Zone1 Christendom's Trinity - Where Did It Come From?

[Alter2Ego]

QUESTIONS FOR DISCUSSION:

1. If the teaching of a Trinity god is essential to Christianity, how is it that the doctrine is nowhere to be found in scriptures within Jehovah's inspired word, the Judeo-Christian Bible?

You have here two serios problems. The minor problem: the word "Jehova" not really exists in the bible. It is a combination with the name of god - which I speak not out in respect for the Jewish religion as Pope Benedict XVI suggested to do - and the word "adonai" (="Lord"). The word "Jehova" for g'd is in best case a very bad translation. You could read "Lord" and think about g'd. But the word 'Jehova' never existed really.

zaangalewa:

I can see that you have an issue with the use of the Divine name "Jehovah." But what has that to do with Question #1, where I specifically asked why the trinity doctrine is nowhere to be found in the scriptures?

ANSWER: Absolutely nothing!


Alter2Ego

 

[Alter2Ego]

QUESTIONS FOR DISCUSSION:

2. If Jesus Christ is part of a trinity in which he has the same power (co-equal) and the same eternity (co-eternal) as Jehovah the Father, how is it that the scriptures repeatedly inform us that Jesus Christ is subservient to Almighty God Jehovah (indicating inequality) and why is it that scripture tells us over and over again that Jesus Christ is "begotten" (indicating he had a beginning)?

Study the Athanasian creed.

zaangalewa:

Therein lies your problem and the problem of many Trinitarians within Christendom: You are relying on man-made creeds that are nowhere to be found in Jehovah's inspired word, the Judeo-Christian Bible.

The last book of the Bible was completed in the 1st Century CE. The Athanasian creed was written between the 3rd and 5th centuries CE or some 300 to 500 years AFTER the last book of the Bible was written under inspiration of Almighty God. Below is what Encyclopedia Britannica says about the Athanasian Creed.


"A Latin document composed in the Western Church, the creed was unknown to the Eastern Church until the 12th century. Since the 17th century, scholars have generally agreed that the Athanasian Creed was not written by Athanasius (died 373) but was probably composed in southern France during the 5th century. Many authors have been suggested, but no definite conclusions have been reached."

Athanasian Creed | Trinity, Incarnation & Salvation | Britannica

Athanasian Creed, a Christian profession of faith in about 40 verses. It is regarded as authoritative in the Roman Catholic and some Protestant churches. It has two sections, one dealing with the Trinity and the other with the Incarnation; and it begins and ends with stern warnings that unswerving

www.britannica.com

You expect me to waste my precious time studying something like that?


Alter2Ego

 

[Alter2Ego]

Meriweather:

Scripture repeatedly refers to Jesus as "son of man," while he was on earth. At no time, while on earth in human form, was he "divine." Of course, if you don't agree with that, be sure and present scripture that confirms Jesus was "fully divine and fully human" during his 33 years on planet earth.

Alter2Ego

Description: Son of man. (human nature)
Name: I AM. (divine nature)

Both in scripture.

Meriweather:

The words "I AM" does not indicate divinity.


Alter2Ego

 

[onefour1]

In the Holy Bible we learn the following:

1 John 5:7
7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

From this we understand that in heaven are the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost. We also learn that they are one. But what does it mean that they are one? Does it mean that they are the same being and substance? NO! It means that they are one in truth and purpose. When we read John 17 we understand that all who follow the God the Father and Jesus Christ can also become one even as Jesus is one with the Father:

John 17:20-23
20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

Here we learn that those who believe can become one even as Jesus is one with the Father. The oneness isn't that they are the same being or have the same substance, etc. It is that they become like God and take on his love and learn to love others and that they repent of sin and take on righteousness just as Jesus and the Father are righteous. To become one with the Father and Jesus is to become like them in all goodness and righteousness. It is not that we become the very same being. The Father, Son, and the Holy Ghost are three very separate and distinct beings who have come together in all holiness and righteousness to form a godhead. The godhead represents the one true God. Each member of the godhead can represent the godhead as a whole since they are one in truth and purpose in all that they do. The Father and the Son both are resurrected, immortal mankind with bodies of flesh and bones. The Holy Ghost is a spirit who has not yet received a body but as a spirit is able to abide within us and touch us in ways only a spirit can do. Eventually even the Holy Ghost will gain a body and become immortal even as the Father and Jesus have. It is a false notion and out growth of apostacy that the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are the same being. They are separate and distinct beings and each serve a separate and distinct purpose of being members of the Godhead. The Father already had an immortal body before the creation of this world. He could not lay down his life as an immortal being. He is the father of all our spirits Jesus existed as a spirit before coming to the earth to receive a body. He came to this earth to show us the way to live. He also lived a perfect life and was crucified and died for all the sins of mankind. After his death he was resurrected and brought resurrect to all mankind. He now, like the Father has an immortal body of flesh and bones and can never die. The Holy Ghost is a personage of spirit. The purpose of his remaining a spirit for the majority of this life is so that he can touch our spirits in ways that only a spirit can touch us. Eventually it is the will of God that the Holy Ghost too receive an immortal body of flesh and bones at some time. All mankind will resurrect and we all will live eternally in immortal bodies of flesh and bones thanks to the great plan of salvation of our God.

 

[zaangalewa]

The Nicene Creed (from the Council of Nicaea, A.D. 325) insists that Christians accept the Trinity, else you are not a Christian. That's pretty important.

If I will tell you "gras is green" - will you believe it when you will see only blue gras everywhere or will you say "gras is blue"? If I will tell you "gras is green" - otherwise you will be banned - will this change anything except that you will say "gras is green" if you don't like to be banned when you see blue gras?

 

[zaangalewa]

zaangalewa:

I suggest that you go back and read my opening post again. No where in it did I state that the trinity doctrine belongs to "the one and only true church." I specifically said it's the most important doctrine in most of Christendom's 41,000 denominations.

Totally unimportant for me: one god - one truth - one church.

 

[luiza]

I never did understand the concept of a Holy Ghost. What is that anyway?

Porky Morty aka Morticia .
Sometimes when Porky is ill orm otherwise indisposed Dad asks IQ-2.0 to step in as a token gesture and to remind us of the many steps down there are in the kingdom of Hell .

 

[luiza]

In the Holy Bible we learn the following:

1 John 5:7
For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

Now we know where mad John got his story about the three bears from .

Guess one was Black , another Brown and maybe the other was White .
Just like real life where the White is the best looking and strongest .

As with the Monkees , I am reborn .

"Now I am a Believer "

 

[zaangalewa]

zaangalewa:

I can see that you have an issue with the use of the Divine name "Jehovah."

It is no divine name. It is a mistake - that's all. And I ask me sometimes why people who make such mistakes like to tell all others what's the only one real denomination under ¿41000? denominations while idiots like I and many others just simple say: one god - one truth - one church.

But what has that to do with Question #1, where I specifically asked why the trinity doctrine is nowhere to be found in the scriptures?

You did not read what I said. You could find it when you would read the words of Jesus the Christ. You do not read it. The reason why you do so is because you are not interested in god's truth - you are only interested in your own truth "Jehova". But this truth is not true. You make mistakes.

ANSWER: Absolutely nothing!


Alter2Ego

You think analytic in the bad sense of this word because you try to make afterwards your analytic views universal while you ignore what you do not like to know. So as long as you take a look at a detail and ignore the rest you are theoretically always right. But when you really try to think universal then you will very fast find out that you are much too little to do so. Nevertheless the universe is universal. But even the universe in its gigantic size and power is limited. What we try to speak about when we speak about god is not only universal but even meta-universal - is unlimited. And more worse: He made everything out of a real nothing or a something what we cannot say anything about than nothing (up to now).

With other words: We Catholics have a problem. A big problem. Indeed we have an "Allahu akbar"-problem a "god is greater"-problem. But we do not prefer to make god so little that he has place in the last three working braincells of a stupid murderer. Believe it or not: We still baptize our children and god's children in "The name of the father, the son and the holy spirit" how Jesus personally told us to do. And the Holy Spirit might take care that no one will become a murderer.

 

[zaangalewa]

luiza

What "hurts" your atheistic Russian or US-Russian soul now?

 

[zaangalewa]

luiza

A question is not able to be "fake news". By the way - did you reach meanwhile the 1001st "fake news" comment of my posts?

 

[luiza]

luiza

What "hurts" your atheistic Russian or US-Russian soul now?

The fact that you are not bright enough to be a useful Troll Bot, but so simple that you have been entrained to the garbage that you have had pumped into you .

I can see that your intentions are well meant and that you have acquired Faith by resorting to Cognitive Rigidity .

BUT it is sad to see people like yourself lose at least one incarnation before you can start to move up the cosmic ladder .

 

[zaangalewa]

The fact

now comes nonsense, I guess

that you are not bright enough to be a useful Troll Bot, but so simple that you have been entrained to the garbage that you have had pumped into you .

I can see that your intentions are well meant

Eh?

and that you have acquired Faith by resorting to Cognitive Rigidity .

Eh?

BUT it is sad to see people like yourself lose at least one incarnation before you can start to move up the cosmic ladder .

It was nonsense.

 

[zaangalewa]

Meriweather:

The words "I AM" does not indicate divinity.


Alter2Ego

The problem is to speak out the full meaning when people are around who hate god and his children. Many people believe if you give someone the real name of a thing then you give him also the power to use and to misuse this thing. But what god said here is not really a name. It refers to be pure being rooted in pure being which ever will be pure being in the own way of being [which is also a not being and perhaps also what no one was/is/will be able to know]. God was not only always what he ever had been (and not been) he will also be forever what he is (and not is) and he will this be what he will be (and not will be). For us ... or perhaps better to say "for me, currently" - means this: God was always true and will also always be true. But god was also always new and will be always new.



Translation of the German text under this video:

Jerusalem can be full of surprises from the Lord. When we asked the Syrians if we could make video recordings in their church, we wanted pictures for an Indian chant. But the eager deacon wanted us to sing the Lord's Prayer with them (the language our Lord spoke here on earth and which is still used by Syrian Christians in parts of their liturgy). According to Syrian tradition, the ‘House of St Mark’, where this chapel is located, is said to be the place where the Last Supper and the descent of the Holy Spirit upon the apostles took place. We dedicate this sacred hymn to our beloved heavenly Father with the prayer that all people may recognise, venerate and love him! In a special way we would like to include all persecuted Christians in the Middle East in our prayers.

-----

PS: The explanation would be more complex if I would not only think about the existence and not-existence of god here in his created space and time but also about the meta-existence which created this all. But this I let be. I will ask him one day personally. In worst case: Hopefully exists a phone line from hell to heaven.

 

[Alter2Ego]

1 John 5:7
7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

From this we understand that in heaven are the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost. We also learn that they are one. But what does it mean that they are one? Does it mean that they are the same being and substance? NO! It means that they are one in truth and purpose. When we read John 17 we understand that all who follow the God the Father and Jesus Christ can also become one even as Jesus is one with the Father:

onefour1:

Well said. The word "one" when used at 1 John 5:7 indicates unity of purpose based upon the context. The same word "one" was used elsewhere in the book of John when Jesus, in prayer to his heavenly father, Jehovah, asked that ALL his disciples should also be "one."


Alter2Ego

 

[ninja007]

task0778:

The Holy Ghost aka Holy Spirit is Jehovah God's power or active force that he uses to get things done. In other words, the Holy Ghost/Holy Spirit is a possession of Almighty God. It is something, not someone.

somethings DONT HAVE WILLS.

 

[Woodznutz]

The definitive evidence that the Holy Spirit is not a person is the absence of its mention in the greeting to the churches in the letters of Paul and Peter.

 

[ninja007]

The definitive evidence that the Holy Spirit is not a person is the absence of its mention in the greeting to the churches in the letters of Paul and Peter.

Find Out​

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Home Content Index Holy Spirit The Identity of the Holy Spirit Holy Spirit person

Question

Is the Holy Spirit a person?​

Answer

Many people find the doctrine of the Holy Spirit confusing. Is the Holy Spirit a force, a person, or something else? What does the Bible teach?

The Bible provides many ways to help us understand that the Holy Spirit is truly a person—that is, He is a personal being, rather than an impersonal thing. First, in almost every instance, pronouns used in reference to the Spirit are he and him, not it. In this way, the original Greek of the New Testament is explicit in confirming the person of the Holy Spirit. The word for “Spirit” (pneuma) is grammatically neuter and would naturally take neuter pronouns to have grammatical agreement. Yet, in many cases, masculine pronouns are found (e.g., John 15:26; 16:13–14). There is no other way to understand these ”ungrammatical” pronouns related to the Holy Spirit—He is a personal being, a “He.”

Matthew 28:19 teaches us to baptize in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. This is a collective reference to one Triune God. Also, we are not to grieve the Holy Spirit (Ephesians 4:30). The Spirit can be sinned against (Isaiah 63:10) and lied to (Acts 5:3). We are to obey Him (Acts 10:19–21) and honor Him (Psalm 51:11).

The personhood of the Holy Spirit is also affirmed by His many works. He was personally involved in creation (Genesis 1:2), empowers God’s people (Zechariah 4:6), guides (Romans 8:14), comforts (John 14:26), convicts (John 16:8), teaches (John 16:13), restrains sin (Isaiah 59:19), and gives commands (Acts 8:29). Each of these works requires the involvement of a person rather than a mere force, thing, or idea.

The Holy Spirit’s attributes also point to His personality. The Holy Spirit has life (Romans 8:2), has a will (1 Corinthians 12:11), is omniscient (1 Corinthians 2:10–11), is eternal (Hebrews 9:14), and is omnipresent (Psalm 139:7). A mere force could not possess all of these attributes, but the Holy Spirit does.

And the personhood of the Holy Spirit is affirmed by His role as the third Person of the Godhead. Only a being who is equal to God (Matthew 28:19) and possesses the attributes of omniscience, omnipresence, and eternality could be defined as God.

In Acts 5:3–4, Peter referred to the Holy Spirit as God, stating, “Ananias, how is it that Satan has so filled your heart that you have lied to the Holy Spirit and have kept for yourself some of the money you received for the land? Didn’t it belong to you before it was sold? And after it was sold, wasn’t the money at your disposal? What made you think of doing such a thing? You have not lied just to human beings but to God.” Paul likewise referred to the Holy Spirit as God in 2 Corinthians 3:17–18, stating, “Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom. And we all, who with unveiled faces contemplate the Lord’s glory, are being transformed into his image with ever-increasing glory, which comes from the Lord, who is the Spirit.”

The Holy Spirit is a person, as Scripture makes clear. As such, He is to be revered as God and serves in perfect unity with Father and Son to lead us in our spiritual lives.

For Further Study​

The Power of the Holy Spirit’s Names by Tony EvansMore insights from your Bible study - Get Started with Logos Bible Software for Free!

Related Articles​

Who is the Holy Spirit?Is God a person?What was the Pneumatomachian heresy / Macedonianism?Is the Holy Spirit God?Where is the Holy Spirit?
Return to:

Questions about the Holy Spirit

 

[Woodznutz]

Find Out​

How to go to heaven​

How to get right with God​

Donate

Home Content Index Holy Spirit The Identity of the Holy Spirit Holy Spirit person

Question

Is the Holy Spirit a person?​

Answer

Many people find the doctrine of the Holy Spirit confusing. Is the Holy Spirit a force, a person, or something else? What does the Bible teach?

The Bible provides many ways to help us understand that the Holy Spirit is truly a person—that is, He is a personal being, rather than an impersonal thing. First, in almost every instance, pronouns used in reference to the Spirit are he and him, not it. In this way, the original Greek of the New Testament is explicit in confirming the person of the Holy Spirit. The word for “Spirit” (pneuma) is grammatically neuter and would naturally take neuter pronouns to have grammatical agreement. Yet, in many cases, masculine pronouns are found (e.g., John 15:26; 16:13–14). There is no other way to understand these ”ungrammatical” pronouns related to the Holy Spirit—He is a personal being, a “He.”

Matthew 28:19 teaches us to baptize in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. This is a collective reference to one Triune God. Also, we are not to grieve the Holy Spirit (Ephesians 4:30). The Spirit can be sinned against (Isaiah 63:10) and lied to (Acts 5:3). We are to obey Him (Acts 10:19–21) and honor Him (Psalm 51:11).

The personhood of the Holy Spirit is also affirmed by His many works. He was personally involved in creation (Genesis 1:2), empowers God’s people (Zechariah 4:6), guides (Romans 8:14), comforts (John 14:26), convicts (John 16:8), teaches (John 16:13), restrains sin (Isaiah 59:19), and gives commands (Acts 8:29). Each of these works requires the involvement of a person rather than a mere force, thing, or idea.

The Holy Spirit’s attributes also point to His personality. The Holy Spirit has life (Romans 8:2), has a will (1 Corinthians 12:11), is omniscient (1 Corinthians 2:10–11), is eternal (Hebrews 9:14), and is omnipresent (Psalm 139:7). A mere force could not possess all of these attributes, but the Holy Spirit does.

And the personhood of the Holy Spirit is affirmed by His role as the third Person of the Godhead. Only a being who is equal to God (Matthew 28:19) and possesses the attributes of omniscience, omnipresence, and eternality could be defined as God.

In Acts 5:3–4, Peter referred to the Holy Spirit as God, stating, “Ananias, how is it that Satan has so filled your heart that you have lied to the Holy Spirit and have kept for yourself some of the money you received for the land? Didn’t it belong to you before it was sold? And after it was sold, wasn’t the money at your disposal? What made you think of doing such a thing? You have not lied just to human beings but to God.” Paul likewise referred to the Holy Spirit as God in 2 Corinthians 3:17–18, stating, “Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom. And we all, who with unveiled faces contemplate the Lord’s glory, are being transformed into his image with ever-increasing glory, which comes from the Lord, who is the Spirit.”

The Holy Spirit is a person, as Scripture makes clear. As such, He is to be revered as God and serves in perfect unity with Father and Son to lead us in our spiritual lives.

For Further Study​

The Power of the Holy Spirit’s Names by Tony EvansMore insights from your Bible study - Get Started with Logos Bible Software for Free!

Related Articles​

Who is the Holy Spirit?Is God a person?What was the Pneumatomachian heresy / Macedonianism?Is the Holy Spirit God?Where is the Holy Spirit?
Return to:

Questions about the Holy Spirit

In the OT spirit is a feminine noun but is never 'personified' or referred to as "she".

The term "Holy Spirit" only occurs 3 or 4 times in the OT and "Holy" is a masculine noun.

"Spirit" in Greek is neuter and there is no justification for assigning a masculine pronoun to it. If there was it would follow the Hebrew and assign the feminine pronoun.

It is my sincere belief that the RCC will reconcile this by revealing that Mary is actually the third person in the Godhead and the Holy Spirit is just a placeholder for her. This will bring unbridled joy to Catholics everywhere, and even to some Protestants.

 

[jwoodie]

The Holy Trinity was a way of glossing over the inherent contradiction of Jesus being human and God at the same time. Son of Man refers to the fulfillment of Messianic prophesy. Son of God refers to the divine authority of his teaching. Neither connotes that Jesus was the same as God.