Cognitive Dissonance

[Blues Man]

perhaps there's a biblical diet plan i missed Blues?

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and HE's a pharmacist too!!!!>
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bon biblical appetite! ~S~

I'll stick to diets reccommended by medical doctors and not some religious book from the Iron Age

 

[ding]

It's not a matter of "belief".... it's a demonstrably true fact that factory farms are a horrible place for animals, and the standard practices that take place every day are not even up for debate. It's just the reality, and you can see some of it for yourself if you had watched the videos I posted.

Here's a documentary to watch, if you really want to know...

I think you are only seeing half the picture. The half you want to see.

 

[Foxfyre]

I used veganism because everyone has to eat and therefore what we all choose to eat and why applies literally to everyone. It's also a subject I know and have experience with. I ate meat for most of my life so I too was guilty of that same cognitive dissonance about what I ate.

And isn't anyone who chooses to eat one animal not experiencing cognitive dissonance when that same person refuses to eat another animal? People get sickened at the idea of eating their dogs or cats and even if they were starving to death they would not kill their dogs or cats to eat them but killing and eating other animals isn't given a thought.

That particular cognitive dissonance appears to be universal among a very large number of people.

I could have used the irrational loyalty to a political party but I really don't care about politics that much.

I think culture is something different from cognitive dissonance. We can know that many cultures do eat dogs and cats without giving it another thought without having to include that in our own culture. It isn't cognitive dissonance at all. The poor of India commonly eat cats but their Hindu religion makes them reject beef as cows are revered while cats are not.

One can be an omnivore and still know that factory farming is wrong. One can be an omnivore and still demand the ethical treatment of animals. And factory farming of plants can also be destructive to both man and beast. But the vegans on this thread will not acknowledge that. Cognitive dissonance? The vegans I know and who come to dinner here do understand that.

I also cannot go along with demanding that one's interpretation of one passage of scripture be adopted as God's will but we can ignore all the other passages of scripture that contradict our interpretation.

But as the vegans on this thread are getting more and more agitated that I will not accept their 'religion' and refuse to concede that I understand and care every bit as much as they do how animals are misused and abused, I'm going to leave this thread. The topic of cognitive dissonance is interesting but since it isn't a thread about that but rather promoting veganism, and the discussion has become circular with nothing more that can be said, I will drop out.

I wish you all well. And if you are ever at my table, I will have excellent vegan food for you. And will not expect animal protein if I am invited to yours.

Have a good one everybody. Waves bye. . .

 

[Blues Man]

I think culture is something different from cognitive dissonance. We can know that many cultures do eat dogs and cats without giving it another thought without having to include that in our own culture. It isn't cognitive dissonance at all. The poor of India commonly eat cats but their Hindu religion makes them reject beef as cows are revered while cats are not.

But as the vegans on this thread are getting more and more agitated that I will not accept their 'religion' and refuse to concede that I understand every bit as much as they do how animals are misused and abused, I'm going to leave this thread. The topic of cognitive dissonance is interesting but since it isn't a thread about that but rather promoting veganism, I think there isn't any more to be said on that.

I wish you all well. And if you are ever at my table, I will have excellent vegan food for you. And will not expect animal protein if I am invited to yours.

Have a good one everybody. Waves bye. . .

Veganism is not a religion. You talk about intellectual honesty all the time and you stoop to that c rap?

I already explained to you why I used veganism; eating is one of the only things I know that absolutely everyone has to do.

Feel free to bring in m ore examples if you want.

 

[Foxfyre]

Veganism is not a religion. You talk about intellectual honesty all the time and you stoop to that c rap?

I already explained to you why I used veganism; eating is one of the only things I know that absolutely everyone has to do.

Feel free to bring in m ore examples if you want.

One last comment in self defense. I put 'religion' in quotation marks to indicate metaphor--did you miss that? But religion is the only source I know from which humankind gets their sense of ethics. Even the Atheists. Sorry you think that crap or intellectually dishonest.

 

[Blues Man]

One last comment in self defense. I put 'religion' in quotation marks to indicate metaphor--did you miss that? But religion is the only source I know from which humankind gets their sense of ethics. Even the Atheists. Sorry you think that crap or intellectually dishonest.

Religion and ethics are not mutually inclusive. In fact ethics did not originate in religion

 

[buttercup]

I think you are only seeing half the picture. The half you want to see.

I'm not the one refusing to look at videos or other info that contradicts my preexisting views. That would be a couple of you on this thread. Which is the equivalent of covering your eyes and ears and going "la la la la la" (demonstrated by our friend Lloyd Christmas below.)

But go ahead, what half do you think I'm not seeing?

 

[buttercup]

Nobody is arguing that some practices of the meat and poultry industry are horrendous and indefensible. I have protested that many times.

But because some people are cruel and/or evil should not be extrapolated to ALL people who consume animal protein are cruel and/or evil. Because that simply is not true.

I don't want to speak for him, but I don't think that's what he was saying. Most people are unknowingly paying for cruelty. Keyword unknowingly. Therefore I would never say they are cruel... just blissfully unaware of what they're participating in.

However, there IS a spectrum on that. I think some people have some idea of what goes on, but choose to not think about it. And others might know much more about what actually goes on. And then there are people who know full well what goes on, but still participate in it. The latter obviously is much different than those who live in the fantasy world that these animals are skipping happily in the sunlight having a wonderful time before the day their throats are slit. The latter is clearly choosing one's own temporary sensory pleasure over compassion, mercy and justice.

 

[Blues Man]

I don't want to speak for him, but I don't think that's what he was saying. Most people are unknowingly paying for cruelty. Keyword unknowingly. Therefore I would never say they are cruel... just blissfully unaware of what they're participating in.

However, there IS a spectrum on that. I think some people have some idea of what goes on, but choose to not think about it. And others might know much more about what actually goes on. And then there are people who know full well what goes on, but still participate in it. The latter obviously is much different than those who live in the fantasy world that these animals are skipping happily in the sunlight having a wonderful time before the day their throats are slit. The latter is clearly choosing one's own temporary sensory pleasure over compassion, mercy and justice.

Most are ignorant of where their meat comes from and others know and don't care.

My question was always if meat is unnecessary for nutrition is there any justification for killing animals other than the pleasure of the people who eat them?

If that is the case then people have to admit they are killing animals for their pleasure

But none of them can ever just admit that.

And the same commentary applies here. that this is not possible for every single person on the planet but those of us who live in wealthy developed countries have the luxury to make such choices

 

[buttercup]

My question was always if meat is unnecessary for nutrition is there any justification for killing animals other than the pleasure of the people who eat them?

If that is the case then people have to admit they are killing animals for their pleasure

But none of them can ever just admit that.

EXACTLY. That's really what it boils down to. If it's not necessary (which it isn't) then ultimately it comes down to people choosing their own base sensory desires over compassion, respect, and the Golden Rule.

And I'll probably get lambasted for saying this, but that is basically the moral philosophy of people like Ted Bundy or Jeffrey Dahmer… who chose their own pleasure above all else.

 

[ding]

I'm not the one refusing to look at videos or other info that contradicts my preexisting views. That would be a couple of you on this thread. Which is the equivalent of covering your eyes and ears and going "la la la la la" (demonstrated by our friend Lloyd Christmas below.)

But go ahead, what half do you think I'm not seeing?

The half where you apply that to every animal for every second of their existence.

 

[buttercup]

The half where you apply that to every animal for every second of their existence.

I never said or thought that that applies to every animal every second of their existence. I was specifically talking about factory farms (but it's not limited to factory farms.)

But that said, I'm not sure what your point is. I hope you're not saying that because not all animals in existence are being treated like mere objects, that makes it OK for the diabolical stuff that does occur?

Anyway... I really don't have time right now to stick around, I have a busy day and I need to sign off of here. I'll try to get back here later.

 

[CarlinAnnArbor]

So you place the same value on a mosquito as you do on a human?

Depends on the human. I might let a mosquito live. Not Hamas

 

[sparky]

I'm going to leave this thread.

you spoke well here FF

Religion and ethics are not mutually inclusive.

more mutually exclusive Blues

if meat is unnecessary for nutrition

so where would one's protein source come from?
~S~

 

[CarlinAnnArbor]

so where would one's protein source come from?

Answered too many times to keep repeating it. At some point the excuses aren't taken seriously. Besides, you have an interest in keeping people ignorant

 

[Blues Man]

you spoke well here FF

more mutually exclusive Blues

so where would one's protein source come from?
~S~

Where does a cow's protein come from?

Where does an elephant's protein come from.

Plants are the primary source of all protein for animals you eat so just cut out the middleman.

 

[Blues Man]

Let's add another layer to this.

I was listening to a lecture by Alan Watts and he brought up the question;

Would you be comfortable if all you thoughts were known to other people? If a person could see what you are thinking at any time without you knowing would you be OK with that?

I think the obvious answer you would get from just about everyone is an emphatic "Hell NO!"

But isn't this also a cognitive dissonance?

Humans are duplicitous by nature and we can often think things that are 100% diametrically opposed to what we do.

For example: Engaging in a polite conversation and being courteous while mentally calling the person you are engaging with an asshole or worse.

Can we as humans ever have our thoughts and actions be in 100% agreement? What kind of effort would that require?

 

[sealybobo]

I have to say this topic has always fascinated me.

Over my life I have been as affected by it as anyone else. When I was in my early 30's I met a couple of exceptional people, a Buddhist monk and a man who was a welder but held a PhD in Philosophy. Both these men were such positive influences that to this day I am grateful to both of them for their friendship and wisdom. I don't want to think about where i would be today if I hadn't met them. Both of them have helped to live an examined life. But I digress.


Let's start with a working definition then some examples.

Cognitive Dissonance
Cognitive dissonance occurs when a person's beliefs conflicts with other previously held beliefs. It describes the feelings of discomfort resulting from having the two conflicting beliefs. In order to reduce or possibly eliminate the dissonance, something must change because of the discrepancy between the person's beliefs and behaviors.

It's a simple definition for such a prevalent condition.

Examples:

One that is very relevant today is the CD that involves politicians.

People will find a way to excuse the bad deeds the person they support and to magnify the bad deeds of the person they don't support. This also manifests in being unable to credit a politician you do not support for doing something you might actually agree with and ignoring the deeds of the politician you support when they do something you disagree with.

One that I experience a lot these days is People saying they love animals but who eat animals.

Example:

A man is mowing his lawn and purposely runs over a flock of baby ducks and macerates them with the mower blades. A man with his child witness the event and call the cops. The man on the mower gets charged with animal cruelty. The witness then takes his child out to breakfast and orders scrambled eggs for himself and his child. Now the egg industry doesn't want male chicks so right after male chicks are hatched they are fed into a macerating machine where they are ground up alive. But the man calmly eats his eggs without feeling the need to call the police.

and one more

The sour grapes phenomenon. This is actually addressed in one of Aesop's fables about a fox who cannot reach grapes that he wants. He experiences cognitive dissonance and to ease his frustration; he decides the grapes must be sour and therefore undesirable.

I think we all see people do this every day.

Are we as humans cursed to live with these thoughts and behaviors that clash? Does it bother people as much as it should? Do we just accept that humans are duplicitous?

If we don't want to live a life in contradiction to our beliefs what should we do?

So all I hear from Republicans is that uneducated unskilled labor is only worth $15 hr. But then this is Trump's demographic. Specially uneducated whites. And these people are living in economic despair. But then they argue against unions, against affordable college. This must be causing them cognitive dissonance. Trump thinks his supporters are worth $15. So how is he going to make America great for them again? Is he going to bring back high paying union jobs?

 

[Libby von H]

I have to say this topic has always fascinated me.

Over my life I have been as affected by it as anyone else. When I was in my early 30's I met a couple of exceptional people, a Buddhist monk and a man who was a welder but held a PhD in Philosophy. Both these men were such positive influences that to this day I am grateful to both of them for their friendship and wisdom. I don't want to think about where i would be today if I hadn't met them. Both of them have helped to live an examined life. But I digress.


Let's start with a working definition then some examples.

Cognitive Dissonance
Cognitive dissonance occurs when a person's beliefs conflicts with other previously held beliefs. It describes the feelings of discomfort resulting from having the two conflicting beliefs. In order to reduce or possibly eliminate the dissonance, something must change because of the discrepancy between the person's beliefs and behaviors.

It's a simple definition for such a prevalent condition.

Examples:

One that is very relevant today is the CD that involves politicians.

People will find a way to excuse the bad deeds the person they support and to magnify the bad deeds of the person they don't support. This also manifests in being unable to credit a politician you do not support for doing something you might actually agree with and ignoring the deeds of the politician you support when they do something you disagree with.

One that I experience a lot these days is People saying they love animals but who eat animals.

Example:

A man is mowing his lawn and purposely runs over a flock of baby ducks and macerates them with the mower blades. A man with his child witness the event and call the cops. The man on the mower gets charged with animal cruelty. The witness then takes his child out to breakfast and orders scrambled eggs for himself and his child. Now the egg industry doesn't want male chicks so right after male chicks are hatched they are fed into a macerating machine where they are ground up alive. But the man calmly eats his eggs without feeling the need to call the police.

and one more

The sour grapes phenomenon. This is actually addressed in one of Aesop's fables about a fox who cannot reach grapes that he wants. He experiences cognitive dissonance and to ease his frustration; he decides the grapes must be sour and therefore undesirable.

I think we all see people do this every day.

Are we as humans cursed to live with these thoughts and behaviors that clash? Does it bother people as much as it should? Do we just accept that humans are duplicitous?

If we don't want to live a life in contradiction to our beliefs what should we do?

But this is making the TRUTH something that you find but never live by.
YOur view makes the tortured bovine recluse the model of life

 

[Libby von H]

Let's add another layer to this.

I was listening to a lecture by Alan Watts and he brought up the question;

Would you be comfortable if all you thoughts were known to other people? If a person could see what you are thinking at any time without you knowing would you be OK with that?

I think the obvious answer you would get from just about everyone is an emphatic "Hell NO!"

But isn't this also a cognitive dissonance?

Humans are duplicitous by nature and we can often think things that are 100% diametrically opposed to what we do.

For example: Engaging in a polite conversation and being courteous while mentally calling the person you are engaging with an asshole or worse.

Can we as humans ever have our thoughts and actions be in 100% agreement? What kind of effort would that require?

NO, it isn't.
Your thoughts are not you, you are what you act on and why

The person you are talking to might be an asshole but you might be too. The Christian thought is, this is a child of God, what I think of him is irrelevant, it is how I act toward him

THinking that is opposed to what we do IS THE PATH FORWARD , you have that all screwed up