor until 1944. By the time the P-51B/C showed up, the heavy lifting was already done and the Luftwaffen was running low on experienced pilots and had a shortage of fuel. Not having the P-51 at all would have changed nothing except a lot of P-38 and P-47 pilots lives.

There is no such thing as a "long range fighter". The Brits made fuel bags of paper that were attached to the American fighters.

Necessity is the Mother of Invention: Paper Drop Tanks of WWII

These were made in England for the 8th AF and used on the P-47 and P-51. The size was 108 gallons. Metal was priceless in Britain. Why use metal when you won't be bringing it home anyway. These tanks couldn't be reused and likely would not survive the landing. Even if there was an air abort, these tanks were jettisoned.

Meanwhile, other tanks of other sizes were being manufactured in the US out of metals.

The tanks were used on long ranged fighters to get them even longer range. For instance, the P-38 could carry 2 tanks like the other 2 could as well. But in the Pacific, it started out as the 165gal all the way up to the 310 gal. The tanks just got you there. You had to get back without the tanks. The P-38 could carry 620 gal of external fuel to augment it's 410 gal internal fuel. Sounds like a one way trip. It's not. Those tanks were used to allow the bird to zig and zag, change altitudes and avoid certain areas to get where it was going. Or it allowed them to do bomber escort which sucked tremendous amounts of fuel. The P-51 didn't have enough internals to get it to berlin and back in a straight line, much less, as a bomber escort.

All 3 of these fighters used drop tanks. One or two. But to carry a drop tank also took away one bomb station.

The P-38 was used most extensively and successfully in the Pacific theater, where it proved ideally suited, combining excellent performance with exceptional range and the added reliability of two engines for long missions over water.

"Kurt Bühligen, third highest scoring German pilot on the Western front with 112 victories, recalled later: "The P-38 fighter (and the B-24) were easy to burn. Once in Africa we were six and met eight P-38s and shot down seven. One sees a great distance in Africa and our observers and flak people called in sightings and we could get altitude first and they were low and slow." [69] General der Jagdflieger Adolf Galland was unimpressed with the P-38, declaring "it had similar shortcomings in combat to our Bf 110, our fighters were clearly superior to it.""

Lockheed P-38 Lightning - Wikipedia

The P 38 is an early stage WWII plane. But it is indeed a long range fighter.

 

[Daryl Hunt]

I chose the P-38 due to it being the most versatile of the 3.

The P-51 is slightly better at high altitudes as a pure fighter, second comes the P-38 as long as the altitude is below 20,000 feet. Below 20,000 feet, the P-38 rarely gets into the compression ability problem. Above that, it can get a newbie pilot killed fast in a dive. But above 25K, the P-47 is far superior to the other 3.

As for claiming the P-51 was the "Only" long ranged fighter, the P-38J+ had a much longer range. The first fighters above Berlin were P-38G models. They were supposed to escort bombers but the bombers were scrubbed. Since the P-38s were already over Germany, they proceeded to Berlin and did strafing runs. This was mid 1943.

If you are doing Recon, the P-38 wins hands down. It's counter rotating props made it very, very smooth in comparison (the P-47 was the rough one). It meant the pictures could be taken at a higher altitude and be clearer due to the lack of motion on the camera. Even so, there was a 75% loss on the P-38 recon birds since they were not armed and had to fly at specific altitudes without changing their altitude or direction while filming. And they were 2000 lbs lighter with all the armor removed. They relied on speed but still.....

As for strafing, the P-47 barely edges out the P-38. The P-47 packed 8 50 cals and could take severe damage from the the ground forces. Meanwhile, the P-38 carried 4 50 cals and was the only WWII Usaf fighter to carry a cannon. The P-47 used convergent fire meaning the bullet paths crossed at about 250 yards. But if you are operating at less than that in ground attack, it doesn't mean a thing. The P-38 had straight trajectories meaning all guns were aimed directly forward including the cannon. At longer Ranges the P-38 was superior but a closer range (due to the rugged construction) the P-47 gets the nod. The P-51 was also used for ground attack but it wasn't nearly as effective as the other 2 due it only having 6 50 cals and it's inability to absorb damage.

Now, let's go onto being able to absorb punishment and still get home. The King is the P-47 with it's radial engine and heavy armor hands down. Hitting his engine may reduce his power but he can be flinging oil with a couple of jug blown off and still get home. The P-38 has two engines. The only way to get him not to come home due to engines is to take out both since he is still very flight worthy on only one (find a cloud bank and boogie home). The worst is the P-51 since he has only one engine. He can be taken out just by hitting his radiator. To give you an idea, more P-51s were lost due to this than either the P-38 or the P-47 combined.

You also have to look at the period of the War. Until the P-47 arrived in mass in early 1943, the only long ranged fighter was the P-38. In 1942, the P-38 faced experienced Luftaffe Pilots at a 11-1 rate. And they tried to use the P-38 by having him fly with the bombers. Here the P-38 is flying in a zig zag formation with the bombers at 200 kts when they are jumped by the 109 doing a dive zoom at 320 kts. The P-38 has to spool up to get up to speed. During that time, bombers are lost and so are the lumbering P-38s. Same goes for the P-47 flying the same mission. Early 1944, that doctrine was changed and allowed the fighters to fly ahead of the bombers and disrupt Luftwaffen Fighters. Early 1944 was when the bulk of the P-51s came into service. And you have to know that the flight training of a P-38 pilot was extremely poor until 1944. By the time the P-51B/C showed up, the heavy lifting was already done and the Luftwaffen was running low on experienced pilots and had a shortage of fuel. Not having the P-51 at all would have changed nothing except a lot of P-38 and P-47 pilots lives.

There is no such thing as a "long range fighter". The Brits made fuel bags of paper that were attached to the American fighters.

Necessity is the Mother of Invention: Paper Drop Tanks of WWII

These were made in England for the 8th AF and used on the P-47 and P-51. The size was 108 gallons. Metal was priceless in Britain. Why use metal when you won't be bringing it home anyway. These tanks couldn't be reused and likely would not survive the landing. Even if there was an air abort, these tanks were jettisoned.

Meanwhile, other tanks of other sizes were being manufactured in the US out of metals.

The tanks were used on long ranged fighters to get them even longer range. For instance, the P-38 could carry 2 tanks like the other 2 could as well. But in the Pacific, it started out as the 165gal all the way up to the 310 gal. The tanks just got you there. You had to get back without the tanks. The P-38 could carry 620 gal of external fuel to augment it's 410 gal internal fuel. Sounds like a one way trip. It's not. Those tanks were used to allow the bird to zig and zag, change altitudes and avoid certain areas to get where it was going. Or it allowed them to do bomber escort which sucked tremendous amounts of fuel. The P-51 didn't have enough internals to get it to berlin and back in a straight line, much less, as a bomber escort.

All 3 of these fighters used drop tanks. One or two. But to carry a drop tank also took away one bomb station.

The P-38 was used most extensively and successfully in the Pacific theater, where it proved ideally suited, combining excellent performance with exceptional range and the added reliability of two engines for long missions over water.

"Kurt Bühligen, third highest scoring German pilot on the Western front with 112 victories, recalled later: "The P-38 fighter (and the B-24) were easy to burn. Once in Africa we were six and met eight P-38s and shot down seven. One sees a great distance in Africa and our observers and flak people called in sightings and we could get altitude first and they were low and slow." [69] General der Jagdflieger Adolf Galland was unimpressed with the P-38, declaring "it had similar shortcomings in combat to our Bf 110, our fighters were clearly superior to it.""

Lockheed P-38 Lightning - Wikipedia

The P 38 is an early stage WWII plane. But it is indeed a long range fighter.

It failed so badly that it stopped almost all the cargo planes and supply ships from getting to port. It failed so badly that it took out many runways that the 109 operated from. What your German Pilot was probably talking about was hitting it when it was loaded down with bombs on a bombing mission. Now, have the 109 meet it at 15K with it not carrying the bombs.

Early on, many of the 38 pilots were extremely green on twin engine birds. They trained on single engine trainers. And they were met with 11-1 odds against them. The areas it operated in NA meant it didn't have any cover when on the bombing runs. This period was what I call the "Meat Grinder". The introduction of the P-47 in NA was a huge improvement and moved the P-38 into top cover when operating with the P-47s. As the number of P-47s started showing up, the odds changed fast until the allied fighters in NA ended up with a 11-1 ratio in their favor. Each day, the Luftwaffe available air fields were slowly pushed back until the Spit, P-40 and Hurricane could no longer operate over enemy territory. This left the P-38 on it's own until the P-47s showed up. It's not that the P-38 was a bad bird. It was that it was so overwhelmed that many were lost. But as the months went on, the Luftwaffe was whittled down a little each day.

The short comings were trained out once they figured out that the P-38 pilots needed special training. The Piggyback P-38 was a godsend where the pilots trained on a real P-38 instead of just being dumped into the seat of the single seater.

Your comment that the P-38 was an early warbird was correct. But so was the 109. Both just got better through constant upgrades. But in early 1943 the P-38 out shined the 109. It's equal was the 190 for a few months. Then the P-38J-LO-25 (dive brakes) hit the skies in numbers and the 190 was left out to dry. Until the advent of the P-51D, the main high altitude long ranged fighter was the P-38J-LO-15 (no dive brakes) with it's fowler flaps. The way the 109 and 190 avoided their lunches from being eaten was by going in to a high speed dive that the P-38 Pilots were forbidden to follow. When the -25 hit (and the upgrades to the -15 to -25 standard, there were quite a few luftwaffe pilots that died when they tried that same tried and true maneuver. And, for once, the P-38 Pilots got the training they needed to excel in their birds. It wasn't just the P-38 that got better, it was also the P-51 and the P-47. In the end, those 3 operated over enemy held areas with impunity. All 3 were involved in the early 1944 fighter sweeps that all but wiped out the Luftwaffe.

This is why I listed only those 3. The impact those 3 had for the war effort was more pronounced than they other fighters. There wasn't enough P-51B/Cs to take the P-38 out of the bomber escort business. When the P-51D arrived, it arrived with a vengence in numbers with over 8000 produced as compared to the C/B version of about 3000. But the C/B versions had some pretty serious teething problems that were, for the most part, ironed out in the D.

Until the P-38J, there were only 2210 P-38s made (F, G, H). There were many more P-47s built in 1943 than all the P-38s and P-51B/Cs combined.

BTW, the Luftaffen Pilots all claimed that the 190 was the equal to the P-51D. Going by what they said you can chalk it up as Public Relations for their pilots.

 

[Bleipriester]

I chose the P-38 due to it being the most versatile of the 3.

The P-51 is slightly better at high altitudes as a pure fighter, second comes the P-38 as long as the altitude is below 20,000 feet. Below 20,000 feet, the P-38 rarely gets into the compression ability problem. Above that, it can get a newbie pilot killed fast in a dive. But above 25K, the P-47 is far superior to the other 3.

As for claiming the P-51 was the "Only" long ranged fighter, the P-38J+ had a much longer range. The first fighters above Berlin were P-38G models. They were supposed to escort bombers but the bombers were scrubbed. Since the P-38s were already over Germany, they proceeded to Berlin and did strafing runs. This was mid 1943.

If you are doing Recon, the P-38 wins hands down. It's counter rotating props made it very, very smooth in comparison (the P-47 was the rough one). It meant the pictures could be taken at a higher altitude and be clearer due to the lack of motion on the camera. Even so, there was a 75% loss on the P-38 recon birds since they were not armed and had to fly at specific altitudes without changing their altitude or direction while filming. And they were 2000 lbs lighter with all the armor removed. They relied on speed but still.....

As for strafing, the P-47 barely edges out the P-38. The P-47 packed 8 50 cals and could take severe damage from the the ground forces. Meanwhile, the P-38 carried 4 50 cals and was the only WWII Usaf fighter to carry a cannon. The P-47 used convergent fire meaning the bullet paths crossed at about 250 yards. But if you are operating at less than that in ground attack, it doesn't mean a thing. The P-38 had straight trajectories meaning all guns were aimed directly forward including the cannon. At longer Ranges the P-38 was superior but a closer range (due to the rugged construction) the P-47 gets the nod. The P-51 was also used for ground attack but it wasn't nearly as effective as the other 2 due it only having 6 50 cals and it's inability to absorb damage.

Now, let's go onto being able to absorb punishment and still get home. The King is the P-47 with it's radial engine and heavy armor hands down. Hitting his engine may reduce his power but he can be flinging oil with a couple of jug blown off and still get home. The P-38 has two engines. The only way to get him not to come home due to engines is to take out both since he is still very flight worthy on only one (find a cloud bank and boogie home). The worst is the P-51 since he has only one engine. He can be taken out just by hitting his radiator. To give you an idea, more P-51s were lost due to this than either the P-38 or the P-47 combined.

You also have to look at the period of the War. Until the P-47 arrived in mass in early 1943, the only long ranged fighter was the P-38. In 1942, the P-38 faced experienced Luftaffe Pilots at a 11-1 rate. And they tried to use the P-38 by having him fly with the bombers. Here the P-38 is flying in a zig zag formation with the bombers at 200 kts when they are jumped by the 109 doing a dive zoom at 320 kts. The P-38 has to spool up to get up to speed. During that time, bombers are lost and so are the lumbering P-38s. Same goes for the P-47 flying the same mission. Early 1944, that doctrine was changed and allowed the fighters to fly ahead of the bombers and disrupt Luftwaffen Fighters. Early 1944 was when the bulk of the P-51s came into service. And you have to know that the flight training of a P-38 pilot was extremely poor until 1944. By the time the P-51B/C showed up, the heavy lifting was already done and the Luftwaffen was running low on experienced pilots and had a shortage of fuel. Not having the P-51 at all would have changed nothing except a lot of P-38 and P-47 pilots lives.

There is no such thing as a "long range fighter". The Brits made fuel bags of paper that were attached to the American fighters.

Necessity is the Mother of Invention: Paper Drop Tanks of WWII

These were made in England for the 8th AF and used on the P-47 and P-51. The size was 108 gallons. Metal was priceless in Britain. Why use metal when you won't be bringing it home anyway. These tanks couldn't be reused and likely would not survive the landing. Even if there was an air abort, these tanks were jettisoned.

Meanwhile, other tanks of other sizes were being manufactured in the US out of metals.

The tanks were used on long ranged fighters to get them even longer range. For instance, the P-38 could carry 2 tanks like the other 2 could as well. But in the Pacific, it started out as the 165gal all the way up to the 310 gal. The tanks just got you there. You had to get back without the tanks. The P-38 could carry 620 gal of external fuel to augment it's 410 gal internal fuel. Sounds like a one way trip. It's not. Those tanks were used to allow the bird to zig and zag, change altitudes and avoid certain areas to get where it was going. Or it allowed them to do bomber escort which sucked tremendous amounts of fuel. The P-51 didn't have enough internals to get it to berlin and back in a straight line, much less, as a bomber escort.

All 3 of these fighters used drop tanks. One or two. But to carry a drop tank also took away one bomb station.

The P-38 was used most extensively and successfully in the Pacific theater, where it proved ideally suited, combining excellent performance with exceptional range and the added reliability of two engines for long missions over water.

"Kurt Bühligen, third highest scoring German pilot on the Western front with 112 victories, recalled later: "The P-38 fighter (and the B-24) were easy to burn. Once in Africa we were six and met eight P-38s and shot down seven. One sees a great distance in Africa and our observers and flak people called in sightings and we could get altitude first and they were low and slow." [69] General der Jagdflieger Adolf Galland was unimpressed with the P-38, declaring "it had similar shortcomings in combat to our Bf 110, our fighters were clearly superior to it.""

Lockheed P-38 Lightning - Wikipedia

The P 38 is an early stage WWII plane. But it is indeed a long range fighter.

It failed so badly that it stopped almost all the cargo planes and supply ships from getting to port. It failed so badly that it took out many runways that the 109 operated from. What your German Pilot was probably talking about was hitting it when it was loaded down with bombs on a bombing mission. Now, have the 109 meet it at 15K with it not carrying the bombs.

Early on, many of the 38 pilots were extremely green on twin engine birds. They trained on single engine trainers. And they were met with 11-1 odds against them. The areas it operated in NA meant it didn't have any cover when on the bombing runs. This period was what I call the "Meat Grinder". The introduction of the P-47 in NA was a huge improvement and moved the P-38 into top cover when operating with the P-47s. As the number of P-47s started showing up, the odds changed fast until the allied fighters in NA ended up with a 11-1 ratio in their favor. Each day, the Luftwaffe available air fields were slowly pushed back until the Spit, P-40 and Hurricane could no longer operate over enemy territory. This left the P-38 on it's own until the P-47s showed up. It's not that the P-38 was a bad bird. It was that it was so overwhelmed that many were lost. But as the months went on, the Luftwaffe was whittled down a little each day.

The short comings were trained out once they figured out that the P-38 pilots needed special training. The Piggyback P-38 was a godsend where the pilots trained on a real P-38 instead of just being dumped into the seat of the single seater.

Your comment that the P-38 was an early warbird was correct. But so was the 109. Both just got better through constant upgrades. But in early 1943 the P-38 out shined the 109. It's equal was the 190 for a few months. Then the P-38J-LO-25 (dive brakes) hit the skies in numbers and the 190 was left out to dry. Until the advent of the P-51D, the main high altitude long ranged fighter was the P-38J-LO-15 (no dive brakes) with it's fowler flaps. The way the 109 and 190 avoided their lunches from being eaten was by going in to a high speed dive that the P-38 Pilots were forbidden to follow. When the -25 hit (and the upgrades to the -15 to -25 standard, there were quite a few luftwaffe pilots that died when they tried that same tried and true maneuver. And, for once, the P-38 Pilots got the training they needed to excel in their birds. It wasn't just the P-38 that got better, it was also the P-51 and the P-47. In the end, those 3 operated over enemy held areas with impunity. All 3 were involved in the early 1944 fighter sweeps that all but wiped out the Luftwaffe.

This is why I listed only those 3. The impact those 3 had for the war effort was more pronounced than they other fighters. There wasn't enough P-51B/Cs to take the P-38 out of the bomber escort business. When the P-51D arrived, it arrived with a vengence in numbers with over 8000 produced as compared to the C/B version of about 3000. But the C/B versions had some pretty serious teething problems that were, for the most part, ironed out in the D.

Until the P-38J, there were only 2210 P-38s made (F, G, H). There were many more P-47s built in 1943 than all the P-38s and P-51B/Cs combined.

BTW, the Luftaffen Pilots all claimed that the 190 was the equal to the P-51D. Going by what they said you can chalk it up as Public Relations for their pilots.

It is a well known fact that a single piston engine fighter is much more maneuverable. This is probably why neither the Bf 110 nor the P-38 had a successor.

"United States: Total losses were nearly 95,000, including 52,951 operational losses (38,418 in Europe and 14,533 in the Pacific)"
Equipment losses in World War II - Wikipedia

So maybe the US losses were 77.000 on the Western Front. This is the total of all German losses including heavily damaged. Britain suffered 40.000 losses (Europe) whereas the SU had 125.000 losses.
The Japanese losses are estimated to be between 35.000 and 50.000.

 

[Daryl Hunt]

I chose the P-38 due to it being the most versatile of the 3.

The P-51 is slightly better at high altitudes as a pure fighter, second comes the P-38 as long as the altitude is below 20,000 feet. Below 20,000 feet, the P-38 rarely gets into the compression ability problem. Above that, it can get a newbie pilot killed fast in a dive. But above 25K, the P-47 is far superior to the other 3.

As for claiming the P-51 was the "Only" long ranged fighter, the P-38J+ had a much longer range. The first fighters above Berlin were P-38G models. They were supposed to escort bombers but the bombers were scrubbed. Since the P-38s were already over Germany, they proceeded to Berlin and did strafing runs. This was mid 1943.

If you are doing Recon, the P-38 wins hands down. It's counter rotating props made it very, very smooth in comparison (the P-47 was the rough one). It meant the pictures could be taken at a higher altitude and be clearer due to the lack of motion on the camera. Even so, there was a 75% loss on the P-38 recon birds since they were not armed and had to fly at specific altitudes without changing their altitude or direction while filming. And they were 2000 lbs lighter with all the armor removed. They relied on speed but still.....

As for strafing, the P-47 barely edges out the P-38. The P-47 packed 8 50 cals and could take severe damage from the the ground forces. Meanwhile, the P-38 carried 4 50 cals and was the only WWII Usaf fighter to carry a cannon. The P-47 used convergent fire meaning the bullet paths crossed at about 250 yards. But if you are operating at less than that in ground attack, it doesn't mean a thing. The P-38 had straight trajectories meaning all guns were aimed directly forward including the cannon. At longer Ranges the P-38 was superior but a closer range (due to the rugged construction) the P-47 gets the nod. The P-51 was also used for ground attack but it wasn't nearly as effective as the other 2 due it only having 6 50 cals and it's inability to absorb damage.

Now, let's go onto being able to absorb punishment and still get home. The King is the P-47 with it's radial engine and heavy armor hands down. Hitting his engine may reduce his power but he can be flinging oil with a couple of jug blown off and still get home. The P-38 has two engines. The only way to get him not to come home due to engines is to take out both since he is still very flight worthy on only one (find a cloud bank and boogie home). The worst is the P-51 since he has only one engine. He can be taken out just by hitting his radiator. To give you an idea, more P-51s were lost due to this than either the P-38 or the P-47 combined.

You also have to look at the period of the War. Until the P-47 arrived in mass in early 1943, the only long ranged fighter was the P-38. In 1942, the P-38 faced experienced Luftaffe Pilots at a 11-1 rate. And they tried to use the P-38 by having him fly with the bombers. Here the P-38 is flying in a zig zag formation with the bombers at 200 kts when they are jumped by the 109 doing a dive zoom at 320 kts. The P-38 has to spool up to get up to speed. During that time, bombers are lost and so are the lumbering P-38s. Same goes for the P-47 flying the same mission. Early 1944, that doctrine was changed and allowed the fighters to fly ahead of the bombers and disrupt Luftwaffen Fighters. Early 1944 was when the bulk of the P-51s came into service. And you have to know that the flight training of a P-38 pilot was extremely poor until 1944. By the time the P-51B/C showed up, the heavy lifting was already done and the Luftwaffen was running low on experienced pilots and had a shortage of fuel. Not having the P-51 at all would have changed nothing except a lot of P-38 and P-47 pilots lives.

There is no such thing as a "long range fighter". The Brits made fuel bags of paper that were attached to the American fighters.

Necessity is the Mother of Invention: Paper Drop Tanks of WWII

These were made in England for the 8th AF and used on the P-47 and P-51. The size was 108 gallons. Metal was priceless in Britain. Why use metal when you won't be bringing it home anyway. These tanks couldn't be reused and likely would not survive the landing. Even if there was an air abort, these tanks were jettisoned.

Meanwhile, other tanks of other sizes were being manufactured in the US out of metals.

The tanks were used on long ranged fighters to get them even longer range. For instance, the P-38 could carry 2 tanks like the other 2 could as well. But in the Pacific, it started out as the 165gal all the way up to the 310 gal. The tanks just got you there. You had to get back without the tanks. The P-38 could carry 620 gal of external fuel to augment it's 410 gal internal fuel. Sounds like a one way trip. It's not. Those tanks were used to allow the bird to zig and zag, change altitudes and avoid certain areas to get where it was going. Or it allowed them to do bomber escort which sucked tremendous amounts of fuel. The P-51 didn't have enough internals to get it to berlin and back in a straight line, much less, as a bomber escort.

All 3 of these fighters used drop tanks. One or two. But to carry a drop tank also took away one bomb station.

The P-38 was used most extensively and successfully in the Pacific theater, where it proved ideally suited, combining excellent performance with exceptional range and the added reliability of two engines for long missions over water.

"Kurt Bühligen, third highest scoring German pilot on the Western front with 112 victories, recalled later: "The P-38 fighter (and the B-24) were easy to burn. Once in Africa we were six and met eight P-38s and shot down seven. One sees a great distance in Africa and our observers and flak people called in sightings and we could get altitude first and they were low and slow." [69] General der Jagdflieger Adolf Galland was unimpressed with the P-38, declaring "it had similar shortcomings in combat to our Bf 110, our fighters were clearly superior to it.""

Lockheed P-38 Lightning - Wikipedia

The P 38 is an early stage WWII plane. But it is indeed a long range fighter.

It failed so badly that it stopped almost all the cargo planes and supply ships from getting to port. It failed so badly that it took out many runways that the 109 operated from. What your German Pilot was probably talking about was hitting it when it was loaded down with bombs on a bombing mission. Now, have the 109 meet it at 15K with it not carrying the bombs.

Early on, many of the 38 pilots were extremely green on twin engine birds. They trained on single engine trainers. And they were met with 11-1 odds against them. The areas it operated in NA meant it didn't have any cover when on the bombing runs. This period was what I call the "Meat Grinder". The introduction of the P-47 in NA was a huge improvement and moved the P-38 into top cover when operating with the P-47s. As the number of P-47s started showing up, the odds changed fast until the allied fighters in NA ended up with a 11-1 ratio in their favor. Each day, the Luftwaffe available air fields were slowly pushed back until the Spit, P-40 and Hurricane could no longer operate over enemy territory. This left the P-38 on it's own until the P-47s showed up. It's not that the P-38 was a bad bird. It was that it was so overwhelmed that many were lost. But as the months went on, the Luftwaffe was whittled down a little each day.

The short comings were trained out once they figured out that the P-38 pilots needed special training. The Piggyback P-38 was a godsend where the pilots trained on a real P-38 instead of just being dumped into the seat of the single seater.

Your comment that the P-38 was an early warbird was correct. But so was the 109. Both just got better through constant upgrades. But in early 1943 the P-38 out shined the 109. It's equal was the 190 for a few months. Then the P-38J-LO-25 (dive brakes) hit the skies in numbers and the 190 was left out to dry. Until the advent of the P-51D, the main high altitude long ranged fighter was the P-38J-LO-15 (no dive brakes) with it's fowler flaps. The way the 109 and 190 avoided their lunches from being eaten was by going in to a high speed dive that the P-38 Pilots were forbidden to follow. When the -25 hit (and the upgrades to the -15 to -25 standard, there were quite a few luftwaffe pilots that died when they tried that same tried and true maneuver. And, for once, the P-38 Pilots got the training they needed to excel in their birds. It wasn't just the P-38 that got better, it was also the P-51 and the P-47. In the end, those 3 operated over enemy held areas with impunity. All 3 were involved in the early 1944 fighter sweeps that all but wiped out the Luftwaffe.

This is why I listed only those 3. The impact those 3 had for the war effort was more pronounced than they other fighters. There wasn't enough P-51B/Cs to take the P-38 out of the bomber escort business. When the P-51D arrived, it arrived with a vengence in numbers with over 8000 produced as compared to the C/B version of about 3000. But the C/B versions had some pretty serious teething problems that were, for the most part, ironed out in the D.

Until the P-38J, there were only 2210 P-38s made (F, G, H). There were many more P-47s built in 1943 than all the P-38s and P-51B/Cs combined.

BTW, the Luftaffen Pilots all claimed that the 190 was the equal to the P-51D. Going by what they said you can chalk it up as Public Relations for their pilots.

It is a well known fact that a single piston engine fighter is much more maneuverable. This is probably why neither the Bf 110 nor the P-38 had a successor.

"United States: Total losses were nearly 95,000, including 52,951 operational losses (38,418 in Europe and 14,533 in the Pacific)"
Equipment losses in World War II - Wikipedia

So maybe the US losses were 77.000 on the Western Front. This is the total of all German losses including heavily damaged. Britain suffered 40.000 losses (Europe) whereas the SU had 125.000 losses.
The Japanese losses are estimated to be between 35.000 and 50.000.

That was true until the advent of the Fowler Flaps and Dive Brakes. By throttling back the engine that they were turning into and firewalling the outboard and using the fowler flaps the P-38J and L could turn inside of a Zero. And could dive with the Zero and the two Luftwaffe Fighters. By the end of the war (ETO) the P-38L finally were in great numbers. They got the numbers up by opening a 2nd assembly plant by Consolidate Voltare.

The P-38L could dive at 600 mph.

 

[westwall]

There is no such thing as a "long range fighter". The Brits made fuel bags of paper that were attached to the American fighters.

Necessity is the Mother of Invention: Paper Drop Tanks of WWII

These were made in England for the 8th AF and used on the P-47 and P-51. The size was 108 gallons. Metal was priceless in Britain. Why use metal when you won't be bringing it home anyway. These tanks couldn't be reused and likely would not survive the landing. Even if there was an air abort, these tanks were jettisoned.

Meanwhile, other tanks of other sizes were being manufactured in the US out of metals.

The tanks were used on long ranged fighters to get them even longer range. For instance, the P-38 could carry 2 tanks like the other 2 could as well. But in the Pacific, it started out as the 165gal all the way up to the 310 gal. The tanks just got you there. You had to get back without the tanks. The P-38 could carry 620 gal of external fuel to augment it's 410 gal internal fuel. Sounds like a one way trip. It's not. Those tanks were used to allow the bird to zig and zag, change altitudes and avoid certain areas to get where it was going. Or it allowed them to do bomber escort which sucked tremendous amounts of fuel. The P-51 didn't have enough internals to get it to berlin and back in a straight line, much less, as a bomber escort.

All 3 of these fighters used drop tanks. One or two. But to carry a drop tank also took away one bomb station.

The P-38 was used most extensively and successfully in the Pacific theater, where it proved ideally suited, combining excellent performance with exceptional range and the added reliability of two engines for long missions over water.

"Kurt Bühligen, third highest scoring German pilot on the Western front with 112 victories, recalled later: "The P-38 fighter (and the B-24) were easy to burn. Once in Africa we were six and met eight P-38s and shot down seven. One sees a great distance in Africa and our observers and flak people called in sightings and we could get altitude first and they were low and slow." [69] General der Jagdflieger Adolf Galland was unimpressed with the P-38, declaring "it had similar shortcomings in combat to our Bf 110, our fighters were clearly superior to it.""

Lockheed P-38 Lightning - Wikipedia

The P 38 is an early stage WWII plane. But it is indeed a long range fighter.

It failed so badly that it stopped almost all the cargo planes and supply ships from getting to port. It failed so badly that it took out many runways that the 109 operated from. What your German Pilot was probably talking about was hitting it when it was loaded down with bombs on a bombing mission. Now, have the 109 meet it at 15K with it not carrying the bombs.

Early on, many of the 38 pilots were extremely green on twin engine birds. They trained on single engine trainers. And they were met with 11-1 odds against them. The areas it operated in NA meant it didn't have any cover when on the bombing runs. This period was what I call the "Meat Grinder". The introduction of the P-47 in NA was a huge improvement and moved the P-38 into top cover when operating with the P-47s. As the number of P-47s started showing up, the odds changed fast until the allied fighters in NA ended up with a 11-1 ratio in their favor. Each day, the Luftwaffe available air fields were slowly pushed back until the Spit, P-40 and Hurricane could no longer operate over enemy territory. This left the P-38 on it's own until the P-47s showed up. It's not that the P-38 was a bad bird. It was that it was so overwhelmed that many were lost. But as the months went on, the Luftwaffe was whittled down a little each day.

The short comings were trained out once they figured out that the P-38 pilots needed special training. The Piggyback P-38 was a godsend where the pilots trained on a real P-38 instead of just being dumped into the seat of the single seater.

Your comment that the P-38 was an early warbird was correct. But so was the 109. Both just got better through constant upgrades. But in early 1943 the P-38 out shined the 109. It's equal was the 190 for a few months. Then the P-38J-LO-25 (dive brakes) hit the skies in numbers and the 190 was left out to dry. Until the advent of the P-51D, the main high altitude long ranged fighter was the P-38J-LO-15 (no dive brakes) with it's fowler flaps. The way the 109 and 190 avoided their lunches from being eaten was by going in to a high speed dive that the P-38 Pilots were forbidden to follow. When the -25 hit (and the upgrades to the -15 to -25 standard, there were quite a few luftwaffe pilots that died when they tried that same tried and true maneuver. And, for once, the P-38 Pilots got the training they needed to excel in their birds. It wasn't just the P-38 that got better, it was also the P-51 and the P-47. In the end, those 3 operated over enemy held areas with impunity. All 3 were involved in the early 1944 fighter sweeps that all but wiped out the Luftwaffe.

This is why I listed only those 3. The impact those 3 had for the war effort was more pronounced than they other fighters. There wasn't enough P-51B/Cs to take the P-38 out of the bomber escort business. When the P-51D arrived, it arrived with a vengence in numbers with over 8000 produced as compared to the C/B version of about 3000. But the C/B versions had some pretty serious teething problems that were, for the most part, ironed out in the D.

Until the P-38J, there were only 2210 P-38s made (F, G, H). There were many more P-47s built in 1943 than all the P-38s and P-51B/Cs combined.

BTW, the Luftaffen Pilots all claimed that the 190 was the equal to the P-51D. Going by what they said you can chalk it up as Public Relations for their pilots.

It is a well known fact that a single piston engine fighter is much more maneuverable. This is probably why neither the Bf 110 nor the P-38 had a successor.

"United States: Total losses were nearly 95,000, including 52,951 operational losses (38,418 in Europe and 14,533 in the Pacific)"
Equipment losses in World War II - Wikipedia

So maybe the US losses were 77.000 on the Western Front. This is the total of all German losses including heavily damaged. Britain suffered 40.000 losses (Europe) whereas the SU had 125.000 losses.
The Japanese losses are estimated to be between 35.000 and 50.000.

That was true until the advent of the Fowler Flaps and Dive Brakes. By throttling back the engine that they were turning into and firewalling the outboard and using the fowler flaps the P-38J and L could turn inside of a Zero. And could dive with the Zero and the two Luftwaffe Fighters. By the end of the war (ETO) the P-38L finally were in great numbers. They got the numbers up by opening a 2nd assembly plant by Consolidate Voltare.

The P-38L could dive at 600 mph.

Early on the P-38 had serious problems with compressibility in the dive. As they worked on the aircraft that got rectified, but it was never able to dive as fast as the Jug. You are correct abut the Fowler flaps allowing the '38 to turn tighter than a Zero and that is no small feat!

 

[Bleipriester]

There is no such thing as a "long range fighter". The Brits made fuel bags of paper that were attached to the American fighters.

Necessity is the Mother of Invention: Paper Drop Tanks of WWII

These were made in England for the 8th AF and used on the P-47 and P-51. The size was 108 gallons. Metal was priceless in Britain. Why use metal when you won't be bringing it home anyway. These tanks couldn't be reused and likely would not survive the landing. Even if there was an air abort, these tanks were jettisoned.

Meanwhile, other tanks of other sizes were being manufactured in the US out of metals.

The tanks were used on long ranged fighters to get them even longer range. For instance, the P-38 could carry 2 tanks like the other 2 could as well. But in the Pacific, it started out as the 165gal all the way up to the 310 gal. The tanks just got you there. You had to get back without the tanks. The P-38 could carry 620 gal of external fuel to augment it's 410 gal internal fuel. Sounds like a one way trip. It's not. Those tanks were used to allow the bird to zig and zag, change altitudes and avoid certain areas to get where it was going. Or it allowed them to do bomber escort which sucked tremendous amounts of fuel. The P-51 didn't have enough internals to get it to berlin and back in a straight line, much less, as a bomber escort.

All 3 of these fighters used drop tanks. One or two. But to carry a drop tank also took away one bomb station.

The P-38 was used most extensively and successfully in the Pacific theater, where it proved ideally suited, combining excellent performance with exceptional range and the added reliability of two engines for long missions over water.

"Kurt Bühligen, third highest scoring German pilot on the Western front with 112 victories, recalled later: "The P-38 fighter (and the B-24) were easy to burn. Once in Africa we were six and met eight P-38s and shot down seven. One sees a great distance in Africa and our observers and flak people called in sightings and we could get altitude first and they were low and slow." [69] General der Jagdflieger Adolf Galland was unimpressed with the P-38, declaring "it had similar shortcomings in combat to our Bf 110, our fighters were clearly superior to it.""

Lockheed P-38 Lightning - Wikipedia

The P 38 is an early stage WWII plane. But it is indeed a long range fighter.

It failed so badly that it stopped almost all the cargo planes and supply ships from getting to port. It failed so badly that it took out many runways that the 109 operated from. What your German Pilot was probably talking about was hitting it when it was loaded down with bombs on a bombing mission. Now, have the 109 meet it at 15K with it not carrying the bombs.

Early on, many of the 38 pilots were extremely green on twin engine birds. They trained on single engine trainers. And they were met with 11-1 odds against them. The areas it operated in NA meant it didn't have any cover when on the bombing runs. This period was what I call the "Meat Grinder". The introduction of the P-47 in NA was a huge improvement and moved the P-38 into top cover when operating with the P-47s. As the number of P-47s started showing up, the odds changed fast until the allied fighters in NA ended up with a 11-1 ratio in their favor. Each day, the Luftwaffe available air fields were slowly pushed back until the Spit, P-40 and Hurricane could no longer operate over enemy territory. This left the P-38 on it's own until the P-47s showed up. It's not that the P-38 was a bad bird. It was that it was so overwhelmed that many were lost. But as the months went on, the Luftwaffe was whittled down a little each day.

The short comings were trained out once they figured out that the P-38 pilots needed special training. The Piggyback P-38 was a godsend where the pilots trained on a real P-38 instead of just being dumped into the seat of the single seater.

Your comment that the P-38 was an early warbird was correct. But so was the 109. Both just got better through constant upgrades. But in early 1943 the P-38 out shined the 109. It's equal was the 190 for a few months. Then the P-38J-LO-25 (dive brakes) hit the skies in numbers and the 190 was left out to dry. Until the advent of the P-51D, the main high altitude long ranged fighter was the P-38J-LO-15 (no dive brakes) with it's fowler flaps. The way the 109 and 190 avoided their lunches from being eaten was by going in to a high speed dive that the P-38 Pilots were forbidden to follow. When the -25 hit (and the upgrades to the -15 to -25 standard, there were quite a few luftwaffe pilots that died when they tried that same tried and true maneuver. And, for once, the P-38 Pilots got the training they needed to excel in their birds. It wasn't just the P-38 that got better, it was also the P-51 and the P-47. In the end, those 3 operated over enemy held areas with impunity. All 3 were involved in the early 1944 fighter sweeps that all but wiped out the Luftwaffe.

This is why I listed only those 3. The impact those 3 had for the war effort was more pronounced than they other fighters. There wasn't enough P-51B/Cs to take the P-38 out of the bomber escort business. When the P-51D arrived, it arrived with a vengence in numbers with over 8000 produced as compared to the C/B version of about 3000. But the C/B versions had some pretty serious teething problems that were, for the most part, ironed out in the D.

Until the P-38J, there were only 2210 P-38s made (F, G, H). There were many more P-47s built in 1943 than all the P-38s and P-51B/Cs combined.

BTW, the Luftaffen Pilots all claimed that the 190 was the equal to the P-51D. Going by what they said you can chalk it up as Public Relations for their pilots.

It is a well known fact that a single piston engine fighter is much more maneuverable. This is probably why neither the Bf 110 nor the P-38 had a successor.

"United States: Total losses were nearly 95,000, including 52,951 operational losses (38,418 in Europe and 14,533 in the Pacific)"
Equipment losses in World War II - Wikipedia

So maybe the US losses were 77.000 on the Western Front. This is the total of all German losses including heavily damaged. Britain suffered 40.000 losses (Europe) whereas the SU had 125.000 losses.
The Japanese losses are estimated to be between 35.000 and 50.000.

That was true until the advent of the Fowler Flaps and Dive Brakes. By throttling back the engine that they were turning into and firewalling the outboard and using the fowler flaps the P-38J and L could turn inside of a Zero. And could dive with the Zero and the two Luftwaffe Fighters. By the end of the war (ETO) the P-38L finally were in great numbers. They got the numbers up by opening a 2nd assembly plant by Consolidate Voltare.

The P-38L could dive at 600 mph.

Maybe, the agility had improved but it was still an issue. The Bf 109 succeeded greatly on all frontiers. There were also other planes like the FW 190 and even the Me 262. These three are to be compared to P-38, 47 and 51 to measure their capabilities.

 

[Daryl Hunt]

Necessity is the Mother of Invention: Paper Drop Tanks of WWII

These were made in England for the 8th AF and used on the P-47 and P-51. The size was 108 gallons. Metal was priceless in Britain. Why use metal when you won't be bringing it home anyway. These tanks couldn't be reused and likely would not survive the landing. Even if there was an air abort, these tanks were jettisoned.

Meanwhile, other tanks of other sizes were being manufactured in the US out of metals.

The tanks were used on long ranged fighters to get them even longer range. For instance, the P-38 could carry 2 tanks like the other 2 could as well. But in the Pacific, it started out as the 165gal all the way up to the 310 gal. The tanks just got you there. You had to get back without the tanks. The P-38 could carry 620 gal of external fuel to augment it's 410 gal internal fuel. Sounds like a one way trip. It's not. Those tanks were used to allow the bird to zig and zag, change altitudes and avoid certain areas to get where it was going. Or it allowed them to do bomber escort which sucked tremendous amounts of fuel. The P-51 didn't have enough internals to get it to berlin and back in a straight line, much less, as a bomber escort.

All 3 of these fighters used drop tanks. One or two. But to carry a drop tank also took away one bomb station.

The P-38 was used most extensively and successfully in the Pacific theater, where it proved ideally suited, combining excellent performance with exceptional range and the added reliability of two engines for long missions over water.

"Kurt Bühligen, third highest scoring German pilot on the Western front with 112 victories, recalled later: "The P-38 fighter (and the B-24) were easy to burn. Once in Africa we were six and met eight P-38s and shot down seven. One sees a great distance in Africa and our observers and flak people called in sightings and we could get altitude first and they were low and slow." [69] General der Jagdflieger Adolf Galland was unimpressed with the P-38, declaring "it had similar shortcomings in combat to our Bf 110, our fighters were clearly superior to it.""

Lockheed P-38 Lightning - Wikipedia

The P 38 is an early stage WWII plane. But it is indeed a long range fighter.

It failed so badly that it stopped almost all the cargo planes and supply ships from getting to port. It failed so badly that it took out many runways that the 109 operated from. What your German Pilot was probably talking about was hitting it when it was loaded down with bombs on a bombing mission. Now, have the 109 meet it at 15K with it not carrying the bombs.

Early on, many of the 38 pilots were extremely green on twin engine birds. They trained on single engine trainers. And they were met with 11-1 odds against them. The areas it operated in NA meant it didn't have any cover when on the bombing runs. This period was what I call the "Meat Grinder". The introduction of the P-47 in NA was a huge improvement and moved the P-38 into top cover when operating with the P-47s. As the number of P-47s started showing up, the odds changed fast until the allied fighters in NA ended up with a 11-1 ratio in their favor. Each day, the Luftwaffe available air fields were slowly pushed back until the Spit, P-40 and Hurricane could no longer operate over enemy territory. This left the P-38 on it's own until the P-47s showed up. It's not that the P-38 was a bad bird. It was that it was so overwhelmed that many were lost. But as the months went on, the Luftwaffe was whittled down a little each day.

The short comings were trained out once they figured out that the P-38 pilots needed special training. The Piggyback P-38 was a godsend where the pilots trained on a real P-38 instead of just being dumped into the seat of the single seater.

Your comment that the P-38 was an early warbird was correct. But so was the 109. Both just got better through constant upgrades. But in early 1943 the P-38 out shined the 109. It's equal was the 190 for a few months. Then the P-38J-LO-25 (dive brakes) hit the skies in numbers and the 190 was left out to dry. Until the advent of the P-51D, the main high altitude long ranged fighter was the P-38J-LO-15 (no dive brakes) with it's fowler flaps. The way the 109 and 190 avoided their lunches from being eaten was by going in to a high speed dive that the P-38 Pilots were forbidden to follow. When the -25 hit (and the upgrades to the -15 to -25 standard, there were quite a few luftwaffe pilots that died when they tried that same tried and true maneuver. And, for once, the P-38 Pilots got the training they needed to excel in their birds. It wasn't just the P-38 that got better, it was also the P-51 and the P-47. In the end, those 3 operated over enemy held areas with impunity. All 3 were involved in the early 1944 fighter sweeps that all but wiped out the Luftwaffe.

This is why I listed only those 3. The impact those 3 had for the war effort was more pronounced than they other fighters. There wasn't enough P-51B/Cs to take the P-38 out of the bomber escort business. When the P-51D arrived, it arrived with a vengence in numbers with over 8000 produced as compared to the C/B version of about 3000. But the C/B versions had some pretty serious teething problems that were, for the most part, ironed out in the D.

Until the P-38J, there were only 2210 P-38s made (F, G, H). There were many more P-47s built in 1943 than all the P-38s and P-51B/Cs combined.

BTW, the Luftaffen Pilots all claimed that the 190 was the equal to the P-51D. Going by what they said you can chalk it up as Public Relations for their pilots.

It is a well known fact that a single piston engine fighter is much more maneuverable. This is probably why neither the Bf 110 nor the P-38 had a successor.

"United States: Total losses were nearly 95,000, including 52,951 operational losses (38,418 in Europe and 14,533 in the Pacific)"
Equipment losses in World War II - Wikipedia

So maybe the US losses were 77.000 on the Western Front. This is the total of all German losses including heavily damaged. Britain suffered 40.000 losses (Europe) whereas the SU had 125.000 losses.
The Japanese losses are estimated to be between 35.000 and 50.000.

That was true until the advent of the Fowler Flaps and Dive Brakes. By throttling back the engine that they were turning into and firewalling the outboard and using the fowler flaps the P-38J and L could turn inside of a Zero. And could dive with the Zero and the two Luftwaffe Fighters. By the end of the war (ETO) the P-38L finally were in great numbers. They got the numbers up by opening a 2nd assembly plant by Consolidate Voltare.

The P-38L could dive at 600 mph.

Early on the P-38 had serious problems with compressibility in the dive. As they worked on the aircraft that got rectified, but it was never able to dive as fast as the Jug. You are correct abut the Fowler flaps allowing the '38 to turn tighter than a Zero and that is no small feat!

All the above 400 mph fighters had compressibility problems including the P-51, P-47 and others. This includes the Mossie. But the original P-38 (FthruH) were so streamlined that it had it the worst. Then add to the fact it would tuck it's tail and end up a straight down dive making things even worse. The real fix was to train the pilots to back off on the throttles. This was trained out of the pilots by either training them properly or by not allowing them to dive after other AC at high altitudes. Even the experienced Pilots got into that situation but knew to chop the throttles until it recovers at a lower altitude. Robin Olds (Later the CO of the Triple Nickel) got into that situation with a P-38H due to being way over zealous in attacking lower altitude Luftwaffe AC. Right after recovery, he found himself in the guns sites of a ME109 to make his blood pressure to even higher. He bagged the 109. And I don't believe you will find a more experienced ETO P-38 Pilot than Olds at the time.

All the hot fighters had compressablity problems above 20,000 feet where the Mach Number was lower. Diving at 600 mph means you are easily transonic and that is where things always got interesting. The P-38 did NOT have compressability problems below 20K and could dive with the best of them up to 20K. Above that and the Mach Number was low enough to get an inexperienced (and sometimes an experienced pilot) into trouble. The other fighters were a bit dirty in the way they were constructed and the pilot just had to ride it out. The P-38, at 25 to 30K got in trouble and it was streamline enough to go all the way to the ground unless something changed like Chopping Power or use the Dive Brakes (dirty it up). Today, those brakes are called speed brakes but do essentially the same thing in the same situation. About your comment, it couldn't dive with a Jug, neither could anything else. That bird was so dirty that it could pull out of a compressability problem without chopping power. In order to stay in Near Mach, it had to have even more power than it had so you could go into a dive at above 20K and only experience the compressability problem for a very short time.

I think it would have been a race to see which could dive faster, the P-47 or a brick with a rocket motor on it.

 

[Daryl Hunt]

Necessity is the Mother of Invention: Paper Drop Tanks of WWII

These were made in England for the 8th AF and used on the P-47 and P-51. The size was 108 gallons. Metal was priceless in Britain. Why use metal when you won't be bringing it home anyway. These tanks couldn't be reused and likely would not survive the landing. Even if there was an air abort, these tanks were jettisoned.

Meanwhile, other tanks of other sizes were being manufactured in the US out of metals.

The tanks were used on long ranged fighters to get them even longer range. For instance, the P-38 could carry 2 tanks like the other 2 could as well. But in the Pacific, it started out as the 165gal all the way up to the 310 gal. The tanks just got you there. You had to get back without the tanks. The P-38 could carry 620 gal of external fuel to augment it's 410 gal internal fuel. Sounds like a one way trip. It's not. Those tanks were used to allow the bird to zig and zag, change altitudes and avoid certain areas to get where it was going. Or it allowed them to do bomber escort which sucked tremendous amounts of fuel. The P-51 didn't have enough internals to get it to berlin and back in a straight line, much less, as a bomber escort.

All 3 of these fighters used drop tanks. One or two. But to carry a drop tank also took away one bomb station.

The P-38 was used most extensively and successfully in the Pacific theater, where it proved ideally suited, combining excellent performance with exceptional range and the added reliability of two engines for long missions over water.

"Kurt Bühligen, third highest scoring German pilot on the Western front with 112 victories, recalled later: "The P-38 fighter (and the B-24) were easy to burn. Once in Africa we were six and met eight P-38s and shot down seven. One sees a great distance in Africa and our observers and flak people called in sightings and we could get altitude first and they were low and slow." [69] General der Jagdflieger Adolf Galland was unimpressed with the P-38, declaring "it had similar shortcomings in combat to our Bf 110, our fighters were clearly superior to it.""

Lockheed P-38 Lightning - Wikipedia

The P 38 is an early stage WWII plane. But it is indeed a long range fighter.

It failed so badly that it stopped almost all the cargo planes and supply ships from getting to port. It failed so badly that it took out many runways that the 109 operated from. What your German Pilot was probably talking about was hitting it when it was loaded down with bombs on a bombing mission. Now, have the 109 meet it at 15K with it not carrying the bombs.

Early on, many of the 38 pilots were extremely green on twin engine birds. They trained on single engine trainers. And they were met with 11-1 odds against them. The areas it operated in NA meant it didn't have any cover when on the bombing runs. This period was what I call the "Meat Grinder". The introduction of the P-47 in NA was a huge improvement and moved the P-38 into top cover when operating with the P-47s. As the number of P-47s started showing up, the odds changed fast until the allied fighters in NA ended up with a 11-1 ratio in their favor. Each day, the Luftwaffe available air fields were slowly pushed back until the Spit, P-40 and Hurricane could no longer operate over enemy territory. This left the P-38 on it's own until the P-47s showed up. It's not that the P-38 was a bad bird. It was that it was so overwhelmed that many were lost. But as the months went on, the Luftwaffe was whittled down a little each day.

The short comings were trained out once they figured out that the P-38 pilots needed special training. The Piggyback P-38 was a godsend where the pilots trained on a real P-38 instead of just being dumped into the seat of the single seater.

Your comment that the P-38 was an early warbird was correct. But so was the 109. Both just got better through constant upgrades. But in early 1943 the P-38 out shined the 109. It's equal was the 190 for a few months. Then the P-38J-LO-25 (dive brakes) hit the skies in numbers and the 190 was left out to dry. Until the advent of the P-51D, the main high altitude long ranged fighter was the P-38J-LO-15 (no dive brakes) with it's fowler flaps. The way the 109 and 190 avoided their lunches from being eaten was by going in to a high speed dive that the P-38 Pilots were forbidden to follow. When the -25 hit (and the upgrades to the -15 to -25 standard, there were quite a few luftwaffe pilots that died when they tried that same tried and true maneuver. And, for once, the P-38 Pilots got the training they needed to excel in their birds. It wasn't just the P-38 that got better, it was also the P-51 and the P-47. In the end, those 3 operated over enemy held areas with impunity. All 3 were involved in the early 1944 fighter sweeps that all but wiped out the Luftwaffe.

This is why I listed only those 3. The impact those 3 had for the war effort was more pronounced than they other fighters. There wasn't enough P-51B/Cs to take the P-38 out of the bomber escort business. When the P-51D arrived, it arrived with a vengence in numbers with over 8000 produced as compared to the C/B version of about 3000. But the C/B versions had some pretty serious teething problems that were, for the most part, ironed out in the D.

Until the P-38J, there were only 2210 P-38s made (F, G, H). There were many more P-47s built in 1943 than all the P-38s and P-51B/Cs combined.

BTW, the Luftaffen Pilots all claimed that the 190 was the equal to the P-51D. Going by what they said you can chalk it up as Public Relations for their pilots.

It is a well known fact that a single piston engine fighter is much more maneuverable. This is probably why neither the Bf 110 nor the P-38 had a successor.

"United States: Total losses were nearly 95,000, including 52,951 operational losses (38,418 in Europe and 14,533 in the Pacific)"
Equipment losses in World War II - Wikipedia

So maybe the US losses were 77.000 on the Western Front. This is the total of all German losses including heavily damaged. Britain suffered 40.000 losses (Europe) whereas the SU had 125.000 losses.
The Japanese losses are estimated to be between 35.000 and 50.000.

That was true until the advent of the Fowler Flaps and Dive Brakes. By throttling back the engine that they were turning into and firewalling the outboard and using the fowler flaps the P-38J and L could turn inside of a Zero. And could dive with the Zero and the two Luftwaffe Fighters. By the end of the war (ETO) the P-38L finally were in great numbers. They got the numbers up by opening a 2nd assembly plant by Consolidate Voltare.

The P-38L could dive at 600 mph.

Maybe, the agility had improved but it was still an issue. The Bf 109 succeeded greatly on all frontiers. There were also other planes like the FW 190 and even the Me 262. These three are to be compared to P-38, 47 and 51 to measure their capabilities.

I would agree up until early 1944. The New P-47D-XX was introduced with it's added power, added fuel capacity and paddle bladed props. Meanwhile, the P-51D was coming into the inventory as was the P-38J-LO-25. All 3 were faster and more maneuverable than either the 190 or the 109.

When you look at just this time period, which of the 3 are better is only determined with the specialized job it was sent to do.

 

[Bleipriester]

The P-38 was used most extensively and successfully in the Pacific theater, where it proved ideally suited, combining excellent performance with exceptional range and the added reliability of two engines for long missions over water.

"Kurt Bühligen, third highest scoring German pilot on the Western front with 112 victories, recalled later: "The P-38 fighter (and the B-24) were easy to burn. Once in Africa we were six and met eight P-38s and shot down seven. One sees a great distance in Africa and our observers and flak people called in sightings and we could get altitude first and they were low and slow." [69] General der Jagdflieger Adolf Galland was unimpressed with the P-38, declaring "it had similar shortcomings in combat to our Bf 110, our fighters were clearly superior to it.""

Lockheed P-38 Lightning - Wikipedia

The P 38 is an early stage WWII plane. But it is indeed a long range fighter.

It failed so badly that it stopped almost all the cargo planes and supply ships from getting to port. It failed so badly that it took out many runways that the 109 operated from. What your German Pilot was probably talking about was hitting it when it was loaded down with bombs on a bombing mission. Now, have the 109 meet it at 15K with it not carrying the bombs.

Early on, many of the 38 pilots were extremely green on twin engine birds. They trained on single engine trainers. And they were met with 11-1 odds against them. The areas it operated in NA meant it didn't have any cover when on the bombing runs. This period was what I call the "Meat Grinder". The introduction of the P-47 in NA was a huge improvement and moved the P-38 into top cover when operating with the P-47s. As the number of P-47s started showing up, the odds changed fast until the allied fighters in NA ended up with a 11-1 ratio in their favor. Each day, the Luftwaffe available air fields were slowly pushed back until the Spit, P-40 and Hurricane could no longer operate over enemy territory. This left the P-38 on it's own until the P-47s showed up. It's not that the P-38 was a bad bird. It was that it was so overwhelmed that many were lost. But as the months went on, the Luftwaffe was whittled down a little each day.

The short comings were trained out once they figured out that the P-38 pilots needed special training. The Piggyback P-38 was a godsend where the pilots trained on a real P-38 instead of just being dumped into the seat of the single seater.

Your comment that the P-38 was an early warbird was correct. But so was the 109. Both just got better through constant upgrades. But in early 1943 the P-38 out shined the 109. It's equal was the 190 for a few months. Then the P-38J-LO-25 (dive brakes) hit the skies in numbers and the 190 was left out to dry. Until the advent of the P-51D, the main high altitude long ranged fighter was the P-38J-LO-15 (no dive brakes) with it's fowler flaps. The way the 109 and 190 avoided their lunches from being eaten was by going in to a high speed dive that the P-38 Pilots were forbidden to follow. When the -25 hit (and the upgrades to the -15 to -25 standard, there were quite a few luftwaffe pilots that died when they tried that same tried and true maneuver. And, for once, the P-38 Pilots got the training they needed to excel in their birds. It wasn't just the P-38 that got better, it was also the P-51 and the P-47. In the end, those 3 operated over enemy held areas with impunity. All 3 were involved in the early 1944 fighter sweeps that all but wiped out the Luftwaffe.

This is why I listed only those 3. The impact those 3 had for the war effort was more pronounced than they other fighters. There wasn't enough P-51B/Cs to take the P-38 out of the bomber escort business. When the P-51D arrived, it arrived with a vengence in numbers with over 8000 produced as compared to the C/B version of about 3000. But the C/B versions had some pretty serious teething problems that were, for the most part, ironed out in the D.

Until the P-38J, there were only 2210 P-38s made (F, G, H). There were many more P-47s built in 1943 than all the P-38s and P-51B/Cs combined.

BTW, the Luftaffen Pilots all claimed that the 190 was the equal to the P-51D. Going by what they said you can chalk it up as Public Relations for their pilots.

It is a well known fact that a single piston engine fighter is much more maneuverable. This is probably why neither the Bf 110 nor the P-38 had a successor.

"United States: Total losses were nearly 95,000, including 52,951 operational losses (38,418 in Europe and 14,533 in the Pacific)"
Equipment losses in World War II - Wikipedia

So maybe the US losses were 77.000 on the Western Front. This is the total of all German losses including heavily damaged. Britain suffered 40.000 losses (Europe) whereas the SU had 125.000 losses.
The Japanese losses are estimated to be between 35.000 and 50.000.

That was true until the advent of the Fowler Flaps and Dive Brakes. By throttling back the engine that they were turning into and firewalling the outboard and using the fowler flaps the P-38J and L could turn inside of a Zero. And could dive with the Zero and the two Luftwaffe Fighters. By the end of the war (ETO) the P-38L finally were in great numbers. They got the numbers up by opening a 2nd assembly plant by Consolidate Voltare.

The P-38L could dive at 600 mph.

Maybe, the agility had improved but it was still an issue. The Bf 109 succeeded greatly on all frontiers. There were also other planes like the FW 190 and even the Me 262. These three are to be compared to P-38, 47 and 51 to measure their capabilities.

I would agree up until early 1944. The New P-47D-XX was introduced with it's added power, added fuel capacity and paddle bladed props. Meanwhile, the P-51D was coming into the inventory as was the P-38J-LO-25. All 3 were faster and more maneuverable than either the 190 or the 109.

When you look at just this time period, which of the 3 are better is only determined with the specialized job it was sent to do.

I don´t think that is true. This is the time when the Americans adopted a new strategy: The fighters came first and confronted possible interceptors. The Westen Front is also not a good "tool" to measure the planes´ strength unless its one on one and not 1000 vs 100.

 

[westwall]

It failed so badly that it stopped almost all the cargo planes and supply ships from getting to port. It failed so badly that it took out many runways that the 109 operated from. What your German Pilot was probably talking about was hitting it when it was loaded down with bombs on a bombing mission. Now, have the 109 meet it at 15K with it not carrying the bombs.

Early on, many of the 38 pilots were extremely green on twin engine birds. They trained on single engine trainers. And they were met with 11-1 odds against them. The areas it operated in NA meant it didn't have any cover when on the bombing runs. This period was what I call the "Meat Grinder". The introduction of the P-47 in NA was a huge improvement and moved the P-38 into top cover when operating with the P-47s. As the number of P-47s started showing up, the odds changed fast until the allied fighters in NA ended up with a 11-1 ratio in their favor. Each day, the Luftwaffe available air fields were slowly pushed back until the Spit, P-40 and Hurricane could no longer operate over enemy territory. This left the P-38 on it's own until the P-47s showed up. It's not that the P-38 was a bad bird. It was that it was so overwhelmed that many were lost. But as the months went on, the Luftwaffe was whittled down a little each day.

The short comings were trained out once they figured out that the P-38 pilots needed special training. The Piggyback P-38 was a godsend where the pilots trained on a real P-38 instead of just being dumped into the seat of the single seater.

Your comment that the P-38 was an early warbird was correct. But so was the 109. Both just got better through constant upgrades. But in early 1943 the P-38 out shined the 109. It's equal was the 190 for a few months. Then the P-38J-LO-25 (dive brakes) hit the skies in numbers and the 190 was left out to dry. Until the advent of the P-51D, the main high altitude long ranged fighter was the P-38J-LO-15 (no dive brakes) with it's fowler flaps. The way the 109 and 190 avoided their lunches from being eaten was by going in to a high speed dive that the P-38 Pilots were forbidden to follow. When the -25 hit (and the upgrades to the -15 to -25 standard, there were quite a few luftwaffe pilots that died when they tried that same tried and true maneuver. And, for once, the P-38 Pilots got the training they needed to excel in their birds. It wasn't just the P-38 that got better, it was also the P-51 and the P-47. In the end, those 3 operated over enemy held areas with impunity. All 3 were involved in the early 1944 fighter sweeps that all but wiped out the Luftwaffe.

This is why I listed only those 3. The impact those 3 had for the war effort was more pronounced than they other fighters. There wasn't enough P-51B/Cs to take the P-38 out of the bomber escort business. When the P-51D arrived, it arrived with a vengence in numbers with over 8000 produced as compared to the C/B version of about 3000. But the C/B versions had some pretty serious teething problems that were, for the most part, ironed out in the D.

Until the P-38J, there were only 2210 P-38s made (F, G, H). There were many more P-47s built in 1943 than all the P-38s and P-51B/Cs combined.

BTW, the Luftaffen Pilots all claimed that the 190 was the equal to the P-51D. Going by what they said you can chalk it up as Public Relations for their pilots.

It is a well known fact that a single piston engine fighter is much more maneuverable. This is probably why neither the Bf 110 nor the P-38 had a successor.

"United States: Total losses were nearly 95,000, including 52,951 operational losses (38,418 in Europe and 14,533 in the Pacific)"
Equipment losses in World War II - Wikipedia

So maybe the US losses were 77.000 on the Western Front. This is the total of all German losses including heavily damaged. Britain suffered 40.000 losses (Europe) whereas the SU had 125.000 losses.
The Japanese losses are estimated to be between 35.000 and 50.000.

That was true until the advent of the Fowler Flaps and Dive Brakes. By throttling back the engine that they were turning into and firewalling the outboard and using the fowler flaps the P-38J and L could turn inside of a Zero. And could dive with the Zero and the two Luftwaffe Fighters. By the end of the war (ETO) the P-38L finally were in great numbers. They got the numbers up by opening a 2nd assembly plant by Consolidate Voltare.

The P-38L could dive at 600 mph.

Maybe, the agility had improved but it was still an issue. The Bf 109 succeeded greatly on all frontiers. There were also other planes like the FW 190 and even the Me 262. These three are to be compared to P-38, 47 and 51 to measure their capabilities.

I would agree up until early 1944. The New P-47D-XX was introduced with it's added power, added fuel capacity and paddle bladed props. Meanwhile, the P-51D was coming into the inventory as was the P-38J-LO-25. All 3 were faster and more maneuverable than either the 190 or the 109.

When you look at just this time period, which of the 3 are better is only determined with the specialized job it was sent to do.

I don´t think that is true. This is the time when the Americans adopted a new strategy: The fighters came first and confronted possible interceptors. The Westen Front is also not a good "tool" to measure the planes´ strength unless its one on one and not 1000 vs 100.

The 109 was completely outclassed by 1944. The only reason why it was able to do as good as it did was because of the pilots who flew it. They truly were among the finest ever to fly an aircraft. By late 1944 the FW-190 was likewise outclassed which is why the D9 variant was produced, that put the 190 back on a more even keel against the other fighters.

The 262 was an excellent bomber killer, but as a fighter it wasn't very good. It couldn't turn, it's MK 108 cannon were too short ranged for fighter combat, and it took a long time to get up to speed. The slashing attacks where they would fly up to the bomber stream and fire long bursts into a bomber and then climb away with a zoom climb was a very effective tool against bombers, but that wasn't an option against fighters.

 

[Daryl Hunt]

It failed so badly that it stopped almost all the cargo planes and supply ships from getting to port. It failed so badly that it took out many runways that the 109 operated from. What your German Pilot was probably talking about was hitting it when it was loaded down with bombs on a bombing mission. Now, have the 109 meet it at 15K with it not carrying the bombs.

Early on, many of the 38 pilots were extremely green on twin engine birds. They trained on single engine trainers. And they were met with 11-1 odds against them. The areas it operated in NA meant it didn't have any cover when on the bombing runs. This period was what I call the "Meat Grinder". The introduction of the P-47 in NA was a huge improvement and moved the P-38 into top cover when operating with the P-47s. As the number of P-47s started showing up, the odds changed fast until the allied fighters in NA ended up with a 11-1 ratio in their favor. Each day, the Luftwaffe available air fields were slowly pushed back until the Spit, P-40 and Hurricane could no longer operate over enemy territory. This left the P-38 on it's own until the P-47s showed up. It's not that the P-38 was a bad bird. It was that it was so overwhelmed that many were lost. But as the months went on, the Luftwaffe was whittled down a little each day.

The short comings were trained out once they figured out that the P-38 pilots needed special training. The Piggyback P-38 was a godsend where the pilots trained on a real P-38 instead of just being dumped into the seat of the single seater.

Your comment that the P-38 was an early warbird was correct. But so was the 109. Both just got better through constant upgrades. But in early 1943 the P-38 out shined the 109. It's equal was the 190 for a few months. Then the P-38J-LO-25 (dive brakes) hit the skies in numbers and the 190 was left out to dry. Until the advent of the P-51D, the main high altitude long ranged fighter was the P-38J-LO-15 (no dive brakes) with it's fowler flaps. The way the 109 and 190 avoided their lunches from being eaten was by going in to a high speed dive that the P-38 Pilots were forbidden to follow. When the -25 hit (and the upgrades to the -15 to -25 standard, there were quite a few luftwaffe pilots that died when they tried that same tried and true maneuver. And, for once, the P-38 Pilots got the training they needed to excel in their birds. It wasn't just the P-38 that got better, it was also the P-51 and the P-47. In the end, those 3 operated over enemy held areas with impunity. All 3 were involved in the early 1944 fighter sweeps that all but wiped out the Luftwaffe.

This is why I listed only those 3. The impact those 3 had for the war effort was more pronounced than they other fighters. There wasn't enough P-51B/Cs to take the P-38 out of the bomber escort business. When the P-51D arrived, it arrived with a vengence in numbers with over 8000 produced as compared to the C/B version of about 3000. But the C/B versions had some pretty serious teething problems that were, for the most part, ironed out in the D.

Until the P-38J, there were only 2210 P-38s made (F, G, H). There were many more P-47s built in 1943 than all the P-38s and P-51B/Cs combined.

BTW, the Luftaffen Pilots all claimed that the 190 was the equal to the P-51D. Going by what they said you can chalk it up as Public Relations for their pilots.

It is a well known fact that a single piston engine fighter is much more maneuverable. This is probably why neither the Bf 110 nor the P-38 had a successor.

"United States: Total losses were nearly 95,000, including 52,951 operational losses (38,418 in Europe and 14,533 in the Pacific)"
Equipment losses in World War II - Wikipedia

So maybe the US losses were 77.000 on the Western Front. This is the total of all German losses including heavily damaged. Britain suffered 40.000 losses (Europe) whereas the SU had 125.000 losses.
The Japanese losses are estimated to be between 35.000 and 50.000.

That was true until the advent of the Fowler Flaps and Dive Brakes. By throttling back the engine that they were turning into and firewalling the outboard and using the fowler flaps the P-38J and L could turn inside of a Zero. And could dive with the Zero and the two Luftwaffe Fighters. By the end of the war (ETO) the P-38L finally were in great numbers. They got the numbers up by opening a 2nd assembly plant by Consolidate Voltare.

The P-38L could dive at 600 mph.

Maybe, the agility had improved but it was still an issue. The Bf 109 succeeded greatly on all frontiers. There were also other planes like the FW 190 and even the Me 262. These three are to be compared to P-38, 47 and 51 to measure their capabilities.

I would agree up until early 1944. The New P-47D-XX was introduced with it's added power, added fuel capacity and paddle bladed props. Meanwhile, the P-51D was coming into the inventory as was the P-38J-LO-25. All 3 were faster and more maneuverable than either the 190 or the 109.

When you look at just this time period, which of the 3 are better is only determined with the specialized job it was sent to do.

I don´t think that is true. This is the time when the Americans adopted a new strategy: The fighters came first and confronted possible interceptors. The Westen Front is also not a good "tool" to measure the planes´ strength unless its one on one and not 1000 vs 100.

On that I agree. Saying the P-38F-H is inferior to the 109 and the 190 sounds good. But early on, the P-38 (in small numbers) faced 11-1 and not in their favor. It's hard to compare birds when the AAF Pilots are so inexperienced, flying a more complex bird and so out numbered. But by the time the real heavy weights showed up, the P-38 not only made dent but ended up with a 1.5 to one kill rate. It just looked really bad because so many P-38s were lost getting there. Let's face it, the Luftwaffe, arguably, had the most experienced fighter pilots during that time period.

In late 43 and on, it shifted. The P-47, and the P-38J-LO-15 (with the fowler flaps and hotter engines) came into the inventory plus the level of experience of the AAF Fighter Pilots had increase many times over. Also, during this time (middle 43 to early 44) Germany sent it's most experienced pilots to the Russian Front. In early 44. they started shifting them back to ETO to combat this new threat. In comparison, German had a finite supply of troops and equipment while the Allies seemed to have an infinite number. Not so from middle 43 and earlier where Germany had the advantage. When they changed to doctrine and released the fighters to go ahead of the bombers, everything changed. Germany lost more fighters that it could afford (losing the pilots is worse than losing the bird) and it allowed more bombers to get through which took even more resources and manufacturing away from Germany. When the fighter sweeps started, for all practical purposes, the war was lost by Germany.

 

[Bleipriester]

It is a well known fact that a single piston engine fighter is much more maneuverable. This is probably why neither the Bf 110 nor the P-38 had a successor.

"United States: Total losses were nearly 95,000, including 52,951 operational losses (38,418 in Europe and 14,533 in the Pacific)"
Equipment losses in World War II - Wikipedia

So maybe the US losses were 77.000 on the Western Front. This is the total of all German losses including heavily damaged. Britain suffered 40.000 losses (Europe) whereas the SU had 125.000 losses.
The Japanese losses are estimated to be between 35.000 and 50.000.

That was true until the advent of the Fowler Flaps and Dive Brakes. By throttling back the engine that they were turning into and firewalling the outboard and using the fowler flaps the P-38J and L could turn inside of a Zero. And could dive with the Zero and the two Luftwaffe Fighters. By the end of the war (ETO) the P-38L finally were in great numbers. They got the numbers up by opening a 2nd assembly plant by Consolidate Voltare.

The P-38L could dive at 600 mph.

Maybe, the agility had improved but it was still an issue. The Bf 109 succeeded greatly on all frontiers. There were also other planes like the FW 190 and even the Me 262. These three are to be compared to P-38, 47 and 51 to measure their capabilities.

I would agree up until early 1944. The New P-47D-XX was introduced with it's added power, added fuel capacity and paddle bladed props. Meanwhile, the P-51D was coming into the inventory as was the P-38J-LO-25. All 3 were faster and more maneuverable than either the 190 or the 109.

When you look at just this time period, which of the 3 are better is only determined with the specialized job it was sent to do.

I don´t think that is true. This is the time when the Americans adopted a new strategy: The fighters came first and confronted possible interceptors. The Westen Front is also not a good "tool" to measure the planes´ strength unless its one on one and not 1000 vs 100.

The 109 was completely outclassed by 1944. The only reason why it was able to do as good as it did was because of the pilots who flew it. They truly were among the finest ever to fly an aircraft. By late 1944 the FW-190 was likewise outclassed which is why the D9 variant was produced, that put the 190 back on a more even keel against the other fighters.

The 262 was an excellent bomber killer, but as a fighter it wasn't very good. It couldn't turn, it's MK 108 cannon were too short ranged for fighter combat, and it took a long time to get up to speed. The slashing attacks where they would fly up to the bomber stream and fire long bursts into a bomber and then climb away with a zoom climb was a very effective tool against bombers, but that wasn't an option against fighters.

Like other aircraft the 109 and the 190 were constantly improved. They were not outclassed and the 109 that entered service in 1937 proofed, it could face and defeat any opponent also at the end of the war.

The Me 262 had several issues that prevented it from becoming a standard fighter. While over 1400 units were produced, the series production could have begun already in 1943 but was rejected for the following reasons:
- Hitler did not support the jet engine. He once said the war will be won also with conventional planes.
- A massive series production as planned would have had serious negative consequences for the output of 109 planes. If hat gap could be bridged quick enough was doubted.

When the Me 262 finally was produced, Hitler suddenly intervened. The Me 262 was a pure fighter with - according to the pilots - excellent flight characteristics. It did not even have a small bomb bay. Its fuel was not rare, jet fuel requires less refining and is the cheapest fuel of all. Hitler intervened and demanded the Me 262 to be rebuilt to be "Blitzbombers" despite the fact that with the Ar 234, twin- and four-engined Blitzbombers were at the disposal of Germany. Hitler was such a fanatic moron, even referring to the 262 as a fighter was banned. Waiting to be rebuilt, many were destroyed on the ground. Its impact on the war could have been decisive, though.

The back then jet engines had a very low thrust, resulting in low acceleration when starting and a long distance to take off. This was used by allied pilots, when they tried to shoot them while starting. It was possible to mount two rockets under the wings that were ejected after the takeoff.
The Me 262 also could be armed with air to air missiles (R4M) and radar to engage bombers. Maintenance of the engines was due after almost every flight but the Me 262 could not only face bombers and fighters but also get away if the situation gets out of control.

 

[Bleipriester]

It is a well known fact that a single piston engine fighter is much more maneuverable. This is probably why neither the Bf 110 nor the P-38 had a successor.

"United States: Total losses were nearly 95,000, including 52,951 operational losses (38,418 in Europe and 14,533 in the Pacific)"
Equipment losses in World War II - Wikipedia

So maybe the US losses were 77.000 on the Western Front. This is the total of all German losses including heavily damaged. Britain suffered 40.000 losses (Europe) whereas the SU had 125.000 losses.
The Japanese losses are estimated to be between 35.000 and 50.000.

That was true until the advent of the Fowler Flaps and Dive Brakes. By throttling back the engine that they were turning into and firewalling the outboard and using the fowler flaps the P-38J and L could turn inside of a Zero. And could dive with the Zero and the two Luftwaffe Fighters. By the end of the war (ETO) the P-38L finally were in great numbers. They got the numbers up by opening a 2nd assembly plant by Consolidate Voltare.

The P-38L could dive at 600 mph.

Maybe, the agility had improved but it was still an issue. The Bf 109 succeeded greatly on all frontiers. There were also other planes like the FW 190 and even the Me 262. These three are to be compared to P-38, 47 and 51 to measure their capabilities.

I would agree up until early 1944. The New P-47D-XX was introduced with it's added power, added fuel capacity and paddle bladed props. Meanwhile, the P-51D was coming into the inventory as was the P-38J-LO-25. All 3 were faster and more maneuverable than either the 190 or the 109.

When you look at just this time period, which of the 3 are better is only determined with the specialized job it was sent to do.

I don´t think that is true. This is the time when the Americans adopted a new strategy: The fighters came first and confronted possible interceptors. The Westen Front is also not a good "tool" to measure the planes´ strength unless its one on one and not 1000 vs 100.

On that I agree. Saying the P-38F-H is inferior to the 109 and the 190 sounds good. But early on, the P-38 (in small numbers) faced 11-1 and not in their favor. It's hard to compare birds when the AAF Pilots are so inexperienced, flying a more complex bird and so out numbered. But by the time the real heavy weights showed up, the P-38 not only made dent but ended up with a 1.5 to one kill rate. It just looked really bad because so many P-38s were lost getting there. Let's face it, the Luftwaffe, arguably, had the most experienced fighter pilots during that time period.

In late 43 and on, it shifted. The P-47, and the P-38J-LO-15 (with the fowler flaps and hotter engines) came into the inventory plus the level of experience of the AAF Fighter Pilots had increase many times over. Also, during this time (middle 43 to early 44) Germany sent it's most experienced pilots to the Russian Front. In early 44. they started shifting them back to ETO to combat this new threat. In comparison, German had a finite supply of troops and equipment while the Allies seemed to have an infinite number. Not so from middle 43 and earlier where Germany had the advantage. When they changed to doctrine and released the fighters to go ahead of the bombers, everything changed. Germany lost more fighters that it could afford (losing the pilots is worse than losing the bird) and it allowed more bombers to get through which took even more resources and manufacturing away from Germany. When the fighter sweeps started, for all practical purposes, the war was lost by Germany.

I wonder, because if that German pilots were so experienced, that experience must come from somewhere.

 

[Syriusly]

Fun discussion.

i love the Jug- not because it was the best- but just because. Fun to see one next to a P-51- the P-47 dwarfs it.

I had a chance to watch a P38 race at the Reno Air Races years ago- and it was so much fun to watch- but it couldn't fly a tight course like that as well as the P-51's and Bearcats.

Thinking of the P-38, of course it did well in the Pacific- because of its range and firepower- and its role.
I don't think the P-38 was very good as a bomber escort. As I recall- as a bomber escort the P-51 was our best bomber escort.

 

[Daryl Hunt]

That was true until the advent of the Fowler Flaps and Dive Brakes. By throttling back the engine that they were turning into and firewalling the outboard and using the fowler flaps the P-38J and L could turn inside of a Zero. And could dive with the Zero and the two Luftwaffe Fighters. By the end of the war (ETO) the P-38L finally were in great numbers. They got the numbers up by opening a 2nd assembly plant by Consolidate Voltare.

The P-38L could dive at 600 mph.

Maybe, the agility had improved but it was still an issue. The Bf 109 succeeded greatly on all frontiers. There were also other planes like the FW 190 and even the Me 262. These three are to be compared to P-38, 47 and 51 to measure their capabilities.

I would agree up until early 1944. The New P-47D-XX was introduced with it's added power, added fuel capacity and paddle bladed props. Meanwhile, the P-51D was coming into the inventory as was the P-38J-LO-25. All 3 were faster and more maneuverable than either the 190 or the 109.

When you look at just this time period, which of the 3 are better is only determined with the specialized job it was sent to do.

I don´t think that is true. This is the time when the Americans adopted a new strategy: The fighters came first and confronted possible interceptors. The Westen Front is also not a good "tool" to measure the planes´ strength unless its one on one and not 1000 vs 100.

On that I agree. Saying the P-38F-H is inferior to the 109 and the 190 sounds good. But early on, the P-38 (in small numbers) faced 11-1 and not in their favor. It's hard to compare birds when the AAF Pilots are so inexperienced, flying a more complex bird and so out numbered. But by the time the real heavy weights showed up, the P-38 not only made dent but ended up with a 1.5 to one kill rate. It just looked really bad because so many P-38s were lost getting there. Let's face it, the Luftwaffe, arguably, had the most experienced fighter pilots during that time period.

In late 43 and on, it shifted. The P-47, and the P-38J-LO-15 (with the fowler flaps and hotter engines) came into the inventory plus the level of experience of the AAF Fighter Pilots had increase many times over. Also, during this time (middle 43 to early 44) Germany sent it's most experienced pilots to the Russian Front. In early 44. they started shifting them back to ETO to combat this new threat. In comparison, German had a finite supply of troops and equipment while the Allies seemed to have an infinite number. Not so from middle 43 and earlier where Germany had the advantage. When they changed to doctrine and released the fighters to go ahead of the bombers, everything changed. Germany lost more fighters that it could afford (losing the pilots is worse than losing the bird) and it allowed more bombers to get through which took even more resources and manufacturing away from Germany. When the fighter sweeps started, for all practical purposes, the war was lost by Germany.

I wonder, because if that German pilots were so experienced, that experience must come from somewhere.

They had been actively at war even before the rest of Europe. They flew their brand new BF109 in the Spanish Civil War. Nothing could equal it in that war. That war experience was carried directly into WWII.

 

[Daryl Hunt]

Fun discussion.

i love the Jug- not because it was the best- but just because. Fun to see one next to a P-51- the P-47 dwarfs it.

I had a chance to watch a P38 race at the Reno Air Races years ago- and it was so much fun to watch- but it couldn't fly a tight course like that as well as the P-51's and Bearcats.

Thinking of the P-38, of course it did well in the Pacific- because of its range and firepower- and its role.
I don't think the P-38 was very good as a bomber escort. As I recall- as a bomber escort the P-51 was our best bomber escort.

The reason the P-51 was a great Bomber Escort is that it was built to be one. It could do other things but not well. The B and C were slowly made into great bomber escorts when they were replaced by the D model. Being able to do just one thing that makes up a fighters world doesn't make it #1.

 

[Syriusly]

Fun discussion.

i love the Jug- not because it was the best- but just because. Fun to see one next to a P-51- the P-47 dwarfs it.

I had a chance to watch a P38 race at the Reno Air Races years ago- and it was so much fun to watch- but it couldn't fly a tight course like that as well as the P-51's and Bearcats.

Thinking of the P-38, of course it did well in the Pacific- because of its range and firepower- and its role.
I don't think the P-38 was very good as a bomber escort. As I recall- as a bomber escort the P-51 was our best bomber escort.

The reason the P-51 was a great Bomber Escort is that it was built to be one. It could do other things but not well. The B and C were slowly made into great bomber escorts when they were replaced by the D model. Being able to do just one thing that makes up a fighters world doesn't make it #1.

Agreed. However- as much as the P-51 is not my personal favorite- I think the P-51 does edge out because it was a great bomber escort and we had need for bomber escorts. It was probably our best overall fighter to fighter plane of the era. And it was servicable as a fighter bomber/strafer, but certainly not what the P-38/P-47 were.

If I had to pick just one of those planes- and be able to do all of those things- I would pick the P-51.

Reluctantly because I really love the P-47- which could also do those things, but it took much more skill.

 

[Bleipriester]

Maybe, the agility had improved but it was still an issue. The Bf 109 succeeded greatly on all frontiers. There were also other planes like the FW 190 and even the Me 262. These three are to be compared to P-38, 47 and 51 to measure their capabilities.

I would agree up until early 1944. The New P-47D-XX was introduced with it's added power, added fuel capacity and paddle bladed props. Meanwhile, the P-51D was coming into the inventory as was the P-38J-LO-25. All 3 were faster and more maneuverable than either the 190 or the 109.

When you look at just this time period, which of the 3 are better is only determined with the specialized job it was sent to do.

I don´t think that is true. This is the time when the Americans adopted a new strategy: The fighters came first and confronted possible interceptors. The Westen Front is also not a good "tool" to measure the planes´ strength unless its one on one and not 1000 vs 100.

On that I agree. Saying the P-38F-H is inferior to the 109 and the 190 sounds good. But early on, the P-38 (in small numbers) faced 11-1 and not in their favor. It's hard to compare birds when the AAF Pilots are so inexperienced, flying a more complex bird and so out numbered. But by the time the real heavy weights showed up, the P-38 not only made dent but ended up with a 1.5 to one kill rate. It just looked really bad because so many P-38s were lost getting there. Let's face it, the Luftwaffe, arguably, had the most experienced fighter pilots during that time period.

In late 43 and on, it shifted. The P-47, and the P-38J-LO-15 (with the fowler flaps and hotter engines) came into the inventory plus the level of experience of the AAF Fighter Pilots had increase many times over. Also, during this time (middle 43 to early 44) Germany sent it's most experienced pilots to the Russian Front. In early 44. they started shifting them back to ETO to combat this new threat. In comparison, German had a finite supply of troops and equipment while the Allies seemed to have an infinite number. Not so from middle 43 and earlier where Germany had the advantage. When they changed to doctrine and released the fighters to go ahead of the bombers, everything changed. Germany lost more fighters that it could afford (losing the pilots is worse than losing the bird) and it allowed more bombers to get through which took even more resources and manufacturing away from Germany. When the fighter sweeps started, for all practical purposes, the war was lost by Germany.

I wonder, because if that German pilots were so experienced, that experience must come from somewhere.

They had been actively at war even before the rest of Europe. They flew their brand new BF109 in the Spanish Civil War. Nothing could equal it in that war. That war experience was carried directly into WWII.

They didn´t have any serious opponents in Spain.

 

[Bleipriester]

I have found these interesting comparisons.

Bf-109 vs P-38 – Comparison – BVR – Dogfight
Fw-190 vs P-47 – Comparison – BVR – Dogfight
P-51 vs Me-262 – Comparison – BVR – Dogfight

Remarkable is that the Bf/Me 109 gets the most piston "Lethality Points" and ranks only second to the Me 262. The P-51 that I considered to be the best American fighter, sucks with only 60 Points compared to the 109´s 115 points.

If we rank the six planes by "Lethality Points" this would be the result:
Me 162 - 145 Points
Bf/Me 109 - 115 Points
P-47 - 80 Points
Fw 190 - 76 Points
P-38 - 75 Points
P-51 - 60 points

I have no clue what those "Lethality Points" are based on but I think it is the "Kill/Death ratio".

Compared to the P-51 the P-47 is somewhat ugly but I have to give it the point in the poll. Overall, it is difficult. The 109 is an outstanding aircraft produced in huge numbers but the Me 262 is a jet fighter.