Zone1 Christian Zionism

[22lcidw]

Still just a man. I feel his good/bad ratio is skewed more towards the bad than the average person.


So the distinction is purely academic and has no useful value?


I mostly agree. I usually say we judge our enemies by their worst actions and judge our friends by their best.


I see good and bad as a continuum of MY values and everyone sits somewhere on that continuum.


Trump, like all of us, is somewhere on MY continuum, he is just closer to the bad side than most others.

Humans have not evolved. They are more civil then in the past in areas of the planet. And there are forces affecting that for different reasons than in the past. Powerful people remain the same. The same powerful people are creating conditions in the Western World that exists in most others. We have two major political parties in the Unted States as an example. One is pro-Israel, and the other is trending pro Islam. This is going to tear us apart and is designed to weaken us along with other agendas.

 

[ding]

More semantics?

How exactly was it semantics?

The definition of reason is a cause, explanation, or justification for an action or event. The definition of purpose is the reason for which something is done or created or for which something exists. The consequence of a logical universe is that every cause has an effect. Which means that everything happens for a reason and serves a purpose. The very nature of our physical laws point to reason and purpose.

There's nothing semantic about this ^^^^

The definition of reason and purpose is not semantics. The observation of cause and effect is not semantics. That everything happens for a reason and serves a purpose is not semantics. It is reality as defined by the definitions of reason and purpose and the universe evolving due to natural processes which are logical.

To me reason and purpose imply an underlying intelligence providing goals and direction. All I see are natural forces at work, not intelligence.

So you are making a false allegation of semantics because to you the universe being logical and following cause and effect implies an underlying intelligence and you aren't good with that? Why?

 

[ding]

To me reason and purpose imply an underlying intelligence providing goals and direction. All I see are natural forces at work, not intelligence.

The direction of the evolution of the universe is towards increasing complexity. It's undeniable. Those natural forces predestined beings that know and create.

 

[ding]

The definition of purpose is the reason for which something is done or created or for which something exists. The sun provides us light but that is not why it exists.

You are changing questions. You asked what was the purpose of the sun. Now you are changing it to why does the sun exist. Those are two different questions.

The role the sun plays is it's purpose. The purpose of the sun is to provide heat, light, other forms of radiation, gravity fields and create elements beyond hydrogen and helium.

Why the sun exists is because hydrogen and helium naturally and logically complexified into structures like stars and galaxies. It is entirely predictable according to the laws of nature.

 

[ding]

Still just a man. I feel his good/bad ratio is skewed more towards the bad than the average person.

I hope it's OK with you that I don't believe you. I suspect it's a lot worse than that.

So the distinction is purely academic and has no useful value?

Incorrect. The value of judging actions and behaviors instead of judging the person is extremely valuable. I even explained it to you. Judging the person will cloud or bias objectivity when it comes to judging behaviors and actions. We are unfairly critical of people we don't like and unfairly fair to people we do like. Bias of the person clouds judgement. You can't see reality if you are biased. That's the value. Unless of course seeing reality has no value to you.

I mostly agree. I usually say we judge our enemies by their worst actions and judge our friends by their best.

Exactly. It's human nature. But it can be overcome. It's just really hard to do. But the rewards for doing so are immense.

I see good and bad as a continuum of MY values and everyone sits somewhere on that continuum.

Then in the future you might want to amend your statement that "men are not good and men are not evil, they are just men." Because if everyone sits somewhere on YOUR continuum of good and bad, it's not an accurate statement.

Trump, like all of us, is somewhere on MY continuum, he is just closer to the bad side than most others.

Given what I have read from your posts (although I think you are sugar coating it), I'd say that was a somewhat of an accurate statement and that you are more judgmental than you will likely admit.

 

[ding]

True but they don't require a monotheistic creator. (Funny you should mention monotheistic belief since I recently got an insight into why Christianity is monotheistic. If you are interested we should take it to our endless Bull Ring thread)

Yes, it probably is a good time to revisit that discussion.

 

[alang1216]

So you are making a false allegation of semantics because to you the universe being logical and following cause and effect implies an underlying intelligence and you aren't good with that? Why?

If we both agree that purpose, reason, cause and effect are all natural actions and no intelligence is behind them, we do not disagree.

 

[alang1216]

The direction of the evolution of the universe is towards increasing complexity. It's undeniable. Those natural forces predestined beings that know and create.

I deny it.

 

[ding]

If we both agree that purpose, reason, cause and effect are all natural actions and no intelligence is behind them, we do not disagree.

According to your own words you do believe reason and purpose imply an underlying intelligence providing goals and direction.

So why can't you believe intelligence isn't behind it?

 

[ding]

I deny it.

That's because you deny reality because reality makes you uncomfortable with your beliefs. You deny there is intelligence behind the creation and evolution of the universe despite saying you do believe reason and purpose imply an underlying intelligence providing goals and direction. So it's not a surprise that you deny the direction of the evolution of the universe is towards increasing complexity and natural forces predestining beings that know and create despite the universe doing exactly that.

And yet here we are in a universe that has evolved to create beings that know and create through natural forces which scream of reason and purpose.

 

[alang1216]

You are changing questions. You asked what was the purpose of the sun. Now you are changing it to why does the sun exist. Those are two different questions.

The role the sun plays is it's purpose. The purpose of the sun is to provide heat, light, other forms of radiation, gravity fields and create elements beyond hydrogen and helium.

Why the sun exists is because hydrogen and helium naturally and logically complexified into structures like stars and galaxies. It is entirely predictable according to the laws of nature.

I believe role and purpose are not the same.

 

[alang1216]

Given what I have read from your posts (although I think you are sugar coating it), I'd say that was a somewhat of an accurate statement and that you are more judgmental than you will likely admit.

I'm as judgmental as anyone else, I just know I judge by MY values and recognize not everyone shares them. I judge Trump to be a deeply flawed man but admit that others think way more highly of him than I do.

 

[alang1216]

According to your own words you do believe reason and purpose imply an underlying intelligence providing goals and direction.

So why can't you believe intelligence isn't behind it?

Semantics. I do believe intelligence isn't behind our universe.

 

[alang1216]

That's because you deny reality because reality makes you uncomfortable with your beliefs. You deny there is intelligence behind the creation and evolution of the universe despite saying you do believe reason and purpose imply an underlying intelligence providing goals and direction. So it's not a surprise that you deny the direction of the evolution of the universe is towards increasing complexity and natural forces predestining beings that know and create despite the universe doing exactly that.

I'm very comfortable with denying there is intelligence behind the creation and evolution of the universe. I see no purpose in it. It just is.

And yet here we are in a universe that has evolved to create beings that know and create through natural forces which scream of reason and purpose.

I hear no screams.

 

[ding]

I believe role and purpose are not the same.

They aren't exactly but they are related. Purpose can be inferred by what one or something does. So if someone asked what is the purpose of the sun, you would list all of the things that the sun does. Just like if someone asked why the sun was created you would list all of the processes that led to it's creation.

Your problem is that you don't believe anything has a purpose but the natural world around you disagrees. If it were as you say it is then randomness would exist everywhere. But there is nothing truly random in a logical universe where every effect had a cause and a reason for occurring. I think you confuse chaos for randomness. And to really blow your mind, even chaos has a purpose or role Chaos helps bring about order.

So the real question is why can't you believe intelligence is behind it?

 

[ding]

Semantics. I do believe intelligence isn't behind our universe.

Poor choice of words on my part.

Why can't you believe intelligence is behind our universe?

 

[ding]

I'm as judgmental as anyone else, I just know I judge by MY values and recognize not everyone shares them. I judge Trump to be a deeply flawed man but admit that others think way more highly of him than I do.

Saying you are as judgmental as anyone else isn't something to brag about. That's a pretty low bar.

You say you recognize not everyone shares your values, but I say you post like you expect they should which makes your statement sound open minded when you're not. Maybe you should say you judge by your values, you recognize others have different values but you don't give a shit.

 

[ding]

I'm very comfortable with denying there is intelligence behind the creation and evolution of the universe. I see no purpose in it. It just is.

And that is based upon what?

 

[ding]

I hear no screams.

I wouldn't expect you would. You don't even realize that you are a spiritual being experiencing a material existence. Even though the most important moments in your life and your reason for existing are spiritual in nature.

 

[alang1216]

They aren't exactly but they are related. Purpose can be inferred by what one or something does. So if someone asked what is the purpose of the sun, you would list all of the things that the sun does. Just like if someone asked why the sun was created you would list all of the processes that led to it's creation.

Your problem is that you don't believe anything has a purpose but the natural world around you disagrees. If it were as you say it is then randomness would exist everywhere. But there is nothing truly random in a logical universe where every effect had a cause and a reason for occurring. I think you confuse chaos for randomness. And to really blow your mind, even chaos has a purpose or role Chaos helps bring about order.

So the real question is why can't you believe intelligence is behind it?

Poor choice of words on my part.

Why can't you believe intelligence is behind our universe?

I see zero evidence of an intelligence. Nothing I know of requires an intelligence as a prerequisite.