Changing minds is more complicated than simply exposing poor arguments

[evenflow1969]

Question Time showed that you canât counter anti-vax myths with cold reason alone | Sonia Sodha

Changing minds is more complicated than simply exposing poor arguments

www.theguardian.com

The main British political discussion show invited in an audience of anti vaxxers to discuss their idiocy with a panel of experts. to limited success.

How do you react when someone politely but firmly tells you that you’re talking nonsense about something that’s important to you? Do you gracefully and immediately give way to their greater expertise? Or do you double down?

Most of us are in the latter camp. Voicing our beliefs tends to solidify them. We may like to think of ourselves as rational creatures, constantly assessing the world for new information that might change our minds, but this is not how our brains work. Explaining to someone that their belief is flat-out wrong is not a good way of getting them to drop it. And research shows that the process of “myth-busting” – setting out a common false statement, then explaining why it is wrong – backfires because it counterintuitively reinforces and helps spread the myths.

But it is impossible to counter emotion with facts and the exercise ,whils exposing the idiocy of the anti vaxxers, will probably not have convinced many. We could have told them cahead of the show. Five years of exposing trumps villiany has not dented his cults belief in him.

And focussing on the ridiculous "stop the steal" nonsense underlines this. Despite zero evidence there are still folk who think that the election was stolen. When it gets to the point that people do not need any evidence i n order to believe something touted by a proven liar then facts and science are not going to penetrate.

It leaves society pretty much at the mercy of uninformed people who think that a half hour rummaging aarund the net makes then PHDs in any subject under the sun.

These people breed, they vote and they bring up chilfren. We should be scared.

Lol, don't be afraid. It's not like you have to deal with most these idiots in real life. On the block when I hear insane shit I just nod and smile continue to be polite all the while figuring out how to avoid the idiot in the future.

 

[Grumblenuts]

people are easier to control with dodgy data.

The wife has been hooked on your British baking show for years. Now I use "stodgy" (inappropriately) all the time just to get a laugh out of her. Hmmm, still only 8 people dead per million! That data product seems a bit stodgy.. Wouldn't you say, dear?

 

[SweetSue92]

Sue I find your opinions entertaining but given your record on this board for lying I am hardly going to waste my time investigating yur dodgy data. You have no credibility here.

We already know you're anti-science, Tommy. I don't lie here.

Did you get your booster, by the way? The UK won't approve a fourth, I'm guessing. Good thing, since your immune system probably suffered enough hits.

 

[SweetSue92]

Unlike the hundreds of thousands who died needlessly because they refused a safe, free, available and effective vaccine, I'm still alive...so yeah, it worked out great.

I guess your days of "not caring" are gone? Or are you going to follow me around for another hour or so trying to get my attention?

Well you were right on one count. It was free.

You couldn't have paid me a million dollars to get even one.

Increasingly, I'm looking more and more correct. I have two autoimmune, and when I'm not in remission, they really suck. I honestly hope the shots do not give people a bunch of AU diseases. We are going to be a miserable billion people if they do.

But how could we know, really? There was no long-term data.

 

[themirrorthief]

Question Time showed that you canât counter anti-vax myths with cold reason alone | Sonia Sodha

Changing minds is more complicated than simply exposing poor arguments

www.theguardian.com

The main British political discussion show invited in an audience of anti vaxxers to discuss their idiocy with a panel of experts. to limited success.

How do you react when someone politely but firmly tells you that you’re talking nonsense about something that’s important to you? Do you gracefully and immediately give way to their greater expertise? Or do you double down?

Most of us are in the latter camp. Voicing our beliefs tends to solidify them. We may like to think of ourselves as rational creatures, constantly assessing the world for new information that might change our minds, but this is not how our brains work. Explaining to someone that their belief is flat-out wrong is not a good way of getting them to drop it. And research shows that the process of “myth-busting” – setting out a common false statement, then explaining why it is wrong – backfires because it counterintuitively reinforces and helps spread the myths.

But it is impossible to counter emotion with facts and the exercise ,whils exposing the idiocy of the anti vaxxers, will probably not have convinced many. We could have told them cahead of the show. Five years of exposing trumps villiany has not dented his cults belief in him.

And focussing on the ridiculous "stop the steal" nonsense underlines this. Despite zero evidence there are still folk who think that the election was stolen. When it gets to the point that people do not need any evidence i n order to believe something touted by a proven liar then facts and science are not going to penetrate.

It leaves society pretty much at the mercy of uninformed people who think that a half hour rummaging aarund the net makes then PHDs in any subject under the sun.

These people breed, they vote and they bring up chilfren. We should be scared.

stop worrying about what others are doing if youve had the shot relax

 

[Captain Caveman]

Question Time showed that you canât counter anti-vax myths with cold reason alone | Sonia Sodha

Changing minds is more complicated than simply exposing poor arguments

www.theguardian.com

The main British political discussion show invited in an audience of anti vaxxers to discuss their idiocy with a panel of experts. to limited success.

How do you react when someone politely but firmly tells you that you’re talking nonsense about something that’s important to you? Do you gracefully and immediately give way to their greater expertise? Or do you double down?

Most of us are in the latter camp. Voicing our beliefs tends to solidify them. We may like to think of ourselves as rational creatures, constantly assessing the world for new information that might change our minds, but this is not how our brains work. Explaining to someone that their belief is flat-out wrong is not a good way of getting them to drop it. And research shows that the process of “myth-busting” – setting out a common false statement, then explaining why it is wrong – backfires because it counterintuitively reinforces and helps spread the myths.

But it is impossible to counter emotion with facts and the exercise ,whils exposing the idiocy of the anti vaxxers, will probably not have convinced many. We could have told them cahead of the show. Five years of exposing trumps villiany has not dented his cults belief in him.

And focussing on the ridiculous "stop the steal" nonsense underlines this. Despite zero evidence there are still folk who think that the election was stolen. When it gets to the point that people do not need any evidence i n order to believe something touted by a proven liar then facts and science are not going to penetrate.

It leaves society pretty much at the mercy of uninformed people who think that a half hour rummaging aarund the net makes then PHDs in any subject under the sun.

These people breed, they vote and they bring up chilfren. We should be scared.

Please do try to be honest. Where are you with your tetanus vaccine.

 

[Brick Gold]

Admitting you are wrong in front of an audience after being misinformed is a tough move, especially for someone trying to win a position of peoples trust and get votes. Thats why politicians are so shifty and change the subject when an argument arises, instead of concluding the error and ending the argument they switch over and start a new one and this happens so much that its unbearable to watch. Big reason why I dont pay attention to politics, it doesnt go anywhere, doesnt mean anything and when they actually do win voters trust with strong promises they dont fulfill them. Its more like a display of soap opera drama than anything. If you love drama youd love politics, so, not for me. The more passionate man that says the right things will win but seriously its gonna be exactly the same as the last guy 95% of the time.

 

[candycorn]

There are no anti vax "experts." The specimen doesnt exist. Think about it .

10 years ago, the "anti jab" people were seen as leftist lunatics. Now...because of right wing disinformation...they are "patriots".

 

[candycorn]

Well you were right on one count. It was free.

You couldn't have paid me a million dollars to get even one.

Increasingly, I'm looking more and more correct. I have two autoimmune, and when I'm not in remission, they really suck. I honestly hope the shots do not give people a bunch of AU diseases. We are going to be a miserable billion people if they do.

But how could we know, really? There was no long-term data.

Increasingly, you're looking more and more desperate to matter to someone.

 

[Grumblenuts]

10 years ago, the "anti jab" people were seen as leftist lunatics. Now...because of right wing disinformation...they are "patriots".

RFK, jr., sure. But, ah hell, I'm terrible with names.. that British guy (doctor?) and that crazy American woman -- they were lefties?

 

[Tommy Tainant]

Admitting you are wrong in front of an audience after being misinformed is a tough move, especially for someone trying to win a position of peoples trust and get votes. Thats why politicians are so shifty and change the subject when an argument arises, instead of concluding the error and ending the argument they switch over and start a new one and this happens so much that its unbearable to watch. Big reason why I dont pay attention to politics, it doesnt go anywhere, doesnt mean anything and when they actually do win voters trust with strong promises they dont fulfill them. Its more like a display of soap opera drama than anything. If you love drama youd love politics, so, not for me. The more passionate man that says the right things will win but seriously its gonna be exactly the same as the last guy 95% of the time.

It really shouldnt be a political issue like many other things.

 

[Brick Gold]

It really shouldnt be a political issue like many other things.

Its about media, not politics, I must admit my mistake.

 

[MaryL]

Question Time showed that you canât counter anti-vax myths with cold reason alone | Sonia Sodha

Changing minds is more complicated than simply exposing poor arguments

www.theguardian.com

The main British political discussion show invited in an audience of anti vaxxers to discuss their idiocy with a panel of experts. to limited success.

How do you react when someone politely but firmly tells you that you’re talking nonsense about something that’s important to you? Do you gracefully and immediately give way to their greater expertise? Or do you double down?

Most of us are in the latter camp. Voicing our beliefs tends to solidify them. We may like to think of ourselves as rational creatures, constantly assessing the world for new information that might change our minds, but this is not how our brains work. Explaining to someone that their belief is flat-out wrong is not a good way of getting them to drop it. And research shows that the process of “myth-busting” – setting out a common false statement, then explaining why it is wrong – backfires because it counterintuitively reinforces and helps spread the myths.

But it is impossible to counter emotion with facts and the exercise ,whils exposing the idiocy of the anti vaxxers, will probably not have convinced many. We could have told them cahead of the show. Five years of exposing trumps villiany has not dented his cults belief in him.

And focussing on the ridiculous "stop the steal" nonsense underlines this. Despite zero evidence there are still folk who think that the election was stolen. When it gets to the point that people do not need any evidence i n order to believe something touted by a proven liar then facts and science are not going to penetrate.

It leaves society pretty much at the mercy of uninformed people who think that a half hour rummaging aarund the net makes then PHDs in any subject under the sun.

These people breed, they vote and they bring up chilfren. We should be scared.

Meanwhile back on earth: UMM, the covid vaccine is nearly useless. Truly, I got covid from a vaxed relative. So, as far as mandates go, there might be merit to it if the vaccine actually fucking WORKED.

 

[SweetSue92]

Tommy, pertinent to the chart I showed you earlier where people who are double vaxxed are getting MORE INFECTIONS. Here, on page 23, the UK surveillance report tells you why. Antibodies after double vaccination are LOWER? Oh yes and as Israel found out, lower after boosters too.

A disaster.

waning of the N antibody response over time and (iii) recent observations from UK Health Security Agency (UKHSA) surveillance data that N antibody levels appear to be lower in individuals who acquire infection following 2 doses of vaccination.

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/1027511/Vaccine-surveillance-report-week-42.pdf

 

[Deplorable Yankee]

Question Time showed that you canât counter anti-vax myths with cold reason alone | Sonia Sodha

Changing minds is more complicated than simply exposing poor arguments

www.theguardian.com

The main British political discussion show invited in an audience of anti vaxxers to discuss their idiocy with a panel of experts. to limited success.

How do you react when someone politely but firmly tells you that you’re talking nonsense about something that’s important to you? Do you gracefully and immediately give way to their greater expertise? Or do you double down?

Most of us are in the latter camp. Voicing our beliefs tends to solidify them. We may like to think of ourselves as rational creatures, constantly assessing the world for new information that might change our minds, but this is not how our brains work. Explaining to someone that their belief is flat-out wrong is not a good way of getting them to drop it. And research shows that the process of “myth-busting” – setting out a common false statement, then explaining why it is wrong – backfires because it counterintuitively reinforces and helps spread the myths.

But it is impossible to counter emotion with facts and the exercise ,whils exposing the idiocy of the anti vaxxers, will probably not have convinced many. We could have told them cahead of the show. Five years of exposing trumps villiany has not dented his cults belief in him.

And focussing on the ridiculous "stop the steal" nonsense underlines this. Despite zero evidence there are still folk who think that the election was stolen. When it gets to the point that people do not need any evidence i n order to believe something touted by a proven liar then facts and science are not going to penetrate.

It leaves society pretty much at the mercy of uninformed people who think that a half hour rummaging aarund the net makes then PHDs in any subject under the sun.

These people breed, they vote and they bring up chilfren. We should be scared.

 

[SweetSue92]

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Yep. It's like a strung out drug addict chasing a high or something--you get a temporary boost of protection (AFTER the two week window of being immune compromised right after the shot) but after about three months of protection, are left worse off than if you had never had the shots.

You cannot tell me nurses, doctors etc are not seeing this in clinics and hospitals. You know they are. When they start talking--soon--it's going to be a tsunami.

 

[fncceo]

The main British political discussion show invited in an audience of anti vaxxers to discuss their idiocy

Calling people idiots is typically a bad way to change their minds.

It's the tactic of someone without a case or argument.

 

[Deplorable Yankee]

Yep. It's like a strung out drug addict chasing a high or something--you get a temporary boost of protection

I don't think anyone's even sure of that ....besides globo homo incs useful progressive idiots

Like cattle

 

[SweetSue92]

I don't think anyone's even sure of that ....besides globo homo incs useful progressive idiots

Like cattle

After all I've read, I feel pretty certain as a total layperson saying that. Once you get the shot, you run the risk of immediately getting all the side effects, going from a sore arm to being really sick. Then you have a period of about two weeks where you are basically immuno-compromised. No small number of people get Covid in this time. In the US this doesn't "count" against the vaccine because the vaccine hasn't "kicked in yet". Ain't that something?

Then it does seem to offer a short window of protection against severe disease only, not transmission or contracting the disease. BUT, once that wears off, what are you left with? We don't know. Even what we DO know would have made the shots not worth it for a lot of people. Myocarditis, menstrual problems, blood clots. Don't stop transmission, short window of protection.

All people like Tommy Tainant and candycorn have left at this point is to call names or play fast and loose with vaccine data, like going back to Jan 2021 to say how well they worked. Either they're complete idiots or they know, and are lying. No other choices.

 

[Grumblenuts]

Average Rate of COVID Death Today -- Feb 6, 2022:

U.S. 7-day average deaths per day -- 2,576
/ population (330 million) -- 7.81 per million
/ days (7) -- 1.12 per million per day

U.K. 7-day average deaths per day -- 223
/ population (67.2 million) -- 3.32 per million
/ days (7) -- 0.474 per million per day

ISRAEL 7-day average deaths per day -- 65
/ population (8.87 million) -- 7.33 per million
/ days (7) -- 1.18 per million per day

Horrible tragedy going on in Israel there resulting in slightly more death than in the U.S.A.
Ergo: At worst, a whopping tad more than 1 death per million people per day.
During a worldwide pandemic.
Wowza. Holy crap! STOP the presses! Obviously the vaccines aren't working!