Columbus Day? Let's change it to Mayflower Pilgrims Day

[Mushroom]

In the late 1800s, blankets from smallpox patients were distributed to Native Americans in order to spread disease.

A commonly spread myth, and largely not true. Hell, you can not even get the time frame correct.

It actually happened in the 1760s, and was by the British. They gave two blankets, and there is no evidence that there was any outbreak of the disease from it. Case in fact, the largest disease in the era among Indians was not even Small Pox, it was Measles. You are simply spreading the same old lie that is repeated over and over again, and it has no basis in fact.

In fact, during that era the very theory of "germs" did not even exist yet, and it was most commonly believed that disease was carried by bad air.

 

[Hellbilly]

A commonly spread myth, and largely not true. Hell, you can not even get the time frame correct.

It actually happened in the 1760s, and was by the British. They gave two blankets, and there is no evidence that there was any outbreak of the disease from it. Case in fact, the largest disease in the era among Indians was not even Small Pox, it was Measles. You are simply spreading the same old lie that is repeated over and over again, and it has no basis in fact.

In fact, during that era the very theory of "germs" did not even exist yet, and it was most commonly believed that disease was carried by bad air.

As I said, you're an idiot. So much so that you fail to realize those are not my words. Click the link.

 

[Mushroom]

The Sioux and the Iroquois alone exterminated or assimilated dozens, if not hundreds, of tribes in their expansionist phase north of the Aztecs.

I would not really say that, and have no idea where you get it from.

Yes, the Lakota were brutal and savage, but they had no interest in "assimilating" anybody. They were lime most of the nomadic tribes of the era. Occupying an area until it was played out, then moving on. And in their 400 year journey from the mid-Mississippi to the Dakotas they came into conflict with dozens of tribes. One of them (the Ojibwa) gave them the name they are most well known as by, Sioux. Which means "Little Rattlesnake".

And the "Iroquois" is not really a "tribe", but a confederacy of six tribes (commonly known as the "Six Nations"). And they were neither expansionist, nor interested in admitting other tribes (only adding the Tuscarora in 1722 as they were a group that left New England around 200 years earlier, and returned to the area as their own tribe. This is proven as their language is a variant of that spoken by the other Iroquois nation tribes.

And the Aztecs had already largely ended their "expansionist" era before Europeans "discovered" them. By the early 1500s they were mostly only going to to capture people for their recent tradition of mass sacrifices. They never really controlled all that much territory, and relied upon client tribes to do most of their "dirty work".

 

[Mushroom]

As I said, you're an idiot. So much so that you fail to realize those are not my words. Click the link.

You know what I find so damned funny?

When others try to tell me about my own culture, and that I am wrong and they are right. The very fact that one of your first references was Ward Churchill tell me all I need to know about your "references".

You are aware that he has been disgraced for well over a decade, right? His career was full of plagiarism, falsified research papers, outright theft of the work of others, trying to hijack the AIM movement and lying about his being of Indian descent in the first place, even stealing the art of actual Indian artists and trying to claim it as his own and suing them when they tried to stop him.

The guy is a proven fraud, and has angered almost every tribe he has worked with.

The very fact that you list him as one of your "references" tells me all I need to know about them. They are completely lies and bullshit, like Ward Churchill is.

He grit his teeth while talking, like he was chewing tobacco, and spat out his words with disgust. “American jockstrap sniffers,” he called his critics, in particular the academics who’d picked apart his scholarship and helped get him fired. He compared them to SS officers, to apparatchiks helping the trains of a supposedly corrupt University of Colorado system run on time. “That’s what Eichmann did,” he said. The crowd gasped with delight.

Churchill’s penchant for this comparison, ad-Nazium, runs deep. Each of his 18 books is a brick in a monumental project dedicated to proving that Native Americans were subjected to a genocide comparable to the Holocaust. The day after September 11, he published an essay describing the stockbrokers and technocrats who died in the Twin Towers as “little Eichmanns.” Right-wing media was incensed: The O’Reilly Factor aired 41 segments on him. The Weekly Standard tagged him “the worst professor in America.”

Yet by Churchill’s own admission, he, too, is part of the problem. During the inquiry into his scholarship, numerous newspaper investigations concluded that he’s at most only a sliver Native American. A 2005 investigation for the Rocky Mountain News by an Irish American reporter, Kevin Flynn, “turned up no evidence of a single Indian ancestor” among 142 of Churchill’s ancestors. Two of his great-grandparents identified themselves as Native American on census records—a fact that seems to support his claim to be 1/16 Cherokee—and the genealogical records Flynn consulted list the race and ethnicity of Churchill’s family members as “unknown,” not Caucasian. But none of that satisfied the critics who derided Churchill as a “pretendian.” “His words got him in trouble,” author Sherman Alexie told Mother Jones in 2009, “but he had lost plenty of Indian credibility before he lost white people’s credibility.”

“Even if that fucking Irish reporter is 100 percent right,” Churchill said, “how is the exact measure of how Native I am relevant to me being railroaded and stripped of tenure? I never claimed I was fucking Sitting Bull.”

"I never claimed I was f***ing Sitting Bull."

Ward Churchill, fiery ex-professor and Native American rights activist, is ready for his comeback.

www.motherjones.com

When even a source like Mother Jones can not make him look favorable, I can't understand why anybody would take any of his research seriously. And the very fact you are trying to use him as a reference tells me all I need to know about your "references".

 

[Admiral Rockwell Tory]

I've never been to Ohio, but naming a holiday after one city seems much. Oh wait....nevermind.

There is one of fairly decent size in Georgia too right outside what is soon to be Fort Moore.

 

[DudleySmith]

A commonly spread myth, and largely not true. Hell, you can not even get the time frame correct.

It actually happened in the 1760s, and was by the British. They gave two blankets, and there is no evidence that there was any outbreak of the disease from it. Case in fact, the largest disease in the era among Indians was not even Small Pox, it was Measles. You are simply spreading the same old lie that is repeated over and over again, and it has no basis in fact.

In fact, during that era the very theory of "germs" did not even exist yet, and it was most commonly believed that disease was carried by bad air.

All the blankets prove was there was already an outbreak in the region among whites already. The raids and exposure from the blood of afflicted ettlers they killed on the outlying farms would have been the primary vector via the tribe's warriors. It also makes no sense to give them to members of a friendly tribe if the intent was to infect an enemy tribe.

AS for smallpox, when a decent vaccine was finally developed in the early 1800's, the reservation tribes were among the first to be vaccinate. There is an article on it at History. net, but they have a long history of changing their links around and one has to do a lot of seached to keep them updated. Of course the usual distortions by leftists prevail on the history of that is spread around by the Stuck In The 60's frauds as well.

 

[DudleySmith]

Wisdom has been chasing you, but you've always been faster.

Keep quoting known frauds and liars, it does so much for your idiotic claims.

 

[JoeB131]

View attachment 708506

At the same time the Aztecs were doing that, White people in Europe were doing this.

But thanks for the racism!

 

[JoeB131]

God, I hate how so many have this Disneyfied concept of Indians, and think that everybody was like Pocahontas and had no war and lived at peace with everything. I actually find that more offensive than most other of the fantasy beliefs that many have.

Actually, if you want to go there, the real story of Pocahontas looked a lot worse for white people than the Disney Version.

In the actual version, her tribe welcomed white people and even helped them by feeding them. White people, being generally awful like we are, then took to outright stealing their food to the point where the tribe moved. They then kidnapped Pocahontas and took her back to England, where she died at the age of 21 from some nasty European diseases.

 

[Hellbilly]

Keep quoting known frauds and liars, it does so much for your idiotic claims.

I will. I'll quote who I want. I'll say what I want. I'll do what I want. You will do absolutely nothing about it.

 

[Weatherman2020]

At the same time the Aztecs were doing that, White people in Europe were doing this.

View attachment 708926

But thanks for the racism!

Why do you post racist pics?

 

[DudleySmith]

I will. I'll quote who I want. I'll say what I want. I'll do what I want. You will do absolutely nothing about it.

Dont need to, dumbasses like you are just here to be laughed at because you know nothing and don't know you're stupid halfwits with high self-esteem.

 

[Mushroom]

AS for smallpox, when a decent vaccine was finally developed in the early 1800's, the reservation tribes were among the first to be vaccinate.

But it must be remembered, "Germ Theory" did not even exist yet. And most people and scientists thought that disease came from "bad air". But they did realize that if you got a "light case" of Small Pox, you would likely survive a later infection. The very first scientists were starting to believe that "tiny animals" were causing disease, but they were mostly seen as "crackpots" and not many believed them.

And as things like blankets and clothing were so expensive, the selling of blankets, bedding, and even clothes of people who died of disease was common. With absolutely no concept of virus or bacteria, all people knew was that fabric and clothes were expensive, and selling them made sense.

And during that era, it was not even "vaccination" as we know of it today. In modern times, one gets either an attenuated infection from dead or mostly dead cells, or from a disease closely related to the one to be protected from but rather benign. It had long been known among those that worked cattle that if they had ever had Cow Pox, they were safe from Small Pox. But that was not actually scientifically proven until the very end of the 1700s.

One of the most striking yet accurate scenes from the miniseries "John Adams" was how inoculations at that time worked. "Doctors" literally went from town to town with somebody infected with Small Pox. They would then make a cut in a person and put scab material into the wound. In the hopes that they would get a minor and controllable case of the disease. But many still ended up developing a full blown case and dying, so it was not something that was done lightly.

 

[Mushroom]

I will. I'll quote who I want. I'll say what I want. I'll do what I want. You will do absolutely nothing about it.

Do whatever you like. Just know that those that really know and understand such things will simply laugh at you and ignore anything you try to claim.

But you should really think when you are trying to push the claims of idiotic liars that even Indians reject and hate.

 

[Weatherman2020]

At the same time the Aztecs were doing that, White people in Europe were doing this.

View attachment 708926

But thanks for the racism!

 

[JoeB131]

Why do you post racist pics?

Why do you never post any substance.

 

[Weatherman2020]

Why do you never post any substance.

View attachment 709157

Fox News promotes whites pretending to be native Americans?

 

[Pellinore]

But it must be remembered, "Germ Theory" did not even exist yet. And most people and scientists thought that disease came from "bad air". But they did realize that if you got a "light case" of Small Pox, you would likely survive a later infection. The very first scientists were starting to believe that "tiny animals" were causing disease, but they were mostly seen as "crackpots" and not many believed them.

And as things like blankets and clothing were so expensive, the selling of blankets, bedding, and even clothes of people who died of disease was common. With absolutely no concept of virus or bacteria, all people knew was that fabric and clothes were expensive, and selling them made sense.

And during that era, it was not even "vaccination" as we know of it today. In modern times, one gets either an attenuated infection from dead or mostly dead cells, or from a disease closely related to the one to be protected from but rather benign. It had long been known among those that worked cattle that if they had ever had Cow Pox, they were safe from Small Pox. But that was not actually scientifically proven until the very end of the 1700s.

One of the most striking yet accurate scenes from the miniseries "John Adams" was how inoculations at that time worked. "Doctors" literally went from town to town with somebody infected with Small Pox. They would then make a cut in a person and put scab material into the wound. In the hopes that they would get a minor and controllable case of the disease. But many still ended up developing a full blown case and dying, so it was not something that was done lightly.

Definitely. Inoculation in those days was no joke, and carried about a 2% mortality rate. Gen. Washington ordered it for the troops in 1777 (I think) so the soldiers would get sick during training, and recover in time for the field. He knew that Gen. Montgomery's attack on Quebec at the end of 1775 failed largely because of the damage that smallpox caused, and smallpox caused waaaay more deaths among soldiers than enemy action did. Imagine today's vaccines having a 2% mortality rate, but doing it anyway; he did, though, and it almost certainly saved the Continental Army during Valley Forge, among others.

 

[Pellinore]

Just in the interests of being correct about the Plymouth Colony ...

Those were great Americans, and the first Americans, with no loyalty to England or any other European cesspool, but only to their God and to each other.

First of all, by the time they had landed, the Jamestown Colony in Virginia had been in place for thirteen years, and the Spanish had been in New Mexico for 22 years and at St. Augustine for 55. All three of these settlements are still there today.

Also, the Plymouth colonists did not consider themselves Americans at all. They still owed their allegiance to King James, even declaring so on the Mayflower Compact. Speaking of which ...

They came over on one ship, while Columbus had a ship and two spares to make his journey far less dangerous. They set up a viable system of self-governance before even departing for America. They expected no help from any existing government, and they were right. Government never took interest in North America until American people thrived and created wealth, which attracts government as surely as chum attracts a shark.

They did not set up the Mayflower Compact until they had already landed, in November of 1620. And the British were interested in North America long before any settlement was made; Henry VII had sent John Cabot over more than a century earlier, and other settlements had well established the vast money-making possibilities of the land.

"Indiginous People's Day?" Give me a break. The natives that the Mayflower pilgrims met were not "Americans." They could not have drawn you a map of the Continent, or even much of their immediate surroundings. They could not have guess how far the ocean went from their shores, they had never had the brains, courage and initiative to explore it.

By the time the Mayflower landed, Tisquantum (Squanto), the local who met them and famously taught them how to grow food and survive, had been to Europe and back at least once, and spoke fluent English. He first met them by walking into the camp and saying, "Hello, white people." So he definitely knew how large the ocean was.

We brought them healthcare, plentiful food, literature, and a constitution copied by one of the few tribes that tried to follow our example and better themselves.

This, I should point out, is the age-old defense of imperialism. "We brought you tech, so you should be glad we took over." It went out of fashion, to say the least, just over a century ago at the end of World War I.

 

[Mushroom]

This, I should point out, is the age-old defense of imperialism. "We brought you tech, so you should be glad we took over." It went out of fashion, to say the least, just over a century ago at the end of World War I.

And most of which they did not need before then.

"Healthcare", in an era before even germ theory? Disease was not a major issue in the Americas as the population density was so low. And many anthrolopoligists link the collapse of the Mississippian Culture to disease, because it was the first time in "Mainland America" that population densities rose to a point where it became a problem. And it was a problem in Mexico even before Cortez landed. About all they brought them was a more advanced sanitation, which had developed over thousands of years in Europe.

And they already had "plentiful food". In a land of low population, no real good form of preservation, and no transportation other than humans on foot (remember, no native beasts of burden), what good would more food have done them? They could not take enough it anywhere to sell, and there was really nobody to sell it to. Most "villages" were under 1,000 people, and with farming so manpower intensive, there was simply no reason to grow much more than a village would need.

But there were already "Constitutions", especially among the Northern Tribes.

The Iroquois Confederacy was a group of 5 closely related tribes in the "Great League of Peace". Each independent, but combined having a Grand Council composed of 50 chiefs, each acting as a representative for their individual tribe. Where each had equal say, no matter how big their tribe was. And making decisions as a body that would affect the entire Confederation.

And for my own ancestors, it was similar. The Algonquin Family is based out of the Western Great Lakes area, and is composed of three groups commonly called the "Council of Three Fires". These were the Ojibwe (Older Brother), the Odawa (Middle Brother), and the Potawatomie (Younger Brother, and my ancestors). Believed to each have descended from a brother when an older larger tribe broke up when it became too large. The Ojibwe were the "Keepers of the Faith", the Odawa the "Keepers of Trade", and the Potawatomie the "Keepers of the Fire". Each would send representatives each year to a meeting place that rotated between each tribe, and making decisions together that would affect all of them. And that was formed over 700 years before Columbus set sail on his voyage.

And they had no "literature", because once again there was no need to. No Neolithic cultures in Europe, Asia, or Africa were literate either.

It amazes me how ignorant people are about what the people of North America were like before the Europeans arrived. That did not arrive anywhere in Eurasia until the Chalcolithic Age, as until there was enough items to trade and store there was simply no reason to develop it. However, in the areas that were already into the equivalent of the Chalcolithic or Bronze Age, writing had indeed developed (like the Aztecs). And the Aztec writing was actually more advanced than any equivalent Eurasian writing system of a similar state of development. Not being symbolic, but more of a phonetic system that also used symbols. Kind of a combination of Egyptian and early Semitic writing.

So literally he is listing things that no culture anywhere had developed when at a similar state of technological and population advancement. In fact, there is much more proof that in the Americas you had a system much more like what we know of as "Representative Governments" than anything seen in Europe or Asia at a similar technological standpoint. Where they tended more towards Absolute Religious based Monarchy as their forms of government.