Cognitive Dissonance

[buttercup]

Genesis is a grand metaphor Butter

The beauty being one can interpret according to one's agenda

~S~

But you're not a Christian, right? If I remember correctly, you're an agnostic?

As for me and nearly all the Christians I know, the bible is not mere metaphor, it's actually true based on events that actually happened. But I understand that you and some others don't see it that way. And that's OK. That's a topic for a whole other time and place.

 

[sparky]

But you're not a Christian, right? If I remember correctly, you're an agnostic?

recovering Christain

 

[Carl in Michigan]

Genesis is a grand metaphor Butter

The beauty being one can interpret according to one's agenda

~S~

Jesus verified the accuracy of Genesis.

 

[sparky]

I know, the bible is not mere metaphor, it's actually true based on events that actually happened.

fundy bullsh*t

~S~

 

[sparky]

Jesus verified the accuracy of Genesis.

in your head , not the rest of us Carl

~S~

 

[Foxfyre]

What? Of course it has to do with not eating meat. God did not make us omnivorous.

Genesis 1:29-30 is clear.

And God said, “Behold, I have given you every plant yielding seed that is on the face of all the earth, and every tree with seed in its fruit. You shall have them for food. And to every beast of the earth and to every bird of the heavens and to everything that creeps on the earth, everything that has the breath of life, I have given every green plant for food.” And it was so.​

Even the most hard-core pro-meat people who are Christians agree that the Garden of Eden (a PARADISE) was not a place of killing and eating animals, it was plantbased!

Yes, God absolutely intended humanity to eat natural food from the earth, not His beloved animals! I'm surprised you're even arguing this.

But now it makes so much more sense why you hold the position you do.

I argue that because of the verses I posted contradicting that. The fact is we do not live in the Garden of Eden. If we believe the story, Adam and Eve screwed that up for us. So did God remove his love and concern from them after they were banished from the Garden? Of course not. It was that same generation that would raise and care for animals that would be used for meat. And you can find no Biblical passage that God frowned on that in any way.

I agree that all subsequent generations of humankind have screwed up God's perfect Creation so that we now have the mix of good and evil that exists in our own generation.

We can't pluck a few verses out of the Bible and hold them up as "proof" of God's will. It all has to be taken in its full context.

Again I respect your choice to be vegan. I don't judge or criticize your choice in any way.

But I know in my heart and via science , nutrition, human health and vitality, that I am also okay being omnivorous and I am in no way inflicting or endorsing cruelty of any kind. I ask my friends to respect that.

We are not allowed to return to the Garden. We have to live our lives the best and most nobly we can with the cards we are dealt here and now.

 

[buttercup]

I argue that because of the verses I posted contradicting that. The fact is we do not live in the Garden of Eden. If we believe the story, Adam and Eve screwed that up for us. So did God remove his love and concern from them after they were banished from the Garden? Of course not. It was that same generation that would raise and care for animals that would be used for meat. And you can find no Biblical passage that God frowned on that in any way.

I agree that all subsequent generations of humankind have screwed up God's perfect Creation so that we now have the mix of good and evil that exists in our own generation.

We can't pluck a few verses out of the Bible and hold them up as "proof" of God's will. It all has to be taken in its full context.

Again I respect your choice to be vegan. I don't judge or criticize your choice in any way.

But I know in my heart and via science , nutrition, human health and vitality, that I am also okay being omnivorous and I am in no way inflicting or endorsing cruelty of any kind. I ask my friends to respect that.

God allows many things to occur in this fallen world that are not His perfect will.

There are a number of different interpretations of the Genesis 9 verse you brought up.

But the main point I've been trying to make is that ALL the verses you keep pointing to pertain to this fallen world.

His perfect will is what is stated in the beginning, and in the end.....AND, in between that there are tons and tons and tons of verses that tell us how God wants us to live. To be merciful, to do all things in love, to be gentle and a peacemaker, as opposed to needlessly violent, to treat others the way we would want to be treated, to be kind and compassionate... I could go on and on.

So God's perfect will IS clear. And His will is NOT needless violence, exploitation, and nonstop killing of animals that HE loves, that are really no different than your dog or cat.

I really don't see how any of that can be argued. But I do understand where you're coming from. I didn't always think the way I do know, and even when my mind DID change, it was still a process after that, as I continued to realize more and more that the way the world is now is SO far off from the way God wants it to be, it is an absolute disaster.

 

[sparky]

We can't pluck a few verses out of the Bible and hold them up as "proof" of God's will.

done all the time FF

We are not allowed to return to the Garden.

nope

I really don't see how any of that can be argued.

apparently not

~S~

 

[buttercup]

The fact is we do not live in the Garden of Eden.

Just wanted to come back to ^ this particular statement.

Yes, we're no longer in the Garden of Eden, but Jesus made it abundantly clear that as His followers we should want God's will to be done on earth as it is in heaven. (Matthew 6:10)

So that means WE (believers) should be Kingdom people.... in other words, we should be showing the rest of the world the way God wants us all to live. His Kingdom IS coming (and I think it's going to be sooner than people think) and there are teachings in the bible that make it clear God wants us to be prepared for that. Not doing things everyone else is doing and being unprepared.

We just did a live talk on this topic a few days ago. It's an hour long, but if you get a chance, I hope you listen to it:

 

[Foxfyre]

We've 3 cats on the farm now

All are hunters.....

Of interest is those that ive served meat never frozen

yes, it's that fresh

They all think it tastes different

Because they all were raised on industrial fare

~S~

Yes, the chicken that is quickly dispatched, plucked, cleaned, and goes right into the fryer is amazing. There is no better food in the world than the rainbow or brook trout pulled from the stream, immediately cleaned, and into the frying pan. But alas, if you don't live on the farm or have access to a fishing stream, we will of necessity

God allows many things to occur in this fallen world that are not His perfect will.

There are a number of different interpretations of the Genesis 9 verse you brought up.

But the main point I've been trying to make is that ALL the verses you keep pointing to pertain to this fallen world.

His perfect will is what is stated in the beginning, and in the end.....AND, in between that there are tons and tons and tons of verses that tell us how God wants us to live. To be merciful, to do all things in love, to be gentle and a peacemaker, as opposed to needlessly violent, to treat others the way we would want to be treated, to be kind and compassionate... I could go on and on.

So God's perfect will IS clear. And His will is NOT needless violence, exploitation, and nonstop killing of animals that HE loves, that are really no different than your dog or cat.

I really don't see how any of that can be argued. But I do understand where you're coming from. I didn't always think the way I do know, and even when my mind DID change, it was still a process after that, as I continued to realize more and more that the way the world is now is SO far off from the way God wants it to be, it is an absolute disaster.

We live in a fallen world Buttercup. All the people of the Bible lived in a fallen world. And God did not discourage any of them from eating animal protein.

Now again I respect both your lifestyle choice and your faith and won't tell you that you must believe as I do or anybody else does. But I don't believe any of us are in a position to say definitively what God's will is for any other human. I do know that He created us humans to thrive as omnivores, at least all humans since Adam and Eve regardless of what lifestyle any given person chooses for himself or herself. And since I have never been convicted that being an omnivore is in itself sinful, I will trust that.

Please respect that.

 

[Foxfyre]

done all the time FF

nope

apparently not

~S~

True. We can and do pluck verses out of the Bible to use as 'proof' of whatever we're arguing. I stand corrected.

So I'll amend my statement to be we cannot be intellectually honest and pluck this or that verse out of the Bible to use as 'proof' while ignoring all the verses that contradict it.

 

[buttercup]

apparently not

~S~

Don't misunderstand. Of course I can see how it can be argued from your perspective, as a nonbeliever.

I was saying that from a biblical perspective, I don't see how those things I brought up in my previous post can be argued.

If any of those things I said was false, then someone can refute it. But again, I wasn't speaking in general, but from a biblical perspective.

 

[Foxfyre]

Just wanted to come back to ^ this particular statement.

Yes, we're no longer in the Garden of Eden, but Jesus made it abundantly clear that as His followers we should want God's will to be done on earth as it is in heaven. (Matthew 6:10)

So that means WE (believers) should be Kingdom people.... in other words, we should be showing the rest of the world the way God wants us all to live. His Kingdom IS coming (and I think it's going to be sooner than people think) and there are teachings in the bible that make it clear God wants us to be prepared for that. Not doing things everyone else is doing and being unprepared.

We just did a live talk on this topic a few days ago. It's an hour long, but if you get a chance, I hope you listen to it:

You have to presume to know what God's will is though Buttercup to say what another must believe. Praying for God's will and dictating what it has to look like are two entirely different things. I won't presume to be of the pay grade to know what God's will is for you or even me. But I do pray to fit into His will.

God created humankind to thrive as omnivores. The fact that some do not have to be or choose to be omnivorous to thrive does not change the fact that human beings for all recorded history have been omnivorous. I think at some point, if that was sin, God would have told us.

 

[buttercup]

We live in a fallen world Buttercup. All the people of the Bible lived in a fallen world. And God did not discourage any of them from eating animal protein.

That doesn't mean we have to go along with everything that people do in this fallen world.

Again:

"Your will be done, on earth as it is in heaven."

We are supposed to have an eternal perspective, not a temporal one.

 

[sparky]

I stand corrected.

not my aim to dis you FF

recovering Christians like myself get our hair up easily by all the manipulators, predators , opportunists

it's a wonder sorts like myself still maintain our faith in spite of them all

~S~

 

[sparky]

I wasn't speaking in general, but from a biblical perspective.

You're personal biblical perspective is duly noted Butter

~S~

 

[Foxfyre]

That doesn't mean we have to go along with everything that people do in this fallen world.

Again:

"Your will be done, on earth as it is in heaven."

We are supposed to have an eternal perspective, not a termporal one.

Again, if God did not intend human beings to be omnivorous I think that would be made quite clear in the Scriptures. I find nothing in the Scriptures to prevent people from foregoing meat, but as a requirement for virtue, it just isn't there.

 

[Foxfyre]

not my aim to dis you FF

recovering Christians like myself get our hair up easily by all the manipulators, predators , opportunists

it's a wonder sorts like myself still maintain our faith in spite of them all

~S~

I didn't take it as dissing at all Sparky. But as brilliant and gorgeous and wonderful as I am (cough), I can say something that on reflection just isn't so. And you caught me in that. And I appreciate it so I can clarify.

 

[buttercup]

You have to presume to know what God's will is though Buttercup to say what another must believe. Praying for God's will and dictating what it has to look like are two entirely different things.

God created humankind to thrive as omnivores. The fact that some do not have to be omnivorous to thrive does not change the fact that human beings for all recorded history have been omnivorous. I think at some point, if that was sin, God would have told us.

I'm not dictating it. People have free will, and we all can make choices. I have never once said this is a salvific issue.

The main thing I've been saying in the last few posts that it is not God's perfect will. You can agree or disagree with that, and I'm not going to belabor the point.

That said, even though we are free to make choices, all actions have consequences. There are numerous negative consequences to the bloodbath this world has been, but I've been on this thread too long, so I really gotta sign off here soon.

 

[buttercup]

Again, if God did not intend human beings to be omnivorous I think that would be made quite clear in the Scriptures.

Genesis 1:29-30 IS clear.