Cognitive Dissonance

[Carl in Michigan]

And I would count it as intellectual honesty instead of cognitive dissonance if the vegans could at least admit that killing animals for food need not be brutal

Tell me how killing another sentient being who wants to live and cares for her offspring exactly as you do "doesn't have to be brutal"?

 

[Carl in Michigan]

You have to presume to know what God's will is though Buttercup to say what another must believe. Praying for God's will and dictating what it has to look like are two entirely different things. I won't presume to be of the pay grade to know what God's will is for you or even me. But I do pray to fit into His will.

God created humankind to thrive as omnivores. The fact that some do not have to be or choose to be omnivorous to thrive does not change the fact that human beings for all recorded history have been omnivorous. I think at some point, if that was sin, God would have told us.

The Hamas' kidnappers, rapists and murderers also think their god approve is of their demonic behavior.

They do what they do, and their god approves.

No, Christians above all others are not permitted to harm another INNOCENT life. We were called OUT of this worlds customs

 

[buttercup]

We were called OUT of this worlds customs

Amen to that! That's what I was trying to say to FF earlier, this fallen world is not our real home! We were called OUT of this world! Again, another thing that I really don't see can be argued from a biblical perspective.

 

[Foxfyre]

Genesis 1:29-30 IS clear.

So is Genesis 9:3.

Again proof texting is maybe the worst possible way to debate me re my point of view about anything. I gave that up long ago and won't use it now as I consider it intellectually dishonest for at least me to do.

I take the Bible in full context, as a whole, with all the history, metaphor, law, wisdom literature, poetry, teaching stories, everything. And I refuse to engage in cognitive dissonance to pretend some verses don't exist while holding up others as authoritative. It is an amazing collection of manuscripts and I am 100% certain that God speaks to us through those manuscripts as well as in other ways.

But I also look at the history of homo sapiens back as far as the paleontological records will take us and humankind has been omnivorous the whole way. If that was wrong or evil, I still think God would have let us know.

 

[Foxfyre]

Tell me how killing another sentient being who wants to live and cares for her offspring exactly as you do "doesn't have to be brutal"?

Because when done humanely the animal has no idea it is coming, feels no pain, suffers not at all. One shot or whatever and it's done. No the animal won't live out its full lifespan but it can have an absolutely wonderful life up until that moment. Nobody ethically kills an animal caring for an offspring for food or sport.

 

[Foxfyre]

The Hamas' kidnappers, rapists and murderers also think their god approve is of their demonic behavior.

They do what they do, and their god approves.

No, Christians above all others are not permitted to harm another INNOCENT life. We were called OUT of this worlds customs

Which has absolutely nothing to do with what we have been discussing.

 

[buttercup]

So is Genesis 9:3.

Again proof texting is maybe the worst possible way to debate me re my point of view about anything. I gave that up long ago and won't use it now as I consider it intellectually dishonest for at least me to do.

I take the Bible in full context, as a whole, with all the history, metaphor, law, wisdom literature, poetry, teaching stories, everything. And I refuse to engage in cognitive dissonance to pretend some verses don't exist while holding up others as authoritative. It is an amazing collection of manuscripts and I am 100% certain that God speaks to us through those manuscripts as well as in other ways.

But I also look at the history of homo sapiens back as far as the paleontological records will take us and humankind has been omnivorous the whole way. If that was wrong or evil, I still think God would have let us know.

You're ignoring the fact that one of those scriptures is how God designed and INTENDED the world to be. From the beginning (Gen 1:29-30) to the end (Is 11:6-9)

And the other one is (arguably) a concession due to the continual wickedness of mankind's heart.

So why do you choose the scripture pertaining to this fallen world, when we as followers of Christ are called OUT of this world? We are supposed to want God's perfect will, on earth as it is in heaven.

You say you take the bible as a whole, but what you're actually doing is dismissing God's INTENT made clear in the beginning and the end..... and focusing soley on the middle, the part pertaining to this fallen world.

But even IN the middle part, we are STILL commanded to be merciful! To do all things in love. To be kind, gentle and compassionate, to treat others the way we would want to be treated.

So even the middle doesn't support the bloodbath!

 

[buttercup]

Because when done humanely the animal has no idea it is coming, feels no pain, suffers not at all. One shot or whatever and it's done. No the animal won't live out its full lifespan but it can have an absolutely wonderful life up until that moment. Nobody ethically kills an animal caring for an offspring for food or sport.

That is simply not the case, not in factory farms, which is where the overwhelming majority of meat comes from.

The animals KNOW it's coming! They clearly have FEAR in their eyes. They are frightened beyond words. Who wouldn't be, when you know you're about to be butchered in a setting that looks like a horror movie?

I have posted videos, that I don't think you or the others have looked at.

 

[Foxfyre]

You're ignoring the fact that one of those scriptures is how God designed and INTENDED the world to be. From the beginning (Gen 1:29-30) to the end (Is 11:6-9)

And the other one is (arguably) a concession due to the continual wickedness of mankind's heart.

So why do you choose the scripture pertaining to this fallen world, when we as followers of Christ are called OUT of this world? We are supposed to want God's perfect will, on earth as it is in heaven.

You say you take the bible as a whole, but what you're actually doing is dismissing God's INTENT made clear in the beginning and the end..... and focusing soley on the middle, the part pertaining to this fallen world.

But even IN the middle part, we are STILL commanded to be merciful! To do all things in love. To be kind, gentle and compassionate, to treat others the way we would want to be treated.

So even the middle doesn't support the bloodbath!

Nobody arguing for consuming animal protein has been arguing for any kind of blood bath. It is very dishonest to keep characterizing it that way.

But I do not presume to know the mind of God or claim authority to have any inside knowledge on why God does what he does or how He does it. I know God loves me and my relationship with Him is real. Maybe you have a higher authority than I do, and if so so be it. But I will not and cannot interpret the Scriptures as you insist they be interpreted.

And if we can't agree on that, oh well.

 

[buttercup]

Nobody arguing for consuming animal protein has been arguing for any kind of blood bath. It is very dishonest to keep characterizing it that way.

92.2 billion animals needlessly slaughtered a year IS a bloodbath. I don't see how that can be denied.

But I do not presume to know the mind of God or claim authority to have any inside knowledge on why God does what he does or how He does it. I know God loves me and my relationship with Him is real. Maybe you have a higher authority than I do, and if so so be it. But I will not and cannot interpret the Scriptures as you insist they be interpreted.

And if we can't agree on that, oh well.

Don't get me wrong. I can tell that you don't have bad intentions, and you are sincere in what you've been posting. I never once said or thought that you have a relationship with God that is not real.

But the problem is, like so many other people, you have some ideas about the way things are (in the animal industries) that is simply not the reality.

Also, please don't take offense to this, but the way you continually use the phrase "animal protein" is (even if it's not intentional) a euphemism, a way of sidestepping the actual reality. The reality is not as pretty. What people are eating was a sentient innocent animal who is just like your dog or cat, in all the ways that matter. An animal who desperately wanted to live, and in most cases fought for their life til the end.

It's not that I'm trying to make you or anyone feel guilty, but that's the reality. I bring this up because you keep referring to it as 'animal protein.'

But anyway, it appears that your mind is made up, so like I said before, I don't want to belabor the point. I do hope you look at some of those videos posted, when you have the time.

 

[Foxfyre]

92.2 billion animals needlessly slaughtered a year IS a bloodbath. I don't see how that can be denied.




Don't get me wrong. I can tell that you don't have bad intentions, and you are sincere in what you've been posting. I never once said or thought that you have a relationship with God that is not real.

But the problem is, like so many other people, you have some ideas about the way things are (in the animal industries) that is simply not the reality.

Also, please don't take offense to this, but the way you continually use the phrase "animal protein" is (even if it's not intentional) a euphemism, a way of sidestepping the actual reality. The reality is not as pretty. What people are eating was a sentient innocent animal who is just like your dog or cat, in all the ways that matter. An animal who desperately wanted to live, and in most cases fought for their life til the end.

It's not that I'm trying to make you or anyone feel guilty, but that's the reality. I bring this up because you keep referring to it as 'animal protein.'

But anyway, it appears that your mind is made up, so like I said before, I don't want to belabor the point. I do hope you look at some of those videos posted, when you have the time.

Many billions of people on Earth being malnourished, sick, weakened, dying far too young because of inadequate protein, iron, D3, B12 and other necessary nutrients would also be a blood bath. And that's what we will have if animal protein is removed as a food source.

I do not need to look at any videos hand picked to convince people of one single perspective when that is not the only perspective that should be considered in order for cognitive dissonance not to do away with common sense. I take no pleasure in seeing animals mistreated, abused, tortured. It is torture for me to see it. I certainly know that is the existence for far too many.

It doesn't have to be that way and I will go to my grave speaking out against it. And that is in no way in conflict with my belief that most of humankind is intended to be omnivorous.

 

[buttercup]

Many billions of people on Earth being malnourished, sick, weakened, dying far too young because of inadequate protein, iron, D3, B12 and other necessary nutrients would also be a blood bath. And that's what we will have if animal protein is removed as a food source.

I do not need to look at any videos hand picked to convince people of one single perspective when that is not the only perspective that should be considered in order for cognitive dissonance not to do away with common sense. I take no pleasure in seeing animals mistreated, abused, tortured. It is torture for me to see it. I certainly know that is the existence for far too many.

It doesn't have to be that way and I will go to my grave speaking out against it. And that is in no way in conflict with my belief that most of humankind is intended to be omnivorous.

That is not only wrong, but it's almost completely upside-down. In fact, we would be able to feed FAR more people if the world wasn't so obsessed with eating decaying corpses. Do you have any idea how much much resources it takes to feed and maintain the animals people eat? A crazy, ridiculous amount of resources, and it is completely unnecessary. We went through this before. Meat is not nutritionally necessary. Not to mention the fact that we've been consistently destroying forests worldwide to make room for animal agriculture. In fact, something like 80% of the deforestation in the Amazon is due to cattle ranching. Its unsustainable.

So it is simply false (and not only false, but extremely sensationalisticly false) to say that the world would be "malnourished, sick, dying" yada yada yada. Quite the contrary. In parts of the world that eat less meat, people are generally healthier. And in the US, we are fat, sick, and dying daily in ridiculous numbers from preventable diseases like heart disease which has consistently been linked to a diet high in meat, going back decades.

Maybe Blues Man can expand on what I've been saying here, he seems to be very knowledge on this topic from a health standpoint.

As for you not wanting to watch the videos I shared... I didn't have to "handpick" them, because you can see the same thing yourself if you were to simply go to YouTube and do a search for the truth about factory farms. In other words, not from the huge money making businesses who stand to lose financially if the truth is brought to the light.... but by regular people who have gone undercover to film what goes on there. Thanks to the internet, what has been going on behind closed doors is becoming more and more known to the public as time goes on. But I can see there's still a long way to go, as both you and ding were under the assumption that the animals live good lives before their slaughter day. That is so far from the truth, and for that reason it's really sad to me that some people refuse to look at the reality.

 

[Blues Man]

Yes conversations evolve from one topic to the next naturally. But if I choose not to get completely off track of what the is topic of the conversation, most especially when it adds nothing to the discussion, oh well. I have not demanded that you discuss anything but give you the opportunity to do so. You keep trying to divert me to a different topic and I haven't taken that bait. That was not in any way in any disrespect to you but because I think the concept of cognitive dissonance to be interesting and don't want the topic diverted from that.

I don't think any law, rule, regulation, what rights exist affect cognitive dissonance in any way.

You also gave two entirely unrelated examples in your OP that suggested ALL sorts of cognitive dissonance could be discussed. But when it became obvious that your intent was to promote veganism I went along with that because there is a lot of room for cognitive dissonance.

And bottom line, people can be ethical and consistent in choosing veganism.
And people can be ethical and consistent who don't choose veganism.

I used veganism because everyone has to eat and therefore what we all choose to eat and why applies literally to everyone. It's also a subject I know and have experience with. I ate meat for most of my life so I too was guilty of that same cognitive dissonance about what I ate.

And isn't anyone who chooses to eat one animal not experiencing cognitive dissonance when that same person refuses to eat another animal? People get sickened at the idea of eating their dogs or cats and even if they were starving to death they would not kill their dogs or cats to eat them but killing and eating other animals isn't given a thought.

That particular cognitive dissonance appears to be universal among a very large number of people.

I could have used the irrational loyalty to a political party but I really don't care about politics that much.

 

[Blues Man]

All people do not have a choice to get complete protein from their food supply. Protein is a necessary component of the human diet. So would you have millions of people suffer or die of malnutrition rather than have them consume animal protein?

Yes vegans can be healthy if they have the know how and ability to combine foods in specific ways to provide complete proteins. But recent studies show that overall cases of anemia in vegans and vegetarians are measurably higher than in those who consume animal protein.

You do not need to eat complete proteins all you have to eat is foods with the 9 essential amino acids and your body can manufacture all the protein it needs. When you eat meat your body breaks down all those proteins back into amino acids anyway.

And no you do not have to combine foods in specific ways that's just another bit of misinformation passed around.

The only thing that you get from meat that is difficult to get from a whole food plant based diet is B 12 and some trace minerals and those are easily supplemented.

And like I said veganism is not a diet it's an ethical stance. There are lots of unhealthy vegetarians and vegans out there but then again there are lots of unhealthy meat eaters out there too so even if you eat meat you have to know what a healthy diet actually is.

And there are a lot of people who eat meat who are anemic and B 12 deficient as well. It' is easy to remedy and there are plenty of plants that provide iron. The animals you eat for meat to get iron get that iron from plants don't they?

There are no nutritional concerns that you can give as a reason to eat meat that can't be addressed

 

[Blues Man]

I'm not arguing that vegans cannot be or aren't quite healthy in their food choices. Probably most in developed countries are. I do not in any way judge or fault those who make that choice.

But many, maybe most people on Earth have neither the knowledge to combine them or even access to all the foods that vegans have in the USA. To remove meat/fish/poultry from their diets would be to condemn them to serious malnutrition and/or death. Likewise would people who eat only beef and nothing else be extremely unhealthy. But there are studies of people who consume ONLY animal protein who are completely healthy.

The same rules simply do not work for every individual.

If we are intellectually honest, veganism or any other regimented diet is not the answer for everybody.

Which I specifically stipulated many times.

Those of us in developed countries do have the choice whether to eat meat or not because it is unnecessary for our survival.

And I never said once that it was the answer for everybody. But you also have to find it interesting that when food for starving people is an actual necessity that the bulk of that food delivered tends to be rice, other grains and beans but not meat.

People have been duped into believing they need far more protein than they actually do.

 

[Blues Man]

Many billions of people on Earth being malnourished, sick, weakened, dying far too young because of inadequate protein, iron, D3, B12 and other necessary nutrients would also be a blood bath. And that's what we will have if animal protein is removed as a food source.

I do not need to look at any videos hand picked to convince people of one single perspective when that is not the only perspective that should be considered in order for cognitive dissonance not to do away with common sense. I take no pleasure in seeing animals mistreated, abused, tortured. It is torture for me to see it. I certainly know that is the existence for far too many.

It doesn't have to be that way and I will go to my grave speaking out against it. And that is in no way in conflict with my belief that most of humankind is intended to be omnivorous.

Yet when relief efforts to bring food to these starving people are organized the very first thing they supply are grains, rice, and beans.

 

[Blues Man]

All animal protein doesn't come from factory farming. I try to buy my protein from those who raise it ethically.

Again just because some animals are treated inhumanely, and many of them are probably in most cultures in the world, that does not extrapolate to the fact that omnivores are okay with animal cruelty.

The vegans, if they are going to say that everybody but them is immoral, are going to have to come up with a better argument than that.

The vast majority of the meat eaten in developed countries comes from factory farming.

By admitting you know factory farming is cruel but you still support that industry by buy its products aren't you saying by your actions that you are OK with that cruelty?

And I never used the word immoral. If you think I have then quote the post where I said that.

 

[sparky]

One can easily find all the theologians take on any given biblical passage >

Genesis 9:3 - The Covenant of the Rainbow

Everything that lives and moves will be food for you; just as I gave you the green plants, I now give you all things.

biblehub.com

Genesis 1:29 Commentaries: Then God said, "Behold, I have given you every plant yielding seed that is on the surface of all the earth, and every tree which has fruit yielding seed; it shall be food for you;

(one ex)

note the many versions......translations......

The word of God, spun round the campfire of human interpretation for over two millennium resulting in humanities best example of cognitive dissonance incarnate

~S~

 

[Blues Man]

One can easily find all the theologians take on any given biblical passage >

Genesis 9:3 - The Covenant of the Rainbow

Everything that lives and moves will be food for you; just as I gave you the green plants, I now give you all things.

biblehub.com

Genesis 1:29 Commentaries: Then God said, "Behold, I have given you every plant yielding seed that is on the surface of all the earth, and every tree which has fruit yielding seed; it shall be food for you;

(one ex)

note the many versions......translations......

The word of God, spun round the campfire of human interpretation for over two millennium resulting in humanities best example of cognitive dissonance incarnate

~S~

What's the bible got to do with that fact that it is unnecessary to eat meat?

 

[sparky]

What's the bible got to do with that fact that it is unnecessary to eat meat?

perhaps there's a biblical diet plan i missed Blues?

and HE's a pharmacist too!!!!>

bon biblical appetite! ~S~